1984? They wish

Contrary to what everyone else keeps saying, I don't believe 1984 is happening now, or could ever happen, in the real world. Granted, hundreds of little aspects and details of 1984 have happened, are happening, and will happen in the real world, but a 95% transparency of the real world to 1984's world isn't good enough. That's no more relevant than saying 1984 is happening because gin exists in 1984 and gin exists in the real world. The Party's power has to be perfect for it to be what it is, it has to be 100%. Nothing is ever perfect in the real world, and that's why 1984 has never happened, isn't happening, and will never happen. The one enduring, eternal truth of humanity is that humanity has never, ever managed to live up to its own ideals or goals whether they be loving or hateful good or evil, as it quickly falls prey to incompetence, miscommunication, and outright hypocrisy and self-destructiveness. We're flawed. Flawedness means you can neither be perfectly good (utopia) nor perfectly evil (dystopia). Any system we create from now to the end of time will be flawed, for we are flawed. If we create computers to compensate for our flaws, they will be flawed because we created them. Today's world, like the world before it and the world to come after it, is rife with crime, hypocrisy, incompetence, idiocy at the highest levels of government and at the highest levels of the scientific and religious elite. All our spy technology which is supposedly going to create some sort of future utopia or dystopia (neither will happen, nor can ever happen) is infected with countless computer viruses, bugs of all descriptions, and subversive counter-spy programs. The wider the bandwidth of spy/data technology, the more spam and disinformation will be generated to fill it and render it no more useful than a pair of binoculars.<br><br>Computer programming is an excellent example of pristine mind control. A computer is a totally receptive controlled mind which you directly insert thoughts into without any concern for actual logic, for a computer's logic can be adjusted in extremely fine increments to suit any specific situation, similar to a perfect application of doublethink. Theoretically, this gives you infinite control over the universe. If you just build enough computers to do your bidding, you can become God, or, conversely you can program the computers to tell you you're God (the 1984 style). Either way, you could achieve eternal power. Or not... The problem is that nothing ever really works. It works for a little while, then it breaks down due to inevitable forces of chaos and entropy. No human has ever lived forever, for the same reason, nor any life form of any species. Our universe won't last forever, nor our sun, nor our life-supporting climate. Evolution on our planet exists for that very reason, the requirement is constant biological change to adapt to a constantly changing unpredictable universe. The essence of 1984, of the Party, of Big Brother, is not just plain vanilla power, it's Perfect Power. Only Perfect Power can be sustained for eternity and not require evolution. But nothing is perfect therefore there can be no utterly perfect power. The individual is obviously imperfect, the book acknowledges that. But the Party is also not perfect, collectivism is imperfect, consciousness, even and especially doublethink consciousness is imperfect, and oligarchy is imperfect. In fact, Control itself is so imperfect it has never lasted for any appreciable length of time throughout history. This truth doesn't however stop some of our current world leaders from trying to act like despots and maniacs for they are truly masters of idiotic doublethink. So we can say 1984 is happening now. And in the future, people reading the book will be able to say it's happening then, and if the book were somehow beamed into the past before it was written, people would also find it familiar then as well. There will always be some overconfident jerk trying to create 1984, he'll always fail because it's permanently impossible.<br><br>What this book really is is a satirical look at what's happening in the world now, has happened in it, and will happen, but as a satire it's meant to serve as an example of what a civilization looks like before it comes crashing down with a noisy avalanche of bricks. There's always an external enemy to test the mettle of any civilization and quickly rock that society's foundations if it's not efficient enough (ie. based upon objective reality which is shared with the enemy), and even if some sort of permanent stalemate were formed with other world powers, there would still be the forces of nature, tornadoes, earthquakes, ice ages, global warming, tsunamis, etc. and the forces of outer space, extraterrestrials, solar flares, supernovae, comets, and asteroids. Who cares if Eastasia and Eurasia can't destroy Oceania? Look beyond the Earth. Space aliens or natural or stellar disasters could destroy the Earth just as readily. 1984 is based on the concept of perfect containment. In a perfect bubble of thought-defined dimensionally and temporally stable zero entropy existence, it's true 1984 could exist. The only place such a bubble can exist is imagination, and that's the only place 1984 can exist.<br><br>In a way, 1984 has always existed and will always exist because there will always be people trying to make it happen because they see it as "progress", and in a way it has, isn't and never will exist. One thing's for sure, that whatever you believe or think about it, doublethink or not, doesn't make the slightest difference to objective reality...If you would like evidence of this, jump over a cliff and refuse to believe that gravity is affecting you....Mind over matter? I think not. Absolutely not.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>

This concept is quite difficult to understand. I am a fourteen-year-old, so i do no not doubt that you will understand the concept. Think outside the square you live in.

