East of Eden by John Steinbeck idioms and stuff that doesnt make sense

I have never posted on a forum in my life but here i go. So on page 36 of John Steinbeck's novel East of Eden, Adam has a letter of Charles rambling and there are some things in that ramble that I dont get.

"I guess I should wait for a new penpoint and not write with a pencil. Only I was sitting here in the kitchen with the lamp on and I guess I got to thinking and it come on late-after twelve, I guess, but I never looked. Old Black Joe started crowing out in the henhouse. Then Mother's rocking chair cricked for all the world like she was sitting in it. You know I dont take truck with that but it set me minding backwards, you know how you do sometimes"

ok i'll stop there. i started to get lost at the second sentence. what came on late? who and what is Black Joe. What does take truck mean? set me minding backwards?

" it came on late - after twelve" - it was getting late: past midnight

Old Black Joe is a rooster

to take truck - basically it means to have a problem with.... "You know I don't [have a problem] with that but.....

"set me minding backwards" = remembering

"There was a time when people kept their fly buttons fastened. And man's freedom was boiling off. And even childhood was no good anymore-not the way it was. No worry then but how to find a good stone, not round exactly but flattened and water shaped, to use in a sling pouch cut from a discarded shoe. Where did all the good stones go, and all simplicity?"

not really sure what this meant. people kept their fly buttons fastened and men had little freedom? childhood was not the way it was because the only worry was to find a stone to use in a sling pouch in a shoe? then he asks "Where did all the good stones go, and all simplicity?" as if looking for stones was not simple enough.???

"An elder man might truly recall through water the delicate doctor-testing of little girls, but such a man forgets, and wants to, the acid emotion eating at the spleen so that a boy had to put his face flat down in the young wild oats and drum his fists against the ground and sob "christ! christ!". Such a man might say, and did, "what's that damned kid lying out there in the grass for? He'll catch a cold."
what is he talking about here? he lost me at "recall through water the delicate doctor-testing of little girls"

Is English a second or third language for you? Don't worry too much about "getting it all". Once you get into the text the language will start to fill you up and meaning will slip into place after it.

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Originally Posted by ennison

Is English a second or third language for you? Don't worry too much about "getting it all". Once you get into the text the language will start to fill you up and meaning will slip into place after it.

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english is my first language. anyway i have more quotes i dont understand. here they are...

"pay has been more than I’ve merited by the nature of it."
"A man, his whole life, matches himself against pay. And how, if it’s my whole life’s work to find my worth, can you, sad man, write me down instant in a ledger?”"
"with sweet paternity for a fertilized egg"
"You bought your uprightness. You bought your thumb on sideways."
"The stone orchard celebrates too little, not too much"

now here's a conversation i just dont get;
adam says “I’ll pay. I tell you I’ll pay. How much? I’ll pay.”
samual says “You have, but not to me.” which in other words means "you still haven't paid me"
then adam says “Why did you come then? Go away!”. Why would adam say that when samual just told him that he is there because adam needs to pay him?

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Originally Posted by ennison

Is English a second or third language for you? Don't worry too much about "getting it all". Once you get into the text the language will start to fill you up and meaning will slip into place after it.

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what makes you think that just because English is not the first language that someone won't understand? just curious?

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Originally Posted by fatman

I have never posted on a forum in my life but here i go. So on page 36 of John Steinbeck's novel East of Eden, Adam has a letter of Charles rambling and there are some things in that ramble that I dont get.

"I guess I should wait for a new penpoint and not write with a pencil. Only I was sitting here in the kitchen with the lamp on and I guess I got to thinking and it come on late-after twelve, I guess, but I never looked. Old Black Joe started crowing out in the henhouse. Then Mother's rocking chair cricked for all the world like she was sitting in it. You know I dont take truck with that but it set me minding backwards, you know how you do sometimes"

ok i'll stop there. i started to get lost at the second sentence. what came on late? who and what is Black Joe. What does take truck mean? set me minding backwards?

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Black Joe rememeber Joe Black the character the Devils' Advocate?
Why does Steinbeck Name always reminds of the expression Stand Back. I have a copy of ''Mice and Men'' sitting on my decks and everytime i see it the name jumps out saying stand back!!! go figure.
With East of Eden I have always wondered why Eden of all places and why East?
Maybe someone can shed some light.

'And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; and the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.' Genesis 2, vv 8-9 (AV)

It's a reference to the Garden of Eden and by extension a suggestion of Paradise Lost or the loss of innocence which gives you a hint of what the book might be about.

