""Damini"" the brave girl have finally past away. The tragic victim of the rape, "damini" passed away in Singapore. Let's pray for her peace
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""Damini"" the brave girl have finally past away. The tragic victim of the rape, "damini" passed away in Singapore. Let's pray for her peace
It's a horrible story Udanchondi. The only good thing to come out of it is a questioning of attitudes to women in India. It's one of the things that is surprising about India. Condemning half the population to inferior rights can't be good.
Daily or hourly rape of women in India is the effect of decades of female infanticide, foeticide, suicide, and honor-related murder. As the girls and women organize and become more vigilant and their numbers continue to dwindle because of more female infanticide, foeticide, suicide, and honor-related murder, Indian men will be raping Indian boys and other men.
I was reading that men do not women using mobile phones as it is seen as improper and even precocious behaviour. Is that true?
I don't for a moment think that the majoity of men think like this. Most men with wives and daughters won't have this extreme attitude, and there are lots of decent people everywhere. There were just as many men in the protests as women in Dehli.Quote:
Originally Posted by miyako73
The reality in India is that the good, comfortable men (women included in that one) do nothing. Before the rape and murder of Amanat, hundreds of dalit, tribal, and low-caste girls and women had been raped but nobody had protested. I suspect because Amanat came from a different caste and well-to-do family and was a "medical" student, her case has stirred the entire nation--particularly the educated middle class. Kids are being raped in India on a daily basis. I have been an Indophile for quite some time now. Reading an Indian Online newspaper is like immersing myself in a nightmare.
This is a more measured response. The inequalities of the caste system clearly provide opportunities for criminal acts, and I think you're probably right about her being a middle class medical student, and the effect that has. It will require a big change in attitudes which people at the top and middle will probably resist, as they will lose advantages - not just criminal ones. The religious sphere - whilst not sanctioning crimes like rape - promote this inequality. It's going to be difficult for them to change as they need to.Quote:
Originally Posted by miyako73
Perhaps worse - or as bad, is the "solution" of forcing the girl to marry her rapist. So impossible is the stigma of rape for the woman's family, that they often force her to do this, and all charges are dropped.
Rather than locking up your daughters, teach your sons to behave.
Yes - it's taken a long time for women here to be able to complain/ prosecute/ support and explain to the public what happens. The stgma thing is going to be a massive change in attitudes. All that does is protect the criminals.Quote:
Originally Posted by prendrelemick
Another reason this case stands out is because of the brutal torture. Reading between the lines of the medical report, it sounds like a metal rod inserted through her anus and perforating the intestines was responsible for infections in her lungs and other organs. You figure it out—if you have the stomach for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by miyako73
If most of the women raped in India are from lower castes, which castes generate most of the rapists, and why?Quote:
Originally Posted by miyako73
It's hard to ascertain. Indian women have castes, but it seems their vaginas don't have.
I think the danger with this story is that it is being turned into a racist assault on India and Indian culture, as though rape is not a problem elsewhere. Things are just as bad, and just as under-reported in the western world. Women's rights are tenuous the world over. A timely report here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ini?intcmp=239
and here: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...e-8433445.html
Haven't heard anything of the kind. Who is doing this?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFifthElement
Things are "bad" and "under-reported" in the west, "but just as bad?" Seriously?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFifthElement
The world has to be racist against India, if it is the only thing that will change its culture of misogyny, if it's the only force of shame that will make its leaders act, and if it's the only way to make its people see the dirt and disease of their unjust, violent minds.
If you'd said things like international protests and vigils, then that would have been reasonable. What you do suggest is ridiculous on many levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by miyako73
I think it would be a mistake to compare reported rape cases in the UK and India. There is under reporting in the UK which is at least trying to improve the police procedures. Those adverts on TV about the no means no issue shows where we want to be at least. The social pressures in India are very different to here. The inequality is much greater.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFifthElement
This case has got into limelight because of the way the assault happened on the girl, which was much more than sexual assault. And that has got nothing to do with the caste she belonged to. Before the assault, she was not asked for permission to assault based on her caste. It was an act of sick minds. When a girl walks the streets, it's not written on her face that she belongs to a certain caste and so she should or should not be raped. Her being a medical student is just a related fact and that also does not make her by default a lower or upper caste (ever heard of reservation?). Relating this case with the caste is generalizing it a bit too much. And if you are not aware, the caste system is not just amongst Hindus, it's in other religions too.
