Where Do I Go to Talk about My Writing?

I hope you'll all forgive me, but I'm just going to jump right into this.

As a writer it is occassionally pretty helpful to get other people's opinions on something you've written, an idea you've thought of, etc. Not to mention it can be rather fun and exciting to tell people about your latest idea, show them your latest bit of prose, etc. But I'm always rather worried, considering how important my writing is to me, that pieces of prose or ideas will be stolen by other people. Now when it's just a paragraph, that doesn't bother me too much. But when it's a chapter or, especially, an idea or set of ideas that bothers me tremendously. It bothers me to the point that I have mostly stopped saying anything specific about my writing to anyone, even when I think that would be helpful and even to people I've known for a long time in real life (especially since they're usually writers themselves).

So I was wondering, does anyone else have this problem? And if you do, do you know of any way to get passed it? Such as some sort of legal safeguard which will protect the copyright of whatever you say? A contract that another person can sign if necessary?

When working for companies I have had to sign non-disclosure agreements or acknowledge that my employer owns any intellectual property I might have created on the job in exchange for compensation I receive. To enforce this they usually provide their own computers on which that intellectual property is created. To make sure I am in compliance and not to compromise anything I might do outside that employment, I put nothing personal on their computers and make sure they are locked when I am not using them. I would also not attempt to access their data with my own computer. I also don't attempt creating derivative works on my personal computer of intellectual property of that company.

I sometimes post poems on places like Lit Net. I am not worried that they will be stolen. In a sense posting something with a date stamp establishes a priority like a publication would.

Other people's opinions are valuable. They need to be cited if they are used to give proper credit to the author. I would be more concerned with someone else thinking I stole something they contributed than I am about someone stealing something I might have thought of. That might be because I haven't thought of anything that I suspect is original enough or valuable enough to be worried about protecting.

I agree with YesNo that posting on this Forum is probably safe since it has a date stamp. I've seen some people use the copyright symbol © when posting here. I'm not sure that placing that symbol would provide as much or more legal protection than having the date stamp.

I've really never worried much about anyone stealing my writing or ideas, but then I've always been a bit naïve when it comes to trusting other people. Anyway, I would think that somehow attaching a date stamp to your writing/ideas would be sufficient to establish authorship. There's probably a number of simple ways of doing that, perhaps something like just emailing your writing to yourself.

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Originally Posted by YesNo

When working for companies I have had to sign non-disclosure agreements or acknowledge that my employer owns any intellectual property I might have created on the job in exchange for compensation I receive. To enforce this they usually provide their own computers on which that intellectual property is created. To make sure I am in compliance and not to compromise anything I might do outside that employment, I put nothing personal on their computers and make sure they are locked when I am not using them. I would also not attempt to access their data with my own computer. I also don't attempt creating derivative works on my personal computer of intellectual property of that company.

I sometimes post poems on places like Lit Net. I am not worried that they will be stolen. In a sense posting something with a date stamp establishes a priority like a publication would.

Other people's opinions are valuable. They need to be cited if they are used to give proper credit to the author. I would be more concerned with someone else thinking I stole something they contributed than I am about someone stealing something I might have thought of. That might be because I haven't thought of anything that I suspect is original enough or valuable enough to be worried about protecting.

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Well, I've spent many years of my life creating some of the things I'm working on and some of them I really like. So certainly I am worried about that and not about any contribution they may have made, because for one thing usually it's only opinions on what I've done and secondly there's usually not much of a record or anything like that.

But anyway, so you're suggesting what? That I make friends of mine sign a non-disclosure agreement before they can hear about my stuff?

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Originally Posted by 108 fountains

I agree with YesNo that posting on this Forum is probably safe since it has a date stamp. I've seen some people use the copyright symbol © when posting here. I'm not sure that placing that symbol would provide as much or more legal protection than having the date stamp.

I've really never worried much about anyone stealing my writing or ideas, but then I've always been a bit naïve when it comes to trusting other people. Anyway, I would think that somehow attaching a date stamp to your writing/ideas would be sufficient to establish authorship. There's probably a number of simple ways of doing that, perhaps something like just emailing your writing to yourself.

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I'm not actually talking about posting on forums necessarily here, more about talking to people I know IRL about this stuff. I'm always worried that if me and one of those people ever drifted apart, got into a huge fight, etc. that they could use this information against me or if they just didn't care enough about my relationship with them and ripped me off.

Well, that may very well be true for a chapter in its entirety. But you can't just copyright an idea in this way, unfortunately. And trust me, I've looked into that.

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Originally Posted by OneOnOne1162

Well, I've spent many years of my life creating some of the things I'm working on and some of them I really like. So certainly I am worried about that and not about any contribution they may have made, because for one thing usually it's only opinions on what I've done and secondly there's usually not much of a record or anything like that.