Let us say that every concept in the universe, on earth-everywhere was made from Human ideas. We, being human no doubt can make mistakes. Our perceptions of reality might not be true. Our perceptions are being forced to all become one. Using propaganda this is happening. Ideas can change. Perceptions can be changed.

Imagine if you thought computers were an unecessary to have. A month later you started your own websites, and thought that not having a computer would be insane. That would be a change of mind or perception of a point of view; likewise other concepts can be changed.

Two plus two can equal four, if needed. ANything you want can be 100%. When O'Brien says says he can wish to float in a bubble, he can. This human perception that we have made, is something that we think is real. It can be mind over matter if you make it into this concept. Trying to understand think this in the beginning is exetremely difficult. I hope you get it.

This is in response to the lengthy rant expressing annoyance with people's comparison of the 1984 world to our own.

I mean, I think he's justified in arguing that the world has, to some degree, resembled elements of the Orwellian world in both the past and present. But, I take exception with the last paragraph of the rant, especially, that stated the following:

"whatever you believe or think about it, doublethink or not, doesn't make the slightest difference to objective reality...If you would like evidence of this, jump over a cliff and refuse to believe that gravity is affecting you....Mind over matter? I think not. Absolutely not."

Perhaps he didn't dwell long enough on the message in the book that illustrates the breaking of the human spirit by torture and breaking someone down, psychologically. It seems the book was trying to illustrate that its possible for a human to be broken in spirit so that their own perspective and "objective reality" becomes altered, or modified.

That was what made the party and Big Brother so powerful. If someone was too clever to be deceived by newspeak, or to smart to deceive themselves with doublethink, the party would torture you; not until you confessed to believe, but until you were so thoroughly broken mentally and emotionally, that you didn't know up from down, anymore. They would twist your mind with false logic, while tormenting you, until you weren't sure of your perspective. Does anyone really know how they would behave or reason if subjected to terrible torments, while brilliant, artful interrogators reasoned with you in doublespeak?

The other part of the rant I'd like to comment on was regarding the following:

"There will always be some overconfident jerk trying to create 1984, he'll always fail because it's permanently impossible.<br><br>What this book really is is a satirical look at what's happening in the world now, has happened in it, and will happen, but as a satire it's meant to serve as an example of what a civilization looks like before it comes crashing down with a noisy avalanche of bricks. There's always an external enemy to test the mettle of any civilization and quickly rock that society's foundations if it's not efficient enough (ie. based upon objective reality which is shared with the enemy), and even if some sort of permanent stalemate were formed with other world powers, there would still be the forces of nature, tornadoes, earthquakes, ice ages, global warming, tsunamis, etc. and the forces of outer space, extraterrestrials, solar flares, supernovae, comets, and asteroids. Who cares if Eastasia and Eurasia can't destroy Oceania? Look beyond the Earth. Space aliens or natural or stellar disasters could destroy the Earth just as readily. 1984 is based on the concept of perfect containment. In a perfect bubble of thought-defined dimensionally and temporally stable zero entropy existence, it's true 1984 could exist. The only place such a bubble can exist is imagination, and that's the only place 1984 can exist.<br><br>In a way, 1984 has always existed and will always exist because there will always be people trying to make it happen because they see it as "progress", and in a way it has, isn't and never will exist."


Again, I agree that there will, in the future as in the past, be some elite group mirroring the "1984" world. But, it really doesn't matter if the 'whole' world doesn't become a total Utopia or Dystopia. You don't need the whole world to be Orwellian to make a large group of fellow humans, miserable. In the book, Big Brother didn't have his thumb on the whole world, just a certain number of people inside the boundaries of its control. The book made the point that if you are the one suffering under tyranny, that's what matters.

All it takes is one or a few truly bad people, with other dupes and opportunists and you can have a horrible society. Like the book said, when you're being tortured, at your breaking point, you don't care, anymore. You just want it to stop. You want it to happen to anyone, but you. Or, like the Devil said in the Bible: "Skin in behalf of skin, and everything a man has he will give in behalf of his soul."