Rape happens everywhere and some cases are never reported, which is not unique to India. However, good things are happening as a result of this case, the laws will become even more strict and perhaps the police and support agencies will become more approachable and sensitive towards such victims. This will definitely help in more cases being reported. This case has also raised concerns on the attitude of the society on the upbringing of children and the gender inequality. I think a stricter law and it's efficient implementation will make the society behave to some extent. We have to wait and watch how the change takes place.
If you're from India and trying to present the phenomenon of rape in India as normal like in other countries, you're not helping your country. Babies and grannies are victims of rape in India. China is as big as your country, but I don't see/hear Chinese news detailing ordeals of raped kids in a daily basis. Throw away your pride and feel the shame. Only collective shame will make your countrymen change their culturally-accepted misogynistic attitude towards women.
This case is horrible for the girl and her family. Nothing takes away from that fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Madhuri
The wider questions raised also come because of the attack, and the problem is the inequalities which exist in India - particularly for women. I don't think you can get away from inequality to women/ attitudes to women/ caste because the caste situation creates and sustains inequality. This is particularly difficult for women who are vulnerable to negative influences and attitudes. Clearly anyone can have something unfortunate happen to them, but would it receive as much attention as it has done if the girl had been an untouchable?
Rape happens everywhere and some cases are never reported, which is not unique to India.
It is thus difficult to come up with figures, but we have agencies in the UK which deal with victims beyond the criminal justice system. They regularly make statements and try to positively affect policy. It's not perfect, but what is? It can only improve. The work done has removed the stigma of rape for women to a greater extent than in the past, and attitudes are healthier than they were. Can you say that attitudes in India to a raped girl are healthy and that the stigma has been removed? It requires a very large cultural shift which will not happen overnight.
By the way, I don't know where Miyako is from or why they are so negative about India, or why China - that bastion of human rights - is held up as a good example in comparison.
Why might Indian police be less than approachable or sensitive to victims of rape, especially rape by strangers and, more especially, rape with assault? Are there cultural or historical factors that makes India different? Is community tolerance for honour killings somehow related?Quote:
Originally Posted by Madhuri
Romanticizing India is not the solution. Even Indian leaders educated in the west have resorted to "collective shaming." The enlightened Whites used the same thing when they supported Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela. India needs an enlightened class that will be so ashamed of being part of the problem because of its silence. Because of that shame, that enlightened class will speak up.
A good Australian article: http://mangaloretoday.com/mt/index.p...type=109&cat=2
Indian politicians have been saying the gang-rape of Amanat is a national shame. If it is that shameful, they should do something. Damn parrots!
That is a very good point the whole world needs an enlightened class. I don't know anything about this particular situation but India certainly has bigger problems. The gap between wealthy and poor is growing across the world. The world is under the control of corporations and anyone that doesn't have money can suck it, that includes all the wildlife on the planet and the planet itself. It is our fault, it is because of our indifference. The damn petite bourgeois care for nothing but there own survival. It is because of our love of progress for progresses sake, because what would the world be without central air!? Oh the humanity! Meanwhile we are losing our humanity. More and more I see people with their faces glued to their damned IPhones only concerned with not standing out, only concerned with what everyone else is concerned with. The individual is dead. Go anywhere around the world and witness the lose of culture at different stages for progress. Witness the lifeless state of earth at different stages. I live in New York, it is winter all the time here. Dead, nothing lives, cept the rats.Quote:
Originally Posted by miyako73
don't suggest that the poor care more than their own survival Rumfield. Don't give the poor credit just because they're poor.
No but the poor know what it is like to go hungry, the poor know what it is like to work a bull**** job, the poor know things are ****ed just as well as the rich now they are ****ing things. The middle class cares only about comfort. Only about leasing a new Accord and getting the new IPhone or IPad. The middle class only care about comparing their suffering with their friends and neighbors. The middle class only cares about television shows and hiding their scars. The middle class step on the poor and slave for the rich all for some trivialities. The middle class consume the bull**** the rich sell made with the blood and sweat of the poor. The middle class breaks the backs of the poor and fills the pockets of the rich. Their are more poor than middle class and more middle class than rich. The poor are the base of our pyramid and necessary to maintain the lifestyle of the greedy stupid masses. The middle class are the puppets you see everyday preaching the decaying gospel of our social political and economic system. They are the cops who don't care about protecting the citizens only about making their arrest quota. The middle class are the teachers that don't care whether or not their children learn anything as long as they have a good graduation rate. The middle class trick stupid people into buying mortgages they can't afford. They don't want anything to change because they are middle class and their parents and so on and so forth. They refuse to risk anything to gain something more because they are so afraid of being poor. They spend all their time gossiping and trying to destroy each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta40
So what you're saying is peoples are peoples. Sounds human to me.
Well, well I think I agree with most of that. However the middle class are necessary to society, they are like a lump of ballast on a ship. As long as they are there in sufficient numbers they keep things stable.Quote:
Originally Posted by E.A Rumfield
Quote:
Originally Posted by E.A Rumfield
Speaking as a member of the middle-class, I'd just like to say that all this is absolutely true about the middle-class. From my years of being poor, I can also say it's absolutely true about the poor. I'm working on becoming rich (mainly by having my iPhone glued to my face) and when I get there, I'll let you know how true or otherwise the above is about the rich.
Top Stories in India today. Find me a set of top stories like this in any country.
Akbaruddin Owaisi, alleged hate-speech giver, won't appear before police today
Fog hits flights, trains in Delhi | This Haryana town records -3° | Share pics | Donate a blanket
Teacher arrested for raping 4 minor students
15-yr-old raped by two, including a minor
2G auction to begin on March 11, says panel
4 minors allegedly raped by 40-yr-old man
Mumbai: Cops stumble upon baby-selling racket
Chuck Hagel set to be next US Defence Secretary
Cops hunt for man who set girlfriend on fire
Pilot lands safely despite losing wheel mid air
90-yr-old Saudi marries 15-yr-old girl, sparks condemnation
Sehwag not part of 2015 World Cup plans: Report | Gavaskar on Sehwag being axed
India vs Pakistan: 'Cold made the chase tough'
Google continues 'war' on Microsoft users
Salman isn't God, says Bigg Boss contestant
What are you a starving Indian child? How on earth could you think that a cop or a teacher is middle-class with the salaries they make. Lets face it, cops and teachers are paid working-class salaries.Quote:
Originally Posted by E.A Rumfield
Madhuri was not trying to romanticise. She was trying to present a more balanced view of what happened, since a few people (including you) have automatically linked this rape to the condition of women in India, female feoticide, etc, etc. This particular assault, where a helpless couple fell into the the hands of violent criminally minded men late in the night, could have happened in any country.Quote:
Originally Posted by miyako73
And China, really? A country which has an even more skewed sex-ratio than India? And whatever horrible things may happen in India, at least it's all out there in the newspapers and TV for all to see.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to sweep my country's womens' problems under the carpet. But when I see a post like this -
it strikes me as reductive, half-baked, partial knowledge and simplistic conclusions. At the root of most of India's problems are the extreme poverty of most of the people, the huge differences in power/wealth, and of course corruption. You've got to understand that, before suggesting simplistic solutions.Quote:
Originally Posted by miyako73
Sorry Mona. I've been reading NDTV, CNN-IBN, Rediff, The Hindu, India Express, The Times of India, The Telegraph, etc. since ten years ago. I read rape stories on a daily basis. Besides Lalu's antics and Mamata's tantrums, Indian rape stories have bored me to death already.
Miyako, I rest my case. You can only get a partial picture of any country by reading the papers, which obviously publish mostly sensational or newsworthy stories, and rape is very newsworthy. Anyway, in which Utopia is there no rape or child abuse? I would like to emmigrate there.
