Henrik Ibsen's "A Doll's House"

[Gladys]

I found this passage significant because it shows the shift of power that has occurred once Nora realized her position, and decided to change it. This is the first scene in which Nora truly stops listening to Torvald and makes him listen to her, showing that she is now a new woman and not the traditional housewife that she had always been.

This seems to overlook the crux of the play. Nora, never for a moment doubted that her moral giant, Torvald, would take the blame for her forgery on his own shoulders. This was her greatest fear: her husband as selfless scapegoat. Had Torvald taken the blame, Nora would not have rebelled. When, to the contrary, Torvald blamed and was prepared to sacrifice Nora - who had forged selflessly for him - her moral foundations and certainties collapsed around her.

This play seems more about humans struggling in 'respectable' but degenerate society than about female emancipation.

[Gladys]

I do agree with the translator in that the play is about redefining the marital relationship, and not just the woman's role, but I think Ibsen focuses on the woman's role more than the man's because the woman is the victim, and therefore must stand up to her oppressor.

If the play is about redefining the marital relationship, are Dr. Rank, Mrs Linde and Krogstad included merely as a backdrop for the married Helmers? I think not.

I am still perturbed by Mrs. Linde's actions against her supposed "friend." It also annoys me that she went off with Krogstad, who is definitely the slimiest character in the play and the most manipulative...Although Krogstad reveals early in the play that his reputation was ruined for committing forgery, just as Nora did, I think Krogstad probably did it more out of a grab for power and money that in an effort to protect his family.

Mrs Linde, like Ibsen himself, is appalled by Nora's rotten marriage and declines to act as accomplice to prolong this marital travesty.

You're hardly fair to Krogstad. Unlike Nora, we mainly see him through the eyes of his detractors. Krogstad is an abject and desperate man, spurned by his first love, imprisoned to save his family and long shunned by his own community. Nora unjustly despises him and his boss, Torvald, is an arrogant narcissist. Mrs Linde values Krogstad, her first love, aright!

[Jeremydav]

Krogstad is far from slimy. I would call him rather tragic. The way he responds to his problems is the way that anyone else would have, one cannot help it in desperate situations.

[poet_discussion]

HELMER. Nora--what is this? That hard expression--
NORA. Sit down. This'll take some time. I have a lot to say.
HELMER. (sitting at the table directly opposite her). You worry me, Nora. And I don't understand you.
NORA. No, that's exactly it. You don't understand me. And I've never understood you either--until tonight. No, don't interrupt. You can just listen to what I have to say. We're closing out accounts, Torvald.
HELMER. How do you mean that?
NORA. (after a short pause). Doesn't anything strike you about our sitting her like this?
HELMER. What's that?
NORA. We've been married now eight years. Doesn't it occur to you that this is the first time we two, you and I, man and wife, have ever talked seriously together?
HELMER. What do you mean--seriously?
NORA. In eight whole years—longer even—right from our first acquaintance, we’ve never exchanged a serious word on any serious thing.
HELMER. You mean I should constantly go and involve you in problems you couldn’t possibly help me with?
NORA. I’m not talking of problems. I’m saying that we’ve never sat down seriously together and tried to get to the bottom of anything.
HELMER. But dearest, what good would that ever do you?
NORA. That’s the point right there: you’ve never understood me. I’ve been wronged greatly, Torvald—first by Papa, and then by you.
HELMER. What! By us—the two people who’ve loved you more than anyone else?
NORA (shaking her head). You never loved me. You’ve thought it fun to be in love with me, that’s all.
HELMER. Nora, what a thing to say!
NORA. Yes, it’s true now, Torvald. When I lived at home with Papa, he told me all his opinions, so I had the same ones too, or if they were different I hid them, since he wouldn’t have cared for that. He used to call me his doll child, and he played with me the way I played with my dolls. Then I came into your house—
HELMER. How can you speak of our marriage like that?
NORA. (unperturbed). I mean, then I went from Papa’s hands into yours. You arranged everything to your own taste, and so I got the same taste as you—or I pretended to; I can’t remember. I guess a little of both, first one, then the other. Now when I look back, it seems as if I’d lived here like a beggar—just from hand to mouth. I’ve lived by doing tricks for you, Torvald. But that’s the way you wanted it. It’s a great sin what you and Papa did to me. You’re to blame that nothing’s become of me.
HELMER. Nora, how unfair and ungrateful you are! Haven’t you been happy here?
NORA. No, never. I thought so—but I never have.
HELMER. Not—not happy!
NORA. No, only lighthearted. And you’ve always been so kind to me. But our home’s nothing but a playpen. I’ve been your doll-wife here, just as at home. I was Papa’s doll-child. And in turn the children have been my dolls. I thought it was fun when you played with me, just as they thought it fun when I played with them. That’s been our marriage Torvald (Ibsen, 108-10).

