May / Historical Fiction Reading: Wolf Hall

[Brock]

Got my copy today. I will also be starting it tonight.

[dfloyd]

How can a book which is totally history with all characters being historical characters, have spoilers. This is more of a history lesson written from a different viewpoint than a novel. If you were reading a book about Lincoln, would you consider discussing his assassination a spoiler? Anyone with a shred of English history of the time of Henry VIII knows the wives he had executed along with his two chancellors: Thomas More and Thomas Cromwell.

Again, this is not a historical novel ala Daphne Dumaurier, but history from a viewpoint. Mantel spent hour upon hour researching her book so that when she presents a conversation which takes place on a certain day, the reader can be assured that the people having the dialogue could actually have been together at the time the author picks.

[Dark Muse]

How can a book which is totally history with all characters being historical characters, have spoilers. This is more of a history lesson written from a different viewpoint than a novel. If you were reading a book about Lincoln, would you consider discussing his assassination a spoiler? Anyone with a shred of English history of the time of Henry VIII knows the wives he had executed along with his two chancellors: Thomas More and Thomas Cromwell.

Again, this is not a historical novel ala Daphne Dumaurier, but history from a viewpoint. Mantel spent hour upon hour researching her book so that when she presents a conversation which takes place on a certain day, the reader can be assured that the people having the dialogue could actually have been together at the time the author picks.

LOL I had the same thought. In reading this book, if you know anything of the histrocial background, than nothing which happens in the book can really surprsie you. I cannot imagine that this book could really have spoilers unless someone really is not familair with the history behind the book.

[Paulclem]

I disagree about it being a history lesson from a different viewpoint. The histroy is merely the context, the setting. The rest is surely fiction - the dialogue, the fleshed in parts of the autobiography, the reflections of Cromwell, the tone of the interactions.

I think a little knowledge would help in reading the book though.

[Dark Muse]

I disagree about it being a history lesson from a different viewpoint. The histroy is merely the context, the setting. The rest is surely fiction - the dialogue, the fleshed in parts of the autobiography, the reflections of Cromwell, the tone of the interactions.

I think a little knowledge would help in reading the book though.

Yes I think most of what we see of Cromwell's family life, and his interactions with various characters within the book, while there may be some things of which we may know from certain historical evidence, a lot I think is speculation and the authors own vision of the character. The events and some of the conversations, meetings, may be known fact, but I do not think we can altogether know their personality and certainly not their thoughts nor can we know every private conversation they may have had.

[Paulclem]

Do you like the play technique she uses with Cromwell and Cavendish at Esher? Not only do we get Cromwell and cavendish's interaction and an indication of their attitudes, but we also get the relation of the events that Cavendish is describing to Cromwell. Effective.

[dfloyd]

on dvd. It was interesting in that the movie gave a face to all the historical characters of the book. The Tudors is a little ahead of the book in that Cromwell is executed at the end of the next to last season. If Mantel does finish the story. I can compare the book version with the movie version.

The movie is fairly accurate with the major exception in that Henry VIII is a lithsome, good-looking King. In actuality, Henry had bloomed up to more than 300 pounds when he married Catherine Howard whom he executed for treaon (adultery) along with her lover, courtier Culpepper. Catherine had been raised with loose morals so after dallying with several men before meeting Henry, she just continued on with her dalliance with Culpepper. It is said she practiced kneeling and putting her head on the block all the night before her execution.

Next, the movie tells us how Cromwell's involvement in the court politics led to his downfall. Cromwell wanted the protestant reformation to continue onward so he found a new wife for Henry with the German Lutheran, Anne of Cleves. Cromwell was trying to place England in the foreground of the Reformation by allying England with Germany against France and Spain. However, Cromwell didn't reckon on the fact that Anne was repugnant to Henry. Henry never consummated the marriage, and divorced Anne six months later, giving her properties and leaving her well off. While not a reason for divorce, Henry said she had a peculiar odor abiut her, perhaps from eating onions. From then on, he referred to Anne as his sister.

With Cromwell in disfavor with the king, his enemies, the other advisors of the king, moved rapidly to have Cromwell sent to the tower. All of Henry's advisors were of royalty with Cromwell being the lone commoner. His low birth was a factor in rallying te royals against him. He was executed 30 days after Henry's divorce from Anne of Cleves.This was a time of court cabals to see who would gain the greatest favor with the king. If Mantel does write a sequal, it is bound to fimd readers awaiting it

While Cromwell lost his head to the king, a later Cromwell- Oliver - was to have a king's head - Charles I.This Cromwell was to govern England as lord protector, eventually dying before the monarchy was reinstituted under Charles II. Not to be outdone by the king killer Oliver Cromwell - a diect descendent of Thomas Cromwell's' sister - Charles II had Cromwell's corpse dug up and hung in chains at Tyburn gate. Obviously the English didn't have such nicesity of manners then as they exhibit today.

[Paulclem]

Anne was repugnant to Henry

He apparently called her The Mare of Flanders which was harsh.

[dfloyd]

money and houses on Anne. He couldn't send a German Princess to the Tower. But Anne did not live very long to enjoy her riches, dying in her early 40s. Henry could not have been very attractive either with his continually seeping leg wound from his jousting accident.