Idiomatic or dialect language might not be so readily understood by someone using English as his/her first language. It takes a little while for the inner ear to tune into some dialects.

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Originally Posted by fatman

english is my first language. anyway i have more quotes i dont understand. here they are...

"pay has been more than I’ve merited by the nature of it."
"A man, his whole life, matches himself against pay. And how, if it’s my whole life’s work to find my worth, can you, sad man, write me down instant in a ledger?”"
"with sweet paternity for a fertilized egg"
"You bought your uprightness. You bought your thumb on sideways."
"The stone orchard celebrates too little, not too much"

now here's a conversation i just dont get;
adam says “I’ll pay. I tell you I’ll pay. How much? I’ll pay.”
samual says “You have, but not to me.” which in other words means "you still haven't paid me"
then adam says “Why did you come then? Go away!”. Why would adam say that when samual just told him that he is there because adam needs to pay him?

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there is too much here to sift through right now. What I would recommend is you develop strategies to deal with any such passages that use now antiquated expressions and words you might not understand. Context clues are a big one - but sometimes only get you so far. Breaking the sentence into smaller chunks is also a good way to go about puzzling it out. Or, simply think it over for a while - don't worry about finding the "one" answer to the expression, but what you make of it.

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Originally Posted by kasie

'And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; and the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.' Genesis 2, vv 8-9 (AV)

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how does one plant a garden? I thought one planted plants trees.
Hi kasie Eden is called the land of Nod which comes from the word NORTH . why is it suddenly in the east?
The other thing is that I wondered what about the west of Eden since one is being pedantic about Eden being in the east.
The sun normally shour rise in the north/West which the highest point in atmospherique terms and sets in the east the lowest point logically.
How is a garden to grow not facing the sun?

The Sun rises fromt he highest point in the sphere. East is not right. and so where is the garden going to gestate?

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It's a reference to the Garden of Eden and by extension a suggestion of Paradise Lost or the loss of innocence which gives you a hint of what the book might be about.

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I guess that would makes sense if there was a tree for for both good and evil. The do say one rotten tomatoe spoils the whole bowl.

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Idiomatic or dialect language might not be so readily understood by someone using English as his/her first language. It takes a little while for the inner ear to tune into some dialects.

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I do not consider the bible to be anything by simplistic. It is not rocket science. It is grim evil good and bad.

The Land of Nod is not Eden, it is the region east of Eden - you know....like how Germany of east of France, so is Nod east of Eden? And Nod does not come from north - stop making this **** up! Please!

"Nod" (נוד) is the Hebrew root of the verb "to wander" (לנדוד).

Learn some Hebrew if you want to talk about Biblical etymology.

(I recognize the futility of facts, I just......)

[QUOTE=cacian;1208648]

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The sun normally rise in the West which the highest point in atmospherique terms and sets in the east the lowest point logically.

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Scientific proof that Cacian is not from earth, and aliens have found the Internet!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Charles Darnay

The Land of Nod is not Eden, it is the region east of Eden - you know....like how Germany of east of France, so is Nod east of Eden? And Nod does not come from north - stop making this **** up! Please!

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Ok sure that was a slip of the tongue let's call it freudian. You do know it.
East of Eden and the land of Nod. Apparently from the east. is nod. what a lot of hooha.
But you must not compare Germany and France to East of Eden and the land of Nod. Two very different concept.
Eden from the garden of Eden. Eden meaning god That is hardly france or germay.

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"Nod" (נוד) is the Hebrew root of the verb "to wander" (לנדוד).

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Whaever hebrew I do not speak it. Nod comes from the word NORTH. D here replaces TH. It also means to nod in english as in to approve by moving head in which ever direction you may wish it to.

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Learn some Hebrew if you want to talk about Biblical etymology.

(I recognize the futility of facts, I just......)

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I don't care for Hebrew but I do have time for a bible that is written in English.

[QUOTE=Charles Darnay;1208656]

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Originally Posted by cacian

Scientific proof that Cacian is not from earth, and aliens have found the Internet!!!!!

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no need for science to prove anything. There is a dictionary for that or just pure analysis.
The sun rises in the west. You do not have to believe it but that is what i believe. A sun needs a highest point to rise.
I could not rise from the bottom it is too low. It needs a height in order to rise.
It is the sun it rotates from point to the next respectively therefore it does not down to up to rise. it rotates from the highest to the lowest and then up again. suspension from the heights gives it power to up again.

