In May, we will be reading My Name is Red by Orhan Pamuk.
Please post your thoughts and questions in this thread.
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In May, we will be reading My Name is Red by Orhan Pamuk.
Please post your thoughts and questions in this thread.
Aww, what a great book. I've not been able to take part in the discussions much as I've been really busy at work and studying. I've read this one so I might pop in, if you don't mind.
I just have to say that I think that "I Am a Corpse" is about the best opening for a book ever. Naturally I loved it, and I was hooked by the first chapter. I am really enjoying the writing. In some ways the story seems almost like a puzzle, and I cannot wait to see just where it is going.
I enjoy the way in which, thus far each of the chapters are there own little stories, providing different points of views of the characters, though with it all being in the first person it can be confusing knowing who is the one talking.
I've got this book and haven't read it yet, so I'll be happy to join. :)
For those of us reading the book in English, do we all have the same translation? Mine is by Erdag M. Göknar.
Mine too.
The only drawback with reading this was my own lack of knowledge of Turkish culture. I did get the strong impression that I wa missing a lot of the cultural references. It's still an amazing book.
Yes! I really fell in love with this narrative style in the chapter "I Am Dog" and then again in "I Am Tree." Moreover, the flow between chapters, how the narrative of one chapter is almost always a part of the previous chapter is really interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Fantastic book so far - although I find myself more absorbed with the writing and the characters in the moment that I am not paying as much attention to the story as a whole. I think the book is like a painting - you have to look closely to uncover everything but when you are done, take a step back and view it as a whole.
I agree with this. A bit of the politics goes over my head, such as the prophets, which I believe is based in history. Fortunately I have some knowledge of ancient Persian stories, including the story of "Shirin and Husrev" (or what is really, Khosrow and Shirin) that Pamuk references oftenQuote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
That is another thing which I enjoy about the book. I really like the title names, and the fact that it seems most of them start off with these declarations of begining with "I Am {fill in the blank}"Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Darnay
I think that is an interesting observation considering that the story revolves around the art of creating book illustrations. Perhaps that illustray is woven into the way in which the book was crafted. You are right that each of the individual chapters reveals such a fine detail all of its own, it is difficult at times to keep track of where the bits and pieces fit together as a whole to create the bigger picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Darnay
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Totally agree with you regarding the first chapter, from then on I was grabbed. Have you been to I AM A GOLD COIN (chapter 19)? So droll & so clever! I will never look at a euro cent the same way again!
Considering whether to buy this box set by Pamuk:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Orhan-Pamuk-.../dp/0571236928
Thoughts?
I have not got that far yet. I just finished "I Am Esther" which I loved the chapter. Esther seems like a great character, I wonder if we will get to see more of her. I loved her explanation of the many different ways in which one can read a letter and what is said, and not said.Quote:
Originally Posted by bouquin
Snow was the first book by Orhan Pamuk that i bought a number of years ago. It's one of the few books that I will defintely read again. It concerns a poet who returns to his Turkish hometown from Germany, which gets cut off by winter snow. It was really interesting to read about Pamuk's take on the headscarf issue in Turkey, and other Turkish issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
My Name is Red is great. I really liked The Black Book too. It's very different from the other two, though, like Red, it concerns a mystery. It;s stuffed full of brilliant description, and the novel is absolutely full of the ordinary things of life in interesting and evocative descriptions of the grungy side of an Istanbul Block.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
That makes the two of us, that's why I feel like I'm really learning a lot while reading this book.
I've looked up the term effendi - it means "lord" or "master"
I'm still looking for the equivalent of enishte. If somebody can come up with it please.
Thank you, Paul. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
I think I will go ahead and order the box-set and read the other two in time as well.
There's this -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00s54tn
Haven't listened to it yet, will do so after reading book
In fact Pamuk uses a lot of old Persian stories and also draws from Sufism. The relationship between the master painter and his disciples parallels the relation between a Peer (Sufi teacher) and his Murid (disciple). Pamuk uses Turkish version of Persian names which makes recognizing the names somewhat difficult. Nevertheless My Name is Red is a marvelous read.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
Thanks Aliengirl.
That link to the interview looks good too.
I really enjoyed the three different stories each told by Butterfly, Stork and Olive, in answer to Black's questions about what makes a greater illustrator. I particularly enjoyed, in the story about blindness and memory, the idea about painting the horse, and even if you look at the horse first, you are still drawing the horse of your memory and not the horse you see.
I think the stories within the story gives if an almost fairy tale like feeling particularly with the reoccurring theme of the story of Shirin and Husrev. There are points when the book does remind me of Arabian Nights.
I wonder is there any significance in the fact that there were three questions asked of three individuals whom each responded by telling three different stories?
And on a different subject, I wonder why Esther gave Black's letter to Hasan?
I also enjoyed the stories - I particularly liked Stork's stories.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I think the grouping of 3s does give it a fairy tale like quality, which may be the point. I am not familiar enough with Islam to know if 3 is as significant a number as it is elsewhere.
I am still trying to figure Esther out. I have not read far enough to solidify my judgement, but based on where I am right now there is a bit of that "Renaissance idea of the Jew" like you find in Merchant of Venice - that is, Jews only care about money. Esther seems to deliver the letter to Hassan for monetary profit (even though she denies it) - but she also regrets doing it after.
That being said, it seems like all "Infidels" are corrupted by money (the Venetians and Franks) - and even some of the miniaturists. Esther seems to fit it with the theme that money is a truly destructive force in this world.
