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Thread: How the Qu'ran encourages the emancipation of women

  1. #31

    Polygyny: Pros and Cons

    Many will recognize the word "polygyny", which means "having more than one wife". "Polyandry" means "having more than one husband". And "pollywannacracker" means you are a parrot who is hungry. (So much for comic relief).


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy


    In order to evaluate Islam's emancipation of women, we should attempt to explore how women feel about polygynous marriage.

    Rabindranath Tagore wrote a short story entitled The Girl Between (Madhyabartini), about a childless wife who nags her husband to take a second wife, but lives to regret it.

    In India, Hindus were allowed to take a second wife if the first wife did not object.

    This will be a sad story about polygyny. We must keep our eyes peeled for a happy story about polygyny.

    The name of the husband in the story is Nivaran and his wife's name is Harasundari

    Quote Originally Posted by Nivaran
    Not even inadvertently did he ever think, debate, or wonder about the meaning or design of living.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harasundari
    We won't be able to have any children. You should marry again.

    "If only I could give my husband a child as fiar as cream, as soft as butter, as handsome as cupid!"

    It occured to her that her husband should marry again. She wondered why wives got so upset at this idea; it would not be at all difficult. Why was it impossible for one who loved her husband to also love a co-wife?
    Quote Originally Posted by Shailabala
    Nivaran was married to a tearful young girl whose name was Shailabala. She was short of stature and wore a nose jewel.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivaran

    Here at hand was a great curiosity, an enormous mystery. One wants to examine a diamond under many conditions, from many angles, turning it this way and that, and here was a beautiful little human being, a great wonder. This must be touched and caressed, viewed from a distance, from close at hand, sidewise. Sometimes the earrings were tweaked, sometimes the veil was lifted a little. The extend of the new beauties must be ascertained, sometimes with a quick perception lik a flash of lightening, sometimes with a long look as steadfast as the stars.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harasundari
    After breakfast Nivaran had acted as if he were going to the office, but had gone instead to Shailabala's room. Why this deception? Suddenly someone seemed to open Harasundari's eyes with a hot poker; in that searing heat her tears evaporated.

    Harasundari said to herself, "I am the one who brought her into the house. I am the one who brought them together. Then why does he treat me like this, as if I get in the way of their happiness?

    It now seemed to Harasundari that someone had kept hr from knowing the true meaning of existence. her heart felt as if it had always been starved. Her life as a woman had been spent in sheer poverty. She had wasted those precious twenty-seven years in slavery, going to the grocery, worrying about fruits and vegetables, and after-dinner betel nuts and spices. Today, at the midpoint of life, she saw that in the very next romm a little girl had unlocked the store containing the most cherished treasure and by a sudden coup had become the empress. Women are indeed meant to serve, but they are also meant to be queens. In the process of sharing, one woman had become the servant and the other the queen. But the servant had lost her pride and the queen was not happy.
    http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Fo...ML/000173.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Some real-life doubts and concerns

    A big problem for me is also that we want children and time is running out for me to get children. He says we will get some inscha allah, but what if we dont and his wish for children will be so big that he will take a second wife to get them, I could never ever accept this and he knows. Honestly, that he can marry 4 wifes is the only part in the Koran I question. Like he told me his father and brother married only one wife and he will do the same because of me.

    I also want to say that I visited and loved Egypt long before I met my bf and I bought books about the islam and quit the christian church also long before that. I know a lot about the culture and when I stay in Egypt I wear hijab and abaya, I think I understand why the Koran asks for this and I want the people to respect my bf and me. He never asked me to do this but he is very happy about it and feels I care also, this is my part of protecting him.

