In July, we will be reading For Whom the Bells Tolls by Hemingway.
Please share your comments and thoughts in this thread.
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In July, we will be reading For Whom the Bells Tolls by Hemingway.
Please share your comments and thoughts in this thread.
I bought a copy today. Flicking through it, the first thing I noticed is it has a lot of dialogue, sometimes pages of it.
That is one of the aspects of Hemingway's writing that I think sometimes causes certain mixed feelings in people about him. Personally it is something I quite enjoy about reading him. There is a certain brevity or minimalism to the way he writes which I appreciate.
I find that he is able to convey a scene quite well and really bring a moment to life without the use of excess words. I sometimes take issue with authors that are too verbose. But Hemingway knows how to really utilize the bear essentials in a way I find quite poignant. I believe he also knows how to convey human emotion very well.
In this book there is a certain abrupt, sort of matter-of-fact feel to the writing that I enjoy.
One thing which somewhat baffles me about this book is Hemingway's use of thee and thou's it clearly does not fit in with the books time setting, and the use of it appears to be somewhat inconsistent.
It has to do with the translation of the Spanish dialect. Either that or it is a great satire on the notion of well spokeness.
Of all the Hemingway I have read this book has the best characters. Pablo is wonderful, as is his wife.
I was wondering if it had something to do with the books namesake by John Donne
That is certainly a possibility. I'm trying to remember (and will have to look up) whether Robert Jordan uses the archaic as well, or is it just the Spanish rebels.
At first I thought it was just the Spanish rebels but then in Chapter 4 I noticed that Robert Jordan spoke in the archaic as well.
I haven't started reading the book yet, but I looked at the first few pages to find out how many chapters were in it. I see the book title came from a John Donne poem, the same one about no man being an island.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I have to say that I just loved this:
"I have never heard such a tone of voice. It was grayer than a morning without sunrise"
I think that is one of the ways in which Hemingway can say so much within so few words. To me that one scentence conveys such a power of emotion. I find there is such a depth of feeling within this novel.
I have started reading it now. I think it's the first book I have read that is deliberately grammatically incorrect to suggest that they are speaking a foreign language. For example, there was a passage spoken by General Golz which was rather ungrammatical, but then you would expect some difficulty in understanding when the speaker is Russian, the listener is American (presumably) and neither are communicating in their native language. Another example was when Robert Jordan replies to Pablo about another bomb maker, Kashkin, "He is dead since April". I suppose it was written that way to reflect Spanish grammar. I am guessing Spanish is similar to French in that perfect tense of to die is formed with to be rather that to have.
I wondered about the advanced age of Anselmo. 68 seems quite an age to be carrying boxes of explosive up mountainsides. I heard a radio programme once which discussed how some Spanish civil war veterans continued fighting against the Nazis in the French Resistance during WW2. One of the British officers sent to coordinate them remarked how they were often not young, often in their fifties. I know some septuagenarians from my running club who take part in long distance runs across hilly country, so maybe 68 is not unrealistic.
The partisans described in chapter 1 seem pretty different to the POUM volunteers described by George Orwell in Homage to Catalonia.
A 70-year-man completed the more than 2000-mile Apalachean trail. 68 might not be that old. Age is relative to health, not to statistics, regardless of the fact that statistics, properly used, have a lot to say.
I think I read or heard somewhere once that Alexander the Great had some veteran solders who up into their 50s would still march with him in full armor traversing long distances on foot.Quote:
Originally Posted by kev67
I once met a 70+ South African who was walking from Land's End to John O' Groats, which is from the southwest tip of England to the northeast tip of Scotland. That is only about 870 miles by the most direct route, but he was carrying a heavy backpack. I met him at Glencoe in the Scottish Highlands, and he must have been an early riser, because I saw him several miles down the road trudging to Fort William the next morning. Still, he said it had taken him six months and he was still over 150 miles away from the finish, which is taking your time if you ask me.Quote:
Originally Posted by cafolini
My copy of the book did not have a list of chapters at the front, but I see there are forty-two. That means I will have to read two a day to finish it this month :-/
I have only read two chapters, but it reminds me of those 60's and 70's WW2 stories like the Dirty Dozen or The Guns of Navarone in which a select group of specially talented fighters are sent on a suicide mission behind enemy lines. I will be interested to see if it turns out like that.
I thought the insertion of words like "unprintable" for the swear words uttered by Agustin in chapter 3 was rather pathetic. It would have been better to print the first letter and the correct number of asterisks, or to leave out the swearing altogether if it was not possible to write swear words at the time the book was published.
Though it can be a bit annoying, in a way I can see the use of the substituting swear words with "unprintable" as being a way of keeping the integrity of it intending to appear as if this work is being translated from Spanish. Though it can be awkward in reading, it is a way of suggesting that such words were omitted from the text.Quote:
Originally Posted by kev67
To leave the words out altogether would perhaps not do full justice to the characters or give a false impression as most likely realistically such individuals no doubt would have swore quite freely.
