Knowledge is all, for bliss is something you feel just before you get hit by a bus.
Printable View
Knowledge is all, for bliss is something you feel just before you get hit by a bus.
Ignorance definitely is bliss. The more you know, the heavier you are. The less you know, the lighter you are because you are not harrowed by awareness.
I agree with you my friends, ignorance can be bliss mostly and the root of our stress is knowledge and experience. The reason why more and more people are divorcing in the west is everybody is too much conscious about his or her rights and enjoying the freed of knowledge, the freedom of economic and political choice.
But unfortunately this is not always the case. Ignorance of laws has no excuse. And at the same time the bliss the average eastern woman enjoys is due to the lack of the knowledge about their rights and duties.
I must take a different stance. In college I read (or was forced to read) something that argued education is necessary for true happiness. That might be an exaggeration, but the increase of knowledge does increase the range and depth of experiences one can have. To argue ignorance is bliss can only be upheld if you simultaneously hold a dreadfully pessimistic view of reality (Life is pain, etc.). But as knowledge grows, joy can be found in more things. As I learned to read I found joy in books. As I learned music theory I was able to enjoy music on a level beyond "It sounds good." I have a background in agriculture and can find joy in a healthy herd of cattle, a field ready to be harvested or a barn stacked with hay. My knowledge of what these things are and ability to discern the beautiful from the damaged has brought me more opportunities to have joy and more depth to the joy I have.
Likewise, there are things I do not know, yet I recognize could bring me greater or different joy. I do not know knitting, so I can only appreciate the warmth or appearance of a sweater, but not the skill of it's fashioning. And so on.
Regarding ignorance of rights, etc. Is it really better to have one happy to be in one's position because they don't know there are options? Or to be happy because they are aware of the options and chose to remain? Is the obedience of a slave or a son more treasured?
Personally I view ignorance as a synonym for immaturity. To become an adult is to gain knowledge that we didn't possess as a child; to not gain knowledge is to stay in an immature state. Also, with knowledge always comes responsibility, and without knowledge there can (or at least should not be) responsibility. For instance in worklife you only work within your field of knowledge and you will not be put into a position where you will not know what to do.
So is ignorance a bliss? If it's a bliss to be immature, without knowledge or responsibility, then it certainly is.
However, we all lose some of our childlike innocence sooner or later, don't we? Some more, some less.
"The only true paradise is paradise lost"
-Proust
What I believe you are saying is that a western woman may stay in a bad marriage because of ignorance of the law? She does not know what her legal rights are, because she is blissfully ignorant?Quote:
Originally Posted by osho
Am I understanding you clearly?
If so, I think this point of view may be very narrow. There could be a million reason way a woman would stay married.
Hm……are you saying that western women can’t experience the bliss in marriage…….because they are not ignorant and they are stressed out due to having knowledge and experience? :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by osho
I can’t say that much about Eastern culture. However, where I live we have big population of emigrants from China, Taiwan, or Korea. It would be the last thing that I would say about them as they constitute the majority of students at university. Their parents have the same expectations for sons as for daughters. I guess eastern women would have to suffer in marriage without the bliss. too. :cryin:
All I can say is whomever is correct, whatever Osho means, offends me. ftil, your comprehension may be better than mine. But I'd still like clarity on the statement.
Oh, I don’t know if I understood Osho correctly and I would appreciate his clarification too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buh4Bee
I like what Togre said.
This necessitates some more illumination. All I have said is in the East women are not as educated, intellectual as those in the West. That is why they in the east are more ignorant. They are not aware of their rights.Their religions, and the social and ethical standards and norms born of their religions have conditioned their minds not to defy their male-counterparts. Traditionally women used to be burned on a pyre.Today in some metropolis things are different. More than 90 percent Indians are brutally treated. I am not from India yet I have learned a lot about India. Second marriages are generally unacceptable in most Indian villages though today more and more women are getting modernized or westernized and they are rebelling a bit.
