Religion and Mental Illness

I suffer from a disease called schizoaffective disorder, it's basically paranoid schizophrenia with bipolar. Once a couple years ago, I stopped taking my meds and started getting really really religious. I heard demons and angels, I guess you could say - or at least what I thought were demons and angels. My question is, why do you think people with mental illnesses like mine become so religious? Why do we automatically assume that its demons or angels instead of thinking it could be aliens or anything else?

It just seems there's always a religious spin on what people like me think they hear. I'm not asking for myself, this is purely just a general thought. Because I've had friends hear the same kind of things and they say that its demons or something like God, etc.

I'm genuinely curious about others thoughts on this, because my opinion is different since I have the disease. I don't know why I jump to that conclusion and it makes me curious. I mean, its not just the voices either. I started reading the bible, going to church, things that I would NEVER normally do.

Dear totoro

That was a very honest post from you and I'd like to say something helpful. Obviously you are in a difficult situation, and I don't know all of it so I might say something unhelpful. I'll ponder things today and maybe posted tomorrow.

The main point I'd make is that religious language, imagery and stories can be a perfectly appropriate way of understanding and coping with our lives. The scientific model is not the only way of doing so (and most of us have to rely on professionals, eg doctors, etc. to do so).

The other thing is that seeing life in religious terms, or at any rate in terms of myths and imagery, is a perfectly normal, human thing to do. Of course religious ideas can be toxic, misleading and unhelpful, but equally than can humane, healing and life affirming.

Let me piggyback a little on that. What you have experienced are auditory hallucinations. That's something most people are not going to be able to advise you about for lack of experience. So my suggestion would be to talk about this with a trusted professional councilor. I join JR in commending you for your honesty, but please be aware that religion is a volatile issue, and the Internet in an inherently unstable environment. I can vouch for JR, who is a good man and a great Christian, but not everyone you meet online is going to be like him. If your councilor isn't able to help, you may want to ask him or her for a referral to a clergyman with a background in psychology. Be sure to do this as a professional referral, though. I hope that helped. Good luck.

I agree with Jackson Richardson that "seeing life in religious terms, or at any rate in terms of myths and imagery, is a perfectly normal human thing to do".

As far as why "there's always a religious spin on what people like me think they hear", most of us put a religious spin on reality. We have to be "educated" (or brainwashed, socially constructed, taught) not to do that. The key idea is that from infancy we are able to perceive agency in what is around us. InspiringPhilosophy has a YouTube video summarizing the research done along these lines: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ii-bsrHB0o

The question still remains whether the voices you are hearing are a delusion or not. They might be, but I don't think the fact that you are hearing something in itself implies that what you are hearing is a delusion.

It could be the ones, like myself, who don't normally hear angels and demons are the ones who are not hearing as clearly as we might. Although, come to think of it, I suppose I do "hear" them, too. When I get up in the morning, I usually have ideas that pop into my head solving problems from the previous day or offering insights I don't think I came to by myself. I don't know if that is normal or not. I suppose it is. It has convinced me that muses exist.

Totoro, your post moved me, as did JR's and Pompey's replies. My dad passed away this Sunday. He was never a religious person, perhaps even a closet agnostic, but a few days before his death he told us he saw things like angels walking up the wall and opening a door in the ceiling. He used to mention these things to us in a very matter-of-fact way, and we thought it was the beginning of Alzheimers. Not that this has anything to do with your problem and I guess I'm posting only because Dad died two days back, but I sincerely hope you will be OK. Good luck!

I'm sure I speak for all of us in extending my deepest sympathies, dear Mona.

Thank you, Pompey. I really appreciate it.

Mona - I'm very sorry to hear that. Deepest sympathies.

Totoro - I'm still pondering.

Thank you all for your thoughts, I guess it's something I never considered asking a therapist. And I'd like to extend my condolences Mona. I'm sure your father is at peace. My grandmother had Alzheimers and I know how hard it can be to see them go through that. And thank you all for being kind in your responses, not many people on the internet have that curtesy anymore.

Nobody has directly answered your question why those with mental illness think religiously. My short answer is that all sorts of people have always thought in religious terms.

As regards your angels and demons – Do you hear voices in the same way as if someone was physically talking to you? If so, it is as Pompey says hallucinatory delusion and you should talk to your doctors about it.