I see it as being almost a sort of protest or snub at the publishers, because he is not trying to hide the fact that he is using swear words but quite bluntly stating he was being censored from doing so.
How Hemingway portrays woman was brutal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobeornotobe
Might be a lot better. Brutal from Brutus. A lot better than Caesar.
I was a bit puzzled by Robert Jordan's physiological reaction when he had thoughts about young ladies. His throat swelled. I think this must be code for something else that was swelling.
This book is somehow not what I was expecting.
I wonder whether Hemmingway influenced a lot of later war films. In many of those classic 50s, 60s and 70s war films, the first half of the film would be scene setting, establishing the characters, resolving difficulties, outlining the mission and training. In the second half, the action would finally get under way. It's a bit like that in this book, except there is no training and the fighters are irregulars, not servicemen. I am hundred pages in and they are still all talking around the cave.
It reminds me of a book called Trapp's War by Brian Callison, which I read when I was a teenager, but I have not read many books of this type.
The wonderful thing about this novel (and Farewell To Arms in the same way - is that they are not war books. They are set during the war, explicitly on the frontlines - but it is about the people and the interactions. Hemingway was a medic in WWI and a reporter in the Spanish Civil War: this is what he is drawing on. For Whom The Bell Tolls is the story a group of people, not the struggle itself.
Very good estimate. True.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Darnay
Chapter 10 was a departure from what I was expecting. It now no longer reminds me The Guns of Naverone, and I have changed sides to the Fascists.
Maria starts to get really annoying around this point. Certainly not the most likeable female character created.
I have only read the first 3 chapters yet but wondering why Robert Jordan is continuously referred to with his full name while all the other with their first names.
Any thoughts?
It sounds cooler than just Robert?
I think it helps designate Robert Jordan as a higher class than the rebels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Darnay
I have to admit I actually like Maria. I guess in my own way I feel like I can understand her. I rather enjoy the scenes of her and Robert Jordan together.
I have to say I thought one of the most poignant moments in the book was when Anselmo reflects upon his regrets about having to kill and sees to try and find absolution. It is in Chapter 15 I think.
I thought it was quite a chilling sign of the times (and war time in general) when he makes the statement "All that I am sorry for is the killing. But surely there will be an opportunity to atone for that because for a sin of that sort that so many bear, certainly some just relief will be devised."
An act that is normally considered to be one of the most heinous things a person can do, is regulated to something so common place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Darnay
Yes I think this might be true, as the others also make jokes about him being Don Robeto.
Maybe he introduced himself as Robert Jordan and the Spaniards were unsure how to address him, he being foreign.
It is not only the other characters that refer him like that. The narrator always calls him "Robert Jordan" as well.
Chapter 10.
It's odd that Hemmingway censors swear words when the violence is so horrific. I doubt Quentin Tarrantino could film that.
The reference to the worthless drunks reminded me of a history book called The Pursuit of the Millenium by Norman Cohn. It was real Name of the Rose stuff about Medieval heresies. Sometimes a charismatic leader would start a new heretical sect with an emphasis on poverty and brotherhood. They would start rampaging through the countryside and attack rich people, especially the clergy. Resentful peasants and especially drunken layabouts would eagerly join in. Then the guards would catch up and that would be that.
It is more of a comment upon society that Hemingway. He was forced to censor the swear words because the publishers would not print such words. On the other hand apparently society had not qualms about violence. Not so different from today really. While swearing is not quite the taboo it used to be, people will make a big todoo about nudity and sex, and barely raise an eyebrow when it comes to showing graphic violence on TV.Quote:
Originally Posted by kev67
Yes, it is odd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
Are you sure you mean Maria? I thought Pilar was the pain in the neck. Maria is only annoying if you are a feminist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Darnay
I was amused by all the talk about the earth moving after Robert and Maria's hump in the heather. I wonder if this book is where the phrase comes from.
I love Pilar! No, my problem with Maria is how two dimensional she is, particularly when compared to other Hemingway women - such as Catherine and Brett.
Even though I like Maria I can understand that. It is true she is far less complex than many of Hemingway's other female characters. And I agree Pilar is great, and quite interesting. She is certainly an example of a very strong and independent woman.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Darnay
I have to say I was somewhat amused, and somewhat annoyed with Pilar's story about the Bullfighter, it seemed like something of an unnecessary diverge from the story and just kind of felt like Hemingway letting his own passion for bullfighting get in the way. He could not resist the urge to try and find somewhere in the book to mention bullfighting. So he creates this little side story that I did not really see as being relevant or bearing any great significance, but just this kind of rambling detour.
Maria is weak, but to be fair, she has not much alternative. She was rescued by the others, so she owes everyone her life. She is told what to do all the time, especially by Pilar. She has no skills except home-making ones such as cooking or cleaning. Her only trump cards are her youth and beauty, and naturally enough she is drawn to the young, blond foreigner with the bomb making skills.
Yes, that was a good chapter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse