# Thread: Is there a poetry in architecture?

1. Them danged double posts!

2. By the way, you keep anticipating me, too.

3. Dear desiresjab
For years I have been presenting this topic ; deep reaction like yours is rare.
" Abstract " then " scientist tool " make me sure we are on the same boat.
I started with Architecture and poetry, and here you add music. My main concern is the
concept of analogous rhythms audio, video and probably other types like rhythm of motion
or certain phenomena and the role numerical representation plays in comparing them.
This is – of course – the tool of the scientist. Math is the language of science.

4. I quote from : http://www.formulas.it/?p=102

"Poetry, in other words, is mathematics. It is close to a particular branch of the subject known as combinatorics, the study of permutations – of how one can arrange particular groups of objects, numbers or letters according to stated laws. As early as 200 BC, writers on Sanskrit poetry asked how many ways it is possible to arrange various sets of long and short syllables, the building blocks of Sanskrit verse. A syllable is short, with one beat, or long, with two. In how many ways can a metre of four syllables be constructed? Four shorts or four longs have just one pattern for each, while for three shorts and a long, or three longs and a short, there are four (SSSL, SSLS, SLSS, and LSSS, for example). For two of each kind of syllable, there are six possibilities. Do the sum for metres of one, two, three, four and more and a mathematical pattern emerges. It is Pascal’s Triangle, the pyramid of numbers in which the series in the next line is given by adding together adjacent pairs in the line above to generate 1, 1 1, 1 2 1, 1 3 3 1, 1 4 6 4 1, and so on"

5. My knowledge of architecture is entirely superficial.

At a high enough level of abstraction, a red hair and Red Square are the same, as long as we remove (i.e. abstract) almost everything else but the word Red, including the color itself.

Some of the differences between poetry and architecture should be touched on. Architecture seems nowhere nears as elastic as poetry, to me, in a single work. I do not have to make my poem a skyscraper, a mansion or a gas station. Mansion seems like the more flexible form of those three. There is room for a lot of variety in fancy office builings and corporate headquarters. This variety comes over a great number of buildings not in one building. I am guessing. I do not visit a lot interesting of office buildings. What I like in a building is change and interesting geometry, not all straight lines.

If you can, it would be absorbing to see Frank Lloyd Wright's Falling Waterhouse put to the test. Just looking at it makes me repeat, "poetry, poetry..." Even something more complex and ornate, like a Victorian mansion such as the Carson mansion, or anything comparable. Anything, really. Don't mind me, I dream up lots of projects for other people.

6. I am glad that at last – for the sake of discussion- we have something to differ about.
My knowledge of architecture is entirely superficial
.
The same applies to my knowledge of music.

At a high enough level of abstraction, a red hair and Red Square are the same, as long as we remove (i.e. abstract) almost everything else but the word Red, including the color itself.
two types of comparison :

A- Between strong current and strong man.
B- Between water current and electrical current
Comparison between red hair and red square belongs to type A
Comparison between poetic rhythm and architectural rhythm belong to type B.
The following shape is a comparison between two different comparisons in two different fields..

Some of the differences between poetry and architecture should be touched on. Architecture seems nowhere nears as elastic as poetry, to me, in a single work. I do not have to make my poem a skyscraper, a mansion or a gas station. Mansion seems like the more flexible form of those three. There is room for a lot of variety in fancy office builings and corporate headquarters. This variety comes over a great number of buildings not in one building. I am guessing. I do not visit a lot interesting of office buildings. What I like in a building is change and interesting geometry, not all straight lines.
Comparison is not limited to showing similarities only. It shows differences as well.
Comparison can be between architecture an poetry, or between different types of each. Or even cross comparison .
Classic and modern architecture, free and formal verse. Even when someone may choose to describe anything as chaotic he has to have a regular reference.

If you can, it would be absorbing to see Frank Lloyd Wright's Falling Waterhouse put to the test. Just looking at it makes me repeat, "poetry, poetry..." Even something more complex and ornate, like a Victorian mansion such as the Carson mansion, or anything comparable. Anything, really. Don't mind me, I dream up lots of projects for other people.
Nice. Stephen Gerard Dietemann:
https://theberkshireedge.com/stephen...ets-architect/
", my interest in poetry as an architect as well as an artist, musician and writer, is more general as well, in the sense of “great imagination and expressive capabilities (and) special sensitivity to the medium,” as Merriam-Webster defines the poet and poetry. I like to say that I design in poetry and build in prose as a shorthand way of describing a complex process as simply as possible. The architect, like all artists, needs to be open to everything as the creative exploration begins; the “prose,” be it building codes, budgets, banks, materials and physics, will arrive soon enough. The prose part is no less important of course, but it cannot flower without the poetry fueling it from the start. In many ways, the animating presence or absence of this “poetry” is the difference between architecture in the best sense and simply functional building."

https://humorinamerica.files.wordpre...ingwater-1.jpg

Caroline Zarlengo wrote:
https://humorinamerica.wordpress.com...try-and-humor/

"Today happens to be the birthday of American architect Frank Lloyd Wright. I have always loved residential architecture, in part, for the same reasons I love both humor and poetry. In fact, Wright’s buildings have been compared to poems because they merge with their environments the way well written literature merges with the reader’s minds and hearts. Inside Falling Water (above), it’s hard to tell where nature ends and the man-made structure begins. Likewise, with a great poem, it’s hard to tell where the words on the page end and our own thoughts and emotions begin."

