Do you think you would be happy in a perfect life?

I remember watching the movie [I]The Matrix[I], and there was one part where one of the bad guys was telling Keanu Reeves character (I think) that originally they had created a perfect world for humans--but that humans had rejected it. That part stuck in my head.

I've come to think about it more recently. I am a very late bloomer, and I have recently started making a move towards independence. I am having new experiences as a result of this. For the first time in my life, I have a bank account and I've made major purchases like a dryer. These seem like very little things, and I guess they are--but still I was rather traumatized when the first problems occurred. I literally cried.

I've lived long enough to know that most problems don't stick with you. You think something will hurt for the rest of your life, and there are really very few things that do. Even the few things that do leave scars that can be re-opened, like abuse or death, you don't tend to think about them all the time. I've also learned that a person always learns valuable lessons from the bad experiences. I've learned from the little problems that occurred recently.

When something bad happens, even though I know it won't last forever and I will probably learn something from it, I am very unhappy and wish it wouldn't be happening. I never appreciate the bad things, and I always wish to avoid them. Yet, I haven't been seriously wounded by any experience--and I've learned many valuable lessons from them. And they certainly give me interesting things to write about.

If there is a higher force at work, it does seem that our experiences--particularly the bad ones--help us learn lessons that move us towards enlightenment. Yet, I sometimes wonder if we would be happy in our concepts of enlightenment or heaven. Probably our concepts are flawed anyway--but do we really want to live in a perfect world? I have to admit that I get bored very quickly when my life is tranquil and perfect.

Of course, I suppose I should define perfect--because it might be a different concept for everyone. By perfect, I mean a world in which nothing distressing ever happens and no need goes unfulfilled. There are no problems of any sort.

If it's perfect, what's to complain over? :D

I understand your point. Through hardship and suffering we become better people. I agree. :)

So when people whine, why does God allow sufferring, they should come to your post for the answer.

The idea of a perfect world like the heaven some have believed in, where people float around on clouds and play harps, has often distressed and even disgusted people. It's true that that's really imperfect, to be in a situation with no challenges or opportunities to grow. I sincerely hope though that I'd be happy in a world in which pain and wickedness were eradicated. But that doesn't mean that one couldn't still be learning, expanding their mind, and facing challenges.

I grew up being taught that if we don't learn to live by the rules of "heaven" while on earth, we would be extremely unhappy in that perfect world. Whether one believes precisely in "heaven" or not, I still think that has something of a point.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

If it's perfect, what's to complain over? :D

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While amusing, this is also insightful. What exactly is wrong with a truly perfect world, if anything?

I am certain that very many have not become better people through suffering!

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Originally Posted by Gladys

While amusing, this is also insightful. What exactly is wrong with a truly perfect world, if anything?

I am certain that very many have not become better people through suffering!

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Yes I agree. I wouldn't complain if you took away all the pain from my life (i.e. work and getting up in the morning), I swear I would be perfectly happy with the peaceful, stress-free life. I just don't get all of that need to be suffering business, though it may work for some, I certainly don't count myself in that number. It sort of reminds me of when people say that they are glad to go back to work after a holiday. I kind of want to hit them. Hard. :boxing_smiley:

This might sound corny but I watched an old episode of Boston Legal where a girl had been sexually assaulted and her practitioner father wanted to administer a drug which would cause her to forget her trauma. The ethics of taking away the experience which will no doubt shape who she is vs protecting her from bad things.

The lawyer raised the valid point that if Tennyson had taken such a pill, Memoriam would never have been penned.

I know that this was Life,–the track
Whereon with equal feet we fared;
And then, as now, the day prepared
The daily burden for the back.

But this it was that made me move
As light as carrier-birds in air;
I loved the weight I had to bear,
Because it needed help of Love:

Nor could I weary, heart or limb,
When mighty Love would cleave in twain
The lading of a single pain,
And part it, giving half to him.

What diverse human art would we be robbed of, if we lived a 'perfect life'?

In Star Trek (the original series), the characters have rejected more paradises than anyone in history or fiction!

