transhumanism/bionics - would you do it?

Yesterday I heard and interview with the inventor and futurist Ray Kurzweil on the BBC Worldservice. I'd like to post a link but I can't find it, so I'll summarize his main points:
- human genes/ evolution are deficient, e.g. in that life expectancy hasn't
increased as much as it should (in his opinion)
- merging biological and artificial intelligence is a natural part of human
evolution because we invented those technologies ourselves and they are not
imposed on us by an outside agency (aliens etc.)
- it's already possible for Parkinson's sufferers to have a pea sized computer
in their brain, that can even be updated without an operation by wireless
access
- in the near future these technologies will develop rapidly and we will have
blood cell sized nanobots in our blood, which can clean up cancer cells or
diabetes
- we will also have nanobots in our brains and our brains will be part organic
part artificial; we'll be able to download information from the internet
directly to our brain and will update our software every day; we'll be able to
create a virtual environment inside our brain
- we will be able to download our memories/consciousness/personality onto a
computer or virtual environment and will be immortal; death is not 'natural'
in that death is not what gives meaning to life; it's creativity and
relationships and positive ..stuff that gives meaning to life and death is a
robber of these things

I found all of this very intriguing and appealing, but I'm a bit skeptical. About downloading info from the internet: I tend to think that the human brain needs to acquire information the hard way, i.e. by studying, categorizing, evaluating and making connections. Even if you pick up a lot of information without much of an effort, this sort of information is useless if you can't embed it in your prior knowledge and make connections. So I'm not sure this internet-in-the-brain would work. Personally speaking, it annoys me immensely when I forget things, but then I also find it extremely rewarding to learn new things. If we didn't have to make an effort to find things out, would we lose our curiosity and thus the urge to learn? Maybe if information was that easily accessible, we wouldn't value it that much and no one would be bothered to create new knowledge?
About downloading your consciousness: Ray Kurzweil himself said that consciousness cannot be explained by science and we need philosophy to speculate about it. So how can we be sure this will work? Even if it works, won't the original person 'die' anyway and the newly awakened virtual person will be someone else? I.e. would there be continuity of consciousness?
Nanobots: I can only say this: Imagine you've got a nanobot malfunction and see an NHS doctor about it?
Doctor: "How can I help you?"
Patient: "My nanobots are malfunctioning."
Doctor: "Oh well... just drink a lot of water to flush them out."
Patient: goes home and dies a slow and painful death

What are your views? Please take the poll (you can choose more than one option)

I have to say that I find the idea wholly repugnant. I intend to remain 'human' until the day I die, whenever that may be. Medicine, the concept of healing the sick, is one thing, but this represents a denial of the limits of our species.

It should only be taken so far: if you can cure diabetes, then great. You're treating a specific, identifiable ailment. But old age is not the same as illness.

Personally speaking, I'm rather looking forward to death, though I hope it will be a while off yet. It'll be an experience, if nothing else.

Mostly sounds absurd, especially downloading information right into the brain. I think Loka said it perfectly. Not only will I remain human, but I will enjoy it. :)

That's three of us, then.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Mostly sounds absurd, especially downloading information right into the brain.

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Yeah, I don't believe in this either, because accessing information (as in being able to read/hear it) isn't the same as understanding it. E.g. if I was able to access a wiki article about nuclear physics or something directly in my brain, it would still take me a long time to understand it. So what's the difference between reading it on a computer screen or 'reading' it inside your brain?

Frankly, there are times when that old adage "ignorance is bliss" is a great sanity saver!

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Originally Posted by Lokasenna

Personally speaking, I'm rather looking forward to death,

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I used to feel like that when I had to get up every morning to go to work. :D

On a more serious note, this is an intriguing idea. Of course, we tend to instinctively balk at such suggestions because they are currently beyond human experience, but there are no boundaries to science except that of human extinction and, beyond that scenario, if a thing can be done, it will be.
I was recently listening to a programme about robotics, in which the Japanese have invested untold millions, and they are working to make robots sentient beings with humanoid appearance and characteristics.
Naturally enough, the problems this might cause for Homo sapiens appear pretty obvious but this research is moving ahead at a fairly rapid pace.
If you believe, as I do, that the purpose of human existence is to conquer death, then these technologies are justified

All in all, I don't know, but I think anything is possible, yet just because it's possible doesn't mean I think it ought to be done.

