just want to hear everyone's opinion on this, both men are my favourite. just curious on everyone else's perspective!
Printable View
just want to hear everyone's opinion on this, both men are my favourite. just curious on everyone else's perspective!
to me it's bob dylan
Bob Dylan.
Morrison was the better performer, Dylan the better poet, although the comparison is difficult given that Morrison died so young and who knows what he might have written had he lived.
Decades ago, somebody gave Paul Simon the sobriquet "poet," and he wasn't flattered at all. He thought that the term belonged to those who actually compose poetry. I seem to remember that Wallace Stevens was the example he cited.
On that point, I tend to agree with Paul Simon. Don't get me wrong--I adore the lyrics of Loesser, Porter, Hart et al.,
but as brilliant as they were, I'd hesitate to call them poets. They are lyricists, and damn good ones.
So if you were to ask who is the better lyricist, Morrison or
Bob Dylan, I'd go with the latter. He is still with us, thank God, and on his radio show he's got a sense of humor. Despite the enthusiasm of his lifelong fans, he doesn't take himself seriously.
And I daresay his lyrics will last longer than those of Morrison.
Aunt Shecky - Jim morrison published two volumes of poetry in his lifetime and has had two volumes published since his death. He was a poet before he was a performer, before he was in a band. Poetry was his lifelong love.
I have to admit that I'm not as familiar with Dylan as with Morrison, but from what I know of each, I prefer Morrison, although Dylan also has is moments. Certain lyrics of his stick with me, for example the song Ballad of Hollis Brown, I think one of the best songs ever written lyrically. The majority of Morrisons lyrics are nowhere near as good as his poetry, which will surprise you if you are not familiar with it.
I'm quite familiar with most of the work of both. Dylan by a long shot, but then again he has had a lot more time. Still, even by just the age of 27, Dylan had written more amazing stuff than Morrison ever did, in my opinion. Add to that another 40 plus years of mostly quality writing, and I'd say he is best songwriter ever.
:hand:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowsCool
Wow, the best ever? As songwriters go it's Lennon...McCartney.
You lost me.
In no way is Dylan better than those two guys.
The "Songwriter as Poet" question pops up here repeatedly. By and large this seems to be because so few people have any real experience with true poetry. Lyrics from music rarely hold up when read as poetry because real poetry employs its own internal "music" while lyrics generally rely upon the the music itself. This is as true of classical music as it is of pop music. Most opera librettos are mediocre or even bad when simply read... but when infused with the lilt and rhythm, as well as the emotional power of the music, they become spectacular. Franz Schubert's Winterreise is by most standards considered one of the greatest, if not THE greatest song cycle in classical music. The poems that Schubert set are nothing brilliant... the work of a minor German Romantic poet. But is Schubert's hands they are transformed into a harrowing experience.
Seriously, Jim Morrison is a crap poet. The fact that he wrote several volumes of poetry is irrelevant. So did Bob Dylan, John Lennon, Jewel... and Leonard Nimoy and William Shatner, for that matter. Every celebrity and pop star seems to think that he or she is a poet. John Lennon's books, by the way, aren't half-bad. Not great, mind you, but clever writings in the nonsense style of Lewis Carroll, Edward Lear, and Christian Morgenstern. Dylan is one of the few song-writers whose lyrics hold of decently as poetry... yet even then, they are given so much more impact with the addition of the drive of the music and the inflection of the voice.
AS for the question of the "greatest songwriter ever" that is another question altogether... and the answer is Franz Schubert.:hand:
Knowing the extent of your knowledge of classical music,Quote:
Originally Posted by stlukesguild
St. Luke's Guild, I will gladly take your word for this.
I truly wish I knew but a fraction of what you know about Schubert's "Lieder."
When my children were small, they liked listening to audio tapes of classical music before drifting off to dreamland. Their mother (yours truly) used to listen to Public Radio back then and seems to recall the great lyricism of non-operatic, symphonic works which included choral passages: Mahler's symphonies, Schoenberg's "Transfigured Night," and of course the universally beloved final movement of Beethoven's Ninth. Of course, when we read the English translation, we realize we're not really getting the full effect.
Even so, it's fruitless to compare the "quality" of the lyrics of popular songs with that of classical music. They are entirely different phenomena, for the reasons you stated.
I think your response effectively points out what I might have been trying to get at in my reply --you can't compare song lyrics with "poetry"--it's like the proverbial comparison of apples and oranges.