Why this happens is they were taught or programmed to be tolerant, ignorant.There are fewer cases of divorces or separations. Few women dare to raise their voices against their male-counterparts. It seems there is harmony,cohesion and understanding in their families. But few can see the suppression prevailing there. And we know the same thing happens in some Islamic societies like. Ignorance in such cases seem bliss but in actuality it is not so.
I am not critical of western sobriety. They are more educated, freer and do not accept enslavement the way it is in Hindu and Muslim societies. They are bolder, braver and they love freedom at any expense. I want to sing songs in praise of them despite the fact that there are more numbers of divorces there every year.
Slavery breeds hatred ultimately. It keeps people ignorant of some of the basic facts and those keepers of ignorance or some socially and of course religiously, racially or ethnically privileged males choose to keep their wives, sisters, mothers ignorant of their rights to ensure that they are served or worshiped. In Hinduism males are considered superior Gods though in some cases females are also worshiped. Buddhism however sets women somewhat freer( I am talking against any religion at all only some ignoble practices and social mores or ills)
Oh, Osho you are turning everything upside down now. :brow: Earlier you said that” ignorance can be bliss and the root of stress is knowledge and experience” Now, you are saying that “more than 90 percent Indians are brutally treated” Hm…...are you saying that a brutal treatment is….the bliss and better than stress resulting from having knowledge or experience? :biggrinjester:Quote:
Osho wrote:
This necessitates some more illumination. All I have said is in the East women are not as educated, intellectual as those in the West. That is why they in the east are more ignorant. They are not aware of their rights.
So, what about “knowledge is power”
It's definitely bliss to have all of those.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian Monkey
Being immature means that people pardon you for your foolishness. True they will see you as immature and foolish but they also let you slide with that one. What gets you into trouble is also your get out of jail free card.
Without knowledge means less options. The less options you have the more satisfied you are. Knowing more only leads to more questions. And although knowing more can lead to happiness too, what we don't know can't hurt us.
Without responsibility? Well that's a no brainer. FREEDOM
Maybe I lacked the skill of putting forth what I wanted to say. My poor writing skill created a fissure between what I wanted to say and what I actually verbalized. Notwithstanding all I have said in both of my posts the essence was ignorance can be bliss for a time and this blissfulness has already paid a price or will have to if not. I have in a while illuminated on this giving a fair comparison of two diverse cultures. I always side with knowledge and ignorance imperils us. In our childhoods ignorance can be bliss, once we become grownups ignorance puts us at risk and I reiterate your own expression "knowledge is power" and do not want to go for ignorance. I never choose to reverse my course of life towards a state of barbarism wherein ignorance could be bless, not in this twenty first century.Quote:
Originally Posted by ftil
Ok. But what about western women and the reason of divorce as you said, “The reason why more and more people are divorcing in the west is everybody is too much conscious about his or her rights and enjoying the freed of knowledge, the freedom of economic and political choice."Quote:
Originally Posted by osho
Are you saying that western women got too much education……..that knowledge is an obstacle and stands on their way of being happily married? :brow:
It sounds that consciousness is really bad…….women may discover mistreatment, for example. :smilewinkgrin:
Quite the contrary of your understanding of my statement, western women are freer than their counter-parts eastern and that is why they have taken bolder steps to live separately, yet freely and independently though a little stressfully.Quote:
Originally Posted by ftil
Ignorance is bliss for the person who is ignorant... Much to the chagrin of those who have to endure it.
If ignorance is bliss.....
Then "competence, cultivation, education, experience, intelligence, knowledge, literacy, talent, wisdom" leads to "grief, misery, sorrow, unhappiness, upset" .......(opposite-dictionary.com)
There is a flaw in the argument somewhere!!