I can't honestly say I read either of those really long posts in full, but i get the jist of them. I both agree and disagree with saying that we are in that Orwellian world. Orwell's 1984 was merely his prediction of where our society was headed, and truthfully, we are headed there. Think about tv and the news. If you were watching the news and it announced that we were now at war with japan, you'd probably believe it, wouldnt you? Even it it were not true, we wouldn't know any better. That is exactly how it was in 1984. The party, by limiting what people knew, basically controlled their minds. When they said we were at war with Eurasia, people believed it. Now think about this. If everyone in the world truly believed that 2 and 2 make 5, how could you possible argue otherwise?

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Originally Posted by Darren

One thing's for sure, that whatever you believe or think about it, doublethink or not, doesn't make the slightest difference to objective reality...If you would like evidence of this, jump over a cliff and refuse to believe that gravity is affecting you....Mind over matter? I think not. Absolutely not.

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Is it really for sure though? If you jump off the cliff and die, the only people who know you have died are the people watching/who find out. If the Party said you had not died and people believed it, you would not have died - all records would say you were alive, why certain people might even say they saw you walking around. Dead men tell no tales, none that the Party would be unable to alter anyway.

I agree that such a world is impossible under the EXACT circumstances of 1984, but the same sort of method of control can arise easily. Instead of Big Brother ruling us, we are ruled by corporations. Everything is commercialised, everyone is told to behave in some sort of way and people who do not fit into the norm are excluded. Perhaps not '1984' style, but we are definitely sinking into a 'Fahrenheit 411' sort of world. I'd suggest reading that if you haven't yet. Just look at society these days, that's how people are.

Jesus Christ, it's symbolism people!!! Symbolism!!! The government IS using the means of mass communications to control the way that we think of the world and thus, easily gaining our avid support of their lousy actions. We're happy though. And if we express any alternative attitude, we're 'unpatriotic' or 'UnAmerican' or something. This is literature.

If you read Orwell and say "this isn't happening in our world today because in the book I see this, this, and this, and in reality those things are not there"
then you've totally missed most of the point of Orwell's masterpiece. I suggest that you study Biology or Mathematics instead.

Allow me to clarify. When I say "people" what I really mean is Darren. :nod:

I see 1984 as sort of an exaggeration of the negatives of our world in the past, present, and future. What happened in the book may not happen exactily like that in real life, but you have to admit that the world today has some destinct characteristics that mirror 1984, albeit a slightly warped mirror. It's just like any farce, minus the humor. It exaggerates characteristics to show a theme, give a lesson.

Rock Rocks you Rock my socks. You are correct. Most impressive coming from a 14-year old. Hopefully Darren will have read your response carefully.

Darren are you ....... :lol: :flare: you need to rethink your decicion...!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :rage: :bday_2:

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Originally Posted by ThatIndividual

Jesus Christ, it's symbolism people!!! Symbolism!!! The government IS using the means of mass communications to control the way that we think of the world and thus, easily gaining our avid support of their lousy actions. We're happy though. And if we express any alternative attitude, we're 'unpatriotic' or 'UnAmerican' or something. This is literature.

If you read Orwell and say "this isn't happening in our world today because in the book I see this, this, and this, and in reality those things are not there"
then you've totally missed most of the point of Orwell's masterpiece. I suggest that you study Biology or Mathematics instead.

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I totally agree with this because the point of the novel is to show a concept threw the EXTREME of it. He isnt saying this is what 1984 is really going to be like. He is simply trying to show things that the government uses (like listening in on conversations) in the extreme of it so that people will understand it and understand how wrong it is, and to present ideas about how humanity in the whole Ministry of Love bit. Because that is a whole Clockwork Orange scene, and it is just showing that people can be molded, manipulated, and broken if the right things are done to them.
So to keep this short (unlike some) the novel is simply there to present ideas and to make you think about them. It is not a prophecy.

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Originally Posted by jessezzel

I totally agree with this because the point of the novel is to show a concept threw the EXTREME of it. He isnt saying this is what 1984 is really going to be like. He is simply trying to show things that the government uses (like listening in on conversations) in the extreme of it so that people will understand it and understand how wrong it is, and to present ideas about how humanity in the whole Ministry of Love bit. Because that is a whole Clockwork Orange scene, and it is just showing that people can be molded, manipulated, and broken if the right things are done to them.
So to keep this short (unlike some) the novel is simply there to present ideas and to make you think about them. It is not a prophecy.