    But knowing in my heart he is loving me I still have more and more doubts and start questioning things and not trusting anymore, maybe I dont trust life anymore ......
    Quote Originally Posted by African Anthropologist Enters Polygynous Marriage

    http://www.lavc.edu/anthr2lw/acw.html

    I told her about what I considered to be the "benefits" of being the secondary (co-wife). You never had to do laundry, deal with bills, housework, yard work, and that whenever your lover arrived he was excited to see you. I made it sound so good to myself that I secretly hoped to become such a mistress. I began to crave dancing into a special lover's arms, being smothered with kisses, wearing sexy lingerie under my blue jeans, and having him seduce me within five minutes of my arrival at his door. Meanwhile Angela stood fast to her desire not be Don's mistress. When he came to visit her she wanted to engage him in "normal" activities like watching videos, doing crossword puzzles, and eating TV dinners.
    http://www.islam-qa.com/QA/e%7CPsych...00.11785.shtml

    Quote Originally Posted by Imam's Advice to Unhappy Co-Wife

    What to do when you are married to the same brother and the first wife threatens you and curses at you and will only give salaams when around other people to save face but doesn't speak when no one else is around. Ive been married for 9years to him her longer.

    Praise be to Allaah.

    She has to bear it with patience as much as possible, and not repay evil with evil. She should respond to her co-wife’s provocations by keeping silent and keeping calm. If she can write her a letter expressing her views, this is good. Then after that she will not be responsible for what she (her co-wife) does, because she will have done what she is obliged to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by A Happily Married Triple

    http://www.zawaj.com/siddiqua/5-1-2001.html

    This is the life of a Muslimah, whether she is married, single, a co-wife or a widow. We are all women in Allah's service, His very vice-regents on earth. The day WILL come when we stand before Him (Subhanahu wa Ta'ala) hoping with a hope so deep it is cold in our souls and dreading with a dread so intense it will bow our shoulders. Have we earned the Pleasure of our Lord? The day WILL come when our books will be shut and we will be shut, too ... shut of this world and its foolish charms, shut of our chance to repent, love and shower mercy on every other human being that Allah (Tabaarak wa Ta'ala) in His Infinite Care created and placed here to cross our paths, shut of any chance to stand tall, proud and dignified when we say to ourselves and secretly thank our Beneficent One that we chose to love Him more than our own desires, more than the beating of our own hearts. The Day WILL come and those who have earned their just reward will be dealt it ... swiftly, surely, permanently.

    It is not worth it to me to fuss with my soul over why my husband doesn't hold my hand anymore when Nahid is around. It is a waste of my time to regret the changes in my life that Allah (Subhanahu wa Ta'ala) put there Himself. It is a shame that I do not want to bear or burden my soul with that I would focus more on what I have lost than what I am gaining. Why would we want a simple, easy life when the believers REJOICE and are STEADFAST with the Decree of their Lord? Allah (Subhanahu wa Ta'ala) knows our pains. Allah (Tabaarak wa Ta'ala) knows our sufferings. Allah (Subhanahu wa Ta'ala) knows our fears. Allah (Subhanahu wa Ta'ala) knows our doubts and the very day that our suffering will end and our trials of this world, those blessings in disguise, will melt from us as gently as a drop of dew slips sparkling off an early morning rose petal, leaving it refreshed, cooled, soothed.

    Dear sister, tell your husband you will struggle. Tell your husband you will fight the good fight. Tell your husband you want to earn the privilege of sharing eternity with him. Tell your husband that obedience to him is obedience to Allah (Tabaarak wa Ta'ala). Tell your husband that you love what Allah loves and you hate what Allah hates. Tell your husband that you have considered your life and the blessings that have been bestowed upon you and that you are ready to face the next set. Tell your husband that you rejoice at being a believer who finds comfort in the words of Allah "With every hardship, there is ease. With every hardship, there is ease". Ask your husband to pray for you ... and then you pray for yourself, dear sister. You pray for your husband. You pray for this new wife. And Allah (Subhanahu wa Ta'ala) Will ... Allah (Tabaarak wa Ta'ala) Will ... He WILL answer your prayers.


    Last edited by Sitaram; 07-24-2005 at 12:26 PM.

  2. #32

    To Forgive Our Enemies

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade
    There is an ayah of the Quran that I cant quite remember where from that goes somthing like:

    If angered God loves the non-violent, God loves those who contain there displeasure and do not react but most of all God loves the one who forgives."

