Mozart in English

[yanni]

Still "unknown": A theater artist basically, his links to my hero's "austrian'' aliases "Waldstein,Durazzo, Gluck, Casanova, Pallavicin etci" are certain but remain in the dark just as the date and reason of ownership-change of "Palais Pallavicini" to http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moritz_...graf_von_Fries.

You are wellcome to enlighten us!

Just a quick (off topic) note: Johann Ferdinand Hetzendorf von Hohenberg was an architect and by no means was he "unknown".

[yanni]

Oh, but I am talking of the "'dark side" or 'raison d'etre' of your hero Mozart all along, haven't you 'noticed'?

Such as:

"July 1743' refers not just to Niccolo del Re's mix up of the "two" cardinal Pallavicinis (Francesco Maria Pallavicini, titular archbishop of Naupactus ie Lepanto and Lazzaro Otavio Pallavicini who somehow got the same 'Lepanto' post, as if by hereditary right, sooon after!!) BUT also to "Rousseau/Burney/Pallavicini/Gioac.Cocchi' etc" same month&year appointment to the french embasssy in Venice under "Montagu" just as his father, "Handel/Bach/Desaguliers/Amyand/Ant.Cocchi", did, around 1710 (followed banker-conspirator Charles Montagu, the leader of the Venetian party, to England, hence 'Rinaldo, 1711') .

SAME for your "Lazzaro Ottavio Pallavicini"'s 1778 letter on Voltaire's death: You forgot mentioning that a month after Voltaire, "Rousseau/Burney/De Nicolay/Kant" staged his own "death"' , that he still had many "things to settle" in Austria/Italy and had therefore every reason to keep his 'Lazzaro Ottavio' profile intact (Hence Mozart's change of opinion on his host, "Grimm/Gluck ", at the time).

EVERYTHING concerning your little Mozart has been CREATED, carefully and very professionaly, TO HIDE the major 18th century conspiracy and their topmen BEHIND Mozart, who played along as NISSEN REWRITING his father's and his own correspondence, UNDER the supervision of "Frederick &Ludwig Heinrich von Nicolai/Kant etc", living nearby. HENCE later Mozart's idolisation, still running strong!

BTW, Leo Damrosch, drawing from Rousseau's 'Confessions' , speaks of an "Abbe de Binis" who assisted Rousseau in the french embassy of Venice, the same man obviously who "1751 de Bernis was appointed to the French embassy at Venice, where he acted, to the satisfaction of both parties, as mediator between the republic and Pope Benedict XIV. During his stay in Venice he received subdeacon's orders, and on his return to France in 1755 was made a papal councillor of state." (But was never consecrated as far as the eye can see!)

WHO WAS then DE BINIS/BERNIS and what was his role in Rome during Mozart's 1770 visit?

Was he residing at "Pallazo Pallavicini" or "Pallazo Mancini" in Rome or in "Pallazo Cocchini" in Venice earlier?

Who cares really: He was the one who performed the last rights on LUIS XVI, was he not, with 'Mirabeau' second fiddle?

"Rome" fell to 'their' charms long before 1767 (demolition of Rome's "army", the Jesuits)!

CAN WE TRUST official historiographer of France (1771) "Marmontel's" relative " DE Binis/Bernis" fable OR ANY OTHER?

Considering his "close relations" to all our theatrical heroes* and his membership at Les Neuf Soeurs, the answer is NO, it's ALL C.R.A.P.!

But, as you refuse to touch your Foreign Service archives, why don't you try finding "John Ruskin's" brit descendants to ask them why he thought of "Marmontel"** as "one of the three people in history who were the most influential for him."

Amazing how many new ruskie cozens (JR's mother named Margaret **** or Cox) have now surfaced!



*Marmontel in 1745, acting on the advice of Voltaire, he set out for Paris to try for literary success. From 1748 to 1753 he wrote a succession of tragedies (Denys le Tyran (1748); Aristomene (1749); Cleopâtre (1750); Heraclides (1752); Egyptus (1753)), which, though only moderately successful on the stage, secured Marmontel's introduction into literary and fashionable circles.