But anyway, so you're suggesting what? That I make friends of mine sign a non-disclosure agreement before they can hear about my stuff?

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Some couples have pre-nuptials to protect them in case something goes wrong with the marriage.

Personally, I rely on forums such as this where the chit-chat helps inspire ideas. I am not worried about someone stealing anything.

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Originally Posted by YesNo

Some couples have pre-nuptials to protect them in case something goes wrong with the marriage.

Personally, I rely on forums such as this where the chit-chat helps inspire ideas. I am not worried about someone stealing anything.

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Wouldn't I need a lawyer for that and whatnot?

Probably. I am not sure that it is worth the bother. It is also not just someone stealing from you, but you stealing from those offering their opinions to you, or worst, simply their belief that you have stolen something. It goes both ways.

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Originally Posted by YesNo

Probably. I am not sure that it is worth the bother. It is also not just someone stealing from you, but you stealing from those offering their opinions to you, or worst, simply their belief that you have stolen something. It goes both ways.

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Well, but a contract can say pretty much anything you both agree on, no? It doesn't necessarily have to be a standard non-disclosure. But in other words you don't know how I would go about doing this?

Funny you should ask that because I always thought that without copyright protection our works were very well safe until one day in 2009 my half-finished first novel was lifted. Along with that unfinished erotic horror thriller were a few short stories I wrote for practice and some tattoo designs I drew up myself. Although I am confident that the writing was as good as I could do it, I doubt that what I authored was plagiarized. It was quite the blow to my attitude to say the least as I used a great deal of time and energy writing it.

I suggest you attend a writer's workshop or a literature convention. There's plenty of them all around the United States. Other than that if you don't have family or friends who are interested in reading and critiquing your work there are literary agents who do so for a nominal fee as side work, you'll have to look around on the internet to find them. I personally tend to not be so self-conscious of my writing as you describe yourself. Perhaps if the ideas bother you to that degree maybe you should choose to write about another subject matter not so personal and effectual to your well-being. Using sensitive material to draw readers in is alright, but if it's going to engulf you in neurosis I think that it's better if you let it go and try something on the lighter side of life.

I can say I've had my stuff stolen, TWICE! I was googling a story and saw the name listed but half of the text was in Chinese! I clicked on that link, and found the story was illustrated as well! Three photos were added to the story She Ain't You. They were pirating The Guardian too. The site was called Yee Yang or something like that and was a sharing site used by Chinese. Since it wasn't just one person or company you had no particular person to sue. Then they did page one of one of my imitation Sherlock Homes stories.

Seems like when someone lifts your stuff internationally you have less options for justice. So me, I'm the idiot puts in the copywrite sign now. Fat lot of good it will do me.

The internet is a new frontier folks. It's wild and woolly and often without justice. It's the good, the bad, and the ugly of our modern world. You're a writing-from-the heart gambler, and you take your chances. If you're too chicken to take them, you take your best shot.

https://youtu.be/h1PfrmCGFnk The Good, the bad, the Ugly

Here's something about copyright in the 19th century: http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/...pva/pva75.html

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Originally Posted by New Secret

Funny you should ask that because I always thought that without copyright protection our works were very well safe until one day in 2009 my half-finished first novel was lifted. Along with that unfinished erotic horror thriller were a few short stories I wrote for practice and some tattoo designs I drew up myself. Although I am confident that the writing was as good as I could do it, I doubt that what I authored was plagiarized. It was quite the blow to my attitude to say the least as I used a great deal of time and energy writing it.

I suggest you attend a writer's workshop or a literature convention. There's plenty of them all around the United States. Other than that if you don't have family or friends who are interested in reading and critiquing your work there are literary agents who do so for a nominal fee as side work, you'll have to look around on the internet to find them. I personally tend to not be so self-conscious of my writing as you describe yourself. Perhaps if the ideas bother you to that degree maybe you should choose to write about another subject matter not so personal and effectual to your well-being. Using sensitive material to draw readers in is alright, but if it's going to engulf you in neurosis I think that it's better if you let it go and try something on the lighter side of life.

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Well, I don't live in the United States... but aside from that, why would my ideas be any more protected by any of those options?

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Originally Posted by Steven Hunley

I can say I've had my stuff stolen, TWICE! I was googling a story and saw the name listed but half of the text was in Chinese! I clicked on that link, and found the story was illustrated as well! Three photos were added to the story She Ain't You. They were pirating The Guardian too. The site was called Yee Yang or something like that and was a sharing site used by Chinese. Since it wasn't just one person or company you had no particular person to sue. Then they did page one of one of my imitation Sherlock Homes stories.

Seems like when someone lifts your stuff internationally you have less options for justice. So me, I'm the idiot puts in the copywrite sign now. Fat lot of good it will do me.

