Coops Reaction Too-- Two

[tallcoopscoach]

Since approximately 8 people responded to the first prompt, I'll assume that most are procrastinating and they will pay for that. Anyways, the second thought has to do with bouncing ideas off of one another... Obviously fate is what we see here as well as irony but I want you to go beyond fate and see what else is a main theme that runs throughout these plays. Also, what type of irony does this play contain?

[jbarrett]

A powerful theme in these plays is the idea of the strengh of the unknown and Gods and how much power they hold over all of the mortals. There are a few instances of irony in these plays. One example is of how Oedipus insults the old man, Tiresias, for being blind and he himself becomes blind. When Oedipus finds out the truth about his life and birth, he realizes there is a form of truth in blindness since the old man was blind. This is dramatic irony. Oedipus calls the man a blind fool and in reality he is the only one who knows the truth regardless of his blindness.

[jbarrett]

I am just posting again to let you know that obviously I am now a registered user, hence why I posted the reply above, so I will not be writing you anymore pestering emails Mr. Annen, and also that I am going to be gone on a mission trip July 22 - 31. I am sure there will be posts before that but I am just letting you know now just in case I forget to tell you. Thanks!

[thebodystjohn]

THIS IS TAYLOR ST. JOHN! I think the other major theme that runs through the trilogy is the idea of a black vs. white mindset. The characters all see things as being one extreme or the other with no space inbetween for any sort of compromise. People, choices, and beliefs are either good or bad. When in truth, a human being, as well as the choices they make, are combinations of good and bad. Antigone and Creon battle between two extremes with zero compromise, the end result is tragedy. Both of these characters are too bull-headed to at least realize the value of the other's argument. Oedipus also experiences this same conflict within himself. When he realizes what he has done and his troubling history, he is at constant unrest in trying to decide whether he is a good or bad person. While the reader sees Oedipus, as a human, have qualities from both sides.
The other theme in the trilogy is the power of hidden secrets. When Oedipus's incestuous and violent family history surfaces, the repercussions are felt through the rest of his own life, the lives of his daughters, and the people of Thebes.
The plays are ironic because everything that occurs is premeditated by the characters in some way and ignored by another. Oedipus ignores the prophecies that say he killed his father and married his mother; Creon ignores Antigone's threats of death; and in both cases their ignorance leads to far worse consequences than if they would have accepted their fates earlier. This is ironic because, by trying to avoid their destinies the characters recieve more wrath and less resolve.

TAYLOR ST. JOHN

[Reynoldswrap]

Another theme other than the inevitability of fate present in the Oedipus cycle is the power of the Gods over mortals on earth. The Oedipus cycle is a humbling journey which attempts to knock humans off the " High Horse" which we normally associate ourselves with. The story contains situational irony meaning actions that the characters take seem to have adverse and unpredictable outcomes. Like Jamie mentioned when Oedipus insults the blind man he himself becomes blind. Irony? I think so! By the way whats up Jamie hows your summer?

[jbarrett]

Hey Ross! Not too bad and yourself? I can't wait for A.P. next year. I'm sure it will be a blast. Well, have a great summer and stay out of trouble!

[KWikstrom]

I can't say that I agree with Jamie and Ross on their opinion that the power of the Gods is a major theme of the plays. True, many blame their fates on the Gods. However, I think that Sophocles was trying to show that, in the end, individuals have control over their own destinies. The Gods do not make choices for them - their fates are decided by their own actions. It drives me crazy when people blame everything bad in their lives on God or Satan. "The devil made me do it" is not an excuse. Each person has control over themselves. Perhaps the dieties know each of our personalities and can foretell our futures; however, it is up to us in the end. I find the Puritan theory of Predestination absolutely ridiculous. Oedipus is a good example of how people create their own destinies. His own rash anger spelled out his dire fate when he killed his father over a very minor incident. Antigone is also an example. Though the gods were an influence in her decision to bury her brother, they were by no means the deciding factor - she had a choice, and she chose to act the way she did. There is always a choice. The options may not be the ones we want, but nonetheless they are there. Each action has its own consequence - sometimes good, sometimes bad. Each individual is in control of his or her destiny. Certain personalities are more likely to suffer than others. One of my favorite quotes from Oedipus Rex is when Creon says to Oedipus "Ugly in yielding, as you were ugly in rage! Natures like yours chiefly torment themselves!" Creon realized that the suffering of Oedipus was brought upon him mainly by himself, not by the gods (though Oedipus seems convinced that they were the ones who caused all of his woes).
It is definitely ironic that in trying to escape the horrible prophesies, Oedipus left the place where he was safe and carried himself into the very place where they would be fulfilled. It is often debated as to whether people become a certain way or do a certain thing because someone else tells them that it is unavoidably who they are or what they are bound to do. Here is an interesting question: If Oedipus himself hadn't heard the prophesy in the first place, would any of that have happened? Or what if his parents had ignored the prophesy and decided to keep him there and not kill him? I believe that things would have gone very differently if they hadn't heard or heeded the prophesies. It is certainly ironic that in trying to avoid the fates spoken of in the prophesies, they actually fulfilled them.