Death is a part of life, sad in that we miss those who go before us, perhaps frightening in its process, but death is just death, nothing more nothing less, simply the end of the life of xyz in this existence as xyz. Beyond that, who knows?

To leave my consciousness behind is only misunderstandings, world wars, and perhaps a couple of food fights just waiting to happen, so I will forgo that option.

And I have enough issues being me, I don't need foreign bodies inside me; although it would give me an out should I blurt out something inappropriate.
"Please don't mind me, it's the nanobots, you see."
"Oh, the nanobots, of course, say no more."

In terms of bionics, I have a boyfriend who was born with a bad heart so it would be really cool if they could make him a new one. As far as transhumanism goes, it's just not going to happen. We don't even almost understand how the brain works, we're not going to get to the point where we can just upload our conciousness into the internet. No point speculating.

http://www.philstockworld.com/wp-con..._Bush_Borg.jpg

Ha, that person takes transhumanism to a bit of an extreme, although technically transhumanism involves any philosophical belief that humans can be improved through technology. Which is true, there are a lot of diseases, genetic disorders, and physical trauma we can't fix yet, and it's reasonable to want to do that. Getting into the debate of whether or not we should actively improve on things like strength, intelligence, and such is up to debate. The argument is reasonably made that taking medicine to extend your life is no different than having an artificial heart or genetic manipulation to extend your life, and it's a good argument.

I'm not familiar Kurzweil, but Julian Savulescu makes a very good argument that neglecting to enhance your child to the utmost of what technology allows is just the same as denying vitamins, or early childhood education. He argues we not only should enhance humans, but that we have a duty to do so.

Most of what's up in that post is well in the science fiction realm. Genetic engineering of humans is within reach, human cloning is a possibility already (it would require killing a lot of fetuses to achieve though, and it wouldn't produce a healthy person), and we already use artificial parts replacements for heart valves. This stuff is coming, whether we want it or not.

I don't see too many problems, so long as I remained autonomous. I do agree with the previous posters on connecting the brain with the internet, having the information does not equal comprehension. Besides that, I already have a great deal of problems keeping my computer virus free, I don't need to worry about doing the same for my brain. As to immortality, or extending the average human life span, I suppose that the first 200 years would be great but after that boredom would set in...permanently.

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Medicine, the concept of healing the sick, is one thing, but this represents a denial of the limits of our species.

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I don't see the distinction. How is utilizing nanobots any different than using vaccinations to prevent individuals from contracting a disease, isn't that a denial of our species' limits as well?

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it's just not going to happen. We don't even almost understand how the brain works, we're not going to get to the point where we can just upload our conciousness into the internet. No point speculating.

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Why, not? Just because we currently do not have the knowledge does not mean that it isn't available.

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I'm not familiar Kurzweil, but Julian Savulescu makes a very good argument that neglecting to enhance your child to the utmost of what technology allows is just the same as denying vitamins, or early childhood education. He argues we not only should enhance humans, but that we have a duty to do so.

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I can see where he is coming from, but isn't/won't technology such as that be a good deal more expensive than vitamins or early education?

Interesting topic, to say the least... and the above concepts are not new to any reader of Science Fiction.

We started out by using wooden legs or hooks as parts of our anatomy went missing. Today we have progressed to implants, transplanted organs and artificial limbs, sometimes controlled by nerve impulses. Personally, I expect to use at least some of the above before I reach my journeys end, and who knows what tomorrow will bring when Sci Fi of today turns to Sci Fact...

The real question is: Where do we reach the borders of humanity? I have a feeling that they are further away than we can imagine.

/Claes

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Originally Posted by Leland Gaunt

I don't see too many problems, so long as I remained autonomous. I do agree with the previous posters on connecting the brain with the internet, having the information does not equal comprehension. Besides that, I already have a great deal of problems keeping my computer virus free, I don't need to worry about doing the same for my brain.

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:lol: Now that is actually funny. Can you imagine what would happen if the brain got a computer virus? Would we go into convulsions like an epilectic or would we go catatonic? Now that could be a funny sci-fi story. :D

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Originally Posted by Virgil

:lol: Now that is actually funny. Can you imagine what would happen if the brain got a computer virus? Would we go into convulsions like an epilectic or would we go catatonic? Now that could be a funny sci-fi story. :D

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:lol:
On a more serious note, wouldn't those nanobots enable advertisers, Big Brother governments, terrorists and nosy people to hack into our brains and spy on us or manipulate us?