The internet is a new frontier folks. It's wild and woolly and often without justice. It's the good, the bad, and the ugly of our modern world. You're a writing-from-the heart gambler, and you take your chances. If you're too chicken to take them, you take your best shot.

https://youtu.be/h1PfrmCGFnk The Good, the bad, the Ugly

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I'm not posting my stuff publically on the internet... so not sure how this is relevant.

Also, I'd say if you really wanted to you probably could sue whatever corporation was making money off of it. As soon as something is on the internet and clearly under your name it's copyrighted. You'd have to get a lawyer and whatnot of course, and it'd be difficult but you could. Definitely if they were making money off of it. Of course, whether that would be worth it in your case is quite another question.

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Originally Posted by YesNo

Here's something about copyright in the 19th century: http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/...pva/pva75.html

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The 19th century? I think you're a few centuries behind... >.<

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Originally Posted by OneOnOne1162

I hope you'll all forgive me, but I'm just going to jump right into this.

As a writer it is occassionally pretty helpful to get other people's opinions on something you've written, an idea you've thought of, etc. Not to mention it can be rather fun and exciting to tell people about your latest idea, show them your latest bit of prose, etc. But I'm always rather worried, considering how important my writing is to me, that pieces of prose or ideas will be stolen by other people. Now when it's just a paragraph, that doesn't bother me too much. But when it's a chapter or, especially, an idea or set of ideas that bothers me tremendously. It bothers me to the point that I have mostly stopped saying anything specific about my writing to anyone, even when I think that would be helpful and even to people I've known for a long time in real life (especially since they're usually writers themselves).

So I was wondering, does anyone else have this problem? And if you do, do you know of any way to get passed it? Such as some sort of legal safeguard which will protect the copyright of whatever you say? A contract that another person can sign if necessary?

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I simply wouldn´t put anything I intended to publish or that is otherwise relevant to me in the internet. Once it is there you lose your control over it very generally speaking. I would just seek the opinion of a few very chosen friends.

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Originally Posted by OneOnOne1162

The 19th century? I think you're a few centuries behind... >.<

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Yes. It is just to show that the problem is old. There is also an example there about Dickens suing but not recovering his court costs.

We are worrying about other people stealing our ideas even if they do not think they have and we want to protect ourselves. The other side of the problem is how do we protect ourselves against people who claim we have stolen their ideas even when we think we have not. The area is grey given the internet where ideas are all over the place.

Were I actually making any money on my writing, I would be more worried about someone making a dubious claim that I was the thief.

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Originally Posted by Danik 2016

I simply wouldn´t put anything I intended to publish or that is otherwise relevant to me in the internet. Once it is there you lose your control over it very generally speaking. I would just seek the opinion of a few very chosen friends.

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That's already what I was talking about... But not all people you think are friends end up being trustworthy and it's always possible to have a falling out with someone who was a genuine friend and have any knowledge they have bite you in the ***. Or hell, they could unknowingly work your ideas into their stuff or something.

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Originally Posted by YesNo

Yes. It is just to show that the problem is old. There is also an example there about Dickens suing but not recovering his court costs.

We are worrying about other people stealing our ideas even if they do not think they have and we want to protect ourselves. The other side of the problem is how do we protect ourselves against people who claim we have stolen their ideas even when we think we have not. The area is grey given the internet where ideas are all over the place.

Were I actually making any money on my writing, I would be more worried about someone making a dubious claim that I was the thief.

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Well, I knew that....

And I agree. But I wasn't really talking about the internet, I was talking about people I know in real life who are also writers.

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Originally Posted by OneOnOne1162

Well, I knew that....

And I agree. But I wasn't really talking about the internet, I was talking about people I know in real life who are also writers.

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What benefit are you receiving from showing your work to other writers?

I can see showing your work to publishers. I can see putting some of your work on a blog or author's platform.

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Originally Posted by YesNo

What benefit are you receiving from showing your work to other writers?

I can see showing your work to publishers. I can see putting some of your work on a blog or author's platform.

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For criticism. As well as input on what they like and don't like.

Do you offer them criticism on their work in return?

Some sites offer opportunities to "workshop" prose and poetry. I don't think this is all that beneficial but it does give the writer a chance to see what others are producing. I remember on one poetry site, some participants did not want a reader to offer explicit suggestions for changes in a poem, because then the author would have to credit that reader if they took the reader's advice and used that change.

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Originally Posted by YesNo

Do you offer them criticism on their work in return?

Some sites offer opportunities to "workshop" prose and poetry. I don't think this is all that beneficial but it does give the writer a chance to see what others are producing. I remember on one poetry site, some participants did not want a reader to offer explicit suggestions for changes in a poem, because then the author would have to credit that reader if they took the reader's advice and used that change.

