Why do many women find 'the male body' ugly?

[stlukesguild]

Mr. Neely... methinks thou doth protest too much. A hitherto unknown feminine side... or at least a purely "artistic" admiration of the the male nude...?



I'll stick with the aesthetic superiority of the female form... even within the context of the purely "artistic":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSHZY_JCV0U

[Vonny]

I'm going to try not to personalize anything here.

There's something about the way that some of you write.

I had assumed all of my life that I simply wasn't very attracted to men. For a time I was with one, but I'm not sure why.

Brad Pitt has never done a thing for me. My brother likes him, but I don't get it. Now I realize that I don't like him because he's dull and stupid, and not very good looking either. And he's not natural.

And then I came here, and something descended on me.

I'm not a person who would go looking for anything. I wouldn't go near anything erotic and I'm sure it would be a turn off, so it's nothing to do with that.

But what I found here, mostly, is the writing - the way it's unselfconscious and spontaneous, very smooth - and then it's always changing, so that I'm wondering what is that person? Once in a while it seems like a child, but too intelligent and sophisticated to be a child. Other times I know it's a man. At the same time there's a common thread that runs through it. And then wow, is it smart. It's interesting.

There's subtleties and nuances. Oh, and the humor that seems unintentional, the "(sorry girls)."

I think also it's a British thing that I'm picking up.

I'm sure I'd have never gotten this affect from anything published and edited and prepared. It's because it's extemporaneous. Is that the right word? It's just coming out.

(I feel that I see Who the person really is. It's very strange, when it's the internet, and I know that I don't know the person. That is what is so disturbing about this, and I just realized it. I know these people better than I do people that I know. And the people I know, such as neighbors, I don't care to know.)

For a long time I was just going around reading bits here and there, not giving it much thought, other than being captivated, and then I realized there's a physical component to it.

I'm sure I'd never be attracted to just a body or body part. The personality has to come first... and I never saw a personality before.

But now I think a few males have it all over the females, in all departments. Women don't have this sexy thing.


Regarding my situation. We do love Idaho because at least here we can escape the people, some of the time. In San Francisco where everyone is holding hands, there are too many people, and I could never live in a big city. Climate change, though - The rain is killing us, and there's not much to do in the cold rain. The lakes are too high for boating, which I find satisfying actually, to know that the arrogant Big Boat people are missing a lot of their season.

And I do read and love literature -- The problem I have is a terrible stress condition, and when it flares up, I can't concentrate too well.

And No, I'm not trying to pick up on anyone here!

Hmm, I'm thinking that George Clooney, even though he's old, and I've seen him in only a couple of movies, has it much more than Brad Pitt or the younger ones. But even Clooney, I've never given much thought to. I agree with his opinions, though.

[stlukesguild]

But what I found here, mostly, is the writing - the way it's unselfconscious and spontaneous, very smooth - and then it's always changing, so that I'm wondering what is that person? Once in a while it seems like a child, but too intelligent and sophisticated to be a child. Other times I know it's a man. At the same time there's a common thread that runs through it. And then wow, is it smart. It's interesting...

I think also it's a British thing that I'm picking up.

I'm sure I'd have never gotten this affect from anything published and edited and prepared. It's because it's extemporaneous. Is that the right word? It's just coming out.

Vonny... be aware that art is an illusion... and writing... even if it only be on an internet forum... is a form of art. It is dangerous to assume that the fluidity... the mastery of language... the ease and the apparent "naturalism" paint a true portrait of the individual behind the words. Certainly, many of us here are quite likely far less witty and skillful with the spoken word than with the written word. The written word affords one the time to think and make choices. There is the old cliche that one should write as one speaks (or thinks), but do we really want writing laden with "ummms" and "hmmms" and "uhhhhs"? One of the values of literature is that it teaches the individual the power of words... the manner in which words can influence our thinking... or even manipulate us.

I remember immediately being struck by the power of words to manipulate while reading Shakespeare's Julius Caesar. Caesar has been murdered and Brutus comes before the massed crowds to argue his case:

Romans, countrymen, and lovers! hear me for my
cause, and be silent, that you may hear: believe me
for mine honour, and have respect to mine honour, that
you may believe: censure me in your wisdom, and
awake your senses, that you may the better judge.
If there be any in this assembly, any dear friend of
Caesar's, to him I say, that Brutus' love to Caesar
was no less than his. If then that friend demand
why Brutus rose against Caesar, this is my answer:
--Not that I loved Caesar less, but that I loved
Rome more. Had you rather Caesar were living and
die all slaves, than that Caesar were dead, to live
all free men? As Caesar loved me, I weep for him;
as he was fortunate, I rejoice at it; as he was
valiant, I honour him: but, as he was ambitious, I
slew him. There is tears for his love; joy for his
fortune; honour for his valour; and death for his
ambition. Who is here so base that would be a
bondman? If any, speak; for him have I offended.
Who is here so rude that would not be a Roman? If
any, speak; for him have I offended. Who is here so
vile that will not love his country? If any, speak;
for him have I offended. I pause for a reply.