You can guarantee that it would happen, although I've no doubt that somebody will shout "prophet of doom" at me. If evil minds are going to spread viruses, just for the fun of it, how much more is the evil mind going to exploit this.
I think I'll just stick with the empty head that nobody can get into - unless they feed me alcohol.

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Originally Posted by Leland Gaunt

I can see where he is coming from, but isn't/won't technology such as that be a good deal more expensive than vitamins or early education?

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At first it probably would, 300 years ago and only the well to do could afford to have their child educated, eventually things get cheaper as we get better at developing them and they get more popular. The only way it would probably stay extremely expensive is if there is an element of scarcity or market control to keep it such. Doctors are certainly expensive, but most people can afford basic medical care for their child.

It certainly raises questions of social justice, but once the technology exists, you know somebody is going to want to take advantage of it.

Another popular idea is that of the technological singularity, which would be the moment that we develop machines smart enough to improve themselves, the idea is that they would then be able to advance technology at a rate far superior to what we measly humans can do. And if Sci-fi is any indicator, we better make sure that their programing is under control ;).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity

No way. Nobody is sticking any internet connection thing in my brain, are you kidding? It sounds like an horrendous thing to me. OK, so it is nearly impossible to avoid all the nonsense, the adverts, the news etc as it is, but stick the thing in your brain and I guarantee you'll be getting awoken to the sound of DFS half-price weekend deals on new sofas. I'd rather be dead.

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On a more serious note, wouldn't those nanobots enable advertisers, Big Brother governments, terrorists and nosy people to hack into our brains and spy on us or manipulate us?

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I guess it depends on the nanobots purpose. If they are there to do things like eradicate cancer, then I doubt that they would be to manipulate us in any way. This also applies to government surveillance and nosy neighbors. But of course that is assuming that they are very task specific. I think that being connected to the internet has been unanimously denounced, so I imagine there's a way to avoid that. Here is where my lack of computer know-how is going to limit me. But if the nanobots need updates then I think that the computer to do so could be limited access, perhaps even given to you after receiving the nanobots and then you would be the only person to have access to your nanobots. So if the nanobots served a purely medical purpose, and would in no way be connected to the internet or be accesible by hackers with malice in mind, would some of you change your mind?

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At first it probably would, 300 years ago and only the well to do could afford to have their child educated, eventually things get cheaper as we get better at developing them and they get more popular. The only way it would probably stay extremely expensive is if there is an element of scarcity or market control to keep it such. Doctors are certainly expensive, but most people can afford basic medical care for their child.

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That makes sense. Though it seems to me that there would be a very big gap that would have to be made up over a long period of time, but then again I'm completely unaware of how medical procedures' prices change over time.

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Another popular idea is that of the technological singularity, which would be the moment that we develop machines smart enough to improve themselves, the idea is that they would then be able to advance technology at a rate far superior to what we measly humans can do. And if Sci-fi is any indicator, we better make sure that their programing is under control .

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I'll let James Cameron speak for me on this issue.:)

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No way. Nobody is sticking any internet connection thing in my brain, are you kidding? It sounds like an horrendous thing to me. OK, so it is nearly impossible to avoid all the nonsense, the adverts, the news etc as it is, but stick the thing in your brain and I guarantee you'll be getting awoken to the sound of DFS half-price weekend deals on new sofas. I'd rather be dead.

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What if you had all the other benefits, and you just lacked the internet connection? Also, just think of the savings.

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I think I'll just stick with the empty head that nobody can get into - unless they feed me alcohol.

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Or start an interesting thread on the internet.:)

It is somewhat difficult to give my opinion right now when there are no technologies like that which means that I don't know even in broad terms how they are supposed to work and what dangers there are.

In general, though, I am for transhumanism, although there are certainly some alarming issues - e.g the growing sentiment shown by most large software companies that privacy is just not important and if there is something you'd rather prefer the whole world not to know about, you shouldn't be doing it in the first place.

Or let's take solar-powered augmented reality contact lenses, for example - when you first hear about it, it sounds absolutely awesome and the possibilities seem endless. And then you understand that the endless possibilities mean also vast spam attacks, advertising etc. Then again, maybe it might be possible to develop some equivalent of AdBlock. Or maybe not. Etc.
What I mean is, if technologies as such emerge, they will have vast possibilities -and that might also include vast possibilities of spam, advertising, malware etc. And, of course, there might be tools to protect oneself from stuff like that. And so it is rather difficult to judge those technologies if they don't exist and we don't know what is and what is not possible.