We are on the same page now. Lol I misunderstood your words as you said,” too much conscious” I took it as your disapproval.Quote:
Originally Posted by osho
BTW, having consciousness is never “too much” :wink5:
Maybe you are right and this is the slip of words that often gives a wrong message. And it is interesting this led to a series of discussions and that again made clear some of the points that needed clarity. That is the beauty of disagreement. Once you agree on a certain point you will be dull and unromantic.Quote:
Originally Posted by ftil
Interesting. Thank you for your post. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by YW1990
But does this freedom lead to happiness? Most philosophers argue that reaching our full potential as human beings is what makes us truly happy. What is freedom anyway? Freedom to do as you like? But if you have less options, how can you do what you want? I believe that one has to have power (more options) to be able to do what one wishes, at least if he lives in a civilized society. If you don't have power yourself, you rely on others that grant you power (like the government, law, civil rights, family etc). Or maybe you just mean freedom as in modern american political rhetoric, where it really doesn't mean anything other than something that most people see as a positive thing. :)
Also to not know something doesn't mean that it wouldn't be able to hurt us - we just don't know what is hurting us. I can understand that you probably mean your point in a more abstract level, but again if we get down to real life, ignorance isn't really that beneficial for human beings - it might seem to make life easier in an individual level, but in the end it just makes it a lot harder for all of us.
Hmm, this lead my thoughts to Wikileaks and other so called whistle-blower organizations. Does anyone have an opinion about them? Do we need all the information they would like to provide? Or are we better off not knowing? I don't ask this on a political level but rather on a philosophical one. Hopefully this doesn't go too off-topic.
Hm…it is not a matter of being right or wrong. Even if we do our best to express our thoughts as clearly as possible, others may still misunderstand us. It is not our fault or theirs. I have noticed that when people clarify the controversial issues, they more likely find many similarities even though they disagreed in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by osho
Well, I don’t see agreement as dull and unromantic. There are values that are universal and I definitely agree on that. I view it as a matter of having a strong sense of self with which comes the freedom to let others be without the need to control what they think or do. :wink5:
You said it all!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian Monkey
The individual level is how we experience both ignorance and bliss. Ignorance may not be beneficial for human beings, as in me being ignorant may not be very pleasant or understandable for someone else but if being ignorant equates to having bliss for the individual, then i'll find it hard to believe that that particular individual will give up his/her time of bliss for the good of others. Sounds selfish but it's true.
That is so romantic ( But i am a hopeless romantic so don't take that the wrong way )Quote:
Originally Posted by osho
You know, for the field of literature, art etc that is the topic most frequented by this forum, there comes a lot of cold, intellectuality with the terrain. I find it funny how for such an emotional terrain there comes such distanced logical responses and statements.
How exactly does one experience his own ignorance? :) Doesn't the experience of not knowing something lead to questions and ultimately to getting rid of ignorance? You may well be right about individuals valuing their own well-being over others, but you cannot really talk about happiness on a purely individual level, without bringing other people into the picture. We are constantly being influenced by other people and our own ignorance also affects them.Quote:
Originally Posted by YW1990
It is interesting what you said. Are you saying that people who are romantic don’t use their rational minds?Quote:
Originally Posted by YW1990
Ignorence isn't bliss. It's full of frustration and dependancy on others.
Smply not knowing about stuff might mean you're happier than knowing, but there's always the possibility of finding out and suffering more on relflecting about what you did in ignorence.
I agree that the pain resulting from awakening from ignorance is quite high. It always involves sadness and a deep sense of loss that comes from realization what one has missed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
I am not sure if it involves frustration for ignorant person. But definitely it is a source of frustration for those who have to interact with the ignorant person. :brickwall
It's not as extreme as saying that they don't use their rational minds, but romantic people don't operate on a rational basis. All people possess some degree of rational thinking. But romantic people tend to be more divorced from reality than others. There is a quote that defines romanticism that i learnt in literature and that is, " The Eye Turns Inward ". Romantics live more or less in an insular frame of mind. The world is idealized inside their head. That's why we get that sort of mentality of the " Genius artist " or " The Outsider " that are both highly romantic and sustained through the individual.Quote:
Originally Posted by ftil
Being romantic isn't rational. Rationality involves intellectual reasoning and logic. It is not about how you feel or your ideas. It's about reality ( the idea of reality is contestable though, best left for another thread ). Being romantic is all about feelings, emotions, and ideals.