The cantilevering flat slabs compare to the spondaic rhythm 2 2 2 2 2 2 in a way..
Even some statements evaluating them sound similar
In her book " the Art of Speech " page 178 , Dawn Langman says :" to speak more than a in few syllables in the spondee rhythm sounds unnatural."

Quotation : https://skparrott.wordpress.com/2010...-fallingwater/
" Engineers of the day said it wouldn’t work…have you ever heard that before from an Engineer?"

7. Kashan, in your discussion of poetic metrics, you mentioned some things I did not get back to. Since you are weak in music, you may not know that those little articles and conjunctions at the beginning of poetic lines that cause the blur between true iambic and trochaic, for instance, have almost an exact equivalent in music. They are called pickup notes, and actually belong to a fictional measure that has already passed, not the opening measure.

8. Thanks you desiresjab
I assume you mean that emphasizes the resemblance between poetry and music.
So far we have been talking about poetry and architecture – which you know little about – one time and about poetry and music which I know little about another time.
This dual relation between poetry and both architecture and music leads to the deduction that there should be a direct relation between music and architecture.
This wonderful PDF subject is about that relation. I hope you find it interesting.
I quote the two following paragraphs, the first after the beginning, and the second before the end.
Thus we have the rhythm triangle's three sides. Is it a triangle? Can it be a polygon or maybe a circle?

"The cosmic codes
Since at least the sixth century BC, music and architecture have been intimately joined by a cosmic connection, the idea that they both are generated by an underlying code. This order, revealed by mathematics and geometry, was first espoused by Pythagoras who lived in southern Italy, and it led to many Greek temples designed on proportional principles revealing not only supreme beauty but ‘the music of the heavenly spheres’ − either God or nature. The idea was so appealing that many later designers tried to capture the notion with new materials. For instance, as Rudolf Wittkower argued, Renaissance architects saw the cosmic connections in simple ratios such as 1:1 (a sound repeating itself, or the architecture of a square room), and 2:1 (the octave, a string doubled or halved in length, or in building the double-square front of a temple). So far so simple, one could explain these analogies by vibrating strings and, as Pythagoras was supposed to have heard, a blacksmith hammering away with instruments of different size. He and others compared the harmonic results to the rhythms of a well-proportioned building, and the code of musical architecture was born. Perfect geometrical figures were equated with perfect whole numbers − 1, 2, 3, 4 − and then with the perfect harmonic sounds they produced (called ‘the perfect octave, the perfect fifth (3:2); the perfect fourth’ (4:3) and so on."

"At the neurological level, further parallels exist between time and space experience. Cognitive studies have shown we are a bit like bats, especially when moving in a dark environment with reflective surfaces. When sounds bounce off highly reverberant materials, we can ‘see through hearing’, especially if we clap our hands, a fact well-known to the blind. As brain-scans have shown recently, music opens up the equivalent three-dimensional world inside our heads, the area of sight. Stereophonic systems exploit this aspect of hearing, as they open up a room to our imaginative projection − a picture of space or the plan of a building; or the structural layout of a symphony. Polychoral music took advantage of this spatial sense in the Gothic period, for instance at St Mark’s Cathedral in Venice where different choirs were placed across from each other. Such opposition works well for placing different instruments that seem to expand the space further in the mind, a counterpoint Frank Gehry and Pierre Boulez have exploited recently, spatial hearing-as-seeing."

9. Small whole numbers represent more of nature than seems natural. 17 and 89 do not play into a lot of natural patterns, but smaller numbers such as 5 and 4 do, like in the basic pythagorean musical ratios. Big numbers come into it only when you use one note as a reference point and travel many octaves up or down. But all the basic intervals (in the twelve-tone equal tempered system) are expressible within one octave, and the higher and lower ones are just multiples of those seen in the home reference octave.

The twelve tone equal tempered system is one of the greatest acheivements in the history of the human race, it allowed for twelve different keys, which were all equally out of tune just a tiny smidgen of an amount that a normal human ear could not detect, to be played on a non-continuous instrument like keyboard with a rigid tuning and sound in tune for all twelve keys.

10. Wherever the is quantity and repetition, certain patterns of regularity are expected. A regularly repeated pattern is called rhythm. The rhythm of poetry is called meter.
Using numbers as a units of measurement in various feilds facilitates comparison between poetry meters in different languages on one hand, and between poetry and other fields on the other.
"Meter" is a synonym of measure, it is used in different fields. This is the implication of " metrics " in the following subject about "comparative metrics"
The word "metrics" is associated with business, can it be generalized?
I hope you like it:

It is concluded with this paragraph : " aware of language coincidence, how true is this: Universe = uni – verse ? Just one whole verse? with the same " universal constant/constants " in all feilds.