** short 1765 Timeline
May 17, 1765 Zophilette, a pasticcio including music of Baldassare Galuppi (58), Christoph Willibald Gluck (50), Nicolò Jommelli (50), Tommaso Traetta (38), Niccolò Piccinni (37) and Johann Christian Bach (29) to words of Marmontel, is performed for the first time, in Paris.
May 19, 1765 Christoph Willibald Gluck’s (50) ballo pantomimo Iphigenia in Aulide, to a choreography by Angiolini is performed for the first time, at the Laxenburg, Vienna.
June 27, 1765 François-Joseph Gossec’s (31) opéra comique Le faux lord, to words of Parmentier, is performed for the first time, at the Comédie-Italienne, Paris.
July 8, 1765 An advertisement appears informing the English public http://www.mozartforum.com/VB_forum/...ead.php?t=2204 that the Mozart family will be giving public concerts every day from 12-3:00 p.m. in the Swan and Harp Tavern, Cornhill. They have had to take a room there.
(and Handel/Bach -with countless "Koch" or "Cox" or "****" sons- was alive at the time, 1765!)

Yanni,

When you are prepared to talk about the life and career of W.A. Mozart, call again. Otherwise you are once again on the wrong thread.

[Pyras]

You write "Mozart has been created". That's could be an idea, but just an idea. I do not completely agree. Which Mozart was created? There are lot of Mozart available. The one in 1762, another in 1773, another in 1781 and another one in the Requiem ....... and so on. He changed his style lot of times. Wich Mozart are you talking about?

Mozart in fact is complex.
"Mozart has been created"? You could be right in a way, but wrong in another.

Musicology, and Bianchini solution could be perhaps not the best one, but at least it is practical. Just to analyze, study a piece at a time in 1770, it's ok. The research is open. There is not just a solution. There are just documents to look at. To collect and to take into account.

I suppose they choosed that year 1770 because it is very important in Mozart's career.
In school books, authors use the facts happened in 1770 to tell us lot of stories about Mozart. Expecially that about Miserere and, in my opinion, it was just fiction. The pdf is very interesting.

In Italy Mozart is supposed to have studied with Martini and Ligniville.
I see that Martini teaching cannot be proven. I also agree. It's probably fiction. Ligniville I don't know. Let's see.

EVERYTHING concerning your little Mozart has been CREATED, carefully and very professionaly etc. etc.

[yanni]

Mozart has never been of concern to me, ask Musicology: He'll confirm that, from his early joining this forum, and long before, my focus has always been on The Manufacturers.

Have fun with your extinguisher!

You write "Mozart has been created". That's could be an idea, but just an idea. I do not completely agree. Which Mozart was created? There are lot of Mozart available. The one in 1762, another in 1773, another in 1781 and another one in the Requiem ....... and so on. He changed his style lot of times. Wich Mozart are you talking about?

Mozart in fact is complex.
"Mozart has been created"? You could be right in a way, but wrong in another.

Musicology, and Bianchini solution could be perhaps not the best one, but at least it is practical. Just to analyze, study a piece at a time in 1770, it's ok. The research is open. There is not just a solution. There are just documents to look at. To collect and to take into account.

I suppose they choosed that year 1770 because it is very important in Mozart's career.
In school books, authors use the facts happened in 1770 to tell us lot of stories about Mozart. Expecially that about Miserere and, in my opinion, it was just fiction. The pdf is very interesting.

In Italy Mozart is supposed to have studied with Martini and Ligniville.
I see that Martini teaching cannot be proven. I also agree. It's probably fiction. Ligniville I don't know. Let's see.

[Musicology]

Yanni,

I think your graffiti (which consists only of names and dates in no obvious connection to anything but which you alone believe are of obvious but unexplained significance) will be of some amusement to certain readers (including yourself) although the whole thing is tedious beyond belief to me. An explanation of the supposed relevance of your posts is no longer expected in detail by me. Since we have already seen countless examples of this strange behaviour from you which has led nowhere even on this thread. And, frankly, I am past caring. You are obviously doing what you do best.