There's a lot of talk about what is 'natural', the 'limits of our species' and such stuff. I think that's all nonsense, who cares what is natural?

Contraceptives, socialism and welfare is 'unnatural', this doesn't mean these are all bad things.

So if we forget all unjustified emotional first reactions of 'unnatural' or 'playing gods', we can analyze the facts and consequences objectively and make informed decisions.

First a philosophical note though: I am convinced that nothing 'dies' when one downloads consciousness. At least not the sense we mean it. Death is just like falling asleep, with the sole exception that one doesn't wake up. Every morning, one's a 'different person', molecularily and experience-wise. The continuity of consciousness is an illusion generated by the memories and brain configuration.

I think there's really nothing wrong with wanting to live longer. If one doesn't like it, there's always euthanasia or suicide.

More serious ethical concerns do however exist. If humans are improved through technology, we'll soon have a two-class society. The rich ones who can afford it, and the poor and the ones who object to it. Nazi attitudes are then extremely likely to come up. Furthermore, it will cost a lot of resources, and those resources would in turn be missing when it comes to supporting the needs of the poor in third world countries.

I think we are morally obliged to care for all self-conscious beings, and for the reasons mentioned above, technological improvement becoming the norm is highly questionable.

Yet still, with the use of technology, we can significantly diminish suffering from diseases. Why would that be a bad thing??

Another argument in favor of it would be the 'great good' argument: If technology makes us better people (not just more intelligent and sportive, also compassionate and motivated), then I suppose it might be worth a shot - and even the risk of a two-class society. However, such utilitarian 'greater good' arguments are very dangerous, a single misjudgement or wrong belief can turn it into something like the nazi example.

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Originally Posted by Dodo25

Contraceptives, socialism and welfare is 'unnatural', this doesn't mean these are all bad things.

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That's your opinion. :wink5:

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That's your opinion.

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And it wasn't the only one he expressed.

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First a philosophical note though: I am convinced that nothing 'dies' when one downloads consciousness. At least not the sense we mean it. Death is just like falling asleep, with the sole exception that one doesn't wake up. Every morning, one's a 'different person', molecularily and experience-wise. The continuity of consciousness is an illusion generated by the memories and brain configuration.

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Thats a perspective I've never considered before. I'm of the mind though that, you will largely remain the same person from day to day. Barring some very significant life experience, of course. Any changes would likely be incremental, perhaps in form of the reinforcement of an attitude or life outlook. (The more I think about your position, the more I like it.:smile5:)

I'm still a little confused on the subject of downloading consciousness. Where are our consciousnesses being downloaded into?

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I think there's really nothing wrong with wanting to live longer. If one doesn't like it, there's always euthanasia or suicide.

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Me neither. But I do think that there is a finite amount of enjoyment one can get from life.

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More serious ethical concerns do however exist. If humans are improved through technology, we'll soon have a two-class society. The rich ones who can afford it, and the poor and the ones who object to it. Nazi attitudes are then extremely likely to come up. Furthermore, it will cost a lot of resources, and those resources would in turn be missing when it comes to supporting the needs of the poor in third world countries.

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Why? It's just that another poster has suggested otherwise, and it seems like it could be an interesting discussion.

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I think we are morally obliged to care for all self-conscious beings, and for the reasons mentioned above, technological improvement becoming the norm is highly questionable.

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Can we prove if a creature is self-conscious?

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Originally Posted by Leland Gaunt

I'm still a little confused on the subject of downloading consciousness. Where are our consciousnesses being downloaded into?

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Ray Kurzweil wasn't specific about that in the interview, if I remember correctly. Does your question boil down to 'Would you have an android body or would you be stuck inside a computer/fancy new storage device?"

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Originally Posted by Leland Gaunt

Can we prove if a creature is self-conscious?

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He said in the interview that we can't prove this without some philosophical definition of what consciousness is.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

:lol: Now that is actually funny. Can you imagine what would happen if the brain got a computer virus? Would we go into convulsions like an epilectic or would we go catatonic? Now that could be a funny sci-fi story. :D

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I have already read several such stories. As soon as even the notion of an new aspect like that is mentioned, someone will write a story about it.