It is at this point that Nora finally realizes Torvald’s true self and how she had been deceiving herself to think he was any different. She begins to understand the meaning of loving someone in comparison to the idea of being in love with someone and she sees how those two concepts are very much different. By this point after Torvald’s dual reaction to Krogstad’s letters, Nora finally sees that Torvald was not the man she thought he was not did he truly love her, it was more so that he loved the idea of loving her and the idea of marriage. Nora becomes self-aware of true life after this incident and she sets out to find herself in the world around her.

[Gladys]

In a sense, Mrs. Linde is almost playing with Nora like a doll. Really, the end is completely based on Mrs. Linde's request for Krogstad to let Torvald read the letter, and if she hadn't, things would have continued on. Granted, Nora and Torvald's relationship would have deteriorated and eventually the truth would have come out, but I still don't feel like it was Mrs. Linde's place to make that decision for Nora.

Early in the play, Ibsen takes pains to portray Christine Linde as a woman locked for years in a barren marriage. She is the only character in the play who can understand the fiasco that is Nora's marriage.

[Gladys]

It is at this point that Nora finally realizes Torvald’s true self and how she had been deceiving herself to think he was any different.

At this point? I think rather earlier, and certainly by the end of this quotation:

Nora [trying to get free]. You shan't save me, Torvald!

Helmer [reeling]. True? Is this true, that I read here? Horrible! No, no--it is impossible that it can be true.

Nora. It is true. I have loved you above everything else in the world.

Helmer. Oh, don't let us have any silly excuses.

Nora [taking a step towards him]. Torvald--!

Helmer. Miserable creature--what have you done?

Nora. Let me go. You shall not suffer for my sake. You shall not take it upon yourself.

Helmer. No tragic airs, please. [Locks the hall door.] Here you shall stay and give me an explanation. Do you understand what you have done? Answer me! Do you understand what you have done?

Nora [looks steadily at him and says with a growing look of coldness in her face]. Yes, now I am beginning to understand thoroughly.

Helmer [walking about the room]. What a horrible awakening! All these eight years--she who was my joy and pride--a hypocrite, a liar--worse, worse--a criminal! The unutterable ugliness of it all!--For shame! For shame! [NORA is silent and looks steadily at him. He stops in front of her.] I ought to have suspected that something of the sort would happen. I ought to have foreseen it. All your father's want of principle--be silent!--all your father's want of principle has come out in you. No religion, no morality, no sense of duty--. How I am punished for having winked at what he did! I did it for your sake, and this is how you repay me.

Nora. Yes, that's just it.

Helmer. Now you have destroyed all my happiness. You have ruined all my future. It is horrible to think of! I am in the power of an unscrupulous man; he can do what he likes with me, ask anything he likes of me, give me any orders he pleases--I dare not refuse. And I must sink to such miserable depths because of a thoughtless woman!

Nora. When I am out of the way, you will be free.

Helmer. No fine speeches, please. Your father had always plenty of those ready, too. What good would it be to me if you were out of the way, as you say? Not the slightest. He can make the affair known everywhere; and if he does, I may be falsely suspected of having been a party to your criminal action. Very likely people will think I was behind it all--that it was I who prompted you! And I have to thank you for all this--you whom I have cherished during the whole of our married life. Do you understand now what it is you have done for me?

Nora [coldly and quietly]. Yes.

She begins to understand the meaning of loving someone in comparison to the idea of being in love with someone...

Nora was not so much in love, as overawed by the supposed moral rectitude of Torvald, a pillar of the community. Nora, in the text above, finally learns that Torvald and most his peers are moral pygmies.

[Mocha Bean]

I think there were two specific symbols in Act 2 and 3. First, there is the lamp that was brought out when Nora and Dr. Rank were talking. The lamp, the giver of light, symbolizes truth and it brought out right when Dr. Rank reveals his true feelings for Nora. Also, Nora says "Aren't you ashamed now that the lamp is here?" (84). which shows how the truth shone some shame on their relationship. However, Nora asked for the lamp to be brought out, which goes along with the idea that she knew Dr. Rank had true feelings for her, and in some ways she wanted him to tell her.

A second symbol is in Act 3, when Dr. Rank talks about next year's party. He claims that he will be invisible, and goes on to say "They say there's a hat-black, huge-have you heard of the hat that makes you invisble? You put it on, and then no one on earth can see you." (103). I think that by that he is eluding to a coffin, something that is huge, black, and goes underground where no one can see it. Torvald acts like he understood, but he laughs. Nora is the only one who would understand the symbol, and this should tell her that Dr. Rank was going to die soon. The fact that he calls it a 'hat' makes it seem like death is something he can wear or put on, thereby giving him a sense of power over his own death.

[Gladys]

A second symbol is in Act 3, when Dr. Rank talks about next year's party. He claims that he will be invisible, and goes on to say "They say there's a hat-black, huge-have you heard of the hat that makes you invisible? You put it on, and then no one on earth can see you." (103). I think that by that he is eluding to a coffin, something that is huge, black, and goes underground where no one can see it.

