For the same reason, there is no courage, fortitude, or honor in heaven. Perhaps God feels these are worthwhile virtues. It's clear that these virtues could not exist without suffering.Originally Posted by G L Wilson
Has anyone here read "The Worm Orouboros" by E.R. Edison? It's one of the great pre-Tolkien fantay novels, and speaks directly to the question of whether life is really improved by eliminating suffering (the answer in the novel is "no".).
News from nowhere.
So you are saying that the clocks in heaven don't have numerals 1-12 but rather minus 0 through "everlasting"...haha...okay. I can hear God now, "Okay, St. Peter, you can't clock in and you can't clock out but keep your eye on this clock because you only have "forever" to finish your job of gatekeeper, entering names into the Book of Life as they enter through the pearly gates". Trust me on this one...there are no clocks in heaven.
I have come to terms with the future. From this day onward I will walk easy on the earth. Plant trees. Kill no living things. Live in harmony with all creatures. I will restore the earth where I am. Use no more of its resources than I need. And listen, listen to what it is telling me.~ M.J. Slim Hooey
There is light, I assume. But it casts no shadow, I assume.
I'm not saying that at all. I have no idea how heaven works. I'm asking you to explain your concept of it. But 'Trust me on this one...'? That's what your proposition comes down to?
Okay - forget that one. Have a shot at the other question.
Originally Posted by blithe spirit
God allowed evil via satan before the fall of Adam/man in order to give man an opportunity to exert his free will and choose between good and evil. Once Adam chose evil then evil remained and God continues to sometimes allow it for reasons mentioned in posts 2 and 4
Which would suggest that, given God's allowance, Satan can create too. So the Universe is not God's exclusive creation. Satan can claim bits of it.
[QUOTE=thebagman;1051388
I'm not trying to be a smartass (maybe I am). I went to the exhibition yesterday, I needed something to take my mind off things. The last time I went there it was on Gibran (I think it was him), I was expecting something pleasant and they have a whole bunch of pictures of dead people. Which was nice.
An otherwise attractive girl had her nose and ears cut off for running away from an abusive husband. A HIV and drug abusers final moments of life. A mass of bodies from and earthquake, bodies of people executed in mexico for stealing drugs.
If God has a great plan for all of us I would very much like to know what it is. Otherwise I'm not really sure I want to have any part of it. A plan that we as human beings will never be able to grasp by a deity that may or may not exist sounds like a long shot to me.
Thank you blithe spirit for your comments though, that was actually quite nice. Togre, you're an idiot. I've have managed to get all that is good about Christianity followed by all that is bad in one thread.[/QUOTE]
I actually understand where you are coming from. When you see such explicit and graphic images of suffering, it is hard to even conceive that there is a God. I am a believer, but I often lose faith. All the religious dogma and philosophy cannot explain this sort of thing. The Bible, church, and the notion that if you hang on long enough you will be rewarded. But how can you believe that a place of peace exists, when you see such a stark reality?
Thank you. Weird. However, he must have been talking about sources for sick humor or at least comedians looking for sources for their material by making light of bad situations...but that doesn't mean there is no humor in heaven. Take for instance the simplest example: Take the joke, "Why did the chicken cross the road...to get to the other side". Okay, that used to be funny when we heard it the first time...but there's no source of sorrow involved.
I have come to terms with the future. From this day onward I will walk easy on the earth. Plant trees. Kill no living things. Live in harmony with all creatures. I will restore the earth where I am. Use no more of its resources than I need. And listen, listen to what it is telling me.~ M.J. Slim Hooey
i would say that Satan is not given power to create, but rather to present choices. God allows freewill, He allowed a number of His angels to leave Him and follow Satan. This presentation of choice is not a creation of Satan's, but rather the usage of freewill. freewill still being created by God alone. does that make sense? i would consider the implications before intellectually granting Satan the power to create. it is a privilege which i strongly believe he does not hold. Satan is often called the prince, ruler, and even "god of this world" in Scripture. he is not without power, but i find no proof that he has ability to create. to create is to form something out of nothing. if satan has ever done this, i am unaware. possibly mistaken, but unaware.
"The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a Heav’n of Hell, a Hell of Heav’n"
So God must have created the mechanisms and the physiological predispositions that give us infantile leukaemia.
it sounds uncaring and callous, but i must say yes, i do believe that He did. if one holds that all was created by God, then from where else would those mechanisms and predispositions come? and IF they were in fact created by Satan, why would he not document this in some way?
that brings up a new idea. if Satan is the archnemesis of God, and God has the Bible as the history of His involvement with the world... does Satan have an inspired/written documentation of his works?
"The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a Heav’n of Hell, a Hell of Heav’n"
Just because Man takes some fertilizer that God created and turns it into a bomb to kill innocent children does not make God the creator of evil and does not make man a partial creator of the universe. Same with Satan.
Edit: And just because God created healthy cells that satan used and then caused the action of attacking those cells does not make God the creator of leukemia
Last edited by blithe spirit; 07-12-2011 at 12:44 PM.
I have come to terms with the future. From this day onward I will walk easy on the earth. Plant trees. Kill no living things. Live in harmony with all creatures. I will restore the earth where I am. Use no more of its resources than I need. And listen, listen to what it is telling me.~ M.J. Slim Hooey
Good point. He's the master of deception and manipulation of what's already been created as good.
I have come to terms with the future. From this day onward I will walk easy on the earth. Plant trees. Kill no living things. Live in harmony with all creatures. I will restore the earth where I am. Use no more of its resources than I need. And listen, listen to what it is telling me.~ M.J. Slim Hooey
No one die who once created. death is like a syrup who transit one life from one place to another. each n everything in the universe and on earth is not bychance or by accident. if someone says like above God created human for his fun than he should think he was nothing before. we come from nothingness to existance. and ahead there is never ending story.
i saw, who beleive in oneness of God ,there are two extremist groups. one who claim everything is in the God hands, 2nd says everything is human's hand. if we consider ist one than there is a big question than what is the reason for reward and punishment. if everything God wrote already than why people go in hell or heaven. if we agree to 2nd group than no one can deny proud. and i beleive the main hindrance towards God is ur own proud. i learnt a beautful thing that reality exist in the middle, moderate and balanced way.
Blithe,
If your god is omniscient and omnipotent then this does make it the creator of evil. At the bottom of page three of this thread I explained why this is so.
Your god, if it is omniscient, created Satan knowing with absolute certainty every deception and manipulation he would perpetrate. When he created Satan, he thus made the conscious choice that all of those deceptions and manipulations would come about. Your god knew it, he chose it, and clearly, your god is responsible for all of the consequences flowing from this fully conscious decision.
HOLY crap...Just because Man takes some fertilizer that God created and turns it into a bomb to kill innocent children does not make God the creator of evil and does not make man a partial creator of the universe. Same with Satan.
Edit: And just because God created healthy cells that satan used and then caused the action of attacking those cells does not make God the creator of leukemia
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