Perhaps it is all just for the money in spite of her cliams to otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Darnay
It is amazing to hear the author talking about the book. I was a little surprised to learn his idea of the Islamic culture as community-based in contrast with the individualistic Western culture. I always thought Turkey as in-between the Western and Asian cultures.Quote:
Originally Posted by bouquin
I just started reading the first few chapters and I like the surprising change of narrators and exotic fairy tales.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
Welcome Paulclem.
I'll check out that interview bouquin. I regret I can't join reading this wonderful novel with all of you. But I'd drop by to see what others think of it.
Master Osman and the whole lot of artists ,they're all actually extremely conceited, aren't they? The author very effectively brings home this point.
I was quite amused by all their petty bickering's, and jealousies of each other, and constantly worrying about who was the most skilled, or who had the greatest favor of the master. It does rather contrast with the ideas of humility which are presented within the allegorical stories which are told.Quote:
Originally Posted by bouquin
Don't you just wish that the book came with the illustrations described in it?
I am finding Shekure to be quite irksome, I cannot grasp just what the heck it is she wants, and maybe she herself does not know. But she seems to be playing some game with Black, and I have no conception of just what her feelings may or may not be for him. And as much as she says she despises Hasan she seems to still be keeping her options open with him. She seems to want to get married, and not want to get married.
When her father gives her his blessing to marry Black she refuses wanting to do so, and says she would not marry against her father's will, than lies about her correspondence wit him. First she declares herself to be a married woman still, but a couple sentences later asserts her assurance that her husband is dead.
Is she just hoping what some better prospect will come along then she current suiters, but wants to keep her options open so she will have someone to fall back on if she dose not get a better offer?
Shekure sure is erratic and fickle, and there's something sly about her at the same time. In chapters 48 & 53 she's at the peak of her powers.
I'm enjoying how everyone seems to be cast in an "impure" light. There is not one human pov character that is not flawed in one way or another. Even Elegant who we ought to sympathize with because he starts off dead, we begin to see his death as a good thing.
I haven't read any posts here because I don't like risking spoilers, but I'm a hundred pages in and I have one word to describe the book so far: brilliant.
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Originally Posted by Charles Darnay
I too appreciate the candid way of portraying the different personalities, with all their character flaws.
I'm now on Chapter 55 - almost done with the book - but I have not yet seen how Elegant's death could be "a good thing."
After reading the chapter "I Am Death" I am quite curious, though it states that it is the illustration of Death speaking, I wondered if it was perhaps not also Death itself as well, perhaps speaking through the illustration. For there was a moment in which Death (the alleged illustration of Death) exhibits a self-awareness of his existence prior to the illustration having actually been created.
So before the illustration of Death was drawn, it was aware of itself. So I wonder if Death itself, and the illustration death are sort of simultaneously speaking here, if in a way they are one in the same.Quote:
"In this manner, they entered into an elevated conversation with double entendre, allusions, puns, obscure references and innuendos, as befit miniaturists who respected both the old masters as well as their own talent. Since it was my existence that was being discussed, I listened intently to the conversation....
I had a similar moment with the chapter "I Am Tree" in which though on the end it was the illustration of a tree which was speaking, there were moments in which I wondered if in someway it was also the essence of an actual tree as well.
It is explored in the "I will be called Murderer" chapters. Elegant would have brought around the ruin of Enishte Effendi - at least this is the initial rationale behind it. Whether this would have been the case or not is actually inconsequential.Quote:
Originally Posted by bouquin
All the image pov characters (dog, tree, coin, death....) seem to have an awareness that they are an image of what they are, and therefore have knowledge of what they are. There is certainly a play with reality vs. image and the idea that the image is an "impure form" of the real - and the worse the image, the more impure. This comes out most in the character of Death, because the drawing was considerably bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
But than again in one of the "I Am Called Murderer" chaters the murderer himself explores the possibility that Elegant may have been correct about Enishte (thus suggesting that his ruin would have been justified) and he does consider the possibility that his justification for the murder may be incorrect and that in truth his action was a vile one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Darnay
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Spoiler Warning . . .
It is my understanding that in the chapters of the dog, the tree, Death, Satan, etc. it is the storyteller at the coffeehouse who's speaking. I think he would be the equivalent of our present-day stand-up comic.
from Chapter 56:
... the storyteller ... began plying his trade in the coffeehouse, and one of the miniaturists ... hung a picture on the wall to be amusing; the glib storyteller took notice and, as a joke of his own, began a monologue as if he were the dog in the picture, which met with great success; thenceforth, every night he continued to feature pictures drawn by the master miniaturists and to tell witty tales they whispered into his ear.
I begin to wonder if Shekure is actually aware of the fact that Hasan reads Black's letters.
In "I Am Shekure" Chapter 26
I thought it was a little strange that after writing to Black, when she hears that Esther has come back she already knows, or assumes, that there will also be a letter from Hasan. Why would she expect that Hasan would writer to her at the same time that Black has? And if Hasan regularly writers to her at the exact same time in which Black writers to her, one would think that would become suspicious over time.
And than when she is reading the letters, she does not express any surprise that Hasan mentions the dream she had about her husband's death, which is also spoken of in Black's letter. Hasan appears to be quick reckless in his letter writing and if he frequently refers to things in his letters which are present in Black's letters, you would think Shekure would start to notice and wonder about that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Darnay
Esther is wily, too, like Shekure. But Esther is wiser, I think; she has more focus.
I spoke too soon and my own question was answered in the book. I just got to the part in which Shekure openly admits that she susspected her letters to Black were being read Hasan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
About a hundred pages left and my one word description has changed: BORING.
What has made you judge the book as boring?