In my observation, very few people have blissful marriages. Do you think marriage is a defunct institution?
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In my observation, very few people have blissful marriages. Do you think marriage is a defunct institution?
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Originally Posted by Nostalgia375
Are you suggesting that in some golden past, all marriages were blissful? And if so, what makes you think that? And in either case, what's the blissfulness or otherwise got to to with the potential defunctness - unless you think the only purpose of marriage is bliss, in which case you'd have to prove that it used to cause bliss before but it's now stopped doing so.
I think that, for many, marriage is defined by the wedding, and many couples expect that to be a huge catalyst that will change everything and make their relationship perfect and somehow unbreakable.
In reality, I think that a marriage is simply a symbol, much like the ring you wear, of your status of being with another person, and nothing more. It doesn't truly change the relationship, or at least, it most certainly shouldn't.
In this day and age, for the most part, it's more of a custom and a tradition for most, and something to aspire towards. I think that whether you're married to the person you love and know you're going to be with, or not,
shouldn't really make a difference in your relationship with that person.
And, as has been implied by MarkBastable, a marriage is a bit more complicated than a state of pure bliss, whether from the past, or the present. But, I think I understand the discussion you want to circulate. I think marriages can continue-- Why not? Whether people are married or not, as I've said, doesn't really change their status. They are with someone, or they are not. In many cases, because things aren't always, 'blissful', they separate. That's their business. But, I'm fairly certain that most either go into the relationship not really knowing what they're going into and/or go into the relationship and expect it to be blissful all the time. :D
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Originally Posted by MarkBastable
I live in the present!
Maybe so. But the word 'defunct' implies the passage of time. In order to be defunct in the present, there has to have been some use in the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nostalgia375
So - what use did marriage have, in your opinion, which, if it has been lost, would make marriage defunct.
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Originally Posted by MarkBastable
I would stick to the past, there was certainly one overt usefulness, and that was having vanilla sex and still being respected for it.
I'm not even going to ask you why you're so certain that in the past all married people had vanilla sex. I mean, for all I know, my parents might have been having wild raspberry ripple sex all over the place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nostalgia375
I've never really understood marriage. It seems to me a antiquated notion that is encouraged by religious institutions, and yet we see atheists getting married all the time. Does it somehow make you in love more? As someone pointed out . . . no, it usually doesn't. The only real reason I can think of getting married is for tax purposes.
Plus, I think a lot of women dream about their fabulous wedding.
This man has some interesting things to say on the subject :):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXpsT3e8UsM
No. I've been married for 28 years. To expect a marriage to be blissful all the time is not realistic, and to blame the spouse for it not being blissful all the time is selfish. The marriage ceremony in and of itself is not that important. It is the reason for the marriage that is. Love grows and evolves and changes throughout time, there is difficulty along the way. How can you appreciate wonderful times together if all you have is bliss? The difficulties make you appreciate the stronger bond that comes from that. To be there for someone you love in times of happiness and sadness and anger is a proud accomplishment. And have fun along the way. Love for someone is supposed to grow over time- and there are times when I thought I didn't like my husband very much, and there were a few years where he didn't get much of a Christmas present. I'm glad I stuck with it- he is an imperfect person, but the most decent one I know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nostalgia375
Leaving one's dirty underwear around isn't very sexy, either is living with one's annoyances. But having a true companion who you love and can talk about silly things with means more in the long run.
True. More to the point, this is nothing to do with marriage. It's just to do with relationships. If people think that the point of marriage is to make you happy in ways that living together won't, they're always going to suggest marriage is ultimately pointless, because it'll fail to do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by KCurtis
I don't dream about my wedding or having some fabulous ceremony, but if I'd ever get married I like this idea:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBwXl-fGjN8
now that's a wedding
in general I am not a marriage person but if you expect it to make your relationship better your going down the wrong path, also if you expect it to be happiness all the time cause no relationship of any kind can be that.
Judging by what I see looking around me I'd say yes, marriage is a defunct institution. People are having kids without getting married, married people are getting divorced. I see it everywhere. I don't know what happened. I'm sure it wasn't always like this. Maybe its because women are working and have more freedom. They aren't stuck in marriages the way they used to be. And perhaps much of the time a woman now spends at work was once spent helping make the marriage work.
I view it as a lamentable trend. I either won't get married or I'll marry a young woman from some foreign culture where marriage is still respected. Nearly every marriage to take place among my family and acquaintances during my life-time have ended in divorce. I don't see the point.