Please don't think I'm saying that what you read is not true. It's just not the whole picture by any means. Reality is more complicated than the comments you've been making or the headlines you've been quoting. I'm not even saying that I have any true picture - India is too big and too diverse to be comprehended even by its own nationals. Perhaps this is true of all countries. I don't know - I've only ever lived in this one.
I have made it a practice, when people start acting like lemmings, to ask myself why. And invariably your 'control by corporations' supplies the answer. The pointless use of IPhones here in the UK has reached proportions of idiocy that has probably never been equalled in all of its history. In such a scenario, the disincentive to have an IPhone is obvious and I shall continue to do without one.Quote:
Originally Posted by E.A Rumfield
[/QUOTE] I live in New York, it is winter all the time here. Dead, nothing lives, cept the rats.[/QUOTE]
If you think New York is bad avoid London at all costs.
mona amon: Although rape and sex abuse happens all over the world, it is undeniable that it happens more frequently in India, and this is (almost definitely) due to the attitude towards women there.
You should be yelling in the street: "YES RAPE IN INDIA HAPPENS EVERY MINUTE. WE WANT THE THREE BRANCHES OF THE GOVERNMENT TO PROTECT GIRLS AND WOMEN."Quote:
Originally Posted by mona amon
Maybe through your collective voice, Women's Bill will be passed, Indian politicians who commit crimes against women will be jailed, local women leaders will run panchayats, Indian rapists will be physically castrated a la hijra style if death penalty is too harsh, cops will be trained how to handle women's issues, boys and girls will be educated early about justice and equality, crimes against women will become heinous crimes, judicial proceeding against rapists and criminals who violate women will be swift, religious institutions will be charged if they promote misogyny and crimes against women
You have a long way to go. If RSS and other ultra-conservative organizations and Hindu bapus and gurus blame women who are victims of rape, you really have a long way to go.
Yell at the top of your lungs: "YES RAPE IN INDIA HAPPENS EVERY MINUTE OR EVEN EVERY SECOND. WE WANT THE THREE BRANCHES OF THE GOVERNMENT TO PROTECT GIRLS AND WOMEN. WE WANT OUR LEADERS TO BE PRO-WOMEN."
Swallow your pride for this one. Accept the shame for the sake of change. If that change happens, maybe India will, indeed, become a superpower-what you all want to happen. But first stop hiding the dirt under your eyelids and the piss smell in your nostrils.
In all fairness the sex-ratio amongst men and women among the upper and middle classes of Chinese society is more balanced, and the government strictly condemns actions toward female infanticide. As for women's rights, there is progress, and I would say the 1970s Chinese woman was more "liberated" than her Western counterpart - where things have gone in the past 30 years is another issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by mona amon
That aside, China, in terms of Asian cultures, is far more advanced on issues of Women's liberation. Indian female infanticide amongst the upper and middle classes is still a major problem, especially since it is still legal, and very easily performed (go, do an ultrasound, see the wrong fetus, shoot a needle, done). In China this is absolutely illegal, and the doctor will probably lie to you and tell you you are expecting a boy anyway, if he has the nerve to go against the law and tell you.
That aside, in terms of violence against women, Pakistan and India, especially amongst the poorer castes, are far behind in terms of support, and victim's rights, and prosecution. The case is big, arguably, because it was a well-to-do woman. A poor untouchable would not have warranted protests - merely the shunning of the victim's family.
As for those who argue that this is a world issue, that is one aspect, and it is true. However, that does not reject the issues - simply put, women's liberation in much of the Western world is far more advanced than in other places. IF we say violence against women is a problem everywhere, we must also realize that it is a bigger problem in some places than others.
Completley agree. Because this is the only way to force them to do sth. When the " Others" call them racist and all bad things.Quote:
Originally Posted by miyako73
What they really care about is not human rights but " their image " in the world.
India needs more writers like this one:
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/...ame-to-canada/
Do women call this out before or after they circumsize their daughters?Quote:
Originally Posted by miyako73
succinct! hehehehe They don't have female circumcision in India though. They have mothers (and fathers) burning their daughters, throwing acid at their faces, poisoning them, hacking them into halves if their mothers' (and fathers') whims regarding marriage and honor are not met.