I'm going to have to see if I can get the old Charles Laughton movie of The Wives of Henry VIII. Laughton had the right build to play Henry.

[kasie]

Please take The Tudors with a huge pinch of salt, dfloyd. I watched the first series with growing frustration - there were so many gaffes and elision of events, I was almost throwing things at the screen. I couldn't bring myself to watch the subsequent series. It's a story based on history, the drama is more important than historical accuracy.

[wessexgirl]

on dvd. It was interesting in that the movie gave a face to all the historical characters of the book. The Tudors is a little ahead of the book in that Cromwell is executed at the end of the next to last season. If Mantel does finish the story. I can compare the book version with the movie version.

The movie is fairly accurate with the major exception in that Henry VIII is a lithsome, good-looking King. In actuality, Henry had bloomed up to more than 300 pounds when he married Catherine Howard whom he executed for treaon (adultery) along with her lover, courtier Culpepper. Catherine had been raised with loose morals so after dallying with several men before meeting Henry, she just continued on with her dalliance with Culpepper. It is said she practiced kneeling and putting her head on the block all the night before her execution.

Next, the movie tells us how Cromwell's involvement in the court politics led to his downfall. Cromwell wanted the protestant reformation to continue onward so he found a new wife for Henry with the German Lutheran, Anne of Cleves. Cromwell was trying to place England in the foreground of the Reformation by allying England with Germany against France and Spain. However, Cromwell didn't reckon on the fact that Anne was repugnant to Henry. Henry never consummated the marriage, and divorced Anne six months later, giving her properties and leaving her well off. While not a reason for divorce, Henry said she had a peculiar odor abiut her, perhaps from eating onions. From then on, he referred to Anne as his sister.

With Cromwell in disfavor with the king, his enemies, the other advisors of the king, moved rapidly to have Cromwell sent to the tower. All of Henry's advisors were of royalty with Cromwell being the lone commoner. His low birth was a factor in rallying te royals against him. He was executed 30 days after Henry's divorce from Anne of Cleves.This was a time of court cabals to see who would gain the greatest favor with the king. If Mantel does write a sequal, it is bound to fimd readers awaiting it

While Cromwell lost his head to the king, a later Cromwell- Oliver - was to have a king's head - Charles I.This Cromwell was to govern England as lord protector, eventually dying before the monarchy was reinstituted under Charles II. Not to be outdone by the king killer Oliver Cromwell - a diect descendent of Thomas Cromwell's' sister - Charles II had Cromwell's corpse dug up and hung in chains at Tyburn gate. Obviously the English didn't have such nicesity of manners then as they exhibit today.

Are you having a laugh? As Kasie says, take the series with a whole salt cellar of salt, in fact, a sack........

I too gave up on the series after the first few episodes. I don't mind a bit of artistic license, but it was a joke. By all means use movies to spark your interest in something, but don't rely on it for "real" history.

I'm hoping to join in on this one, as I've just finished my previous huge book, and have Wolf Hall sitting here waiting. As I am a great fan of Mantel anyway, I'm looking forward to this.

[Paulclem]

I didn't watch the Tudors either. History it is not, but what gets me most with a lot of historical dramas are the anachronistic phrases they use.

Anyway, in Wolf Hall, mantel has a very good mythic theme running through it concerning the ancient mytical history of England, and the descent of Kings from serpents.

I've also been trying to pin down the narrative style. It's not stream of consciousness, but it has elements of that within it. Sometimes you are observing Cromwell, sometimes a party to his thoughts,though the structure, whilst it can be a bit confusing, is very good at linking Cromwell's own experiences with the current events.

[Dark Muse]

I have to say I do not let inaccuracies in movies or books bother me that much as I think it is called Historical "Fiction" for a reason, and so I think a certain creative liberalness with the facts can be allowed in the name of producing a good and interesting story. I do not think our movies and novels should be held to the same standards as a text book.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Well, thanks for spoiling the book. I know Henry the VIII had his wives beheaded, but I didn't know he did with Thomas Cromwell. I didn't watch the Tudors and have never had much interest in English history, so I'm not very familiar with it, at all. I'm not even going to bother reading the rest of it, as I was going to post how, after being about a quarter of the way through the book, I was still waiting for something interesting to happen.

And, why is this even considered historical fiction is it's all based on what actually happened? Am I missing the 'fiction' part?

[Dark Muse]

And, why is this even considered historical fiction is it's all based on what actually happened? Am I missing the 'fiction' part?

Here are my reasons for why it is Fiction:

Yes I think most of what we see of Cromwell's family life, and his interactions with various characters within the book, while there may be some things of which we may know from certain historical evidence, a lot I think is speculation and the authors own vision of the character. The events and some of the conversations, meetings, may be known fact, but I do not think we can altogether know their personality and certainly not their thoughts nor can we know every private conversation they may have had.

There are things that occur within the book that are not necessarily based on pure historical fact as for example I do not think it is a historical fact that Mary Boleyn ever showed any interest in possible marrying Cromwell. I think that is just an invention of the author. And I do not think we truly can know just what More of Cromwell were like in their home life and how they really acted around their families. And of course when it comes to the dialogue, we cannot truly know every single word that was actually spoken.