    It sort of goes on in that vain for a while about how forgiving is the greatest strength and to do so will make you a better Muslim and person and reap rewards, etc.

    Actually, one of the most trully annoying things you can say to someone who has made you mad (and this really does work especially if they are a Muslim with any religous conscience) is "May God forgive you."
    Quote Originally Posted by Abraham Lincoln
    If I make my enemy my friend, then have I not destroyed my enemy?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar Wilde
    Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much.

    - Irish dramatist, novelist, & poet (1854 - 1900)
    The commandments to "forgive your enemy, love your enemy, bless those who curse you, and repay evil with good" appear to be unique to the New Testament.

    I have the entire English translation of the Qu'ran as a file on my disk, which I may open with Microsoft word, and do a string search on "enem" which shows me each line which mentions enemy or enemies. I can do a string search on "forgiv" and find every verse which mentions the words "forgiving" "forgive" "forgiven" "forgiveness". This translation has three different translators interpretations for each verse (Shakir, Pickthall, and Yusufali) so one may catch a verse if only ONE of those three chooses to use some form of "enemy" or "forgive".

    I have just finished my search, and I have cut and pasted what I feel is a fair representation of passages. There was no point in including every instance of often repeated verses such as "Allah is forgiving". I tried to eliminate needless repetition and past only those passages which say something unique and demonstrative about the notion of forgiveness and ideas about enemies in the Qu'ran.

    I have now posted these pasted passages to a page at my website, for the convenience of anyone who is interested in studying them. Posting elsewhere will spare this forum needless bandwidth and diskspace usage.

    http://toosmallforsupernova.org/enemyforgiveness.htm

    I can honestly say that I do not encounter in the Qu'ran any message to "forgive ones enemies". There are passages which mention enemies in ones own family, and the importance of overlooking their transgressions and holding one's temper. There is no message to "bless those who curse you" or to "to repay evil for good."

    It is interesting to note that, since Muhammed was living in the 7th century after Christ, he certainly had ample opportunity to hear such sentiments expressed by Christians.

    I think I may have found the verse which Nighshade remembers. When I do find it, I shall post it here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Surah 3, verse 134

    YUSUFALI: Those who spend (freely), whether in prosperity, or in adversity; who restrain anger, and pardon (all) men;- for Allah loves those who do good;-

    PICKTHAL: Those who spend (of that which Allah hath given them) in ease and in adversity, those who control their wrath and are forgiving toward mankind; Allah loveth the good;

    SHAKIR: Those who spend (benevolently) in ease as well as in straitness, and those who restrain (their) anger and pardon men; and Allah loves the doers of good (to others).
    6:112 is interesting in that it says that Allah intentionally creates certain enemies and adversaries and, were it not for Allah's express will, than such enemies would not exist and act in such adversarial fashion.

    Quote Originally Posted by 6:112
    PICKTHALL: Thus have We appointed unto every prophet an adversary -devils of humankind and jinn who inspire in one another plausible discourse through guile. If thy Lord willed, they would not do so; so leave them alone with their devising;
    60:1 expressly forbids loving your enemy under certain circumstances:

    Quote Originally Posted by 60:1
    YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Take not my enemies and yours as friends (or protectors),- offering them (your) love, even though they have rejected the Truth that has come to you, and have (on the contrary) driven out the Prophet and yourselves (from your homes), (simply) because ye believe in Allah your Lord! If ye have come out to strive in My Way and to seek My Good Pleasure, (take them not as friends), holding secret converse of love (and friendship) with them: for I know full well all that ye conceal and all that ye reveal. And any of you that does this has strayed from the Straight Path.

    64:14 exhorts us to cover the sins of family members only, making no mention of those who are not related to us.