There is an awkwardness to his introduction... and to his use of repetition:

hear me for my
cause, and be silent, that you may hear:

believe me
for mine honour, and have respect to mine honour, that
you may believe:

The words don't flow fluidly... but they do draw attention to what comes across as Brutus pleading that you hear and believe that he is honorable...

And then Mark Antony steps before the crowd... and such a speech:

Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;
I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;
So let it be with Caesar. The noble Brutus
Hath told you Caesar was ambitious:
If it were so, it was a grievous fault,
And grievously hath Caesar answer'd it.
Here, under leave of Brutus and the rest--
For Brutus is an honourable man;
So are they all, all honourable men--
Come I to speak in Caesar's funeral.
He was my friend, faithful and just to me:
But Brutus says he was ambitious;
And Brutus is an honourable man.
He hath brought many captives home to Rome
Whose ransoms did the general coffers fill:
Did this in Caesar seem ambitious?
When that the poor have cried, Caesar hath wept:
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff:
Yet Brutus says he was ambitious;
And Brutus is an honourable man.
You all did see that on the Lupercal
I thrice presented him a kingly crown,
Which he did thrice refuse: was this ambition?
Yet Brutus says he was ambitious;
And, sure, he is an honourable man.
I speak not to disprove what Brutus spoke,
But here I am to speak what I do know.
You all did love him once, not without cause:
What cause withholds you then, to mourn for him?
O judgment! thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason. Bear with me;
My heart is in the coffin there with Caesar,
And I must pause till it come back to me.

How much more poetic that invitation to listen: "Friends, Romans, Countrymen; Lend me your ears..."

And then notice how Shakespeare allows Antony to completely undermine Brutus' pleas that the citizens recognize that he was only acting honorably:

"But Brutus is an honorable man"...

repeated again and again... in a clearly sarcastic tone.

The point? I am merely suggesting that it is always dangerous to confuse the artist with the art... even if the art... in this case... is but a bit of verbal repartee... dialog... or discussion on a literature site. I don't say this to scare you away. I doubt there are any stalkers at Lit Net... and the occasional "trolls" seem few and far between. Like you, I do recognize there are any number of posters who who are quite intelligent and talented with the written word. Some are seemingly fluid and natural. But remember Alexander Pope's lines from his An Essay on Criticism:

True Ease in Writing comes from Art, not Chance,
As those move easiest who have learn'd to dance.

Fluidity with words and language comes from a degree of experience and effort. I, myself, am first and foremost a visual artist... a painter. Whatever ability I have as a painter was developed primarily as the result of painting. Those who have a skill with the written word have quite likely developed this through the repeated process of reading and writing.

Much as I like British literature and the English sense of humor, I don't think you can wholly attribute whatever mastery with words that you sense here to something British. A good many of the best writers here are not British, but American, Canadian, Australian... or even of a culture where English was not their first language.

Anyway... a belated welcome to LitNet.

[Vonny]

Thank you for the welcome Stluke!

I will carefully read all that you wrote there from Shakespeare. I would love to read and understand Shakespeare.

I understand what you're saying. I said somewhere on this thread that I'm naive. Actually, I'm not. It's funny because I am, and I'm not. I'm not easily manipulated, and I don't fall prey.

The people that I'm talking about above, I'm sure about. They are what they seem. I have a sense about these things. They wouldn't private message me. And if some other creepy person did that to me, it would only happen once.

The British aspect was only speculative, on my part. I really don't know about that. I only know that these kind of men aren't in Idaho.

Thank you for that, I appreciate it!

Now that I think about it more, I'm not naive. I just haven't experienced a "bohemian" lifestyle.

[Emil Miller]

Mr. Neely... methinks thou doth protest too much. A hitherto unknown feminine side... or at least a purely "artistic" admiration of the the male nude...?

Neely, is that you? I don't mean the one on the pedestal but the one wearing the glasses. Now if you carry on with the Charles Atlas course, you might well find women putting you on a pedestal but don't go around kicking sand in peoples' faces.