We do not need an extinguisher in your case. We need only for you to join up the dots of your sprawling and incoherent posts. Which would make them worthy of reading. It may be a good idea for you to learn to compose a thread on one specific subject, or to write something on the subject of this thread whom you admit you have little interest in - W.A. Mozart.

Till then, I will spend my time on better things than answering your posts.

[Musicology]

Yes Pyras,

Yanni appears unable to examine a subject with any method. The subject of this thread is W.A. Mozart - on which he admits he is hardly interested ! And it goes from bad to worse. He is not presenting evidence on which he wishes to offer an explanation. Nor do his posts survive cross-examination. He is trying to convince himself (and nobody else, it seems) nobody understands what he (and only he) understands. And the last person to ask about this strange behaviour is himself. Since his mystification includes himself.

(In the history of the world it is clear that men and women have had the opportunity (and have often taken it) to move from mystery cults to that which is revealed in broad daylight. And who now take advantage of this happy fact).

Yanni's first post of W.A. Mozart is still eagerly expected. He should stay with us and learn more.

And here is a short interlude -

JS Bach
Et Resurrexit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfJLA...eature=related

You write "Mozart has been created". That's could be an idea, but just an idea. I do not completely agree. Which Mozart was created? There are lot of Mozart available. The one in 1762, another in 1773, another in 1781 and another one in the Requiem ....... and so on. He changed his style lot of times. Wich Mozart are you talking about?

Mozart in fact is complex.
"Mozart has been created"? You could be right in a way, but wrong in another.

Musicology, and Bianchini solution could be perhaps not the best one, but at least it is practical. Just to analyze, study a piece at a time in 1770, it's ok. The research is open. There is not just a solution. There are just documents to look at. To collect and to take into account.

I suppose they choosed that year 1770 because it is very important in Mozart's career.
In school books, authors use the facts happened in 1770 to tell us lot of stories about Mozart. Expecially that about Miserere and, in my opinion, it was just fiction. The pdf is very interesting.

In Italy Mozart is supposed to have studied with Martini and Ligniville.
I see that Martini teaching cannot be proven. I also agree. It's probably fiction. Ligniville I don't know. Let's see.

[Musicology]

MOZART - THE GRAND TOUR (June 1763-September 1766)

When Leopold Mozart, his daughter Nannerl and son Wolfgang left Salzburg together by coach on 6th of June 1763 they were starting a vast journey across a continent only gradually emerging from years of war. Their father determined to introduce his newly celebrated children to leaders of numerous European courts. Continuing a series of extraordinary contacts they had made less than a year before in Vienna. This journey taking them first to the Bavarian capital of Munich where they had also stayed for several weeks during the previous year ( the facts of which were suppressed by Leopold for reasons which have been discussed elsewhere) and travelling on to Leopold’s home town of Augsburg, then to Ulm, Mannheim and Frankfurt, (at which location the fourteen-year-old Wolfgang Goethe was among those who heard them). They continued on through Cologne, Aachen, and Brussels and then on to Paris, where the family at last settled down for around five months. Mozart publishing his first works in the French capital and six weeks later, he, his father and sister were invited to appear at the court of King Ludwig XV and are said to have performed for the King's mistress, the Marquise de Pompadour.

In April 1764 this journey reached epic scale by a long stay in England - during which Wolfgang is credited with having composed his first symphonies after making the acquaintance of Johann Christian Bach and other musicians based there at the time. Starting a return leg that was to include lengthy stays in Holland, Belgium and another in Paris. After which they travelled through various parts of Switzerland, again visiting Munich and finally returning home to Salzburg on 29th November 1766. Ending a tour that had lasted close to 3 ½ years.

A series on this subject will be started here within the next few weeks.

//

[yanni]

Musicology, Pyras and Lellyvigni are 'kindly requested' to define the specific parts* of my last few posts (or any earlier ones) on Mozart they find hard to understand/digest!

Until then

*Beside the reference to their extinguisher!