    Quote Originally Posted by 64:14
    YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Truly, among your wives and your children are (some that are) enemies to yourselves: so beware of them! But if ye forgive and overlook, and cover up (their faults), verily Allah is Oft-f0rgiving, Most Merciful.
    2:178 speaks of retaliation

    Quote Originally Posted by 2:178
    SHAKIR: O you who believe! retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain, the free for the free, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female, but if any remission is made to any one by his (aggrieved) brother, then prosecution (for the bloodwit) should be made according to usage, and payment should be made to him in a good manner; this is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy; so whoever exceeds the limit after this he shall have a painful chastisement.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2:221 A slave woman is better...
    YUSUFALI: Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise.
    When we hear the word emancipation we think of slavery. The word slavery is used nowhere in the three translators accessible to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2:177 Releasing slaves and captives for ransom
    YUSUFALI: It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah-fearing.
    Quote Originally Posted by 3:134 Forgiving Others
    YUSUFALI: Those who spend (freely), whether in prosperity, or in adversity; who restrain anger, and pardon (all) men;- for Allah loves those who do good;-

    PICKTHAL: Those who spend (of that which Allah hath given them) in ease and in adversity, those who control their wrath and are forgiving toward mankind; Allah loveth the good;

    SHAKIR: Those who spend (benevolently) in ease as well as in straitness, and those who restrain (their) anger and pardon men; and Allah loves the doers of good (to others).
    Quote Originally Posted by 3:159 This verse may refer only to the Prophet
    YUSUFALI: It is part of the Mercy of Allah that thou dost deal gently with them Wert thou severe or harsh-hearted, they would have broken away from about thee: so pass over (Their faults), and ask for (Allah's) forgiveness for them; and consult them in affairs (of moment). Then, when thou hast Taken a decision put thy trust in Allah. For Allah loves those who put their trust (in Him).

    PICKTHAL: It was by the mercy of Allah that thou wast lenient with them
    (O Muhammad), for if thou hadst been stern and fierce of heart they would have dispersed from round about thee. So pardon them and ask forgiveness for them and consult with them upon the conduct of affairs. And when thou art resolved, then put thy trust in Allah. Lo! Allah loveth those who put their trust (in Him).

    SHAKIR: Thus it is due to mercy from Allah that you deal with them gently, and had you been rough, hard hearted, they would certainly have dispersed from around you; pardon them therefore and ask pardon for them, and take counsel with them in the affair; so when you have decided, then place your trust in Allah; surely Allah loves those who trust.
    Quote Originally Posted by 4:168 No Forgiveness for the Unbeliever
    YUSUFALI: Those who reject Faith and do wrong,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any way-

    PICKTHAL: Lo! those who disbelieve and deal in wrong, Allah will never forgive them, neither will He guide them unto a road,

    SHAKIR: Surely (as for) those who disbelieve and act unjustly Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to a path
    Here are some links on loving your enemies from a Christian perspective

    http://www.dougbrittonbooks.com/reso...nemy010424.asp

    http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=2323

    http://bible.cc/matthew/5-44.htm

    http://www.pbc.org/dp/ritchie/4132.html

    http://www.whosoever.org/v6i2/tona.html

    http://www.jesuswalk.com/lessons/6_27-36.htm

    http://douglas7eberman.net/BibleOnWar.html

    http://www.4hurtingchristians.com/love.html

    http://www.laborersinchrist.org/topics/enemies.htm

    http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/bi...y/BP0201W2.htm

    http://www.biblebell.org/chrislife/prayer.html

    http://www.plowcreek.org/bible_pacifism.htm
    Last edited by Sitaram; 07-24-2005 at 01:24 PM.

  3. #33
    Registered User shortysweetp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sitaram
    Many will recognize the word "polygamy", which means "having more than one wife". "Polyandry" means "having more than one husband". And "pollywannacracker" means you are a parrot who is hungry. (So much for comic relief).


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy

    well according to my dictionary polygamy is more than one spouse (regardlass of sex). Polygyny is more than one wife.

    polygamy - http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=67&q=polygamy

    polygyny - http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=polygyny
    Trying to forget someone you love is like trying to remember someone you have never met.