If I were to have a religion and believe in some sort of heaven and hell, I would definitely prefer to go to hell. Why? Because heaven would be nice for the first couple days, maybe a couple weeks. Then I would get bored. I know, there is an infinity of activities to do in heaven, but still, the fact that it comes so easily... At least in hell I would have something to do. I would be planning my escape every day of eternity. I know you can't escape from hell. That's the point.

It is impossible for humans to be happy where everything comes easy. It's written in our genes that we must obtain satisfaction from a job well done. If our species was one that enjoyed doing nothing for a long period of time over working hard to get something else, we'd be long extinct.

Natural selection wrote into the very core of who we are that we are not supposed to choose to live in paradise. There is therefore no such thing as a perfect life. Now we humans live pretty comfortably. Most of us in the developed countries do not have to worry about food and such things, and we have no predators. Therefore we create our own problems. We create complex systems of politics and economics to worry about. We create dramas out of our not-so-important personal lives. We decide to fight massive wars about stupid things. We need problems, conflicts and all the bad things.

our experiences define us, I think, bad and good. I wish I hadn't lost my dad and other family members but I am certain that my life wouldn't be what it is if he had lived, I know my choices would have been different and I even think I wouldn't have my boy or my dog if I had had my dad in my teenage years. Things would be different, maybe better maybe not. Also I don't think we appreciate the good things when there are no bad things and no obstacles. everything is just mediocre.

when it comes to heaven, I think,like we see in all above posts, people have a different view of that place, a place we don't even know is real.

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Originally Posted by Neely

Yes I agree. I wouldn't complain if you took away all the pain from my life (i.e. work and getting up in the morning), I swear I would be perfectly happy with the peaceful, stress-free life. I just don't get all of that need to be suffering business, though it may work for some, I certainly don't count myself in that number. It sort of reminds me of when people say that they are glad to go back to work after a holiday. I kind of want to hit them. Hard. :boxing_smiley:

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Neely, let's not be cynical now. It may be that others are doing something wonderfully soul-fulfilling in their work, but for the other 99.999%, your prescription for a perfect life (especially not getting up in the morning) is a very reasonable concept. I hate to feel smug about it, but tomorrow I intend sleeping until I can no longer stand being in bed; I absolutely love it.

The problem is we all have different perceptions of what a perfect life will constitute. This invariably means that our interests are destined to clash with anothers, shattering the perfectness of it all. Isaiah Berlin Negative and Positive freedoms and all that....

"liberty in the negative sense involves an answer to the question: 'What is the area within which the subject — a person or group of persons — is or should be left to do or be what he is able to do or be, without interference by other persons'."

I fully agree with everyone about how suffering is necessary to make us better people. (And perhaps even to produce great art, since Delta mentioned the great In Memoriam. If I had the book here I'd start quoting. :smile5:)

However, on this subject my mind goes in circles. I accept the simple facts that our world is imperfect, that humans are imperfect, and that the seemingly terrible things can develop and refine character for the better. But a 'perfect' world (whatever that means) would become imperfect rapidly if the people had not learned those lessons of self-control, etc. that come through suffering. The way we're talking about a 'perfect world' we're taking it for granted that while everything may be going perfectly in the world, there is still something undesirable that needs to be refined out of human character or nature. But you simply can't have a perfect world while that something is active in us. I think a perfect world would have to be dependent upon perfect people. If, and how, that's possible is another story. And then the idea of what's 'perfect' is so subjective.

We all agree that pain can do us good, but our world can't become perfect through that merely. There will always be those who won't choose to profit from their pain and will become bitter and cause more pain and evil.

What I'm saying is that the problem is not with 'perfection' but what perfection is and how it is achieved.

Oh, yet we trust that somehow good
Will be the final end of ill,
To pangs of nature, sins of will,
Defects of doubt, and taints of blood...


Behold, we know not anything;
I can but trust that good shall fall
At last--far off--at last, to all,
And every winter change to spring.

@Neely--remind me to stay away from you.:smilewinkgrin: I was always one of those people who looked forward to a vacation, enjoyed it for three days, and then wanted to go back to school or work.