You trumped me!Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian Monkey
We can't know if we're ignorant of something can we? Hmm you're right about that.
You are talking about “genius artist”. I would like to go back to your previous post where you talked about “ distanced logical responses and statements.” Therefore, I asked you if romantics can’t use rational minds. I view a personality as more complex than being black or white such as being romantic run by emotions and feelings or not. People may be romantic yet they use rational minds when it is appropriate. Can you imagine discussion on the forums that is run exclusively by emotion and feelings? :wink5:Quote:
Originally Posted by YW1990
Quote:
Originally Posted by ftil
Can you see that you've repeated partially what i've said?Quote:
It's not as extreme as saying that they don't use their rational minds, but romantic people don't operate on a rational basis. All people possess some degree of rational thinking. But romantic people tend to be more divorced from reality than others.
You are right, it's not THIS or THAT. You are not entirely intellectual or entirely romantic and one may find that these two qualities co-exist inside you. There are seldom things in life that are absolute. You asked if Romantics were capable of using their rational minds. I said that they were, it's just romantic thinking is not motivated by rational thinking.
Nothing is a distanced logical statement in point of fact and everything is related and why I wrote this statement that may sound rather extraneous is literature cannot shirk personal or emotional quotients. No literature devoid of emotional or intellectual shares can touch readers. I always try to keep both intact whether it comes to versing my feelings into poems or doing them into storylines. Both ways are parts and parcels when it comes doing creativity. You may reserve my points and yet the drive behind putting some emotional proportions here is simply to dodge justify the misinterpretation of the points both myself and ftl were discussing. We are while seeming on the emotional plane were not so exactly if you can penetrate deeper into what we have argued onQuote:
Originally Posted by YW1990
What about people who are quite emotional but they are not romantic?Quote:
Originally Posted by YW1990
You said earlier that, "Being romantic isn't rational". People who are emotional are not rational either as their emotions run their life.
I am not sure if I understand you. There is difference when people write a poem, for example, and when they try to communicate with each other. I personally want to understand another person and his or her point of view. To be honest, I feel frustrated and loose my intrest when the language is convoluted. I don’t like to talk just for sake of talking but to understand, learn, and find similarity. Therefore, I think that communication skills are of the highest importance as we would avoid misunderstanding or conflicts.Quote:
Originally Posted by osho
There was an approval by both of us on point a little while ago and suddenly someone critiqued that endorsement of a particular point. If you misunderstood me you can go a little back and reader our conversations. There is no convolution and I have no intention in doing that I am simply communicating things and some point put forth in one of the foregone posts was misleading and I talked against that with reference to one argument we had in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by ftil
Hm…I remember our conversation. It would be more helpful if you clarifed what you meant in your previous post rather than expecting me……..to sit in your head and figure it out. I don’t do it.:brow:Quote:
Originally Posted by osho
What are you saying here exactly? That i don't have the intelligence to understand what you are saying? Please un-pack this paragraph as i can't seem to process it clearly. Especially the last sentence.Quote:
Originally Posted by osho
Well i wouldn't go so far again as to say emotional people ARE NOT rational. It's just what secures their perspective on things in the world is not fixated by a rational position.Quote:
Originally Posted by ftil
You have quoted one of my points about romanticism and I found that rather disagreeable. If you read one of my earlier points which you have commented upon and rethink your comment you will be answered. If you still fail to understand we will proceed to discuss it.Quote:
Originally Posted by YW1990
I just private messaged you so we don't clog up this entire thread with our exchange.
Well, there are people who are emotional and reactive. They don’t feel, think, and then act but feel and react, skipping rational thinking. When they are angry, they don’t think …but scream, yell, or or hit the wall. :biggrinjester:Quote:
Originally Posted by YW1990
~
R e m i n d e r
The topic of this thread is "Ignorance is bliss."
Off-topic posts will be removed without further notice.
~