[tallcoopscoach]

not too many have replied... too bad for them

[Koa]

If I only I understood what you are talking about.... Which plays???

And a thread is not made to count the replies it has...

[kilted exile]

If I only I understood what you are talking about.... Which plays???

And a thread is not made to count the replies it has...

I think this is some school course thingy, and they've decided to use the forums here to discuss the books.

[JWright]

I think that of course fate is inevitable but in the plays, the Gods are the ones who control the destinies, which is why fate has it's inevitable quality. In Oedipus Rex, Creon is sent to Apollo to bring news of which act must be completed in order to fulfill the oracle and lift the curse over Thebes. In addition, Oedipus comments, "May the Gods deny...the fruit of the earth. Also, in Oedipus at Colonus, references are made to Apollo, Zeus, Pallas, and Poseidon. The chorus notes, "That lord, Poseidon, must I praise again." The characters try to control their destinies but ultimately it is the Gods who are in control. As for irony, the biggest one is in Oedipus Rex when Oedipus says, "I'll find the hand that brought death to Labdakos' and Polydoros' child" (King Laios). He unknowingly would be searching for himself because he was in fact the murderer, he just didn't know it at the time. Also, he slept with his mother who, at the time, he thought was his wife. So this whole time, Oedipus thought he could control his destiny. But he fulfilled the oracle before he even knew one existed. Another ironic point is in Oedipus at Colonus when Creon comes to tell Oedipus to come home in saying "So, now, poor Oedipus, come home...Your countrymen are right in summoning you..." But Oedipus replys with, "That time when I was sick with my own life's evil: when I would gladly have left the earth- You had no mind to give me what I wanted!...It is the same thing now: You see this city and all it's people being kind to me, so you would draw me away..." How awful! When Oedipus wanted to die, Creon wouldn't let him. But now that Oedipus is happy and he finally found some place of acceptance, Creon is offering him to come home. That's mean! This whole book is irony scared in fear from the Gods. I like it!
~Julia Wright

[Koa]

I think this is some school course thingy, and they've decided to use the forums here to discuss the books.

aaaah...makes much more sense now!!! sort of...

[ilar18]

Jerry Ilar - - - Another theme in “The Oedipus Cycle” is the theme of arrogance and pride. Several times Oedipus is given many truths of the prophecy. Such as him killing his own father and marrying his own mother. When he hears this by Teiresias and the other messengers, he refuses to listen and continues to believe the oracle is wrong. His own pride leads to his downfall, for he is not able to accept that the prophecy was true. Another theme is the secret incestuous love between Oedipus and his own mother Iocaste. Iocaste had seemed to know the truth of knowing that Oedipus was her own son, and the father of her four other children. She had refused to give the knowledge of Oedipus’s parents, for she knew it was wrong to love her son. In the end she kills herself not able to live while Oedipus knew the real truth that she was his mother.
A type of irony that runs throughout the play is dramatic irony. The characters in the play seem to try to change their own destiny while in the end they are actually fulfilling them. For example, when Oedipus meets his own father, the king on the highway, he kills him. At the time readers knew the king of Thebes had gone out on a journey and was killed by a band of highway men. Which the readers find out was Oedipus himself.

[Sitaram]

We get the word "dinosaur" from a Greek word "deinos" which can mean terrible, but may also have many other meanings, such as wondrous, or aweful in the sense of something that fills us with awe.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=d&p=10

1841, coined by Sir Richard Owen, from Gk. deinos "terrible" + sauros "lizard," of unknown origin. Fig. sense of "person or institution not adapting to change" is from 1952.

There is a very famous chorus in Sophocles Antigone, the "Ode on Man" which begins: "Pola ta deina..." and translates as "Many are the wonders/marvels, but none so wondrous as man."