  4. #34

    Excerpts from Asar Nafisi

    Reading Lolita In Tehran - Asar Nafisi

    Quote Originally Posted by Imagine us.. pg 6
    Imagine us the way we sometimes didn't dare to imagine ourselves: in our most private and secret moments, in the most extraordinarily ordinary instances of life, listening to music, falling in love, walking down the shady streets or reading Lolita in Tehran. And then imagine us again with all this confiscated, driven underground, take away from us.
    Quote Originally Posted by That room.. pg. 8
    That room, for all of us, became a place of transgression. What a wonderland it was! Sitting around the large coffee table covered with bouquets of flowers, we moved in and out of the novels we read. Looking back, I am amazed at how much we learned without even noticing it. We were, to borrow from Nabokov, to experience how the ordinary pebble of ordinary life could be transformed into a jewel through the magic eye of fiction.
    Quote Originally Posted by The University accepts her resignation... pg. 10

    It took two more years before the University finally accepted my resignation. I remeber a friend told me, You don't understand their mentality. They won't accept yor resignation because they don't think you have the right to quit. They are the ones who decide how long you should stay and when you should be dispensed with. More than anything else, it was this arbitrariness that had become unbearable.
    Quote Originally Posted by The joy of teaching marred.. pg. 10
    Always, the joy of teaching was marred by diversions and considerations forced on us by the regime - how well could one teach when the main concern of the university officials was no the quality of one's work but the color of one's lips, the subversive potential of a single strand of hair? Could one really concentrate on one's job when what preoccupied the faculty was how to excise the word wine from a Hemingway story, when they decided not to teach Brontë because she appeared to condone adultery?
    Last edited by Sitaram; 07-27-2005 at 07:27 AM.

  5. #35

    How strange, indeed!

    Quote Originally Posted by 4:168 No Forgiveness for the Unbeliever
    YUSUFALI: Those who reject Faith and do wrong,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any way-

    PICKTHAL: Lo! those who disbelieve and deal in wrong, Allah will never forgive them, neither will He guide them unto a road,

    SHAKIR: Surely (as for) those who disbelieve and act unjustly Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to a path
    How strange, indeed! One would think that it is precisely those astray who have the greatest need for guidance.

    Such a passage as this stands in stark contrast to certain Biblical passages.
    But, perhaps we might find other, different, passages in the Qu'ran which also run counter to this one.

    Such passages as this give pause for thought.

  6. #36
    Lady of Smilies Nightshade's Avatar
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    I thought that in context this passage was those who conciously (spelling?) delibratly stray are not forgiven.
    Sort of like the ayah
    alah refers that you do not do a good deed than a good deed followed by a sin.
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  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade
    I thought that in context this passage was those who conciously (spelling?) delibratly stray are not forgiven.
    Sort of like the ayah
    alah refers that you do not do a good deed than a good deed followed by a sin.
    Good point! I enjoy our exchanges.

    But for me, it is a matter of guidance, and not forgiveness.

    I am at work, on this Monday morning, so time is limited. I shall give more thought to this thread during the coming days.
    Last edited by Sitaram; 07-25-2005 at 09:43 AM.

  8. #38

    A Young Muslim Woman, Dying of Cancer

    Since I have taken up so much space in this thread, which I find interesting and challenging, but also I am sure, uncomfortable for many to read, since that which we hold most dear, and that which we vehemently reject can be sensitive and painful to discuss in such a rigorous and analytical fashion.

    I have a confession to make to you. I am not Cat Stevens. Well, I guess you didn't think I was. The greatest tribute one can pay to any religion or philosophy or form of government is to embraced it whole heartedly. The entertainer Cat Stevens is an example of someone who turned his whole life around in order to embrace Islam. Only such a person can be said to completely understand the religion. I have much more to say on this topic, and it is necessary for me to acknowledge this "cat stevens" fact of life if we are to go in any great depth into the dialogue which Chava's excellent question has launched.

