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Thread: Mozart in English

  1. #136
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    Hi there Pyras,

    The first keyboard in the Mozart family was a small portable bought by Leopold Mozart on a visit to Augsburg made there between June 22nd and July 6th in 1763 at the start of their grand tour of Europe. From the maker Stein. Which Leopold said in a letter would be useful for practice during their travels !!!!

    The first real keyboard owned by the Mozarts was obtained in Salzburg only in 1776 - when Mozart was already 20 years old. Not long before he left for an extended stay in Paris. And the celebrity of Wolfgang in Vienna (late 1762) for several months came at a time when he had composed nothing and studied nothing. In fact (rather than fiction) neither Leopold nor Nannerl studied music theory or harmony at any time in their entire life. I have seen no evidence which contradicts these facts. There is none.


    Regards


    Quote Originally Posted by Pyras View Post
    I see that there are very big problems also about the music Mozart was performing during Mozarts' trip in Munich. What music Wolfgang was supposed to have performed? If we take a look in his first exercices, this idea of performing a concert, improvising music, it's completely unbelivable, in 1762. Is it true they didn't have any keyboard at home?
    MOZART - THE ‘GRAND TOUR’
    (June 1763-September 1766)


    1/7

    PREFACE

    The appeal to our naivety is the means by which the cultural and academic myth of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1756-91), (‘genius composer and performer’) has always succeeded. And why elements of his myth have always tended to transcend historical and musical criticism within the academic world, even on those rare occasions where its exponents have been forced to face its own inherent contradictions and absurdities. Naivety and its exploitation were certainly a major factor with young Wolfgang himself. This also explains why we are indifferent to claims that W.A. Mozart was an exploited child. And this modern naivety of ours (plus refusal to fairly examine evidence from history and from documents of the time) have always been factors in determining the contents of much loved biographies of Mozart’s supposed childhood and public career.

    The same is true of accounts of their giant musical tour taken across Europe between June of 1763and September 1766. At the time of which Wolfgang, the alleged composer of only a single clumsy minuet in B Flat Major (and virtually nothing else) had not studied music composition nor attended a single day in school. (Nor did he to do so over the years which followed). Nor were Wolfgang's family owners of a keyboard. But the Wolfgang of popular belief does not depend upon facts such as these which tend to undermine his myth. And we must remember he and his family had already tasted instant celebrity amongst rulers and the nobility of high society in Vienna over several months before being persuaded to set out again from Salzburg in that year of 1763. Accompanied by a new servant, Sebastian Winter (he having been seconded to serve them only weeks earlier to prove their rapid rise in status ). This farce being matched by the sudden and unexpected promotion of Leopold Mozart from his lowly employment as 2nd violinist at the Hofkapelle to that of Deputy Kapellmeister at Salzburg. (An amazing thing in itself, you may agree). Nor do we need to point out Leopold, now about to be absent from his very place of employment in Salzburg for close to 3 ½ years, taught nobody, even on his eventual return ! These too are widely considered to be inconvenient facts. Since what followed these earlier adventures of 1762 in Munich and Vienna proved to be a far more audacious, sustained and stage-managed affair which took the starry eyed Mozarts across most of western Europe over the next years. During which they would be protected by a network of fraternal patrons then in high office, applauded wildly by the credulous as prodigies and ‘wonders of nature‘, and supported throughout the whole of this extraordinary performance by a string of other allied myth makers and promoters. As usual. An outline of which will be offered in the coming weeks over the 7 parts of this series.

    (I would however advise young children and those of nervous disposition to read other kinds of Mozart literature)!

    Thank You

    R. Newman

  2. #137
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  3. #138
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    Yanni,

    Thanks for reminding us of the fairy story. Musica babylonia. Why are these aristocrats always witnesses to these 'miracles' ? There were of course thousands of children who could play minuets at the time. And many of them. It is clear from the very start we are with this story, (embedded within textbooks and taught ad nauseum) either privileged witnesses to a prodigy of nature, a 'genius', or to one of the longest, most contrived acts of musical deception in all of musical history.

    And guess what ? It's the second of these. So says the evidence.