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True, while not prophecy, it is an extream thought as to what may come, with extream being the key here.

O.k. You might find that 1984 isn't relevant, but compare the theories of constant war and class struggles to the world and they do make sense. Such ideas as doublethink obviously exist doublethink can be as simple as being fourteen and believing that you will stay with your boyfriend/girlfriend and get married to them and saying that it is different to the last time you said it with your ex boyfriend/girlfriend when all logic points to the fact that its not true. I know the book doesnt refer to the use of doublethink like that but that just shows how simple doublethink can be.
Do you not see a link between the elite ruling and the proletariat being ruled, lets face it american presidents have to be rich to have a chance of being elected, i might be wrong those are just my thoughts on the book and its relevance to the modern day world.

I'd like to make a comment about the first post- specifically, mind over matter.

I agree with many of the above posts concerning this matter- If you truly beleive that you are unaffected by gravity- then you won't actually notice that you are quite suddenly dead. Think about the mentally insane, or the movie "A Beautiful Mind." A person's mind may tell them one thing, when 'reality' is something completely different.

If Winston was broken down far enough to truly beleive that 2+2=5, then no one would be able to convince him otherwise, despite what we know to be 'true.'

Whilst i completely agree with the perspective that 1984 is highly satirical, i would like to point out to the certain individuals that claim that 1984 cannot and is not happening that, had they read more about Maos government in China they would maybe change their minds.
Suggested reading:
'Life and death in Shanghai' by Nien Cheng
'Wild Swans' by Jung Chang

Sums it up



“My conclusion would be that success or failure in competitive activities heretofore asserted exhibits no tendency to be commensurate with any objective consideration of the elucidated phenomena which necessarily compels the innate capacity, but that a considerable element of the unpredictable must invariably be taken under consideration or in the alternative should be considered bull****.”



You see ... what you do is put a bunch of 75 cent words in a spinning drum and have three educated idiots pull out four to six each and place them in random order, call it a major event, publish it, and be declared a genius. A similar device was used for the naming of Cabbage Patch Kids ....

The proles lead simple lives, away from the hassles of the party and Big Brother. Though uneducated, they seemed happy. On the contrary, those people who are educated, like Wintson smith, lead unhappy and controlled lives working in the ministries, under the constant watchful eye of Big Brother.

What do you think was a key motivator/s for loving BB? Some characters faked this love including Wintson and Julia, but why is it, that people like O'Brien and Mr Charrington have a genuine love and dedication to the party?

Please enlighten me with a response, i'm finding it difficult to understand their motives.

I think what truely makes 1984 a masterpeice is not the government and the system. It's not the Ministry of Truth where the manufactor lies or the Ministry of Love where they create hate, no. It's Orwell's ability to accuartly depict human nature in a world where the human (as we know it) seems extinct.

Dispite all the control, all the safty procausions, it is still evident that the natural rebel still lives in the system. Eventually the rebel fails like most, but still the existance of Winston's will is an encouraging ray of hope in the dark world.

That ray of hope is indeed evident through Winston's ability to fight the inherent beliefs of society around him, yet the "victory" at the end can only leave the reader feeling that there is no hope in a bleak future... if it mirrors the society that Orwell created.

Many people would agree that the present days reflect what Orwell stitched together through the shortening of our language, through our constant monitoring and surveillance and being brainwashed by the media. With that in mind i question...should we expect that the worst is yet to come?

Satire??? really??? No. Satire is generally supposed to be funny. Unless I've been missinformed. I think it's pretty straight forward. It's not a prediction so much as a warning. The world could possibly turn into this if we are not carefull. And I think it could, as long as the majority of the world is living in such terrible conditions that it doesn't care about the government (which it is).

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Originally Posted by gtambourines

Satire??? really??? No. Satire is generally supposed to be funny.

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No. Satire does not have top be funny. "Satire is generally witty, but is not essentially comedic"

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Originally Posted by gtambourines

Unless I've been missinformed. I think it's pretty straight forward. It's not a prediction so much as a warning. The world could possibly turn into this if we are not carefull. And I think it could, as long as the majority of the world is living in such terrible conditions that it doesn't care about the government (which it is).

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I disagree. It is because the western world is living in essentially good conditions that people don't feel the need to challenge the governments.

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Originally Posted by RougeRenard

I'd like to make a comment about the first post- specifically, mind over matter.