[Bluehound]

Men's bodies are not ugly and I don't believe most women think they are.
We are just not in the habit of saying out loud what we are thinking about men, in the same way that you would about a beautiful woman.
But look at the legs on that above me...and the statues not bad

There is another angle to this, people find it hard to accept someone who is both beautiful and smart.
Maybe men choose to only be seen as the later.
There is nothing wrong with the body of "The thinker" but we don't notice it because we are looking at his brains...metaphorically at least

[LitNetIsGreat]

Mr. Neely... methinks thou doth protest too much. A hitherto unknown feminine side... or at least a purely "artistic" admiration of the the male nude...?

Ha, ha. I hope you are not questioning my large hetrosexual prowess?

Neely, is that you? I don't mean the one on the pedestal but the one wearing the glasses. Now if you carry on with the Charles Atlas course, you might well find women putting you on a pedestal but don't go around kicking sand in peoples' faces.

I think you were closer with your first thought, though I've never been put on a pedestal to my knowledge. I'm still waiting for the tiger pants but at least I've got my cycling shorts and Mrs Neely loves to hate those. I once joined her for ten minutes wearing them in a children's play group and you could see the colour drip from her face - she thought I was going to get arrested.

There is another angle to this, people find it hard to accept someone who is both beautiful and smart.
Maybe men choose to only be seen as the later.

I'm not sure what you mean about that. Up student street there are loads and loads of really good looking smart young women, so many in fact that I have often wondered if intelligence and good looks come together.

[Paulclem]

Neely - were the shorts the ones with the padded backside that look like they've been well filled with something horrible?

[stlukesguild]

From Neely's description of the color draining from Mrs. Neely's face and her fear of police action I got the impression rather that they were padded on the front side.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Ha, yes they are the ones padded on the backside and extremely tight on the front.

[Emil Miller]

Ha, yes they are the ones padded on the backside and extremely tight on the front.

I'm beginning to warm to the Original Post's premise, especially in the light of something like this.

[Vonny]

I'm not sure what's been going on with me lately! I'm normally a reserved person. ...But I've had had dissociation for most of my life. It was chronic and extreme when I was a child; then I thought I'd mostly overcome it as an adult, but now I'm seeing recurrences.

I think that I now sometimes slip into a slightly altered consciousness. When I'm writing here, I do always know what I'm doing, but it's as though some part of me is absent or altered. Then later, for a while, I understand better what I did, and I find it very uncomfortable, or mortifying, to go back and read what I wrote, so mostly I haven't returned to it much. Then after a few minutes or hours, my behavior has repeated.

I mean, not everything I've written on the forum fits this category, just some.

Stluke, what you did startled me back into my senses.

(No reply necessary.)

Oh my gosh, Emil, and I thought I'm off topic! Just saw that after making this post.

But what I found here, mostly, is the writing - the way it's unselfconscious and spontaneous, very smooth - and then it's always changing, so that I'm wondering what is that person? Once in a while it seems like a child, but too intelligent and sophisticated to be a child. Other times I know it's a man. At the same time there's a common thread that runs through it. And then wow, is it smart. It's interesting...

I think also it's a British thing that I'm picking up.

I'm sure I'd have never gotten this affect from anything published and edited and prepared. It's because it's extemporaneous. Is that the right word? It's just coming out.

Vonny... be aware that art is an illusion... and writing... even if it only be on an internet forum... is a form of art. It is dangerous to assume that the fluidity... the mastery of language... the ease and the apparent "naturalism" paint a true portrait of the individual behind the words. Certainly, many of us here are quite likely far less witty and skillful with the spoken word than with the written word. The written word affords one the time to think and make choices. There is the old cliche that one should write as one speaks (or thinks), but do we really want writing laden with "ummms" and "hmmms" and "uhhhhs"? One of the values of literature is that it teaches the individual the power of words... the manner in which words can influence our thinking... or even manipulate us.

I remember immediately being struck by the power of words to manipulate while reading Shakespeare's Julius Caesar. Caesar has been murdered and Brutus comes before the massed crowds to argue his case:

Romans, countrymen, and lovers! hear me for my
cause, and be silent, that you may hear: believe me
for mine honour, and have respect to mine honour, that
you may believe: censure me in your wisdom, and
awake your senses, that you may the better judge.
If there be any in this assembly, any dear friend of
Caesar's, to him I say, that Brutus' love to Caesar
was no less than his. If then that friend demand
why Brutus rose against Caesar, this is my answer:
--Not that I loved Caesar less, but that I loved
Rome more. Had you rather Caesar were living and
die all slaves, than that Caesar were dead, to live
all free men? As Caesar loved me, I weep for him;
as he was fortunate, I rejoice at it; as he was
valiant, I honour him: but, as he was ambitious, I
slew him. There is tears for his love; joy for his
fortune; honour for his valour; and death for his
ambition. Who is here so base that would be a
bondman? If any, speak; for him have I offended.
Who is here so rude that would not be a Roman? If
any, speak; for him have I offended. Who is here so
vile that will not love his country? If any, speak;
for him have I offended. I pause for a reply.