/Claes

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Originally Posted by Leland Gaunt

I'm still a little confused on the subject of downloading consciousness. Where are our consciousnesses being downloaded into?

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It's not substance that makes us conscious, it is information, memes. Without information, i.e. if a deaf and blind person never gets to learn some kind of language, her form of consciousness would be entirely different from ours, she would only live 'in the moment' and not understand that she exists.

So there's a rudimentary computer/brain into which one coulld download personal experiences and condition, at least that's how I'd do it. One could call it 'personalizing the default brain', in the most literal sense.

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Originally Posted by Leland Gaunt

Why? It's just that another poster has suggested otherwise, and it seems like it could be an interesting discussion.

Can we prove if a creature is self-conscious?

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Here I was being unclear, and upon further reflection, I think my argument was wrong. What I was trying to say is that transhumanism is ethically questionable because it would lead to a two-class society. That would be wrong because we're morally obliged to promote happiness for all self-conscious beings, not just 'super-humans'. Obviously, one can still give aid to the poor, and with more rationality, attitudes like racism (or speciesism in that case) are less likely to develop. So I'm just saying it's dangerous, but with a smart form of government and good general education, it would be okay from an ethical point of view.

And to address the question of proving if a creature is self-conscious, I think that's actually possible by using the Turing Test. In the Turing Test, an examiner chats with a person, and a computer, which are in different rooms. If the examiner can't tell the difference between the human and the computer, then the computer is most likely self-conscious. Why? Because it is a necessary by-product as soon as the thinking machine has enough power of self-reflection, meaning analyzing it's own reasons and attitudes. From that view, philosophical 'zombies' are impossible.

There's a joke about it too: If the computer manages to convince the examiner himself that he's in fact a robot, then it (or shall we now call it 'he'?) gets extra credit.

There is some controversy about this among philosophers, some still think that machines will never be conscious. I think they're wrong, the most convincing approach and framing of consciousness I've read is Dennett's 'Consciousness Explained'.

Now, a chimpanzee wouldn't pass the Turing Test, yet there is still evidence that they are, in a weaker from, self-conscious. For instance, they can plan ahead for the future in non-instinct-based behavior. And they do recognize themselves in mirrors. In fact, they can even use sign language. So there are intermediates that might be hard to determine, yet with some experiments like done with chimps, I think one can give satisfactory approximations.

Oh, come on. With all the respect I have for Turing, there are simple bots that fool people online. E.g Scheherezade on this very forum - I bet that the majority of people here haven't understood that she is actually a bot, answering questions, contributing to conversations and modding by simple algorithms.


One of the most important subfields in AI research nowadays is expert systems - constructing programs that are used for one narrow set of problems - playing chess, finding the shortest route from point A to point B, translating text from Hindi to Russian etc. Thing is - if you take an expert system built for playing chess then it is absolutely useless for using in medicine.

And that, in my opinion is the problem with the Turing test - intelligence (and consciousness, which is even trickier) is about solving problems from various areas. A system which passes the Turing test is actually rather similar to the chess-playing program - it can solve one particular class of problems - convincing the examiner that it is a human being. I'm afraid that it is more complicated than that.

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Originally Posted by Taliesin

Oh, come on. With all the respect I have for Turing, there are simple bots that fool people online. E.g Scheherezade on this very forum - I bet that the majority of people here haven't understood that she is actually a bot, answering questions, contributing to conversations and modding by simple algorithms.

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Hey, now!!!!

There is nothing simple about those algorithms!!!

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Originally Posted by SleepyWitch

About downloading your consciousness: Ray Kurzweil himself said that consciousness cannot be explained by science and we need philosophy to speculate about it. So how can we be sure this will work?

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Kurzweil could be wrong, too.

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Originally Posted by SleepyWitch

Even if it works, won't the original person 'die' anyway and the newly awakened virtual person will be someone else? I.e. would there be continuity of consciousness?

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It's a fascinating subject all round, requiring advances in medical and computer science that I don't think we even understand yet, so it's a long way off, if ever.

Barring scientific advancement, I see no impediment to me downloading my entire "consciousness" into a chip, having myself cloned 1000 years later and waking up in 3138 AD feeling as though I'd lived 83 years already, but was a now a fit and raring-to-go 26-year old.

Using Pascal's wager as a running mate, I'd have scientific "immortality" raging hot favourite.