I prefer to imagine Nora, at next year's party, on the look out for her ill-fated, but soon-to-be invisible, friend.

[rachmaninoff]

I thought it was interesting how Torvald calls Nora his squirrel, so I looked up squirrel symbolism. Nora really is like a squirrel! Squirrels symbolize energy, play, socialness, and resourcefulness ... all the main qualities of Nora. Another thing that caught my eye was that squirrels only gather what they require for winter. All Nora really seems to care about is money, money, and more money for herself, or at least that's what she wants people to see in her. Nora is also similar to larks, which symbolize happiness and creativity. Very clever use of symbolism.

[OrphanPip]

I thought it was interesting how Torvald calls Nora his squirrel, so I looked up squirrel symbolism. Nora really is like a squirrel! Squirrels symbolize energy, play, socialness, and resourcefulness ... all the main qualities of Nora. Another thing that caught my eye was that squirrels only gather what they require for winter. All Nora really seems to care about is money, money, and more money for herself, or at least that's what she wants people to see in her. Nora is also similar to larks, which symbolize happiness and creativity. Very clever use of symbolism.

Those are probably at the root of why Torvald calls her those pet-names, but above that is her husband dehumanizing her and reducing her to an animal like figure. Nora cares about money, but that's a sensible thing to care about, her husband was in debt and she got a loan (illegally by signing her name in her father's place) to get the money to pay the debt. Her drive for money is part of her desire to be an individual fully participating in the social world.

But, yes Ibsen does make clever use of symbolism. Though I think the animal symbolism is being used differently.

[Gladys]

All Nora really seems to care about is money

What better way to encourage her doting husband to give more! And squirrel it way she does: in loan repayments to Nils Krogstad. But thanks to Christina Linde, harsh winter comes too soon.

[weezyhaahhh]

Those are probably at the root of why Torvald calls her those pet-names, but above that is her husband dehumanizing her and reducing her to an animal like figure. Nora cares about money, but that's a sensible thing to care about, her husband was in debt and she got a loan (illegally by signing her name in her father's place) to get the money to pay the debt. Her drive for money is part of her desire to be an individual fully participating in the social world.

But, yes Ibsen does make clever use of symbolism. Though I think the animal symbolism is being used differently.

I definitely agree. The use of animal symbolism definitely supports the fact that there is a heavily patriarchal culture at the time. After doing a little research for a class presentation on Norwegian banking and finance, 1879 (when the book takes and place and was written) can be considered a "transition" period for women's rights. While equal inheritance rights and legal majority for unmarried women (legal possession of finances and other things) had already been legalized prior to this time, none of this applies to Nora since she is married and falls under custody of her husband. As one of my classmates said, it was legalized "on paper" but not necessarily adopted into society. Again, we see the impact of a patriarchal society continuing its ways over newly legalized laws. Reflecting back on the use of pet symbolism, it absolutely shows Torvald's sense of control over Nora. While Ibsen is a feminist, I think the use of this symbolism portrays a negative view of society, showing the men's disrespect of women in order to promote his support for women.

[Gladys]

While Ibsen is a feminist...

Ibsen himself, when feted for his contribution to the feminist cause, explicitly denied any such intention. I believe A Doll's House is as much about the pariah Krogstad and the thoroughly complacent Torvald as about Nora and her personal quest for freedom. Indeed, the most radical character in the play, Mrs Linde, chooses to remarry.

[OrphanPip]

Ibsen denied the label of feminist, but he supported the individual rights of women, which by definition makes him a feminist even if he didn't want to call himself that, haha.

A Doll's House isn't a feminist political tract, but I don't think a feminist reading of Nora's position is wrong. We also shouldn't forget that Nora is the central character, and it is the fact that she chooses her individual freedom over the family at the end of the play which lead to censorship and controversy.

[weezyhaahhh]

After reading Act One of A Doll House, the novel definitely utilizes the archetype of a hero's journey. Considering the progression of women's rights, we see Nora beginning to embark on a hero's journey. For one, Mrs. Linde begins to appear as a mentor for Nora. As an old childhood friend and elder woman, Mrs. Linde has the experience of being a woman. (Woman-to-woman mentor relationship: possibly reflecting on feminism again?) In several instances, she also refers to Nora as a child, which brings me to the hero's problem. Like a child, Nora must mature and discover herself on her hero's journey through thresholds. Nora is already in conflict with the outside world and herself. Her struggle to keep her loan from Krogstad away from Torvald raises stress within herself. Nora must dedicate time to do odd jobs instead of doing things for her family. Additionally, after hearing Torvald's thoughts on how "every breath the children take is filled with germs of something degenerate" from a parent that forges (Krogstad), Nora is haunted by her own actions and their effects on her own children (Ibsen 70). Ultimately, Nora is confronted by Krogstad's threats about her loan and her own situation as a wive with a secret and bad model for her children.


*Signet Classics Edition of Four Major Plays Volume I