    Edward Grieg (1843-1907)
    Solveig's Song
    Peer Gynt Suite
    Lucia Popp - Soloist

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU0WN...eature=related

    J.S. Bach
    Chorus
    Cantata 70a

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eawhwmykzl4




    Last edited by Musicology; 03-10-2011 at 09:53 AM.

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Musicology View Post
    Yanni,

    Thanks for reminding us of the fairy story. Musica babylonia. Why are these aristocrats always witnesses to these 'miracles' ? There were of course thousands of children who could play minuets at the time. And many of them. It is clear from the very start we are with this story, (embedded within textbooks and taught ad nauseum) either privileged witnesses to a prodigy of nature, a 'genius', or to one of the longest, most contrived acts of musical deception in all of musical history.
    There is no other fairy story closer to 'obscurantism ad nausem' than yours.

    The Mozart site I quoted does, at least, name "Grimm' as his promoter-host in Paris (with the Mozarts leaving for London only five days before Mme Pompadour' s passing with 'Buffon' allegedly at her side). How could they (the Mozart site) know that this Grimm was a brit secret agent who, foolishly, used the same name 'colonel Graeme' three years before (17th July 1761) when he acted as a marriage councellor to the Prince of Wales escorting even the bride (Princess of Mecklenburg-Sterlitz) to London. Or was he using his 'Frederic de Nicolay' other alias?
    Terrible mix up of later brit music myth writers, don't you agree? (post 198 of http://www.online-literature.com/for...=54106&page=14).

    But then you can't really afford rewriting the truth, can you?

    Not with the brit inspired 'Musica Babylonia' of first brit musicologists on record "John Hawkins" and "Charles Burney", inventors of their "Bach- noBach" thru their very own 'JH from Vienna'!

    Thus 'Joseph Haydn' hiding for 30 years in (truly his) Bohemia somewhere!

    Blunders upon blunders by him and other later lying idiots!

    And, no, other than those within the limits of your phantasy, there were no 'thousands' of young children able to play minuets at the time, .

    Get lost.
    Last edited by yanni; 03-11-2011 at 03:28 AM.

  5. #140
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    Yanni,

    For your information, (and this is a priority for me to teach you), the number of children who played (and learned) keyboard during the middle to late 18th century was actually several thousand in Europe. It was a rapidly expanding thing. It was a common thing, in fact, for families of the middle and upper classes to learn music as a matter of routine. With keyboard common. And there were many teachers and virtuosos. Keyboard (including organ) playing was so common in those days before TV and computers that hundreds of men wrote sonatas for keyboard many decades before W.A. Mozart was even born. Scarlatti wrote several hundred alone. There were literally hundreds of music students in every major city of Italy, France, Germany, and elsewhere in the 1760's. Who were expected to learn keyboard. As a matter of course. But this, of course, you do not know. And why should you ? You have never studied the subject, have you ? You wish to demonstrate your profound ignorance, do you ?

    As for the early minuet in B Flat major (which was Mozart's only official composition by 1762) it was not even written by him. But by Leopold Mozart. LOL !

    Thanks for at least mentioning Mozart. As for your version of musical history I think it is seriously defective in basic areas. Grimm is central to Mozart, for sure. You are right about that.

    I will not be lost. I will remain discussing W.A. Mozart. Which IS the name of this thread. Do yourself a favour. Consider the number of keyboard sonatas in existence before Mozart's first tour of Italy - in 1770. There were many thousands. And do write again when you have something to contribute on the subject of this thread. That would be a real achievement. Post separately on Grimm and I will contribute.

    Get found !!
    Last edited by Musicology; 03-10-2011 at 06:49 PM.

  6. #141
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    There were no "several thousand children" who played and learned minuets on their keybord because there was practicaly no middle class then-neither that many harpsichords- and dances were held in palaces only (hence the minuets in Mozart's Don Giovanni, their perfection used as an example in minuet literature-Wikipedia).

    But if 'Hawkins', 'Burney' and 'Rousseau' first counted them, their number would automaticaly tripple, wouldn't it?

    All for the public hapiness coinciding with bankers interests!

    Teach us why Burney's first volume of his General History of Music (London 31.1.1776) had to be followed by Hawkins's next five volumes published London July, 1776 and why 'Rousseau' had to disassociate himself....errr...."correspond" on the matter with Burney, before 'dying' 1778, his will executed in London!