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Originally Posted by Lokasenna

I have to say that I find the idea wholly repugnant. I intend to remain 'human' until the day I die, whenever that may be. Medicine, the concept of healing the sick, is one thing, but this represents a denial of the limits of our species.

It should only be taken so far: if you can cure diabetes, then great. You're treating a specific, identifiable ailment. But old age is not the same as illness.

Personally speaking, I'm rather looking forward to death, though I hope it will be a while off yet. It'll be an experience, if nothing else.

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I see wooden legs have already been noted. Would you use a prosthetic, or would you just remain "human" but minus a leg?

Would you have laser surgery on your eyes? Keyhole surgery on your heart?

Where's the limit, and why?

Obviously, you would need to be assured that nothing's going to take over your mind or remove the illusion of free will, but if those were covered, in what way would nanobots be different from pacemakers?

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Originally Posted by Neely

No way. Nobody is sticking any internet connection thing in my brain, are you kidding? It sounds like an horrendous thing to me.

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What's so wrong with that? My computer is always connected to the internet, but it's still completely independent. It lives behind several impenetrable firewalls - a bit like one of those gated communities, but guarded by many fences, within which run crocodiles, hamadryads and starving rottweilers.

Bring it on!

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Originally Posted by Dodo25

There's a lot of talk about what is 'natural', the 'limits of our species' and such stuff. I think that's all nonsense, who cares what is natural?

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Couldn't agree more.

Thing is, by its own definition, if we design it, it's natural. In terms of what sandal-wearing tree-huggers class as "natural", there are parts of Antarctica and a wee spot in the south of Fiordland that can really be called "natural" in 2010.

Cooking dinner is as unnatural as hell.

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Originally Posted by Dodo25

The continuity of consciousness is an illusion generated by the memories and brain configuration.

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Nice.

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Originally Posted by Dodo25

More serious ethical concerns do however exist. If humans are improved through technology, we'll soon have a two-class society.

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I disagree with you here, on two fronts:

We already have a two-class society.

Technological advances to date have lessened rather than increased the divide between haves and have-nots..

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Originally Posted by Dodo25

There is some controversy about this among philosophers, some still think that machines will never be conscious. I think they're wrong, the most convincing approach and framing of consciousness I've read is Dennett's 'Consciousness Explained'.

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I'll sign you for a $1 on the transhumanism immortality wager then.

;)

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Originally Posted by Dodo25

Now, a chimpanzee wouldn't pass the Turing Test, yet there is still evidence that they are, in a weaker from, self-conscious.

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While I think the Turing test is the best example we have of picking whether a machine can be conscious, using it to try to find animalian consciousness just won't work. Not unless we learn their language, at least. It's like trying to prove dolphins are smarter than humans by dropping a human in the middle of the ocean to see how long he lasts.

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Originally Posted by Dodo25

For instance, they can plan ahead for the future in non-instinct-based behavior. And they do recognize themselves in mirrors.

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Even better, I'm not convinced chimpanzees are the third-smartest species on the planet. Marine mammals and gorillas might be more suitable targets, but they're not quite so easy to handle.

I take the position that animalian consciousness exists, but remains in a different and more primitive form than ours due to the minimal communication available.

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Originally Posted by Dodo25

In fact, they can even use sign language.

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I'm not so sure that's a fact.

I've seen a couple of very well researched studies into the science used and there seemed to have been many instances of biased or negligent recording which helped the "they can communicate with ASL" brigade.

That was some years ago, so if you have anything more recent, do you have a link?

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Originally Posted by Taliesin

Oh, come on. With all the respect I have for Turing, there are simple bots that fool people online.

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That's because the questions asked are 'how are you?', 'how old are you' and 'where are you from'. I've tried all the 'AI' programs, nothing even comes close to understanding i.e. irony or humor.

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Originally Posted by Taliesin

E.g Scheherezade on this very forum - I bet that the majority of people here haven't understood that she is actually a bot, answering questions, contributing to conversations and modding by simple algorithms.

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Haha good one!

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Originally Posted by Taliesin

And that, in my opinion is the problem with the Turing test - intelligence (and consciousness, which is even trickier) is about solving problems from various areas. A system which passes the Turing test is actually rather similar to the chess-playing program - it can solve one particular class of problems - convincing the examiner that it is a human being. I'm afraid that it is more complicated than that.