I would say that Dylan is the far superior lyricist of the two, although the lyrics of neither compel me to listen. I think Tom Waits beats all, in terms of modern lyricists. "Tango 'Til They're Sore." "Eyeball Kid." Etcetera.
When my children were small, they liked listening to audio tapes of classical music before drifting off to dreamland. Their mother (yours truly) used to listen to Public Radio back then and seems to recall the great lyricism of non-operatic, symphonic works which included choral passages: Mahler's symphonies, Schoenberg's "Transfigured Night," and of course the universally beloved final movement of Beethoven's Ninth. Of course, when we read the English translation, we realize we're not really getting the full effect.
An die Freude, set in Beethoven's 9th, is one of the few poems in German that I can still recite a good many years after my high-school German classes:
Freude, schöner Götterfunken
Tochter aus Elysium,
Wir betreten feuertrunken,
Himmlische, dein Heiligtum!
Deine Zauber binden wieder
Was die Mode streng geteilt;
Alle Menschen werden Brüder,
Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt...
:seeya:
Whether you think it is crap poetry or not, it is poetry and not lyrics we are dealing with here. I assume, based on some of these replies, that Bob Dylan has also published some poetry, as I know Morrison has. This thread is dealing with their poetry and not their 'lyrics as poetry', and so the question of whether lyrics can be considered poetry is irrelevant. I would like to here people's thoughts on the poetry, as I agree that most lyrics make for very poor reading.
Thats tough. I think I'll lean toward Dylan because I feel his style of political commentary, at one time, was very endearing and honest.
Sorry for being off-topic, but I have a question for StLukes, and that simply is: What do you think of teachers introducing students to poetry by using song lyrics as examples?
I think St will not mind, as the method of a teacher is his own turff. Oral Storytelling, Movies, Music, Painting, all can lead to reading.
You can easily use Dylan, who used traditional techniques once or while to write his lyrics and move from there. You cann't end there. You start there, and shows that a poem is written, it has the artificial music, while Dylan music is not artificial, it is real music.
Another day I read a dialogue between Borges and Bioy Casares. They are upset with teachers that go to define poetry and call it music, while has no sound, it tell very little of the language work, many techniques would not be good for music. Bioy for example said he had no notion of music at all and Piazallo (a famous musician) had no idea what a verse is. Nothing of this stopped both from writing poems that imitate music forms (or even record it), but just like a traditional storyteller with an oral version of a faery tale is not a short story by Perrault, a musician is not exactly a poet.
As the poetry of both (i do not think the answers are cleary towards only the published poetry and excluding their lyrics), Dylan hands down. Morrison is very very poor.
Dylan - he wrote a zillion songs and all are so fine...and still going strong....
Leonard Cohen is better than both of them, plus he was an honest to goodness poet who was a critically acclaimed author prior to being a singer.
Dylan's music is better though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonard Cohen
I disagree, but this is why we talk. I love the beatles too, but Dylan out-writes and out-wrote everybody.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowsCool
Just my opinion.
"How many times must a man look up before he can see the sky?"
Answer: "One".
Very few song lyrics stand up as poetry -- and, as sometimes happens, when musicians try to make a song using a poem they like for the lyrics, it's usually lousy, too.
Dylan, I believe, is going to go down in history with literary and academic types. He's one of the few songwriters who actually has a legitimate (albeit long) shot at a Nobel Prize.
Morrison, on the other hand...Well, he's become a big part of stoner iconography. That counts for something, I guess.
Exactly right. I second this. Jim Morrison is the perfect Beat.Quote:
Originally Posted by davidkk
Bob Dylan's early prose poems are quite decent poetry. And I can't listen Desolation Row or Visions of Johanna without listening the chords in my head, but I'm sure they still working.
I'm a big The Doors fan, but Dylan was by far a better performer. None of the four Doors's released live album are close to the second rate Dylan's concerts, let alone 3/17/66, 10/31/64, 2/14/74 (ok, The Band were better than Densmore & so, but not all that much).Quote:
Originally Posted by joelavine
It's hard to tell if Dylan was better than Lennon/McCartney. That Dylan was better songwriter than Lennon and McCartney separately is an undertatement.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowsCool
How prophetic was this? :yesnod::yesnod:Quote:
Originally Posted by Desolation
I thought they were both songwriters !? Keats was a poet. Robert Browning was a poet....