You know what bothers me about perfection? That death always seems to follow it. Are there any human myths about perfect cities--like Atlantis--that didn't die of some horrible epidemic or get leveled by a natural disaster soon upon achieving perfection?

It is a good point, though, that maybe it is our imperfection that makes us unhappy with perfection. Maybe if we could become perfect, then living in a perfect world wouldn't be terrible.

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Originally Posted by Brian Bean

Neely, let's not be cynical now. It may be that others are doing something wonderfully soul-fulfilling in their work, but for the other 99.999%, your prescription for a perfect life (especially not getting up in the morning) is a very reasonable concept. I hate to feel smug about it, but tomorrow I intend sleeping until I can no longer stand being in bed; I absolutely love it.

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Ah, snoozing in bed when others are getting up at unholy hours is half the fun! In my thinking it is a most intellectual and noble pursuit, if not something of an art. All the best fellow philosopher!!

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Originally Posted by SilentMute

@Neely--remind me to stay away from you.:smilewinkgrin: I was always one of those people who looked forward to a vacation, enjoyed it for three days, and then wanted to go back to school or work.

You know what bothers me about perfection? That death always seems to follow it. Are there any human myths about perfect cities--like Atlantis--that didn't die of some horrible epidemic or get leveled by a natural disaster soon upon achieving perfection?

It is a good point, though, that maybe it is our imperfection that makes us unhappy with perfection. Maybe if we could become perfect, then living in a perfect world wouldn't be terrible.

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Three days? The people I am on about want to get back after 5 weeks!! Crazy:crazy: Is what I say to them, are you mad? Too much fun and free time in the summer months? All those mellow lazy days getting you down? Those trips to the country? Those morning coffees? Those visits to country pubs and national parks? Those halcyon days of joy? Of walking. Of reading. Of cycling. Of thinking. Of not thinking. Of sitting on rocks and grass. Of trips to art galleries and concerts. Of meeting friends. Of spending time, most importantly, with the children while they are young. Of a thousand other things that whims are made of? Need the pain instead? No thanks.:crazy:

More to follow from me on the needing crap stuff to happen myth most likely...but for now...:Yawn:

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Three days? The people I am on about want to get back after 5 weeks!! Crazy:crazy: Is what I say to them, are you mad? Too much fun and free time in the summer months? All those mellow lazy days getting you down? Those trips to the country? Those morning coffees? Those visits to country pubs and national parks? Those halcyon days of joy? Of walking. Of reading. Of cycling. Of thinking. Of not thinking. Of sitting on rocks and grass. Of trips to art galleries and concerts. Of meeting friends. Of spending time, most importantly, with the children while they are young. Of a thousand other things that whims are made of? Need the pain instead? No thanks.:crazy:

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Ah! You know what it is? I do all the vacation things in my normal life anyway, so maybe I don't need vacations! But I do like work and school because it gives me a routine, which is sorely missed when I'm on vacation. Without a routine, I don't notice the food dwindling or the laundry piling up until I'm hungry and naked.

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More to follow from me on the needing crap stuff to happen myth most likely...but for now...:Yawn:

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A person can learn from positive experiences, I imagine, but from personal experience I have to say that my pain and suffering have been the best teachers.

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Originally Posted by Neely

Ah, snoozing in bed when others are getting up at unholy hours is half the fun!

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You are absolutely right as far as I am concerned. I often wake up at my old going to work time and the pleasure in turning over and going back to sleep is wonderful. Now that the winter is coming, I look forward to staying in bed during the cold, dark, wet mornings even more. For those who like going out on such mornings I say enjoy, for those who don't I sympathise.
My advice to anyone who has to face the daily grind is to go for the largest amount of money you can and retire as soon as possible.

You know it makes sense.

Absolutely right. Grab the money and retire as soon as you can - it's the only sensible way to go.