I agree with many of the above posts concerning this matter- If you truly beleive that you are unaffected by gravity- then you won't actually notice that you are quite suddenly dead. Think about the mentally insane, or the movie "A Beautiful Mind." A person's mind may tell them one thing, when 'reality' is something completely different.

If Winston was broken down far enough to truly beleive that 2+2=5, then no one would be able to convince him otherwise, despite what we know to be 'true.'

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think of i this way. you are in an anti grav chamber. your "normal" assumptions of "up" "down" "left" "right" are NO LONGER APPLICABLE. the same goes for modern connotations of true, good, right, wrong, free, and the like. you have to realize that, in order to achieve empathy with Winston one must first forget about their preconceived notions about almost everything. :alien: just remember, many aspects (such as truth, fair, good, etc.) of this novel can not be compared to "today"

i agree that it is unlikely that 1984 will be repeated exactly but maybe that's just because we can't comprehend a future like that. i doubt we'd have a future like that unless a massive event happened- something would have to be the trigger for it, I'm sure. And the scary thing about the book is that self-doubt is scary and possible. We know things because we've been told them, or read them, etc, but what if they're not true? Have you ever had a memory of your childhood where you think you can remember, say, falling off a swing in a park in Paris, but you're not actually sure it happened? If you had a video then you could definitively say it happened but if you didn't have a video, or photograph, or something, you wouldn't know it had happened.

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Originally Posted by Goldenchild

The proles lead simple lives, away from the hassles of the party and Big Brother. Though uneducated, they seemed happy. On the contrary, those people who are educated, like Wintson smith, lead unhappy and controlled lives working in the ministries, under the constant watchful eye of Big Brother.

What do you think was a key motivator/s for loving BB? Some characters faked this love including Wintson and Julia, but why is it, that people like O'Brien and Mr Charrington have a genuine love and dedication to the party?

Please enlighten me with a response, i'm finding it difficult to understand their motives.

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The mindless and ignorant love that O'Brian and Mr Charrington feel toward big brother can be most easily compared to western religion. No one in any church anywhere has genuinely seen, heard, felt, or been affected by a God in any way. But ask any christian or catholic or mormon or whatever and they will tell you how much they "love" God. God is seen as all powerful, all knowing, and all loving, as well as the ultimate decider of our fate and destiny. i.e. His "plan" or however its refered to. Big Brother is seen in EXACTLY the same light. This is the very reason that i believe Orwell Wrote 1984 as anti-totalitarian as well as anti-catholic. He uses their "love" for big brother as representitive of someones "love" for God. However he puts it into the application of "love" for a dictator to more easily exemplify its somewhat rediculous concept of love for an unseen,unfelt, idolic figure.

I hope this offers you MY retoric on 1984. It may not agree with yours, and frankly i dont care, right and wrong is not the point of retorical analysis. And Im sorry if i offended anyone, I am simply pointing out how 1984 and modern western religion are similar. And its no secret that orwell wasn't a big fan of catholicism.

As for me, i admire those with faith. I just hate the modern adaptation of conformed religion. I have no problem with (ANY) religion, just the church.

Also, 1984 is a warning against the government and media, only in a shallow sense. It is more focused on the true value in life: love, loyalty, and compassion. It is a warning to not lose your individuality. Orwell had an appriciation for the lower, working class because, like modern society, its the only place where human nature can still be found. When is the last time you saw a business man stop on the side of a road to help an old lady change a tire? The proles show this loyalty to fellow man in 1984. Not because they will somehow be rewarded, only because they feel the need of another human. "The proles are human beings, we are not human" Winston says this at the end of chapter 6 part two.

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Originally Posted by kevinthediltz

The mindless and ignorant love that O'Brian and Mr Charrington feel toward big brother can be most easily compared to western religion.

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As you say, each to his own on interpretation, but I think you're way off base here. To claim equivalence between christianity and the RCC and 1984, you'd need to display that the pope, cardinals and priests of the RCC are all in collusion at building a fake god for the good of their organisation.

As you may guess from my name, I'm an atheist - and a fairly cynical one - but I have no doubt that the beliefs of priests are honest and result from no doubelthink at all.

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Originally Posted by kevinthediltz

And Im sorry if i offended anyone, I am simply pointing out how 1984 and modern western religion are similar. And its no secret that orwell wasn't a big fan of catholicism.

