and is there a seventh heaven?
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and is there a seventh heaven?
Based on near-death and shared-death experiences, I think there is evidence that we continue in some way after our deaths. Some people have reported heavenly experiences and some hellish. The descriptions of heaven and hell in any particular religion could be tested by these experiences.
Hi YesNo thank you for posting.Quote:
Originally Posted by YesNo
What is a share-death experience?
No I don't. I'd like to hear more from YesNo regarding his experiences.
But what reasons are there to believe (as in indubitable self-KNOWLEDGE) in an afterlife?
No and no.
Haha not so quick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Varenne Rodin
Why must you insist it is a no Varenne?
Just curious to know if you do not mind me asking.
There just isn't enough space to accommodate everyone: therefore, no.
Good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Darnay
That is an intriguing idea one I have not thought about.
Oh well maybe not everyone makes it to heaven how else would you explain it to those who believe in it.
As to hell I am not sure I count that as true.
No point in a heaven if hell exists. That would be be call segregation and god would have a hefty task on his hand to sift through the good and the bad.
I guess it is one or the other for peace of mind.
I do not believe in the Biblical version of Heaven and Hell, however I am a firm believer of life after death through reincarnation.
No, I am the collection of neurons - biological cells. Once they no longer function, I will not be able to experience anything. Without a functioning nervous system we cannot feel or sense anything. To believe otherwise would be a denial of basic high school level biology.
Or a belief in something outside the realm of science.Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainHatteras
Which would be denial of basic science. You don't need to be a scientist to know that once one is brain dead, there cannot be any continuing thought processes, because thoughts are electrochemical charges transmitted over synapses by neurons. Once this is no longer happening, the person is no more.
This cannot be proven though. If there were a life after death, it would be impossible to detect it through scientific means of investigation. Nothing can be known of what happens after death.Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainHatteras
As far as neuroscience has come since Descartes - and it has come a long way - it has not completely explained the mind/body relationship. There is still room within the realm of human mystery for the idea of thoughts to exist outside of the electric make-up of the brain.
Ditto.Quote:
Originally Posted by Varenne Rodin
You asking for elaboration is the height of irony.Quote:
Originally Posted by cacian
Not a 7th...just a 3rd heaven.
Hell...yes, indeed...
A shared-death experience is the name Raymond Moody gave to the experiences some people have when other people close to them die. Sometimes they see or talk to the person who died.Quote:
Originally Posted by cacian
Moody also created the term "near-death" experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volya
Volya,
I'd like to learn more about this. Why is it, if you're comfortable discussing, that you believe in the notion of reincarnation? Care to describe this belief?
Thanks
You making an issue out of it is the irony itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandis
Well my first instinct is that yes, there is an afterlife. But I find the notion of heaven/hell implausible as there is no omniscient god who can decide whether we are good or bad. So it seems to me that the most likely theory is that our souls go somewhere else (though not necessarily on our world).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Nevarc
How so?Quote:
Originally Posted by cacian
How do you mean?Quote:
Originally Posted by Volya
Are you suggesting that one does not know the difference between the two?
This is why I like the traditional Jewish laissez-faire attitude towards the afterlife. "No our souls don't die after death? Where do they go? How should I know I haven't gotten there yet, now stop worrying about it."Quote:
Originally Posted by Volya
Yes. I believe in a heaven. (Btw, the "3rd heaven" thing is because in both Hebrew and Greek the word "heaven" has much of the same flexibility that it does in English. The first heaven is the sky in which the birds and such fly, the second is what we'd call the atmosphere and the third is the abode of the Lord.)
And just in case you weren't ready to laugh at me, I believe in a heaven where not only the soul will dwell, but both my body (raised from the dead and made imperishable) and my soul will be united as I dwell there.
Even for those who are not Christians I find it shocking and not a little sad (in the heart-wrenching, not pathetic sense) that some assume they are merely a collection of cells. What happened to the philosopher and the "I am more than the sum of my parts?" <sigh>
I suspected you didn't know what "irony" meant.
I am neutral on religon, but I always that it interesting that Judaism places relatively low interest or emphasis on the afterlife, whereas that is the whole point with most major religons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Darnay
It would seem to me that religon was spawned for a number of reasons- the answer to the afterlife question being one of the big reasons.
Excellent...someone else actually knows this too.Quote:
Originally Posted by togre
There are hellish and heavenly conditions here on earth. A few people live very luxurious and pampered lives, and unfortunately more people live in hellish conditions. If you believe in an afterlife, then the fact that these conditions exist on earth already - even if they are temporary - means that they could exist in the hereafter too. Scary.
The idea of eternal heaven and eternal damnation in the Christian tradition makes no sense on a purely logical level. What crime could possibly justify eternal damnation? Then again, the ideas we have about what heaven and hell are like are not borne out in the bible either. There is no description in the bible of our modern conceptions of heaven and hell. If I am wrong I'll stand corrected.
It dos beg the question about where such ideas came from.
I personally don't believe in an afterlife, simply because there is no evidence for it.