I don't know.. I really have no idea .
Sometimes we think we could be happy if .. we live in a bigger house.. have more money .. no work to worry about.. and... and ... and .. A long list of our wishes and desires and i have no idea if even after all that one can be happy.
Problems are the salt of life.. and no one is ever happy about anything . Later on problems will come out from no where even if its the perfect life.

It would be nice to live in a perfect world... but only for a brief time.

Sooner or later, that concept of perfection, like many other things in life, will grow dull, and quickly.

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Originally Posted by TheChilly

It would be nice to live in a perfect world... but only for a brief time.

Sooner or later, that concept of perfection, like many other things in life, will grow dull, and quickly.

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I agree. At first, everyone will be all happy and such, but that wouldn't last long. Eventually people would want change, and they would want out. Take The Giver, for example.

Of course I'd be happy in a perfect life, that's tautological. If I weren't happy, it wouldn't be perfect after all!

I guess it would depend on the definition of "perfect." I always assumed "perfect" met that nothing was distressing, that everything was easy. However, if a person thought that a "perfect" world was one with challenges and wasn't easy, then I guess we are all living in a perfect world.

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Originally Posted by SilentMute

I guess it would depend on the definition of "perfect." I always assumed "perfect" met that nothing was distressing, that everything was easy. However, if a person thought that a "perfect" world was one with challenges and wasn't easy, then I guess we are all living in a perfect world.

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I just saw you sort of defined terms in the original post. Yet even with 'distressing things', it depends from what perspective one looks at it. If something distressing turns out to have a good overall effect on your life, is it still distressing, or, with hindsight, actually something good?

I don't think our current world is perfect at all, though I'm also not too pessimistic about it. It's a great question anyway. Extensive suffering is definitely bad, and should be eliminated if possible. On the question of whether 'a little' suffering is sometimes useful, I'm not quite convinced. Maybe up to some extent.

No. Conflict, strife and struggle are what keep me going and learning as a person. I wouldn't have any motivation if there wasn't a challenge or the risk of failure. :)

Society has shown that in times of economic boom, where there is high employment and a good quality of life for the majority, that crime actually increases dramatically.

So there is no possibility of a perfect life unless you are alone with one you love and surrounded by books, music and juicy steaks.

"Hell is other people" after all.

I have to admit I get really bored when my life is going well. I start thinking about doing something totally stupid and self-destructive...like going to this online spanking party or something.:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by SilentMute

I have to admit that I get bored very quickly when my life is tranquil and perfect.

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Ah, but if it bores you it cannot be considered perfect, can it? Your version of a perfect life would be what is perfect to you, maybe not what you expect or consider to be perfect.

It is all in the eye of the beholder, or rather in the individual definition of perfect.

/Claes

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Originally Posted by SilentMute

I remember watching the movie [I]The Matrix[I], and there was one part where one of the bad guys was telling Keanu Reeves character (I think) that originally they had created a perfect world for humans--but that humans had rejected it. That part stuck in my head.

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I think the guys in the matrix decided to reject it not because it was "perfect," but because it didn't give them real or true knowledge about the world. Of course, one could say, that the matrix indeed was not perfect for exactly this reason. In other words, a prefect world has to give one real or true knowledge about it.

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Originally Posted by SilentMute

If there is a higher force at work, it does seem that our experiences--particularly the bad ones--help us learn lessons that move us towards enlightenment. Yet, I sometimes wonder if we would be happy in our concepts of enlightenment or heaven. Probably our concepts are flawed anyway--but do we really want to live in a perfect world? I have to admit that I get bored very quickly when my life is tranquil and perfect.

Of course, I suppose I should define perfect--because it might be a different concept for everyone. By perfect, I mean a world in which nothing distressing ever happens and no need goes unfulfilled. There are no problems of any sort.

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Your notion of perfect is, I think, currently how most of us tend to see it.
But by this definition of perfect, "I mean a world in which nothing distressing ever happens and no need goes unfulfilled. There are no problems of any sort," when you say your live is "tranquil and perfect" it's not really prefect. As pointed out by Claes, this is in virtue of (among other things) your boredom, which is a symptom of an unfulfilled need. If one can soundly argue (let's assume that they can) that humans need stress to some extent, and if the only way to solve your problem of boredom is by introducing distress, then a perfect world, by this definition, becomes an oxymoron. In other words, to need distress makes your conception of a perfect world unattainable to humans: it is an utter impossibility to have no distress and to fulfill every need simultaneously; and this, in itself, is a huge problem, which contradicts the definition further.