But whatever the source, what do they actually say? If the demons, as you think of them, are telling you that you are no good and a failure, then that is almost certainly your own doubts and anxieties expressing themselves

So often nowadays we are encouraged to be positive at all costs and ignore or repress our fears. I suspect that ignoring them can only make them seep out. It can be sometimes that facing our fears make us able to cope with them.

I don’t know your situation and there is a danger I am giving you misleading ideas, but I hope it may be some help.

Totoro. First of all I'm going to give you my logical thoughts. I hope you won't be offended, I admire you posting on here, and the question you ask is very interesting.

Normally pressure waves are picked up by the ears and converted into "sound" in the brain. In some people the the brain experiences the same activity but without the stimulaion from soundwaves. I believe from what I have read, the voices are as real as when someone visible talks. However a person or a hundred people stood in the same room will hear nothing.

So logically the voices are created in your head. Logically everything they say is the result of what you have learned and experienced throughout your life. In the same way the strangest dreams we dream are our own, even if we can't account for them.

But the interesting point is the one you ask; why religion? Here the logical steps flounder. Yesno makes some interesting points above, but I would guess it is to do with social conditioning and the need for an explanation. In religion there is a ready made explanation particularly in the way we communicate with our unseen deity.

These are my first thoughts anyway.

Jackson - I hear them as clear as day as if they were real. They say stuff about hell, sometimes they tell me to harm myself or someone else because thats what God wants, etc. The angels on the other hand talk to me as though I am worthy of God - they say peaceful things, counteracting the other voices. Now, I'm on good meds for the most part so I would never act on them unless I stopped taking my meds completely I suppose. But I do appreciate your input and I don't think you said anything bad.

Prend - I am not offended. Your points are very interesting actually.

If it is any help I have different forms of epilepsy and experience people, some of which I know to be evil speaking to me as well as the sensation of being physically touched. Oddly enough, my neurologist can't confirm if it is epilepsy or mental illness unless I am tested while it is happening which is very hard to do. I think its epilepsy myself but as the meds I take are prescribed for bipolar I can't see what the hell the difference is anymore!

The voices I hear aren't the result of sounds coming in from the outside of my body through my ears. They are just ideas or words that pop into my mind. So I am wondering:

1) Are we talking about voices that originate as sounds external to one's body that no one else can hear? Or are they phrases that pop into one's mind without going through the ears? If they are the later then other people might not hear them.

2) Suppose they are phrases that just pop into one's mind. Where did they come from especially if they are telling you things you don't agree with or didn't know previously? For example, waking up and finding the answer to a problem you had yesterday being spoken to you and you saying to yourself, "Yeah, that should work."

3) Are what some people "hear" as thoughts popping into their heads much different from voices one hears as external to one's body but which no one else can hear? The main difference is the extent to which the "hearer" thinks the ears are involved.

I can only speak for myself, but its like outside voices coming in, like a person talking to me - not sounds or thoughts that just come into my head. Its as if an actual being is holding a conversation with me.

So I guess, I don't know that its anything other than mental illness that like others have said, may have been influenced in some way by religion or human experience. Sorry, it seems i've left people confused, if so, I apologize.

No you haven't left us confused. The whole area of mental health is highly confusing. No need to apologise.

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Originally Posted by totoro

I can only speak for myself, but its like outside voices coming in, like a person talking to me - not sounds or thoughts that just come into my head. Its as if an actual being is holding a conversation with me.

So I guess, I don't know that its anything other than mental illness that like others have said, may have been influenced in some way by religion or human experience. Sorry, it seems i've left people confused, if so, I apologize.

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I am sure the voices come from you. Our world is constructed entirely within our brain. And I still think they are drawing on your own experiencies. But the way the voices manifest themselves - as another person separate from you with a different agenda from you, is interesting and a bit frightening. That is something most people don't experience.

Totoro, your posts are far from confusing. I offer a few thoughts.

Contrary to Prendrelemick, I understand most people do hear voices that seem to come from outside but instantly correct each impression where evidence suggests otherwise. Moreover, they quickly forget each impression as unimportant, and get on with living. Maintaining perspective, moment by moment, is crucial for all of us.

The mentally ill tend to find correction and maintaining perspective more difficult through lack of sleep, exercise, sunlight and good food to sustain the body; substance abuse; trauma; and lack of resilience and imagination among other things. Maintaining a healthy body fosters a healthy mind. (Recent research on the connection between diet, gut bacteria and brain function is just one example.) With such gross disadvantages, all manner of healthy and stimulating activities - mental, physical and social interactions - are increasing supplanted by unhealthy introspection, including the dwelling on voices.

