The Art of War by Sun Tzu.

I don't think 'The Art of War' was meant to be a moral guide in the strict sense that we attribute to morality in Western civilization, in this particular era. In my opinion, Sun Tzu summarized all his personal experience on tactics and strategy (and perhaps other people's experience, too) in order to write a concise, logical and solid military manual. Military history is one of my biggest personal interests, and I've seen that it is possible to adapt Sun Tzu's ideas to most historical battlefields and eras. Not only does 'The Art of War' deals with manoeuvers and tactics in the battlefield, it addresses everything a commander should take into account prior to engaging battle: logistics, intelligence, terrain, morale and last, but not least, the psychological understanding of the opponent. As I mentioned above, 'The Art of War' cannot be seen as guidance for the ethics and morality of our acts, nonetheless, it is a valuable instrument when it comes down to overcome daily life difficulties, it helps focus problems in such a way they can be solved systematically. And when it comes to use such knowledge against individuals, personal foes, it's important to keep on mind that it's best to beat an enemy without actually fighting; overkill is not the best outcome most of the times.

Without discussing the merit or moral implication of war, Sun Tzu tactics and strategies yield him great success in wars. Much of it can be applied in modern daily lives such dealing with your co-workers or bosses. What intrigue me the most his analysis of the elements such earth, water, etc. It is certainly should be on everyone list of reading before their undergraduate studies.

You would be suprised by number of those who wouldn't understand a single quote.

I'm surprised. I wasn't aware anyone was claiming that The Art of War had a moral aspect to it.

I could see how someone could interpret a book like The Book of Five Rings as having moral and philosophical aspects, but The Art of War is clearly a concisely written military manual for practical use!

Just about any written work can be modified to expound philosophical points, or adapted to become a 'life guide', but how can a manual on warfare be considered to have moral or ethical aspects?

Very strange.

You really want to say that there is no quote which you can't translate in your every day life??? In school, job, sport or something???

All this makes me think of how certain classics are marketed these days. After all, most editions of The Art of War that I have seen are really sold as business manuals and books on ethics (something they do with The Book of Five Rings as well). I suppose they can sell more copies that way, and while I don't actually have anything against reading these books as business manuals, it would still be nice if they at least mentioned on the back cover what the books were originally written for. But, with this in mind, I am not really that surprised about the post that started this thread.

However, now that I come to think of it, I don't think I have ever seen Clausewitz's On War marketed as something that deals with business leadership or as a manual in ethics. I wonder why?

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Originally Posted by bazarov

You really want to say that there is no quote which you can't translate in your every day life??? In school, job, sport or something???

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You can translate anything into a 'life guide' - a sort of life strategy on how to deal with business, relationships, finances etc. But I don't think they touch on the moral aspects of life.

There's something disturbing and dubious about using ancient military manuals as a template for living your life and dealing with relationships. It's as though those who adapt the books are saying that the aim of life is domination over others, just like the aim of warfare is domination over the enemy. I'm sure there's more to life than that!

To quote the Black Eyed Peas: 'Where is the love?'

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Originally Posted by Zippy

You can translate anything into a 'life guide' - a sort of life strategy on how to deal with business, relationships, finances etc. But I don't think they touch on the moral aspects of life.

There's something disturbing and dubious about using ancient military manuals as a template for living your life and dealing with relationships. It's as though those who adapt the books are saying that the aim of life is domination over others, just like the aim of warfare is domination over the enemy. I'm sure there's more to life than that!

To quote the Black Eyed Peas: 'Where is the love?'

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If I would say :'Open your mind!', it would maybe sound strange, but that's it, don't know how to help.

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Originally Posted by bazarov

If I would say :'Open your mind!', it would maybe sound strange, but that's it, don't know how to help.

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It doesn't sound strange, just patronising.

Quite happy as I am, and in need of no help.

Cheers,

Zippy. ;)

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Originally Posted by Zippy

There's something disturbing and dubious about using ancient military manuals as a template for living your life and dealing with relationships. It's as though those who adapt the books are saying that the aim of life is domination over others, just like the aim of warfare is domination over the enemy. I'm sure there's more to life than that!