    But I want to tell you a very poignant, true story, that I experienced on the Internet, in Yahoo chat, as I conversed with a young Muslim woman, who called herself Yankin, who was dying with cancer and only had a few months left to live.

    I wrote about her on my Goodbye page of my website, a page which I created so that, should I die suddenly, unexpectedly, I would not miss the opportunity to say a few final things to my readers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goodbye

    I would like to express thankfulness and gratitude for the miracle of the INTERNET, which has given me this rare opportunity for three years to stand on a soapbox and address the world, or at least, anyone in the world who has some interest in these matters and who stumbles across one of my pages in a search engine. The Internet and free website space and software has made a GREAT contribution to freedom of speech.

    It is also a miracle that for only the past 100 years or so have so many of the world's ancient writings been translated into popular languages and made available at a low cost or even free, to a large segment of the worlds population. Also the miracle that so many people around the world have HAD THE OPPORTUNITY to receive an education, become literate, and read those books.

    A few years ago, I was sitting in a large bookstore at a table, and a native African came and sat at the same table. He had a copy of the Qu'ran AND a copy of the Bible. I could not resist the temptation to ask him WHY he had those two books, and what he was looking for. He explained to me that he was raised Muslim in Africa, but had never learned Arabic and did not understand what the Qu'ran really said. He now felt some nagging doubts about concerning the truth of religion, and he wanted to compare the Qur'an and the Bible, and sort things out for himself. Universal education (literacy) and inexpensive books and free libraries make such personal inquiries possible.


    My thoughts frequently go back three years ago, to a young woman in Malaysia, in her early twenties, whom I met in a Yahoo religion chat room. Her screen name was Yankin. She was dying of cancer. She approached me because I was considered by a few to be a minor authority on matters of comparative religion. My other excellent qualification, I suppose, is that I was available and willing. She had been raised Muslim, but was experiencing doubts and uncertainty as to which might be the "true religion". She wanted to question and explore. At that time (circa 1998), I was quite so outspoken in my theological criticisms. I did not try to influence her in any one direction. I simply listened. We corresponded frequently over a period of several months. She finally wrote to me that she had settled upon Islam, and found some peace of mind. I respected her choice then, and I still respect it today. One must respect the choices of the dying which give them peace.
    I am posting this from the office, at the end of Monday's work day. I shall return to this post and add more to it tonight. I think that there is much which should be said about the threads of our upbringing and culture and family and heritage which become inextricably woven into the very fabric of our hearts and souls. It is important for us to try to understand ourselves and one another, because we are all well aware how our future survival depends on such an understanding.

    I feel compassion for young people (under 40) who are by their very nature idealistic and who, therefore, feel compelled to defend fiercely what they have come to consider as absolutes. It is difficult and painful for anyone, whoever and whatever you may be, to place your heritage, your ancestors, your history, your cherished beliefs, under the multicultural microscope of our postmodern world and ask difficult questions. If I analyze things to death or pose very uncomfortable questions, it is because that is what I was trained to do all my life. But do not think that I am without compassion for the ideological struggle which any person goes through in life, male, female, Asian, European, African, Muslim, Catholic, Pentecostal, Hare Krishna, whatever. As Kermit the Frog would say, "Its not easy being green." As the Superman song says, we are all "digging for kryptonite on this one-way street."

    =============

    I am resuming my thoughts here Tuesday morning, as I wait for the coffee water to boil. As I awoke, several thoughts (opinions if you will) came to me.
    One thought is in regard to one of the letters above from a woman struggling in a polygynous marriage. I shall repost just a few of the sentences (below) which seem the hallmark of martyric resignation to self-sacrifice. The point I would like to make is that self-sacrifice for the sake of another's happiness and the ultimate sacrifice of martyrdom possess a drama and an emotional appeal which transcends any religion or denomination or sect, philosophy, or nationality.

    Quote Originally Posted by A martyr's resignation to self-sacrifice and suffering

    http://www.zawaj.com/siddiqua/5-1-2001.html

    Tell your husband you will fight the good fight.