    But I forget, you are here as the expert in sterilising Mozart from "all that jazz"!

    Go on, write your Mozart "Coordinated Research Associates Product'', we all need a good laugh!
    Last edited by yanni; 03-11-2011 at 04:15 AM.

  7. #142
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    Yanni,

    Italian composer Domenico Scarlatti (1685-1757) is credited with writing over 500 keyboard sonatas alone. (That is 'five hundred' in ordinary English). There were several thousand (i.e. several groups of ten hundred) keyboard sonatas written even before Mozart was ever heard of. In Paris there were MANY composers of keyboard works who were teachers and virtuoso performers at the time of Mozart's birth. The same is true in Italy, Germany and elsewhere. From which 'Mozart's' earliest concertos were 'borrowed'. (Setting a trend for his entire career).

    In 1740 (16 years before Mozart's birth) the Broadwood piano making firm was established. In 1745 Mirabal of Spain become a keyboard manufacturer. (The third in Spain alone). In 1750 Thomas Culliford begins making pianos in England. In Germany Silbermann, Stein and others. By the 1760’s there were over 20 manufacturers of early pianos in London alone. And still dozens of manufacturers of harpsichords and other keyboard instruments. In Italy the piano and the harpsichord were widely in use. The same is true across Europe.

    Would it be fair to say you really have no idea what you are talking about ? (The term 'middle class' was used loosely by me to describe those of the 18th century who, although not being members of the aristocracy, were still able to learn and play music. Even this seems too hard for you to appreciate. Whose numbers were rapidly expanding from the early 18th century onwards. Recognised without dispute by every study of 18th century history, except yours). This explains why you cannot talk of Mozart on a Mozart thread, I suppose ?

    Domenico Scarlatti (1685-1757)
    Sonata L23
    Horowitz

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaHMd...eature=related

    Domenico Scarlatti
    Sonata K9
    Glenn Gould

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ilMO...eature=related


    Quote Originally Posted by yanni View Post
    There were no "several thousand children" who played and learned minuets on their keybord because there was practicaly no middle class then-neither that many harpsichords- and dances were held in palaces only (hence the minuets in Mozart's Don Giovanni, their perfection used as an example in minuet literature-Wikipedia).

    But if 'Hawkins', 'Burney' and 'Rousseau' first counted them, their number would automaticaly tripple, wouldn't it?

    All for the public hapiness coinciding with bankers interests!

    Teach us why Burney's first volume of his General History of Music (London 31.1.1776) had to be followed by Hawkins's next five volumes published London July, 1776 and why 'Rousseau' had to disassociate himself....errr...."correspond" on the matter with Burney, before 'dying' 1778, his will executed in London!

    But I forget, you are here as the expert in sterilising Mozart from "all that jazz"!

    Go on, write your Mozart "Coordinated Research Associates Product'', we all need a good laugh!
    Last edited by Musicology; 03-11-2011 at 08:09 AM.

  8. #143
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    Here is a site to help you count the thousands of minuet playing little, mozart-like, middle class children on their thousands of little pianos* at their thousands littlle but happy households!

    http://www.piano-tuners.org/history/history_1.html

    *Harpsichords rather, their mere size and cost prohibiting ownership by any other than wealthy nobility and churches.
    Last edited by yanni; 03-12-2011 at 02:57 AM.

  9. #144
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    Thank you Yanni,

    It reminds us. Leopold Mozart, a lowly paid 4th violinist for many years, rising eventually to 2nd violinist, (and then, amazingly, promoted to Deputy Kapellmeister weeks before he left Salzburg for over 3 years with his son and daughter - although he never taught anyone) never owned a keyboard (expensive or otherwise) before his son, the 'miracle of Salzburg', the musical 'Apollo', was adored for literally months in late 1762 by swarms of elites of Vienna, foreign ambassadors, the emperor and a string of aristocrats and flunkies wearing funny uniforms.

    I love musical 'history'. And the minuet in B Flat Major is proof the 'genius' was real. Isn't it ? We must never examine the actual evidence.

    If we are prepared to overlook the nonsense of 1762 what happens when they start their legendary tour in 1763 ? Leading up to their arrival in Italy in 1770. More of the same.