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This may be somewhat off-topic, but your comment reminds me of work done in cognitive linguistics by George Lakoff and Mark Johnson, who have argued for the theory of conceptual metaphor, whereby one conceptual domain is defined in terms of another. One of their standard examples is the assumed mapping between love and war.

Lakoff and Johnson argue that as we use the terms of war (a rather concrete concept) to talk about love (a far more abstract concept) in a rather systematic manner ("He is known for his conquests", "He won her hand", "She is besieged by suitors", etc.), it suggests that we do not simply rely on linguistic metaphors there, but in fact the connection originates from our pre-linguistic cognitive processes. Hence it is a metaphor of the conceptual level.

I won't go into further details as it is clearly not the topic of this thread, yet I must finish off by saying that Lakoff and Johnson's ideas are hotly debated, and much of the linguistic community either ignores them or refutes their claims for various different reasons.

i haven't read a word of sun tzu, but i know this: any endeavor devoid of tender regard for fellow man is bound for the scrap heap.

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Originally Posted by chasestalling

i haven't read a word of sun tzu, but i know this: any endeavor devoid of tender regard for fellow man is bound for the scrap heap.

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this i disagree with. sun szu is a military theorist, thus he talks abaout war stratagy, in war, the victory must come through the loss of human life, war is the anti-thesis of a "tender regard for fellow man".

But Sun Tzu states (albeit subtly - it appears in one sentence in Part III) that the best way to win a war is not to fight.

All the same, I'm with Zippy - Sun Tzu wrote it as a manual, and its best use is as such, I believe. Aspects of The Art Of War are certainly applicable to everyday life, but others (like "always fight with a hillside to your right rear") aren't. For me, the book (though brief) read mostly like stereo instructions.

I read the Art of War and have seen how inappropriately it has been used by the "Dreamers". What about numbers and dividing your forces... surely the generals of bloodshed would agree. It is about strategizing for sure....and things that are constant from time to time.

Art of War is a book about military strategies and tactics. Somehow some silly people think it's a book about management. Capitalist foolish.

On the other hand Master Sun and his advices didn't protect China from many invades by Huns, Mongols or Uighurs in past.

Turk, I agree those people are foolish. They are however the ones that will kill me in my sleep for not buying their mp3 player...farewell sweet lit-net forum members.

China has been in an untenable defensive position historically.

hmmm... i agree with robin, the message is applicable in this modern age, but i think more for personal philosophy and religion (always fight with the Tao)... but i think that the concept that this book is for economics is i think taking it too far.

it is, after all to paraphrase a Japanese proverb, " Business is war". after all
they have so far been doing fine in this aspect, world domination?- think Sony,
Panasonic, Toyota etc.

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Originally Posted by RobinHood3000

But Sun Tzu states (albeit subtly - it appears in one sentence in Part III) that the best way to win a war is not to fight.

All the same, I'm with Zippy - Sun Tzu wrote it as a manual, and its best use is as such, I believe. Aspects of The Art Of War are certainly applicable to everyday life, but others (like "always fight with a hillside to your right rear") aren't. For me, the book (though brief) read mostly like stereo instructions.

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i think that i was actually a very well written book, but seeing as that is pure opinion you can take it or leave it. Sun Tzu also said that it was wise to attack when you had the Tao. to me, these two references give the impression that war is necessary, but unneccesary war is evil, as JEB Stuart said "attack the fastest with the mostest" and so i hold my point, the idea is to attack swiftly and effectively with no unneccessary lives spared or killed.

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Originally Posted by B-Mental

Turk, I agree those people are foolish. They are however the ones that will kill me in my sleep for not buying their mp3 player...farewell sweet lit-net forum members.

China has been in an untenable defensive position historically.

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actually that is quite untrue, thier isolation, and position against mountains and deserts respectively were what allowed Pax Sinica to exist, they have a good position for classical style warfare such as SunTzu wrote about

I believe there is a book applying The Art of War and book of five rings to life principles. I've never gotten around to reading it and might atempt to now because of this discussion... it is rather short. It's The Book of Family Traditions on The Art of War by Yagyu Munenori.