As for the commonsense concepts of "heaven," which generally ascribe to similar definitions of perfect, we encounter similar problems.

So I think we need a better definition of perfect. On a commonsense level the perfect world should be the world that makes one happiest. But how can most people's commonsense conception of perfection then be heaven, one might ask? The best conclusion, I would argue, is that people generally don't know what makes them happy (that is, along with the pleasures a daily dose of obstacles to overcome). But I digress!

If we keep the first intuition that perfection entails happiness, though, then, in this perfect world a perfect amount of suffering would exist. This goes against the general notion of perfection but granted all the premises is a valid inference.

To be continued...

If it's perfect, then we'd always be happy, right? From start to finish--womb to dust? Then there'd be nothing in contrast, nothing to judge it against. Happy wouldn't be happy--it'd just be the norm.

When I was a teenager, and still a practicing Catholic, I was terrified of turning into a barren spinster, and attempted to negotiate with Christ over the matter. I never had a beau in highschool, ever. I was the only disabled student in the district, and was accepted in class, but not socially, except when my mother managed to get every hottie I had a crush on to show up for my sweet 16. Never translated into a boyfriend, so most of my sexuality wrapped itself into my teachers, married or not. Ditto university, except toward the end I had a brief and not very pleasant relationship with a 23 year old more screwed up than I was. My only disabled liason proposed marriage when I was in my early forties, and had I been more assertive, I could have spared us both the fact that he disgusted me, but I tried very hard, and it is only through my failure with him I discovered that what my blind married friends tried to tell me was right, that spousal relations don't necessarily complete you, and so here I am, a spinster more happy to be alone than to take the trouble assuring male virility. Still, I sit here, through the looking glass, knowing how much I might have had to offer if someone might have been able to love me for my own sake, except that, you really would not be what you are in an alternate skin, and Lionel Shriver's excellent work suggests you might have wound up in the same place anyway, even if you had made other choices.

One of my favorite books at the moment is The Lovely Bones by Alice Sebold. What I found interesting about this book is her concept of heaven.

Heaven is sculpted by each person's point of view. It smells differently for each person, and it has different landscapes and activities. Oddly enough, a person may not meet the people they love right away who have predeceased them. Heaven expands and offers more as the person grows emotionally. For instance, the main character didn't initially see a beloved grandfather in her heaven until she started to let go of her unrequited desires for life on earth.

That is actually very close to my idea of the afterlife. It isn't the concept of perfect that is popular, but it would probably be very satisfying because there would still be challenges to interest us.

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Originally Posted by SilentMute

One of my favorite books at the moment is The Lovely Bones by Alice Sebold. What I found interesting about this book is her concept of heaven.

Heaven is sculpted by each person's point of view. It smells differently for each person, and it has different landscapes and activities. Oddly enough, a person may not meet the people they love right away who have predeceased them. Heaven expands and offers more as the person grows emotionally. For instance, the main character didn't initially see a beloved grandfather in her heaven until she started to let go of her unrequited desires for life on earth.

That is actually very close to my idea of the afterlife. It isn't the concept of perfect that is popular, but it would probably be very satisfying because there would still be challenges to interest us.

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I was actually going to push you a little and ask what you meant by a perfect life, since it isn't easy to conceptualize. Survival, at least in Darwinian terms, seems by necessity inefficient and brutual, and yet humans have lost sight of this for the most part because we domesticated ourselves, both too successfully and not well enough.

The foundation of Buddhist thought addresses just this problem of whether a perfect life is achievable.

In Buddhism it says that there's a fundamental dissatisfaction within us, which I suppose explains why every rich person is not automatically ecstatic with pleasure.

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

The foundation of Buddhist thought addresses just this problem of whether a perfect life is achievable.