Now "deinos" sounds like it might be related to dynamis "power". Tis a consumation devoutly to be wished, but I doubt that there is any etymological connection.

1817, as a term in philosophy; 1827 in the sense "force producing motion," from Fr. dynamique (1762), from Ger. dynamisch, introduced by Leibnitz 1691 from Gk. dynamikos "powerful," from dynamis "power," from dynasthai "be able to have power," of unknown origin. The fig. sense of "active, potent, energetic" is from 1856. Dynamics as a branch of physics was in use from 1788.

My time is somewhat limited at the moment, but I would like to return to this post and add to it some thoughts about that line from that chorus: "Pola ta deina"

Here are some interesting things I collected regarding "Pola ta deina", 3 years ago:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sitaram/message/1046


http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/2004/2004-07-65.html

The plays are not a trilogy, although, in a wonderful expression of the things at work in the three tragedies, they say that if "these three stories have a resolution, it is in Oedipus at Colonus, but what this play resolves is far grander than the story of this family. Oedipus himself has become an enormously powerful figure in this last play: his presence throughout the action, seated on the forbidden ground he has chosen, which the gods have chosen for him, concentrates in one man great themes of the sacred and the profane, of the acceptance and denial of mystery, and of the violence that destroys peace and the violence that sustains it" (vii). For M/W, in Sophocles human actions are by choice, not by the control of the gods: "Sophocles is closest to humanism in his way of writing plays, and this humanism leads him to construct discrete dramas that link human effects directly to human causes" (vii). They take care to establish that O is a tyrant in some senses, but they don't say what the implications for the play are, except that he is "therefore prone to some forms of hubris" (l). Hubris seems to be an aspect of OT, but not, as far as M/W are concerned, the point. On the Fate question, they say that it "should not detain us here, save to point out that Greek literature from Homer through tragedy seems comfortable with the idea of double causation. A hero's life is explained equally by his choices, his strength, or his wisdom, on the one hand, and by an intervention of the gods on the other" (li). M/W seem to settle on the idea that OT is a "Tragedy of Complexity" and make reference to the ideas of Nietzsche, Vernant, Reinhardt, and Segal. They quote each scholar briefly, but they add little of their own opinions. The introduction also tends to presume unanimity of the original audience's thinking. The Athenians, for instance, "would have been shocked by the sight of a son arguing with and making threats against his father" (xxxi). We should be careful about overstating the universality of perceived cultural norms.

http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b...st/000933.html

Most English translations of Matthew 7:28 translate the Greek word exeplhssonto by "and they were amazed". Properly, however, an English translation using the word "amazed" would require the Greek word thauvmadzo, which means "to be amazed, to be delighted". The Greek word that the writer of the Gospel uses, ekplhssw in its lexical form, means "to be overwhelmed, overcome with fright, horror".

The difficulty may lie with the ambiguity of shock as an emotional phenomenon in Greek which may indeed indicate horror just as well as amazement. What needs to be considered, however, is that what exceeds the natural or the ordinary tends to be deemed by the ancients as a mark of the supernatural, whether of the demonic or of the divine. In this connection, one might well consider the Attic idiomatic adjective phrase for a powerful speaker: he is said to be DEINOS LEGEIN, "awesome at speaking." DEINOS/-H/-ON actually means "fearsome," but more commonly than not it has the sense of "wonderful." This adjective is sufficiently ambiguous that the famous Sophoclean "Ode on Man" from the middle of the Antigone begins with the sentence: POLLA TA DEINA, K(AI) OUDEN ANQRWPOU DEINOTERON (ESTIN). One finds this sentence normally translated, "Many are the wondrous things, and nothing is more wondrous than Man"; however, in Martin Heidegger's fascinating essay on the poem there is a different spin: Heidegger makes it: "Many are the strange/terrifying things, and none is more strange/terrifying than Man."

[Sernick-looloo]

If fate rules someones life and predestination rules supreme than why even attempt to live? if you have no contrl over your own life than what makes Oedipus get up every morning when he knows that someone else has planned out his entire day? Katy hit it right on the head when she said that it is stupid to blame your faults on the gods. Note to Oedipus: If you don't kill anyone you don't risk killing your father! This story made me slightly annoyed because I don't want to hear that screwing your mom or killing your dad was some gods fault- it was yours, you did it. The irony of the story is that in Oedipus he blamed his actions on his predetermined future but yet he punished himself for his actions. Another note to Oedipus: pick someone to blame and go with it.