I might have this book pegged down completely wrong and it may be about multiple schools of The Art of War...however I got the impression that it is about Zen and Buddist principles applied to the way of the warrior.

But this could be the key in this discussion about applying Sun Tzu's The Art of War to morality and life.
Also on the Clausewitz On War being applied to life.

I think On War was a much more precise book in its content rather than Sun Tzu's general applications. I've also wished that idiot resturant managers I've had in the past would take a few lessons from On War in organization and application. I can go into detail but its late and I don't feel like bringing out "the big guns". If y'all would like I certainly will but I feel it should be at a different time and possibly a different forum.

This is a great thread. Good posts.

The 5 factors listed in chapter 1 relate well to a modern context. The commander being you or your side. Heaven and Earth being the external factors, while the moral law and method and discipline are the internal factors within your control.

Heaven could be factors such as fashion trends, the weather outside, or the economy.

Earth could be factors such as geography, roads, or laws.

The Moral Law is what makes you and your allies believe you are doing the right thing. For Sun Tzu, it was the entire army believing that
their cause was worth fighting for. For the individual, it is asking yourself for a gut check. Before entering conflict you should ask yourself: Do you believe you are right? Do you have a purpose? Do people agree with you?

Method and Discipline is probably the most universal factor. It could also be called organization. For Sun Tzu it meant who could best supply troops and control expenses. For you it may refer to the strength of your work ethic or time management skills.

I have written more for an e-book and online course I think you would like at www.learntheartofwar.com

Check it out.

I have to say that I agree largely with Bazarov. It is not uncommon to read certain books and see how it applies, could apply, or does not apply at all to one's situation in life. The opening lines of the book tell us of a universal reality;

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War is a matter of vital importance to the State;

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Granted, we can't apply his advice in a literal sense as none of us are commanders. However, there is "war" in every day life. The workplace, school, and politics are great examples of this. If you think you will get by in the workplace strictly due to being nice or super-competent, you are truly naive. Perhaps not every word written about terrain or promoting underlings will help you in your studies or at the workplace, but there is salient advice given when it comes to mindset and how to handle adversity.

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Originally Posted by chasestalling

i haven't read a word of sun tzu, but i know this: any endeavor devoid of tender regard for fellow man is bound for the scrap heap.

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I'm really trying to decide if you wrote that with sarcasm or not. If you did, you need a little work on your satirical bite. If you did not, then I envy your naivete.

Excellent point Nick. Pharmaceutical medicines that cure or greatly aid health are done out of the profit motive, not necessarily a heart-rendering understanding of patience, thoug hI wouldn't deny that some folks provide money or engage in that line of work out of compassion. A selfishly motivated heart surgeon or executive provide helps to millions, and it is not out of a Mother Teresa like compassionate sincerity. I would argue that there isn't one overriding motivation for achievement and desire to help others.

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Originally Posted by David de Alba

I don't think 'The Art of War' was meant to be a moral guide in the strict sense that we attribute to morality in Western civilization, in this particular era. In my opinion, Sun Tzu summarized all his personal experience on tactics and strategy (and perhaps other people's experience, too) in order to write a concise, logical and solid military manual. Military history is one of my biggest personal interests, and I've seen that it is possible to adapt Sun Tzu's ideas to most historical battlefields and eras. Not only does 'The Art of War' deals with manoeuvers and tactics in the battlefield, it addresses everything a commander should take into account prior to engaging battle: logistics, intelligence, terrain, morale and last, but not least, the psychological understanding of the opponent. As I mentioned above, 'The Art of War' cannot be seen as guidance for the ethics and morality of our acts, nonetheless, it is a valuable instrument when it comes down to overcome daily life difficulties, it helps focus problems in such a way they can be solved systematically. And when it comes to use such knowledge against individuals, personal foes, it's important to keep on mind that it's best to beat an enemy without actually fighting; overkill is not the best outcome most of the times.

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I would argue that one cannot implement Sun Tzu's Art of War effectively without being benevolent.