In Buddhism it says that there's a fundamental dissatisfaction within us, which I suppose explains why every rich person is not automatically ecstatic with pleasure.

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I think this might well be true, although there are probably moments when we are relatively satisfied with life. I think that great wealth is also a burden for many people because money imposes responsibilities. I do feel, that a certain amount of money can bring a measure of contentment that would not easily be attainable otherwise. As for happiness, it is such an undefinable quality
that supreme contentment is probably as close as we will get to it but, as John Stuart Mill wrote: Ask yourself if you are happy, and you cease to be so.

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Originally Posted by Brian Bean

I think this might well be true, although there are probably moments when we are relatively satisfied with life. I think that great wealth is also a burden for many people because money imposes responsibilities. I do feel, that a certain amount of money can bring a measure of contentment that would not easily be attainable otherwise. As for happiness, it is such an undefinable quality
that supreme contentment is probably as close as we will get to it but, as John Stuart Mill wrote: Ask yourself if you are happy, and you cease to be so.

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Happiness is an income of £50,000 annual salary.

That is what some reaserach has found. Any further additional income does not make one happy...

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Originally Posted by Lote-Tree

Happiness is an income of £50,000 annual salary.

That is what some reaserach has found. Any further additional income does not make one happy...

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As long as it keeps pace with inflation it seems like a reasonable sum, but I would replace the word salary with income: work doesn't fit into my idea of happiness.

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Originally Posted by Brian Bean

I think this might well be true, although there are probably moments when we are relatively satisfied with life. I think that great wealth is also a burden for many people because money imposes responsibilities. I do feel, that a certain amount of money can bring a measure of contentment that would not easily be attainable otherwise. As for happiness, it is such an undefinable quality
that supreme contentment is probably as close as we will get to it but, as John Stuart Mill wrote: Ask yourself if you are happy, and you cease to be so.

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I agree. A good income certainly helps.

I once knew a croupier who said that the players who came to the casino seemed to be the most unhappy people she had met. Mind you - they probably lost a lot.

I don't actually think about it this way, that my life is either happy or unhappy.
I live for the moments that make me feel, whatever the emotion is - feel it, live it through and live on.
Perfect is just another concept and I often let it "float" - it is and it isn't.
I think about it and then I don't - otherwise I would go crazy.
Life is serious yet no reason to obsess over it.

I can only speak for myself, but feeling and feelings have a way of creeping up on me. They constantly ambush me - even though I'm supposed to be a tough bloke, (or so I tell myself).

I think coolness and being cool at it's very worst is another word for being unfeeling/ being detatched from humans. (I'm not talking about the mere image thing).

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Originally Posted by Lote-Tree

Happiness is an income of £50,000 annual salary.

That is what some reaserach has found. Any further additional income does not make one happy...

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Yet countries with higher GDP per capita tend to also have higher suicide rates... hmm...

When I used to have fans, they annoyed me, which is probably a contradiction in terms for a writer. I did have them, oddly, letters and manuscripts sailing into my ghetto address from Canada, England. People literally drooling over my ability, and there I was, living on instant noodles. When I had my career, whether in the inner city or in the tamer area I bounced too, I rolled home in tears most of the time. I made good money for a cripple, but the stress?

Can't say my ex made me happy, and I see little to get me out of my downward slide back to being indigent, and I can't blame other able-bodied posters this time. I can no longer handle a 40 hour work week.

Writers like Morrison lose themselves in their work, and maybe that is a kind of happiness, and very rarely, I do enter that zone, but not often, because I hear a countdown in my head. Unlike Morrison, I never established my brand and that is unlikely at this point.

But, if anything can make me happy, it would be earning respect in some way, beating out on marginalization, and at least doing a few things that I wanted, my inability to hold a man aside. Material acquisition only goes so far, and being online dissatisfies me, though I am on, if not here, then to network editors, read, whatever we do, but it makes me feel empty more often than part of something.

I am too self-aware to be happy. It takes a certain lack of self-conscious empathy to be happy, I believe. Children are much better at it than adults.