    Remember - 'Everything you've heard is true' ('Amadeus' Trailer)

    And now, over to you Baron von Munchausen ! LOL !!

    JS Bach
    BWV 911/2

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqp2_...eature=related




    Quote Originally Posted by yanni View Post
    Here is a site to help you count the thousands of minuet playing little, mozart-like, middle class children on their thousands of little pianos* at their thousands littlle but happy households!

    http://www.piano-tuners.org/history/history_1.html

    *Harpsichords rather, their mere size and cost prohibiting ownership by any other than wealthy nobility and churches.
    Last edited by Musicology; 03-12-2011 at 07:23 AM.

  10. #145
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    Good morning Robert and Yanni.
    Something I happened to notice on Wikipedia's "On this day":

    March 12 - 1622 – Ignatius of Loyola and Francis Xavier, founders of the Jesuits, were canonized as saints by Pope Gregory XV.

    Thought you might be interested.

    Gilliatt
    "Mongo only pawn in game of life" - Mongo

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKRma7PDW10

  11. #146
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    Good morning to you Gilliat Gurgle,

    We as unquestioning consumers/students are not supposed to notice 'the joins in the cardboard' of a Mozartean dominated version of European musical history. (Such things are simply not discussed in polite company, you understand ?). But, since we are speaking of the Jesuit Order, (cough, cough !) we may describe this situation as a concerted attempt to bring about a seamless weld of revived Babylonian occultism within the status quo of 18th century Europe and its offspring, musically, and in other ways, members of whom acted at the time as patrons of this still ongoing nonsense, aided and abetted by a stream of sympathetic 'managers' and by men of high status, fraternal and otherwise in governments, overseen by roving members of the Jesuit Order - that order brought in to being by Venetian overlords to be agents of counter reformation but loyal to a revived Byzantium and Talmudic nonsense who, during a time known as the 'enlightenment', (and invented by them) united together the vested ruling interests of that corrupt continent in to a new and seductive image of a 'secularised' society - though the same vested interests remained, as usual, in positions of power and authority. Out of which union of interests the movement known as the Illuminati eventually arrived after the banning of the Jesuit Order (though temporary, to give it credibility), and with its amazing revival after the supposed end of the Holy Roman Empire came wider control of culture, education and musical history as we know it.

    (''Run that past me again, Robert'' !! LOL).

    J. S. Bach
    Toccata
    BWV 912/2
    Angela Hewitt

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjtw3MwNruo


    Quote Originally Posted by Gilliatt Gurgle View Post
    Good morning Robert and Yanni.
    Something I happened to notice on Wikipedia's "On this day":

    March 12 - 1622 – Ignatius of Loyola and Francis Xavier, founders of the Jesuits, were canonized as saints by Pope Gregory XV.

    Thought you might be interested.

    Gilliatt
    Last edited by Musicology; 03-12-2011 at 12:57 PM.

  12. #147
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    A safe and sane morning is all I dare wish you today!

    To explain 'miracle Mozart', your attention should be drawn on the tremendous influence as from 1741, of 'Van Swieten, Kaunitz, Ignaz von Koch, Durazzo etc', Austria's Reichsfürst as from 1764, on Maria Theresa and her sister, Archduchess Maria-Anna, 1741-1765.

    The death of emperor Franz I, August 1765 (Maria Theresa's husband),his son Joseph II becoming coregent with his mother in September, threatened the very existence of 'Kaunitz' who had to flee to England*, as 'Rousseau', to avoid the fate of his close associates all dying 'suddenly' (Haugwitz on 30 August 1765, Dawn on Feb 1766, Dorn in the Netherlands, April 1766 and Giusti for Italian affairs early May)**.

    Even so, Maria Theresa's 'confidence' on 'Kaunitz' continued and he was able later to return and keep his status but with strings attached (Joseph apparently did not wish to be near him ever again, so Kaunitz was posted away from Vienna for a while).

    "Kaunitz' promoted the Mozarts: Their long 'tours' can only be examined in relation to him, his movements, contacts, world views and vision.




    *Harbouring 'corruption' even if not belonging to your 'corrupt continent', Robert.
    **p61,62 'Kaunitz and enlightened absolutism, 1753-1780' by Franz A. J. Szabo.