There is an awkwardness to his introduction... and to his use of repetition:

hear me for my
cause, and be silent, that you may hear:

believe me
for mine honour, and have respect to mine honour, that
you may believe:

The words don't flow fluidly... but they do draw attention to what comes across as Brutus pleading that you hear and believe that he is honorable...

And then Mark Antony steps before the crowd... and such a speech:

Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;
I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;
So let it be with Caesar. The noble Brutus
Hath told you Caesar was ambitious:
If it were so, it was a grievous fault,
And grievously hath Caesar answer'd it.
Here, under leave of Brutus and the rest--
For Brutus is an honourable man;
So are they all, all honourable men--
Come I to speak in Caesar's funeral.
He was my friend, faithful and just to me:
But Brutus says he was ambitious;
And Brutus is an honourable man.
He hath brought many captives home to Rome
Whose ransoms did the general coffers fill:
Did this in Caesar seem ambitious?
When that the poor have cried, Caesar hath wept:
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff:
Yet Brutus says he was ambitious;
And Brutus is an honourable man.
You all did see that on the Lupercal
I thrice presented him a kingly crown,
Which he did thrice refuse: was this ambition?
Yet Brutus says he was ambitious;
And, sure, he is an honourable man.
I speak not to disprove what Brutus spoke,
But here I am to speak what I do know.
You all did love him once, not without cause:
What cause withholds you then, to mourn for him?
O judgment! thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason. Bear with me;
My heart is in the coffin there with Caesar,
And I must pause till it come back to me.

How much more poetic that invitation to listen: "Friends, Romans, Countrymen; Lend me your ears..."

And then notice how Shakespeare allows Antony to completely undermine Brutus' pleas that the citizens recognize that he was only acting honorably:

"But Brutus is an honorable man"...

repeated again and again... in a clearly sarcastic tone.

The point? I am merely suggesting that it is always dangerous to confuse the artist with the art... even if the art... in this case... is but a bit of verbal repartee... dialog... or discussion on a literature site. I don't say this to scare you away. I doubt there are any stalkers at Lit Net... and the occasional "trolls" seem few and far between. Like you, I do recognize there are any number of posters who who are quite intelligent and talented with the written word. Some are seemingly fluid and natural. But remember Alexander Pope's lines from his An Essay on Criticism:

True Ease in Writing comes from Art, not Chance,
As those move easiest who have learn'd to dance.

Fluidity with words and language comes from a degree of experience and effort. I, myself, am first and foremost a visual artist... a painter. Whatever ability I have as a painter was developed primarily as the result of painting. Those who have a skill with the written word have quite likely developed this through the repeated process of reading and writing.

Much as I like British literature and the English sense of humor, I don't think you can wholly attribute whatever mastery with words that you sense here to something British. A good many of the best writers here are not British, but American, Canadian, Australian... or even of a culture where English was not their first language.

Anyway... a belated welcome to LitNet.

My oldest brother's name is David. He's a critical thinker. He's a good writer, but being an engineer he writes technically.

[Bluehound]

"There is another angle to this, people find it hard to accept someone who is both beautiful and smart.
Maybe men choose to only be seen as the later." -me

"I'm not sure what you mean about that. Up student street there are loads and loads of really good looking smart young women, so many in fact that I have often wondered if intelligence and good looks come together." - Neely

I didn't say you cant be smart and pretty, just that people tend to expect you to be one or the other Clark Kent/Superman ?

Hehe and we are talking about good looking women again !
As well as looking at one on a bike, wow she is a hotty.

Can anyone find pics of nearly naked men who are considered intelligent ?

[Emil Miller]

"There is another angle to this, people find it hard to accept someone who is both beautiful and smart.
Maybe men choose to only be seen as the later." -me

"I'm not sure what you mean about that. Up student street there are loads and loads of really good looking smart young women, so many in fact that I have often wondered if intelligence and good looks come together." - Neely

I didn't say you cant be smart and pretty, just that people tend to expect you to be one or the other Clark Kent/Superman ?

Hehe and we are talking about good looking women again !
As well as looking at one on a bike, wow she is a hotty.

Can anyone find pics of nearly naked men who are considered intelligent ?

He doestn't strike me as looking particularly intelligent but how about this one?

[LitNetIsGreat]

Hehe and we are talking about good looking women again !

It is one of our favourite subjects here on Litnet.

I love the photo of the lady on the bike (not sure about the chap?) but as a man of experience that G-string she is wearing is not suitable clothing from long distance rides. Paul will back me up on that one.