    Tell your husband that obedience to him is obedience to Allah.

    It would be a shame if I would prefer not to bear my burden but rather choose to focus more upon what I have lost rather than upon what I shall be gaining. Why would we want a simple, easy life when the believers REJOICE and are STEADFAST with the Decree of their Lord?

    Allah knows our pains. Allah knows our sufferings. Allah knows our fears. Allah knows our doubts and the very day that our suffering will end and our trials of this world, those blessings in disguise, will melt from us as gently as a drop of dew slips sparkling off an early morning rose petal, leaving it refreshed, cooled, soothed.
    These are the words of a martyr who has become resigned to her fate.
    If this woman were Christian, then she would be speaking the rhetoric of bearing her cross in life and imitating Jesus in his sufferings.

    The expression "fight the good fight" is ink straight out of Paul's pen.

    1 Timothy 6:12 - "Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.".

    2 Timothy 4:7 - "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:"


    http://www.monthly-messenger.org/Topics/TOPIC_Dec00.htm

    It is unavoidable that over the course of many centuries, all the various religions and languages, philosophies and cultures, should influence one another and imitate one another in some fashion.

    If you listen to acapella byzantine Greek Orthodox chant, you will find certain similarities and resemblances with the chanting and intonation heard in Muslim Masjids.

    Consider the sheer literary power and appeal of a story in which a god becomes human and suffers the worst suffings imaginable, all for the sake of saving the entire human species. Whatever else Jesus may or may not be, Jesus is definitely a literary figure or character which has had far reaching influence over the course of 2000 years.
    Last edited by Sitaram; 07-27-2005 at 07:26 AM.

  9. #39

    Do you want to dance with the cat?

    The mystery of Chava's profile revealed:

    http://www.cats-central.com/cat-name...cat_names.html

    MOSI: Navajo name meaning "cat"

    TIVA: Hopi name meaning "dance"

    see Chava's profile:

    "Do you want to tiva with the mosi?"

    http://www.online-literature.com/for...ber.php?u=3992

    (Since Chava started this thread, and I like to unravel mysteries).
    Last edited by Sitaram; 07-26-2005 at 01:31 PM.

  10. #40

    Chava, I notice you on-line

    I have been most curious to hear your reaction to my lengthy posts to your thread.


    I have not seen you on-line for some time.

  11. #41
    loquacious cat mrawr
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    3,020
    well well well, someone actually dug up all that... as for an explanation i offer only that i dance, and that i have numerous catish tendencies...
    as for my reaction, it has yet to be clarified. have you read the Kite Runner?

  12. #42

    The Kite Runner

    I shall look for a copy of "The Kite Runner" today.

    This Penguin link makes it sound like an interesting book to read.

    http://www.penguinputnam.com/static/...te_runner.html


    Quote Originally Posted by Implosion
    “When you are on the dance floor and the music surrounds you, the beat hits you in your stomach and collapses inside you, that is Implosion."
    Last edited by Sitaram; 08-07-2005 at 09:35 AM.

  13. #43
    loquacious cat mrawr
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    3,020

    How the Quran enqourages emancipation of women

    This is the speech that originally inspired this thread.

    How the Quran encourages emancipation of women.
    When Islam was originally founded by Mohammed it was a revolutionary idea, and a huge leap in favour of women.

    Mohammad held women in high regard, as equal members of society and not merely as the units of trade they had been regarded as earlier, and in the surrounding patriarchal, tribal Arabian society.

    The revelations of Mohammad dramatically changed this situation. He was seriously convinced that women should have the right to inherit, and that her witness was accounted for in judicial matters. She became a legal person.
    For us this may seem as if the glass is half empty, but for the women, they finally got a glass, and it was more than half full. Mohammad changed the law so that her wedding dowry was given to her, and not to her family, so that she may support herself financially in case of a divorce. Women thus became important economical players, and decision makers in their own right. In Europe, the Danish women only got voting rights in 1915, and the Swiss are still waiting for someone to modernise them.