It took far longer than it should have, but you finally convinced me - without a doubt - that you are a troll. I have no time or patience for trolls, so I will just ignore you and deal with the fact that approx. 80% of this forum is now closed to me. Farwell.

Oh well read the OP title.

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Originally Posted by Charles Darnay

It took far longer than it should have, but you finally convinced me - without a doubt - that you are a troll. I have no time or patience for trolls, so I will just ignore you and deal with the fact that approx. 80% of this forum is now closed to me. Farwell.

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Don't beat yourself up over how long it took—it is hard to see anything through the cloud of incoherence.

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Originally Posted by WyattGwyon

Don't beat yourself up over how long it took—it is hard to see anything through the cloud of incoherence.

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what about me? i think i ask intelligent questions. im mostly asking about interpretations. if the interpretations seem a bit obvious i know it can look stupid but i still have some uncertainty. i just want a concensus on the actual meaning. it bothers me if i interpret the text the wrong way. plus there might be a moral to the story that i can miss if i skip it.

and here are the quotes i didnt understand again. they are from chapter 22 pages 255-257 in the centennial edition when samual is scolding adam;
"pay has been more than I’ve merited by the nature of it." (i think he meant you've paid me more than enough but im just making sure)
"A man, his whole life, matches himself against pay. And how, if it’s my whole life’s work to find my worth, can you, sad man, write me down instant in a ledger?”"(honestly i have no idea what he meant)
"with sweet paternity for a fertilized egg" (is samual saying that adam just wanted some pussy?)
"You bought your uprightness. You bought your thumb on sideways." (i think he is saying that adam is a goody two shoes but im not sure.)
"The stone orchard celebrates too little, not too much" (no idea what this means)

Eden is about lost innocents and East of Eden is too. And the repetitive long E sound in East of Eden sounds better than West of Eden, you have to admit.

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Originally Posted by Steven Hunley

Eden is about lost innocents and East of Eden is too. And the repetitive long E sound in East of Eden sounds better than West of Eden, you have to admit.

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Of course there is nothing more riveting then two Es following each other. ;)

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Originally Posted by Charles Darnay

It took far longer than it should have, but you finally convinced me - without a doubt - that you are a troll.

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Oh dear, and there was I thinking that Cacian was the natural successor to James Joyce. The scales have fallen from my eyes and I see that all that Joycean verse was nothing but the creation of a prankster seeking to usurp the intellectual content of the LitNet.

Percentagewise, mentally ill people are very few. But they surely can make the most noise.

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Originally Posted by cafolini

Percentagewise, mentally ill people are very few. But they surely can make the most noise.

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ah screw it. i'll just skip it.

No don't skip it. Your questions are about genuinely difficult idioms and dialectical usage. But what I was trying clumsily to say to you is that separating these bits from the whole is not always the best way to come to grips with a novel as densely idiomatic as that one. However one of the bits that you quote above seems relatively easy to me "a man ... a ledger" Many people judge their own and others value as a human being by the size of their wallet but that is a very limited way to measure the worth of a human being. The other bits seem to me to require more context.

Troll? Reminds me of a wee rabht. Goes like so. How happy is the troll! He does not give a damn. I wish I were a troll. My Gosh I think I am!

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Originally Posted by ennison

Troll? Reminds me of a wee rabht. Goes like so. How happy is the troll! He does not give a damn. I wish I were a troll. My Gosh I think I am!

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at the end of chapter 26 is lee calling samual his father? and was there a reason why adam left so hastily??

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Originally Posted by Charles Darnay

It took far longer than it should have, but you finally convinced me - without a doubt - that you are a troll. I have no time or patience for trolls, so I will just ignore you and deal with the fact that approx. 80% of this forum is now closed to me. Farwell.

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I'm just impressed that you were still reading her posts all the way into March.

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Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf

I'm just impressed that you were still reading her posts all the way into March.

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"Hick came in from King City. Just sold his crop. Bought out the house. Dropped seven hundred not counting what he give the girls."

what does bought out the house mean?
is he saying a hick also gave away seven hundred bucks not counting some given to the girls?

"bought out the house" -- the house is the establishment --here it sounds like a saloon, or perhaps a store. "to buy out" means to buy everything so there is nothing left for anyone else to buy.

So some country fellow came in from King City and sold his harvest for a big stack of cash which he then spent on a binge. He bought everything in sight. He must have spent $700 and that doesn't include "what he gave the girls" --I figure that would be tips or gifts to saloon gals, but the context should tell you better.