I should find an english professor to talk to... but oh well for now.
Read the brothers karamazov, what should I read next? OR should I just stop reading for a while and start masturbating instead?
Isn't TBK supposed to be basically the best novel?
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I should find an english professor to talk to... but oh well for now.
Read the brothers karamazov, what should I read next? OR should I just stop reading for a while and start masturbating instead?
Isn't TBK supposed to be basically the best novel?
Among Russian novels, my experience tells me that Anna Karenina is the best, not TBK. In world literature, my favorites include Ulysses, The Tale of Genji, Pride and Prejudice, The Dream of the Red Chamber, Middlemarch, Brideshead Revisited, Tess of the D'Urbervilles, Snow Country, and The Great Gatsby. Many of those I prefer to TBK.
Also, Don Quixote (which I have not read yet) is often considered to be one of, or the, greatest novel. If you're lucky, stlukesguild and mortalterror will be along shortly to smother you with lists :D
EDIT: oh, and yes, talk to a literature prof.
DOUBLE-EDIT: and if you're even luckier, JBI will also drop by to chastise you for emphasizing the novel over poetry.
I started reading through Anna Karenina but I'm not sure that it compares with The Brothers Karamazov. I'm under the impression that the only really redeemable section of the book is the first part. . . I plan to give it another try though.
I'll have to look up some of those books.
I also thought The Idiot outstanding.Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenson
Have you considered Henry James? I loved The Golden Bowl, for its interpersonal portrayal.
I'll have to check out The Idiot. .. I had it at one point but then I put it on a desk in the hall and put a sign over it that said free books and someone took it.
I have The Bostonians here and also Portrait of a Lady. . .so far I have more interest in POAL.
Just curious how do you sum up your experience of reading this novel?Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenson
at which point did you decide you would carry on reading it?
about chapter five or book five: Pro and contra
did you find there is a kind religious malaise about it?
the poem prose for example:
''Why hast Thou come now to hinder us? For Thou hast come to hinder us, and Thou knowest that... We are working not with Thee but with him [Satan]... We took from him what Thou didst reject with scorn, that last gift he offered Thee, showing Thee all the kingdoms of the earth. We took from him Rome and the sword of Caesar, and proclaimed ourselves sole rulers of the earth... We shall triumph and shall be Caesars, and then we shall plan the universal happiness of man''
it is a rather biblicaly heavy a bitter taste between god and the man. I wonder why?
the kissing on the lips is also significant. it reminds of the knight Templars that is one of their rituals. Jesus kissing Ivan on the lips then Alyosha kissing him too. the two brothers Kissing. incest? maybe.
I will try and summarize my experience, but maybe I should read it again.
I think I felt almost right away that I would continue with this book til the end...the contrasting characters--a drunken father, an ascetic elder, a son who is in the middle of it--and the contrasting elements of the monastic life and the indulgent life was highly interesting. And the whole description of the geography of everything was enticing--a monastery up the road, the whores who were in the neighborhood and stirring up things between Mitya and Karamazov, Dimitry and Alyosha ducking in the shrubberies. The relation of the locations was first rate and I trusted that Dostoevsky was going to deliver. Especially by the folksy way he would begin describing things, I could sense right away that Dostoevsky was not going for anything except pure expression...and that's what the book said on the back... something like... ''If I could just finish this book, then I will have expressed myself fully and can die happily. . . "
I certainly cannot offer a precise analysis... the stuff about God was a little offsetting, but I think it was necessary during that time because so much of people's lives and ancestry were invested in Religion whereas today it'd be obsolete material. The extremes that everyone was living under...intellectuals, monastics, indulgent drunks, dirt poor people... the scene where the guy crumpled up the money was great stuff. That and the scene where the dog is returned is probably the most memorable. The build up from Dosteovsky... at the end of the day it's the artistry of the writer that delivers the book and that's what makes it great, the story telling.
I could probably benefit from a rereading of TBK as I was very young when I read it, but I have too many other books that must be read for the first time first!
I vaguely recall complex characters, religious references, an intriguing ending and a general darkness about the book.
I think I need to put down Russian literature for awhile or Russian masterpieces at least and find something light and airy...probably some British literature would do the trick, something in my own native tongue. I have A Room with a View, The Way of all Flesh, some Henry James which is not British. Any other suggestions? I think that's it.. one needs contrast. You can't just focus on another Russian masterpiece after reading one. . .I'm switching to British. I tried Anna Karenina...but it's like...Tolstoy is trying to do a masterpiece and some of it is contrived. And yes Dostoevsky was contrived at some parts, but you put up with it because you trust the artistry. . . I don't have that faith in Tolstoy if it's not a short story.
I also tried Dead Souls...but am not feeling it. I'm going to try ARWAV, I think it's working for me. I think British literature is my joint at the end of the day, I just have to realize it once and for all. I already read The Way of All Flesh and at the time considered it hands down to be my favorite work. I think I would enjoy Trollope, but have not given it a shot yet. ..maybe Dickens too, who I've not read.
Have you given Kafka a shot?
Stick with Russian lit-Ivan Turgenev will give you some positive news and then when you get to Chekhov, you'll be reaching for the vodka and a revolver.
you're right, maybe I should stick with Russian for a while. . . British literature is boring.
I've read Lermontov, but no I haven't checked out Turgenev or Chekhov. .. kafka yes I've read through the short stories, but could not get on with Amerika or whichever it's called. Kafka is boring too. Maybe I'm still not aligned with the art of reading literature. . . I'm watching House right now instead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenson
I give up trying to help you.
what happened is that I lost the art of reading, which I assume happens often in modern times. To read Karamazov was a major upheaval, effort filled, which I don't think good reading should be. Good reading should not come of effort, I don't think.
But I'm eating a lot of vegetables now and I have a road bike, and I'm gonna renounce my mom's cooking, so I can regain the art by living a balanced life.
In my current mind which is still unbalanced I say Brit Literature is rubbish, but soon maybe I will say British Lit is NOT rubbish.
I've read both. The former I read months ago and enjoyed every moment: an exquisite ending.Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenson
really? I actually just read the first 2 chapters of Portrait of a Lady and I plan to go on because all the talk of american girls and european endeavors is enticing.
Nah, he'll just tell you to read his book, or some book he's "the expert" on so he can sound good when he explains it to you. You could end up reading anything from the latest unreadable text of French Critical Theory to "Wind in the Willows"Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenson
So you might as well stick to recommendations made here! I'm re-reading Anna Karenina at the moment and it is very good. From my experience, it's toss up between it and War & Peace for "the best" of the Russian novels. Reading it back to back with BK might be a bit "heavy", why not try some Chekhov short stories, if you fancy more Russian, or some Dickens if you want to stick with novels. You might need a laugh after Dostoevsky, so try Pickwick Papers. Don Quixote and Tom Jones are also superb, humorous novels.
Lykren - that's a heavy list - you must read Don Quixote now before you get so heavy you sink into the earth... It's a good list though, I recently re-read Middlemarch, and that is, surely, a contender for "greatest" ever. I also recently re-read Pride and Prejudice, Brideshead Revisited, Tess of the D'Urbervilles, and The Great Gatsby. All superb! Like you I prefer many of these to BK. I detest Ulysses. I haven't read The Tale of Genji or The Dream of the Red Chamber... bit afraid of them. Are they difficult? Haven't heard of Snow Country.
Yes, always worth giving a great novel a second chance. I found Don Quixote unreadable on first attempt, now it's in my "top five". I can see there are things in Anna K that might bother people after the first section... to much to-ing a fro-ing between Anna & Vronsky, Levin harping on too much about farming, but if you just wallow in it and don't become impatient because of the lack of action, or lack of philosophical fireworks, the magic starts to work. There are Dostoevskian elements in there, Levin's slow-burn consciousness of death, and its impact on his work and love life is remarkable, amongst many other things. Tolstoy was deeply into Schopenhauer at the time of writing, it might help to read something of Schopenhauer before reading the novel again... try Bryan Magee's intellectual biography. It might make the novel more interesting for you, as you are obviously into "dark philosophy". Anyway, the kittens are play-fighting next door and I must go and watch them... so funny! Keep it light sometimes...Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenson
What the Dickens! You've not read Dickens? Lucky you, what a lot to look forward to. Dostoevsky really rated Dickens:Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenson
http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/...s/gredina.html
"Room with a View" may be my favourite short 20th century novel... just pipping Brideshead and Great Gatsby. So why not try that first, as you have it? But get onto Dickens quick, Wordsworth classics have cheap and cheerful editions, best bang for buck in the universe... start with Nicholas Nickleby, Pickwick, Oliver, or David Copperfield and not the obvious "Tale of Two cities" to get the full power of Dickens' humour and verve (although Tale is good...) Trollope really isn't in the same class, a bit dull beside Dickens, even beside Forster. Readable though.... but to be read after the *really* good ones (Dickens, Eliot, Austen, Brontes, Hardy...)... and only if you then have a real taste for English Victorian novelists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenson
Well that's just silly. Those sort of 'objective' statements tend to be such. How much British Literature are you actually aware of? How much have you read? Are we talking poetry, drama, novels, short stories or non-fiction?
Turgenev's Fathers & Sons would give you somewhat of a reprieve from the seriousness of TBK. It's a generational story and contains some good Russian history in it to boot.
I'l second the Chekhov recommendations by suggesting the short novels 'Three Years' and 'My Life', both of which can be read as rather dark.
Genji and Red Chamber are long (especially the latter) but Genji is about the length of W&P and much better, at least in the Tyler translation. Nothing to be afraid of really, I can guarantee you they aren't another couple of Ulysses. Genji is one of my all-time favorites, it's exquisitely written.Quote:
Originally Posted by mal4mac
Snow Country is a haunting tale of a very strange kind of love. Like Genji, it's delicately executed, but with an undercurrent of powerful emotion.
There are three noted full translations of Tale of Genji. How do you decide?
http://celestialkitsune.wordpress.co...tale-of-genji/
I preferred Seidensticker's translations from that page, and a few others I looked at. Plus Everyman hardback is nicer than Penguin. Also, the greatest difficulty appears to be names:
"almost none of the characters in the original text are given explicit names. The characters are instead referred to by their function or role (e.g. Minister of the Left), an honorific (e.g. His Excellency), or their relation to other characters (e.g. Heir Apparent), which changes as the novel progresses... Modern readers and translators have used various nicknames to keep track of the many characters." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tale_of_GenjiWith
Seidensticker just replaces the shifting honorifics by names, saving one the bother of making up your own nicknames, and keeping track of changing honorifics. Seems a reasonable thing to do, for someone just wanting a good read, with minimal hacking through scholarship...
Quote:
Originally Posted by mal4mac
It's purely subjective. If you've read about all three versions and decided that Seidensticker's writing and translation philosophy agree with you, then you did it right.
Yes, the names (or lack thereof) are the tricky part. I read half of Waley's, then finished it with Tyler's. He has very good footnotes which keep everything pretty clear and straightforward. The other important thing to consider is the quality of the poem translations, which is another thing Tyler stood out for. He kept their allusive quality and used footnotes to explain the allusions. But if that seems too intrusive to you, and you prefer Seidensticker's version, I know he can do an excellent job - he did Snow Country as well, which had a fantastic style.
EDIT: Just saw Calidore's post. I agree, in the end try whatever translation works best for you in the samples given. If you really like it, you can always try another version later.
A good rule is to limit yourself to one or two Russian classics a year. After a heavy classic I usually switch to something lighter like a detective. If you want to read Dickens I can advice "A Tale of Two Cities", which grabs you from the first sentence.
I see what you're saying about not overdosing on classics. . .I'm hoping, in a way to keep overdosing on classics and try and blow my mind.
But I'm about half way through The Portrait of a Lady and so far I find it compelling.
Once you finish the novel, you might wish to consider my take on it: http://www.online-literature.com/for...anything-wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenson
Wordeater didn't say "don't overdose on classics". (Is that possible?) She suggested limiting your encounters with *Russian* classics and heavy classics. A good suggestion, but I think she goes too far... two Dostoevsky novels a year is enough... but you might also throw in a Tolstoy or Turgenev or two. I don't think that would be too damaging.
There are many detective & thriller classics; you don't need to read trash to go lighter. "A Tale of Two Cities" is Dickens' most Russian novel... epic scope, big ideas, lack of humour... Try Pickwick Papers to get away from the Russians... that's very English & very funny... guaranteed to ease a blown mind.
Two break things up why not read some 20th-century Russian classics?:
The Master and Margarita — Mikhail Bulgakov
Life and Fate — Vasily Grossman
Both are masterpieces.