Oh, that is adorbaly naive - trust me, they will **** you over far worse than a western gal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darcy88
A bunch of western men get a oriental wife because they lack looks and charm and money, but they all end up badly, because if you lack looks and charm she only marries you for money, and she will bleed you dry. I lived a considerbale amount of time in South East Asia, and I travelled the region, and it's allways the same story. White man can't get pretty white woman - so he thinks that he will find one from the orient and she shall love him, she makes him think she loves him - as soon as they get married she bleeds his wallet dry and then leaves him for a man she can actualy love, or a richer man.
But these are the poor oriental women, the rich oriental women won't even look at you unless you are of equall social position as them.
marriage is an institution full stop.
an institution is usually forced upon a culture without their prior consent and therefore is a dated concept that plays no major/important role in society.
I consider a pain which by default makes it redundant as far as I am concerned, with all due respect to those who enjoy and believe in marriage.
Even by your inimitable standards, that sentence is a spaghetti of breathtaking generalisation, unsupported opinion, logical fallacy and almost surreal nonsequitur.Quote:
Originally Posted by cacian
I don't lack looks or charm and I have no problem getting "pretty white women." I'm just weary of marrying a Western girl, having kids, and then it not working out a couple years down the line. Maybe it is naive for me to think it would be any different with a girl from another culture. I just thought a girl from Catholic South America, or the Muslim Middle East, or some other culture, might have a different conception of what it means to be wed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander III
My area is full of mennonites. Maybe I'll try my luck with one of them.
Zing!Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
Marriage is a act full of optimism about your relationship with another person. The contract is not binding these days - (good) - so there's a get out clause, and, though many marriages fail, only the most unsuitable were not successful for a time.
It would be foolish to think that a marriage will last no matter what - anything can happen - but having someone you know well, whom you can trust, with which you can share all the good times and holidays and kids and grandkids is pretty good.
Humm..you can't beat a spag bowl though!! it is better then marriage anytime;)Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
I was right. The rate of divorce in other countries is significantly below that of Canada, the United States, Australia, and most countries in Western Europe. And I found one study which showed that the lower rate holds for Western men who marry women from most of those cultures.
Well, since this "Is marriage a defunct institution?" was the title of the thread, I thought it was about marriage. Also, how do you know marriage will fail to make you happy in ways that living together won't? And again, while that may be true for you and others, you don't have any idea of what is true for me and others who are married.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
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Originally Posted by KCurtis
Hang on. I'm only saying that the stuff you talked about - the growth of love, the tolerance, the sadness and all that - is not peculiar to marriage. It's true of all long-standing relationships.
Those who knock marriage seem to be saying that because marriage doesn't necessarily make you happy, there's something wrong with it.
I'm just saying that if you expect marriage to make you happy in some way that not-being-married won't - then you might be disappointed, because marriage isn't a magic spell for happiness - but that's not a reason to say that marriage is defunct.
So, I'm not disagreeing with you. In fact, I'm saying that you're right about how long, successful relationships tend to go - and my only addition is that long and successful relationships tend to go that way whether you're married or not.
It's not an argument against marriage. It's an argument for sticking with relationships.
So what if people around you are getting divorced. All the friends (except for one) my husband and I had got divorced. We didn't, we just trudged on day after day, enjoying each others company, went to work, came home, had a son, had good times and bad. As the days accumulated, and became years, we realized how long we have been together. We wanted to be together, so we are. It's really that simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darcy88
Oh...... that's what you meant. Okay, I agree. And no, getting married won't make an unhappy relationship better. And yes, I agree that you don't have to be married to have a long term relationship. Also, there are many gay people (before the new marriage laws) who have and had decades of happiness with a partner.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
Nostalgia, in reply to your very cogent, thoughtful and conversation-sparking question .... ....
Anyway - I'm an "idealist" when it comes to love, although I hesitate to use a term like that, because I don't think it quite describes who I am. But in the sense that I do believe in the possibility of extremely beautiful and blissful love, I am an "optimist." Marriage is cultural, but it isn't always portrayed idealistically. In fact, it's often portrayed very negatively, in many different contexts. In the end I think anything is possible. While it won't always be blissful, life can be incredibly beautiful, and it has periods that are mostly blissful. :smile5:
I know that people can be married and grow every day of their lives together, and love each other deeply their whole lives. It's possible, and it even should be the norm. We've evolved so far to where we are now, it is easy to envision a future humankind that has solved many of the more elusive sociological and existential problems that we currently face.