    Here, in Europe and the western world, we preach the change and modernisation of Islam, so that the Muslim countries may be as modern, progressive and liberal thinking as we are.

    This Islamic revolution started in the 7th century. What were the modern Europeans doing at that point? The Vikings were looting and pilfering our neighbours, and stealing the women they found to return back with them into forced marriages, or forever to be kept as thralls. Some of these men kept several wives; polygamy was thriving and part of culture.

    And so you think, “but wait a second, isn’t forced marriages also part of Islam?”
    That is the fundamentalists approach to this text. The Quran states that a man may have up to four wives! However, you must remember to read this in a context.
    In the 7th century, Mohammad founded Islam, and so laid foundations for women’s rights. As part of a society prepared to care for it’s needy.

    The fact is that many men died in the numerous wars that accompany the first centuries. And so, to protect the widows, and orphaned children, men were obliged to take on further wives to ensure that no one should be left without any form of insurance. The requirements were also that there should be no discrimination between these wives, all should be treated evenly, and be given equal rights.
    The husband could marry the daughters which he adopted, but only with her permission, and if she desired to marry him.
    When they married, they were ensured the right to keep their own property, and they were ensured financial support from their new husband, so that they wouldn’t have to become desperate housewives.

    For many years, the Muslim men were absolutely appalled at the way the Europeans were treating their women. Like slaves, and objects to be traded in a good deal.
    I suppose they’re still appalled, when they see the advertisements on our bus stops, and might feel that they’re values are being corrupted.
    However, all religions will be coloured by the norms and cultures of the societies in which they are practiced, and so the original teachings of Islam have been modified by the surrounding patriarchal society.
    The important thing to remember is, that the original values were different from those from whom we today see as the fundamentalists.

    According to my own opinion, there are many values to be found in the Quran, but not if they are taken literally. I do believe that many of these values, are highly relevant even today, I just feel there should be some form of reconsidering about the context in which we interpret the Quran.
    After the Mohammad died, a collection of his words was made known as the Hadith. I personally believe that there are many wise and beautiful sayings in the Hadith. For example, “Every good deed, is a charity, and it is a good deed to make someone smile”, or “Wealth comes from a contented heart, not a lot of possessions”, and more appropriately, “All men and women, must seek knowledge.”

    We say that Islam needs modernisation, to fit with current standards, and our interpretations of right and wrong. Maybe, to become modernised we must look back to the original values of Islam, and give these a renaissance.
    Maybe we should take up the challenge of changing the situation for women now, like the prophet did in his century.

    Perhaps it’s time to revisit our current prejudices of Islam, to find the original values, and start to find common ground.
    I think this could possibly be the unedited version, but i was not able to recover the final one. I hope it will be of any interest.

  14. #44

    Good to see you!

    How wonderful to hear from you! I had been waiting anxiously to see/hear/read your thoughts/reactions.

    I am eager to study your speech.

    I understand how time may be limited for many members because of their academic obligations. I had braced myself for the possibility that you might never be able to respond because of time limitations.


    Also, understandably, not everyone is of the inclination and nature to be scholarly and plow through long essays or write long essays in response.


    If someone embraces Islam as their personal religion, and sees God as Allah through the lens of the Qu'ran, then it may be uncomfortable for them to enter a discussion in which the Qu'ran or the Prophet is questioned or doubted in any fashion.


    So, I shall read over your speech during the coming hours and days, and post my comments.

  15. #45
    loquacious cat mrawr
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    3,020
    I think it would be relevant to inform you that in accordance with my own personal beleifs, i am entirely unconvinced of the existance of any form of god. I am an atheist. I beleive that the great privillege of atheism is a more open minded approach to all other religions, being able to look upon it all with an entirely unbiased impression.
    This speeech was not made to represent islam, or defend it, it was a matter of confronting an audience with the concept of their own prejudice (which is something i dispise) and attempting to let them see an alternate situation. I beleive in the things that i have said, but i am not muslim.
    just incase there was any doubt there...

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