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Yes, but you're doing Orwell a disservice by suggesting that he hid criticism of the church in 1984. Orwell not only painted his targets brightly, he made sure his barbs went all the way home. Subtlety was not his strong suit. Orwell made his feelings toward religion plain in many essays and some of his other novels, so he had no need to try to hide a message inside 1984. 1984 is purely anti-totalitarian.

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Originally Posted by kevinthediltz

Also, 1984 is a warning against the government and media, only in a shallow sense. It is more focused on the true value in life: love, loyalty, and compassion. It is a warning to not lose your individuality.

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I think you're putting the cart before the horse a little - Orwell's message was all about totalitarianism, the concepts of love and loyalty are ancillary to that, as is individualism. See my sig.

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Originally Posted by kevinthediltz

Orwell had an appriciation for the lower, working class because, like modern society, its the only place where human nature can still be found. When is the last time you saw a business man stop on the side of a road to help an old lady change a tire?

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I'm sorry, but this is plain nonsense. You have actually just re-hashed the Party's own history of hard-hearted capitalists. You're stereotyping and wrong. Who are the world's greatest philanthropists? Bill Gates and Warren Buffet - who between them are giving away more than most governments ever will. I'd say it's every bit as likely a businessman would stop to assist with a tyre change than anyone esle. Orwell would never have made such a statement and nor should you.

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Originally Posted by kevinthediltz

The proles show this loyalty to fellow man in 1984. Not because they will somehow be rewarded, only because they feel the need of another human. "The proles are human beings, we are not human" Winston says this at the end of chapter 6 part two.

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Where do the proles show loyalty?

Orwell emphasised the crowd baying for the saucepans to show that the proles had no cohesion at all. You've romanticised the proles exactly as Winston mistakenly does - the proles aren't human at all, but cattle.

Orwell was openly against the church and there is no denying the similarities between the church and 1984. There are deeper purposes in EVERY novel. And his criticism of the church isnt really hidden in 1984. Its quite obvious. As far as the proles representing loyalty and compassion, i nearly quoted the book in this one! "all hope lies in the proles." How can you argue with that? And i understand that some of the richest people in the world are kind and compassionate, i am meerly saying that, IN GENERAL, you wont find loyalty to fellow man like you will when you experiance the lower, working class of people. Orwell openly hated intelectuals and had a great respect for the working class. The proles are not cattle at all, they are the only beings left on earth that take pride and joy in their work. Go back and read about the part in 1984 when winston and julia are listening to the fat woman singing as she works for her family. It seems like you are trying only to criticize me because my interpitation of 1984 is slightly different than yours.

One thing we must all remember is that fact that orwell depicted a totalitarian society in which control was already, more or less achieved. This is what was both shocking and frightening about the book, the fact that a totalitarian socialist state such as one in 1984 is self sustaining.

Orwell shocked the world and got us all thinking with is book because of the fact that the society he depicted seemed very realistic. It seemed like it worked, it just made sense. However, being the birlliant writer that he is, it is significant that he spent majority of his time describing this state of absolute control once it had already been achieved, and describing how it worked, rather than describing how it got there.

The novel may have, possibly, worked better, stylistically if it were to describe the deterioration of this society as it happens, rather than starting at the finish point of this process. But logically speaking that would be a hrad thing to do as nobody know how anyone could get to that point. Therefore Orwell's descriptions of the fall of Ocenia from relative democracy to totalitarianism are extremely few and far between, not to mention vague.

So what I'm saying is that getting to that state of totalitarian rule at which Ocenia was in 1984 would be practically impossible. Its not something that could be planned. But wars wuch as world war two and the war depicted in the novel turn the world upside down for a while, and open the tiny window of opportunity for a such oligarchal dictatoprship to establish itslef. If we were to come out of a cataclysmic event such as a world war in a similar totalitarian state, we'd be stuck there.

Its like the egg and the schicken. Forget who came first, once they're there, they're there forever. They're self-sustaining. They never go away. But someone had to put one of them (it doesn't matter which one) there in the first place.

ROCKrocks I agree with you all the way. this concept is soooooo hard to understand, take it from a 16 year old who is having a very hard time trying to understand this book. The concept of this book is quite amazing though.. almost unbelievable! Most of the things Orwell perdicted to happen in this book, have come true within the last few years or so. Orwell makes me wonder.., how in the world did he know these things were going to happen? How did he accurately guess what the future had in store? It makes your brain wonder, i almost don't believe it myself. I mean really, in the year 1948, could YOU have accurately guessed what was going to happen in the future and then write a book about it?