I praise you for your optimism but I unfortunately do not share it. If anything it seems to me that we are devolving, especially when it comes to marriage, seeing as how the rate of divorce has skyrocketed in the West, currently sitting round about 50 percent in many nations.Quote:
Originally Posted by NikolaiI
The rate of divorce has risen, but has the number of marriages that shouldn't have happened risen, or are people just feeling less bound to stay in marriages that are loveless or even abusive?Quote:
Originally Posted by Darcy88
I think that has a lot to do with it. I said earlier that women are working now and so if their husbands cheat on them or beat them they now have options and aren't trapped. I have a lot of theories. The obesity pandemic can't be helping much to combat marital dissatisfaction. All our distractions - video games, computers, screen of all sorts - have to be playing some role.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calidore
I remember reading an article in Time a while ago that said that statistics suggest that the educated and the upper middle class were more likely to have successful marriages. Apparently, this statistic improved even more when the wife had a similar level of education to her spouse.
Also, in general poor people are a lot less likely to bother with marriage at all, and is becoming an increasingly middle class cultural phenomena.
(Edit: the divorce rate in Canada is actually 38% according to Statistics Canada though)
(Edit2: Also, if you look only at first time marriages you have a fairly good chance (between 60-70%) of having a lifelong marriage, the likelihood of your success at marriage decreases if you've had one divorce already)
And what are the other 50% doing? As one in the other 50%, I don't think about the 50% who are divorced, I just live my life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darcy88
I'm soon to be divorced (not by my will), but I agree with you. I will remarry eventually. I will stay true to my vows. I will live according to my own word. Marriage is a commitment and should be respected as such. When people agree to just live together, they make no commitment.Quote:
Originally Posted by KCurtis
I think some people who aren't married make that commitment. It's just a different way of thinking. Many gay people I believe have that same commitment, and have for hundreds of years.Quote:
Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC
I guess I had a particular attitude in mind when I said "just live together". Often times we hear, "We if it doesn't work out, we'll just split." That is an attitude that I've never adopted. This isn't to assume that there aren't those who are living together don't make a commitment. It's just easier to break that commitment more and more these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by KCurtis
That is definitely true. I never had that attitude either. I'm sorry for your divorce.Quote:
Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC
I see where you're coming from. Its just that I look around me and see marriages failing like ripe falling fruit, and I feel apprehension towards the fate of my own future marriage. I take the "from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, until death do us part" thing very seriously but it seems many do not.Quote:
Originally Posted by KCurtis
In my opinion, if you're going to get married, or choose that you want to live your life with someone, you should know that person's it for you.
If you let them go, then you should live with loyalty towards them even as you part, and live your life on your own. That is the most honourable thing to do, to me.
It's a very traditional viewpoint, but I think that our relationships with people are precious.
It seems to me that people have an increasingly flippant, flighty view of marriage and relationships, that you can just turn them on and off like a switch. ''Oh, if I don't like him/her, it's just a stepping stone towards my perfect partner, my Soul Mate! I can just go and be with someone else and see if they fit the bill.''
And that kind of attitude is not progressive for our society as a whole.
Honestly, if you can get along with the person you're with, there's no real reason to separate. Love changes, as all things in life do.
We should nurture and cultivate our relationships, and bring together a more eastern-view, that is, to embrace community and family more, instead of becoming disconnected and increasingly unhappy.
Are there no unhappy marriages in the East or are they less talked about?Quote:
Originally Posted by BookBeauty
In my opinion, it is rather simple (you are welcome! :D ) : Marriage works for those who want to make it work and does not for those who cannot be bothered to put the effort into it. It is like one's relationship with one's body. You might wish you were thinner, taller, fitter and work at it to keep it that way if you are really bothered; however, by simply wishing to have a fit body will not guarantee you those muscles you yearn for unless you are willing to hit the gym three times a week.
I'm glad you do! And you will make sure the person you marry has the same beliefs, and to hell with everyone else!Quote:
Originally Posted by Darcy88
Very well stated, and I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by BookBeauty
Probably bucket loads! Enormous amounts! Same as any other place, or maybe more, I have no idea. That's a separate issue though, and wasn't the point I was trying to make. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
I simply meant it as an example. In many Western families, and mine is no different, there is more disconnection and there isn't as much importance placed upon community and family. Probably in Eastern families too, nowadays, actually, come to think of it... As technology and popular culture becomes more widespread.
But, there are good examples of community and family working together in the East. I believe I read a news story about the tragic happenings in Japan, and yet there was no looting.
There are advantages and disadvantages everywhere, but we can all benefit from seeing what works and trying to incorporate it into our lives. :)
I do like your example of working with a marriage, as you would with your health, and not simply sitting around wishing for it to happen. It's absolutely true, as far as I'm concerned.
And thanks, KCurtis. :)
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Originally Posted by BookBeauty
The East is following the trends of the West, but still the family and the community are important issues here--however, it is not goody goody all the time. Many times, marriages fail because of family and community.