[Musicology]

I find it hard to understand/digest how Yanni can post here on this thread when he has already stated he is not interested in Mozart. This IS a Mozart thread. But it's true he has only been told this 9 times !!! Perhaps he needs a bit more time than most who read this thread ?

Musicology, Pyras and Lellyvigni are 'kindly requested' to define the specific parts* of my last few posts (or any earlier ones) on Mozart they find hard to understand/digest!

Until then

*Beside the reference to their extinguisher!

[yanni]

A detailed answer to your question is to be found in my post 122 above (quote: '... I am talking of the "'dark side" or 'raison d'etre' of your hero Mozart all along, haven't you 'noticed'?').

Try, if you can, focusing there to then inform the forum what part of it you don't understand and/or find irrelevant ('with no obvious connection') to product Mozart.

I find it hard to understand/digest how Yanni can post here on this thread when he has already stated he is not interested in Mozart. This IS a Mozart thread. But it's true he has only been told this 9 times !!! Perhaps he needs a bit more time than most who read this thread ?

[Musicology]

We are not interested in what might have happened but are showing what DID happen. And this thread (for the 10th time) is focused on W.A. Mozart.

Thank You

[yanni]

Caring for your proper education, I'll bypass your rudeness, obviously due to indigestion, to ask you once again to focus on my post 122 and advise the forum "what part of its contents etc etc?":

How on earth will you show 'what did happen' if you ignore the very same people who promoted the Mozarts during their trip to Italy, 1770?

If unable to focus due to the gravity of your situation, I have the remedy for that as well! In a word, try the Kochs!

Not any Kochs however, you will really find comfort only from:

http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/ADB:Ko...z_Freiherr_von (Version vom 7. März 2011, 16:20 Uhr UTC)*

The austrian Koch branch who, like their french, prussian and english cousins, played an essential part in the manufacture of all "other" music masters we discussed so far (including Leopold and Amadeus).

Maria Theresia was so enchanted by one of them Kochs, she made a promise in writing, sometime in 1751, to be eternally gratefull to him and all his family. That was during the time 'Gerard van Swieten' assisted her in a particular manner as discussed in another thread already.

The am article confirms what "we" knew already: The austrian Kochs did use aliases (but the article does not diclose them nor their number).

Ignore them (Kochs with aliases) and risk constipation for life.

Ta-ta!

*My thanks to http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Katego..._Victor_Felgel! :"Wenzel Kaunitz", with "Rousseau" as secretary "sometime" 1750-53, looks like a very promising "Saint Germain" candidate.

We are not interested in what might have happened but are showing what DID happen. And this thread (for the 10th time) is focused on W.A. Mozart.

Thank You

[Musicology]

Yanni,

I think you have been given a fair hearing. You are free to make your own threads. I will not reply to anything you post here. This thread is on the life and career of W.A. Mozart.

[yanni]

Never complained this forum has not been "fair" to any of my threads.

Your repeated refusal to reply to my questions on Mozart's entourage will be relatively evaluated and be given it's fair due by the ulimate judge, the reader!

As far as I am concerned: Anyone sterilising Mozart from the dramatic social changes that defined him and the people- and their reasons-who promoted him life long, is highly suspect of continuing the practice of intentionaly misleading the public.

I will therefore continue posting in this thread (or any other by you on Mozart and his obscuring "diapers") whatever course you decide to take next.

I also advise you and all concerned that major revelations are in the works.

Ta-ta!

Yanni,

I think you have been given a fair hearing. You are free to make your own threads. I will not reply to anything you post here. This thread is on the life and career of W.A. Mozart.

[Pyras]

I see that there are very big problems also about the music Mozart was performing during Mozarts' trip in Munich. What music Wolfgang was supposed to have performed? If we take a look in his first exercices, this idea of performing a concert, improvising music, it's completely unbelivable, in 1762. Is it true they didn't have any keyboard at home?

Yanni,

I think you have been given a fair hearing. You are free to make your own threads. I will not reply to anything you post here. This thread is on the life and career of W.A. Mozart.