11. A rhythmic break
If you repeat any word or groups of words , you have rhythm , some rhythm.
Let us repeat the name of our friend " desiresjab" four times.
To visualize the resulting rhythm let us numerate the letters according to their occurance
D=1….-e=2 …..s=3….i=4….r=5…..j=6 ….a=7…..b=8
Replacing each letter by its symbol , desiresjab = 1 2 3 4 5 2 3 6 7 8
" desiresjab" four times = repeating the above digits 4 times
Using excel web representation , we get the following representative graph.
We end up with this shape:

A ny different numeration can be used. Alphabetical order for instance a =1 , d=4 .

desiresjab1.gif

Nice . Isn't it ?

This is the principle of arabesque, some shapes of which are similar to shapes derived from Arabic poetry meters .

tshw-10.gif

Left : a variation of Arabic meters.
Right : An Arabesque ornament.

12. Simple Arabesque:

13. http://www.ruminatemagazine.com/2009...ure-of-poetry/

Li-Young Lee and the Architecture of Poetry
"This month, the bookclub read Book of My Nights, by Li-Young Lee. The most interesting part of the discussion, for me, was about Lee’s articulate and enlightening interviews regarding craft. His most stunning metaphor was comparing poetry to architecture. Just like in architecture, he said, poetry is not so much about the materials you use (bricks/mortar, or language), but about space. You can use the same physical materials to create a number of different
structures, but it’s the use of space and silence that make the creations unique. In many ways, space and silence are what distinguish poetry from prose. "
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http://sydney.edu.au/arts/research/c...vents/?id=3787

UNSPACING: THE ARCHITECTURE OF POETRY IN SHELLEY'S 'ALASTOR' AND KEATS' 'THE FALL OF HYPERION'
"Focusing on Alastor and The Fall of Hyperion, this seminar explores how catastrophic changes like world-urbanization are imprinted on poetry as a hidden figure, altering the very “space of literature” in the Romantic period. In contrast to Wordsworth’s Prelude, which keeps city and country separate, in Alastor nature is traversed by ruined cities, disorienting the poem’s internal architecture, and making it difficult to bring the poem into focus generically or emotionally. To adapt Freud, some radical event has bypassed the outer surface of consciousness and gone inside, rendering consciousness superficial and the unconscious inaccessible. Keats’s poem more consciously thematizes its own architecture so as to unground the existing conceptuality of poetry, initiating a radically modern concept of poetry as a displaced wandering through the waste land of psyche and culture that points forward to Nerval, Rimbaud and Baudelaire."
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By simply looking at a building, are you familiar with or able to distinguish its features to determine what influenced its design? Are you able to decipher where the Sydney Opera House, the Taj Mahal, the Eiffel Tower, the Guggenheim Museum or the Pyramids are located based on their design, structure and cultural origins? Architects employ the process of planning, designing and constructing buildings, other structures or environments based on a blueprint, suggested materials to be used and technical specifications for executing production. When composing different types of poetic expressions, the same type of process is used to design and develop poetry variations.

ArchiPoetry, a term coined and defined as the architecture or art and science of building a poem, is based on structural elements of creation. There are over fifty different types of poetry and each expression has its own blueprint for creation, construction and completion. By combining the use of language, imagery, metaphors and specific patterns of structure, the design elements of ArchiPoetry have different disciplines and poetic variations. Types of poetry such as a Haiku, Ode, Limerick, Quatrain, Tanka or Sestina, for example, are composed based on their usage of stanzas, syllables, rhyme schemes, repetition of formats and strategic styles.
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http://ezinearticles.com/?ArchiPoetr...oem&id=7690166

"By simply looking at a building, are you familiar with or able to distinguish its features to determine what influenced its design? Are you able to decipher where the Sydney Opera House, the Taj Mahal, the Eiffel Tower, the Guggenheim Museum or the Pyramids are located based on their design, structure and cultural origins? Architects employ the process of planning, designing and constructing buildings, other structures or environments based on a blueprint, suggested materials to be used and technical specifications for executing production. When composing different types of poetic expressions, the same type of process is used to design and develop poetry variations.

ArchiPoetry, a term coined and defined as the architecture or art and science of building a poem, is based on structural elements of creation. There are over fifty different types of poetry and each expression has its own blueprint for creation, construction and completion. By combining the use of language, imagery, metaphors and specific patterns of structure, the design elements of ArchiPoetry have different disciplines and poetic variations. Types of poetry such as a Haiku, Ode, Limerick, Quatrain, Tanka or Sestina, for example, are composed based on their usage of stanzas, syllables, rhyme schemes, repetition of formats and strategic styles."

14. Taj Mahal

“Taj Mahal - a poem in white marble”
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https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Taj_Mahal:

''Not a piece of architecture, as other buildings are, but the proud passions of an emperor’s love wrought in living stones.''

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http://www.lonelyplanet.com/india/ut...ure/taj-mahal:

''a teardrop on the cheek of eternity''

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