With these disadvantages, many attractive paths close before the mentally ill. It is scarcely surprising that they behave in atypical ways. Access to religion is one pathway still open and, by no means, the worst. And religion's bread and butter is good and evil, angels and demons. Much of the Bible, for instance, is brimming with flights of the imagination, including the hearing of voices.

Totoro,
Just a few thoughts, I hope they will help somehow.
You aren´t confusing at all, on the contrary, you are very lucid and very brave about your condition.
And be it though medication, therapy, religion or even art (you describe yourself as "starving artist" in your profile) you have the strong will to help yourself and a have been able to do a lot for yourself already. Congratulations!
As for the religious content of your voices, there are two things that occur to me. It´s certainly not a conscious choice. There are different narratives: the alien narrative, the political narrative and others. I believe the religious narrative is very usual because people know the stories, even if they don´t practice the religion. And also because religion offers solace and protection against aflictions that escape the control of reason. I mean, there are the devils, who have to be reigned in, but there are the angels of light too offering their help.

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Originally Posted by Gladys

Totoro, your posts are far from confusing. I offer a few thoughts.

Contrary to Prendrelemick, I understand most people do hear voices that seem to come from outside but instantly correct each impression where evidence suggests otherwise. Moreover, they quickly forget each impression as unimportant, and get on with living.

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I didn't realize that. I have a running commentry in my head in my head at almost all times. planning, re evaluating situations, wishing something happened differently, holding imaginery conversations ect, ect, ect. But it is always me.

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Originally Posted by Gladys

The mentally ill tend to find correction and maintaining perspective more difficult through lack of sleep, exercise, sunlight and good food to sustain the body; substance abuse; trauma; and lack of resilience and imagination among other things. Maintaining a healthy body fosters a healthy mind. (Recent research on the connection between diet, gut bacteria and brain function is just one example.) With such gross disadvantages, all manner of healthy and stimulating activities - mental, physical and social interactions - are increasing supplanted by unhealthy introspection, including the dwelling on voices.

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Although I have not been diagnosed as mentally ill there is this chatter in my head. As prendrelemick suggests, I am modern enough to assume it is "me" creating this chatter, but then sometimes I wonder where the ideas come from. These ideas seem like they originate from some place "other" than me. For example, I "heard" one morning that I would get a good idea today and then later I did get an idea that kept me busy for weeks. So the chatter is making predictions about the future chatter. From my perspective, believing in muses, angels and even demons is rather easy.

However, I have noticed that the chatter is more positive when I am rested, as you point out, Gladys. I already turn off the advice of this chatter when I am tired. I have also tried reciting phrases, or mantrams as Eknath Easwaran calls them. This seems to make the chatter more positive, for me at any rate. Also, consciously maintaining a good posture, that is, keeping the back straight when sitting or walking, helps, too. The idea to try this came from Will Johnson who incorporates "Rolfing" into his meditation practices.

In my case, I don't want to turn this chatter off. I look forward to it. I only want to keep it positive.

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Originally Posted by Delta40

If it is any help I have different forms of epilepsy and experience people, some of which I know to be evil speaking to me as well as the sensation of being physically touched. Oddly enough, my neurologist can't confirm if it is epilepsy or mental illness unless I am tested while it is happening which is very hard to do. I think its epilepsy myself but as the meds I take are prescribed for bipolar I can't see what the hell the difference is anymore!

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That sounds distressing, Delta. You have always struck me as a plucky and resilient sort of person. Perhaps your situation has made you stronger. I apologize if that sounds presumptuous, by the way. It's always easy to find the bright side of someone else's problems. I wish you well in any case.

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Originally Posted by prendrelemick

I didn't realize that. I have a running commentry in my head in my head at almost all times. planning, re evaluating situations, wishing something happened differently, holding imaginery conversations ect, ect, ect. But it is always me.

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If most people hear voices from time to time, billions, like yourself, apparently do not. And for most who do, it's no big deal unless you're a prophet, a saint.

Again, thank you everyone for your thoughts and experiences on the matter, Delta - I hope you can find some peace in your condition, but just know you aren't alone. Danik, thank you for the compliments. I do appreciate art very much.