    Quote Originally Posted by Musicology View Post
    Thank you Yanni,

    It reminds us. Leopold Mozart, a lowly paid 4th violinist for many years, rising eventually to 2nd violinist, (and then, amazingly, promoted to Deputy Kapellmeister weeks before he left Salzburg for over 3 years with his son and daughter - although he never taught anyone) never owned a keyboard (expensive or otherwise) before his son, the 'miracle of Salzburg', the musical 'Apollo', was adored for literally months in late 1762 by swarms of elites of Vienna, foreign ambassadors, the emperor and a string of aristocrats and flunkies wearing funny uniforms.

    I love musical 'history'. And the minuet in B Flat Major is proof the 'genius' was real. Isn't it ? We must never examine the actual evidence.

    If we are prepared to overlook the nonsense of 1762 what happens when they start their legendary tour in 1763 ? Leading up to their arrival in Italy in 1770. More of the same.

    Remember - 'Everything you've heard is true' ('Amadeus' Trailer)

    And now, over to you Baron von Munchausen ! LOL !!

    JS Bach
    BWV 911/2

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqp2_...eature=related
    Last edited by yanni; 03-13-2011 at 07:14 AM.

  13. #148
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    Durazzo and Kaunitz were related by marriage and were closely associated from around 1754. They married three daughters of the same family as Prince Esterhazy. Now, there's a coincidence, for sure ! As for timelines (LOL) -

    Babylonia
    Assyria (westward expansion in to) - 824 to 625 BC
    Egypt
    Palestine

    Further Westward Migrations into

    Greece
    Founding Rome - Romulus and Remus
    Estruscan Alliance in Italy and elswhere
    Byzantium City States in Europe
    Edicts of Emperor Theodosius
    Transfer of Priesthood of Pagan Rome to Papacy
    Edicts of Theodosius (381/2 AD)
    Collapse of Western Imperial Roman Empire
    Odoacer early 5th century (loyal to Byzantium)
    Pontifex Maximus
    Emergence of the Papacy now in alliance with the Secular early Kingdoms of Europe from early 5th century
    Land Fraud of the Donations of Constantine
    Charlemagne - 800 AD
    Holy Roman Empire - from 800 AD
    Viking Invasions and Occupations into Russia and Europe
    Influence of Talmudism and Merger with Canon Law
    Venice (gateway to Eastern Mystery Cults from Byzantium)
    Renaissance of Pagan Old World Philosophy and Religion
    Reformation of Christian West
    Early Opera on Themes of Pagan World - patronised by the above
    Jesuit Order aka 'Counter Reformation' (courtesy of Doges of Venice and men in high places within Rome)
    Freemasonry (later exported to British Empire by 1717 from Venice)
    Enlightenment Myths
    Illuminati
    Globalism

    aka Elitism, Corporate Musical History, and the usual vested interests

    (Free from Genetically Modified Contents and Artificial Colourings ! )

    JS Bach
    ''Grosser Herr, o Starker Konig'' !

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxr_s...eature=related

    JS Bach
    ''Ehre sei dir, Gott, gesungen"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBT76...eature=related
    Last edited by Musicology; 03-13-2011 at 08:43 AM.

  14. #149
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    Escaping to selective generalities of the past again?

    Focus on:

    .....'Kaunitz' who had to flee to England*, as 'Rousseau', to avoid the fate of his close associates all dying 'suddenly' (Haugwitz on 30 August 1765, Dawn on Feb 1766, Dorn in the Netherlands, April 1766 and Giusti for Italian affairs early May)**.

    Such little details will help you understand not just Mozart but 'Handel/Bach/G.van Swieten etc' as well!
    Last edited by yanni; 03-14-2011 at 02:06 AM.

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    The only understanding we need is why Yanni never posts on Mozart when this thread is clearly on W.A. Mozart.


    Quote Originally Posted by yanni View Post
    Escaping to selective generalities of the past again?

    Focus on:

    .....'Kaunitz' who had to flee to England*, as 'Rousseau', to avoid the fate of his close associates all dying 'suddenly' (Haugwitz on 30 August 1765, Dawn on Feb 1766, Dorn in the Netherlands, April 1766 and Giusti for Italian affairs early May)**.

    Such little details will help you understand not just Mozart but 'Handel/Bach/G.van Swieten etc' as well!

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