But in most afterlife-based hypotheses it's not the brain that ascends to heaven but rather the soul, and you can't disprove a soul. The concept of "soul" is inherently unrational, it is beyond the realm of the rational.Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainHatteras
I don't think this is so. Christianity and Islam tend to place more emphasis than most religions. In most ancient religions (Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Norse, Celtic) the afterlife is very unified - basically everyone goes there. Greece introduced the idea of Hell (Tartarus) and Romans added heaven (Elysium) - but these were reserved for only a few - the vast majority just went to the underworld. Judaism is basically the same, they just never gave a strict vision of their underworld.Quote:
Originally Posted by tonywalt
I think in Revelations it says that God will separate the bad from good, and the good will go to Jerusalem or something along those lines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
What you say is not wrong but...Quote:
Originally Posted by Volya
1) While there are places where the Bible that describes the divide as between the "good" and the "bad," the wider context of the Bible makes clear that both good and bad are equally sinful but because they trust Jesus the "good" have been forgiven.
2) The reference to Jerusalem is symbolic, not geographic. Jerusalem was the capital of Israel (and the home of God's Temple), and Israel was the chosen people loved by God. As such Jerusalem becomes shorthand for all those saved through trust in God and/or the eternal home of these people. So, fancy picture for heaven. :)
Hi togre really nice to see you back. I hope you do not mind me answering this.Quote:
Originally Posted by togre
What do you mean by good and bad are equally sinful?
somehow find it difficult to believe God would chose one over another.Quote:
2) The reference to Jerusalem is symbolic, not geographic. Jerusalem was the capital of Israel (and the home of God's Temple), and Israel was the chosen people loved by God. As such Jerusalem becomes shorthand for all those saved through trust in God and/or the eternal home of these people. So, fancy picture for heaven. :)
Surely in anybody's mind that is not right and a god that is not fair is not a god.
I am not sure I believe this Jerusalem bit because in reality if you look at what Jerusalem has created is bloodshed and war.
God would not have a favourite one or a beloved one simply because it would create tension and war.
There is no such a thing as the chosen one by a god that creates everyone regardless of race.
I see how what I said can be unclear. Sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by cacian
Volya mentioned the good [people] being separated from the bad [people]. My point was that the difference between "good" people who go to heaven and "bad" people who go to hell, is NOT that the "good" people are nicer, better, have kept God's laws perfectly, or deserve a better fate based on their behavior.
The Bible says "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Everyone deserves to go to hell, because of sin and rebellion against God. That is, if you judge based on what a person does and thinks. But Jesus became a substitute--He lived a sin-free life. He suffered the pangs of hell on the cross. He earned forgiveness for the world.
The difference between the "good" (people going to heaven) and the "bad" (people going to hell) is the good benefit from what Jesus did by trusting in him (faith) and the bad do not benefit from what Jesus did by rejecting it/him (unbelief).
This ties in to my second point/your second question: Since no one deserves God's love (no one is lovable in any sense to God) any one who is loved is loved not because of something in them, but because of something in God. God loves the unlovable. He chooses to give his love to those who do not deserve. (and in giving his love, he forgives, washes away sin, makes them into something good and pleasing in his eyes.)
Reading some of Mary Boyce's studies of Zoroastrianism I was under the impression that the Christian heaven and hell idea originally came from Zarathustra, however, looking at the Wikipedia article on Hell, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell), it seems there are many different origins for the ideas of what happens after death.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
Regardless of the history, togre's point that much of any of these religious traditions is "symbolic" is important. A rejection of any religious tradition based on a search for literal contradictions in that tradition doesn't amount to much. Also, being "symbolic" doesn't mean there is no truth behind the religious tradition. Although some claim there is no evidence for an afterlife, near-death experiences do offer evidence. Nor are near-death experiences something people have only recently found out about. Plato used a near-death experience in the last book of the Republic to justify his theory of reincarnation.
I think we might agree on much this, Paulclem, I am just using your comment to expand on the history of the ideas. I also want to make clear that linking Christianity with Zoroastrian beliefs does not imply negativity on my part toward either of those religions.
I see what you are saying and agree with most of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by togre
The only issue I have with this is this ambivalence idea of good or bad.
It comes across as simplistic when there is more to it.
Humans are complex and go beyond this ambivalence.
For the bible to think god and good goes hand in hand is misleading.
Therefore the concept of heaven and hell is misleading too.
I'm sure it does, but the modern conception of heaven is not described as such in the bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Volya
Exactly right: those who get into heaven are just as sinful as those who will go to hell. Entrance to heaven is in no way based on merit. It is stated in the NT that no one who gets into heaven may brag or self-congratulate about reaching heaven as it is not their works that will get them into heaven but God's mercy. Belief in Jesus as the Son of God is the (necessary and sufficient) ticket in.Quote:
Originally Posted by togre
I am not sure that mercy is entirely right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Umbreon
The reason for this is that it encourages people to commit heneous crime making them think they can get away with it.
It cannot be the case.
Heaven is heaven and what is more it is difficult to describe by anyone's standards since no one has ever been or could even be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
I guess yes and yes is the quick reply here. But like most of us I'm in no hurry to arrive early in either.