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Yes, I do.

That wouldn't really help me... I think you're completely missing the point of my original question. My problem is not that I don't have people already, real-life people, that can criticise my work. It's that I'm concerned about those people potentially using my ideas in their own work and me not being able to do anything against it if it happens.

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Originally Posted by OneOnOne1162

Yes, I do.

That wouldn't really help me... I think you're completely missing the point of my original question. My problem is not that I don't have people already, real-life people, that can criticise my work. It's that I'm concerned about those people potentially using my ideas in their own work and me not being able to do anything against it if it happens.

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I suppose they could. You could use ideas from their writings as well. They could also modify your ideas to make them look new.

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Originally Posted by YesNo

I suppose they could. You could use ideas from their writings as well. They could also modify your ideas to make them look new.

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Uuuum... yeah... I don't want that. Which is what this thread was all about, finding a way to not have that happen.

One way you could avoid the problem is not to show your work to other writers until after it is published either through a publisher or by yourself online in a blog or author's platform. Then you could ask them for a review.

If you think about it, would engineers working on a new invention share details of their inventions with other engineers from other companies prior to getting a patent on their inventions? Admittedly, the research costs are higher for these people, but the problems they face are similar. I think they would keep their work secret until the patents were approved.

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Originally Posted by YesNo

One way you could avoid the problem is not to show your work to other writers until after it is published either through a publisher or by yourself online in a blog or author's platform. Then you could ask them for a review.

If you think about it, would engineers working on a new invention share details of their inventions with other engineers from other companies prior to getting a patent on their inventions? Admittedly, the research costs are higher for these people, but the problems they face are similar. I think they would keep their work secret until the patents were approved.

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Yeah, that doesn't work at all... The whole point of the criticism is to make it better, not to just have it out there.

I'm reading a book by Martha Maeda, "The Complete Guide to Writing & Publishing Your First E-Book". It seems well-written overall and chapter three offers a lot of advice about copyrights and legal issues. In chapter two she talks about "critique-partners" which is what I think you are concerned with.

As I understand it, if you don't trust someone you are working with, you should find someone else.

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Originally Posted by YesNo

I'm reading a book by Martha Maeda, "The Complete Guide to Writing & Publishing Your First E-Book". It seems well-written overall and chapter three offers a lot of advice about copyrights and legal issues. In chapter two she talks about "critique-partners" which is what I think you are concerned with.

As I understand it, if you don't trust someone you are working with, you should find someone else.

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Alright, might take a look at that.

And well it's no "partner" or "partners." Just friends who happen to be writers. And it has little to do with trust right now. Just because I'm friends with a person now doesn't mean that the person will be my friend forever. It's practical. I wouldn't trust anyone with this knowledge.

Since you're talking about an informal social matter rather than a formal business matter, and completely hypothetical possibilities to boot, I think you're just going to have to weigh the trade-off for yourself. Potential quality of advice offered by friends and resulting benefit to you vs. potential theft of ideas and resulting harm to you. Which is more likely?

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Originally Posted by Calidore

Since you're talking about an informal social matter rather than a formal business matter, and completely hypothetical possibilities to boot, I think you're just going to have to weigh the trade-off for yourself. Potential quality of advice offered by friends and resulting benefit to you vs. potential theft of ideas and resulting harm to you. Which is more likely?

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I pretty much already figured that... That's not really what my question pertained to. It was a way to overcome this problem.

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Originally Posted by OneOnOne1162

Well, I don't live in the United States... but aside from that, why would my ideas be any more protected by any of those options?

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Your ideas will not be safer with any of those things I listed. Those were merely suggestions in helping you get feedback on your works.

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Originally Posted by New Secret

Your ideas will not be safer with any of those things I listed. Those were merely suggestions in helping you get feedback on your works.

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Well, I mean that was kind of my question... I already have people I can go to for feedback, that wasn't the problem.

Seems like you're trying to overtime the problem of a coin having mutually exclusive heads or tails options. The only way to get feedback is to show your work to people. The only way to prevent plagiarism is to never show your work to anyone. I very much doubt your friends are going to be willing to read and sign an NDA for the privilege of doing you a favor; they will more likely be insulted by the request.

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Originally Posted by Calidore

Seems like you're trying to overtime the problem of a coin having mutually exclusive heads or tails options. The only way to get feedback is to show your work to people. The only way to prevent plagiarism is to never show your work to anyone. I very much doubt your friends are going to be willing to read and sign an NDA for the privilege of doing you a favor; they will more likely be insulted by the request.

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I vehemently disagree that it's an issue that's strictly got two options. Also, you don't know my friends very well. I've talked to at least one of them about this since I posted this and he said he would be more than willing to sign a contract like that, protecting both of us.