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Human beings are conscious, thus if they act like humans, they might well be conscious. An interesting question is the newly emerging science of 'embodiment' in AI. It has been noted that one can save an enormous amount of computing power by 'outsourcing' computational tasks to sense facilities like eyes or arms. So maybe the computer program that passes the Turing Test is actually a humanoid robot. Not because it couldn't work otherwise but much rather because this is most efficient. One shouldn't forget the power of evolutionary processes and algorythms when it comes to consciousness.

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

Even better, I'm not convinced chimpanzees are the third-smartest species on the planet. Marine mammals and gorillas might be more suitable targets, but they're not quite so easy to handle.

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Why third? If we only count living species, I think you mean second.

I doubt marine mammals are that smart. I don't know much about them, but I just don't think the social interactions are as strong as they are among chimps, and social interaction is the primary selection pressure towards self-conscious intelligence. Furthermore, with the danger of sounding anthropocentric, chimps are our closest living relatives. I think the pygmy chimp (or bonobo) is the second smartest living animal.

In this context, I used 'smart' as equal to 'self-conscious'. I wonder if the two are directly linked or if there can be some aberrations. For instance, I've read octopuses are pretty smart, but I really don't think they're even nearly as conscious as chimps.

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

I take the position that animalian consciousness exists, but remains in a different and more primitive form than ours due to the minimal communication available.

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Imagine a bonobo that learned sign language. I claim his consciousness has changed, it has become self-conscious through culture. I know you disagree with me on that, but I think it's one of the most fascinating thougths ever.

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

I'm not so sure that's a fact.

I've seen a couple of very well researched studies into the science used and there seemed to have been many instances of biased or negligent recording which helped the "they can communicate with ASL" brigade.

That was some years ago, so if you have anything more recent, do you have a link?

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Yeah I know what you mean. When I first read about it, it did sound too good to be true, and likely, some of the talk about it is exagerated. I have read about the flawed methology too. But some accounts remain very convincing, and there is hardly an alternative explanation that could deny that bonobos/chimps can learn and apply a significant vocabulary of sign language.

I don't remember where I read it, but what impressed me the most was the following story:

The researchers would celebrate the chimp's birthday's with all the chimps, and they'd also celebrate christmas with a christmas tree with candy.

One chimp, after some years, remembered that Christmas comes two days after another chimp's birthday. And on Christmas day, he went to the researcher and made the sign for 'tree' plus the sign for 'candy'.

These kind of things, which seem to happen in more than just one instance, shows true understanding, not just imitation.

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Originally Posted by Dodo25

Human beings are conscious, thus if they act like humans, they might well be conscious.

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Non-sociopaths have conscience, thus, if someone acts like he has conscience, he can't be a sociopath?

What I mean is that the Turing test doesn't distinguish between genuine intelligence/consciousness and people just being fooled.

And no, I don't have a better solution. It's just that I like to nitpick.

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Originally Posted by Neely
No way. Nobody is sticking any internet connection thing in my brain, are you kidding? It sounds like an horrendous thing to me.

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What's so wrong with that? My computer is always connected to the internet, but it's still completely independent. It lives behind several impenetrable firewalls - a bit like one of those gated communities, but guarded by many fences, within which run crocodiles, hamadryads and starving rottweilers.

Bring it on!

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Now I know that you are just trying to wind people up.

The internet is a wonderful thing, but it is still a damn frustrating hunk of junk a lot of the time. I went to that wholly evil place some people call work today. They have just got that Windows 7 installed on a top computer system complete with go-faster stripes and all. Well, it took me about an hour to get onto email and open a Word document! When I had managed to do that I kept on getting little annoying boxes asking me if I wanted to install various junk. If I said "no" it got mad at me, if I said "yes" it said that I didn't have rights to say "yes" - which got me shouting at it that there was little point in asking me in the first place!

When I come home my laptop constantly asks me to "diagnose connection problems" and regularly shuts down on me for no reason, whether I am half-way through a post or not. It is also about as fast as a lame greyhound running in trap 6 carrying a leg-iron. It also seems that every other day I have to spend about 10 minutes updating the latest adobe wot not, even though I haven't a clue what that is??

My computer upstairs is much better, but then again, it often loses signal on the wireless connection and I find that I have to shut it down in order to start it back up again. Also, every time I turn it on it forces me to spend the first five minutes checking and downloading various updates for bits of crap that I never even asked for in the first place, most of which I haven't got a clue what it does anyway.

Now all that is one thing, but now you want me to drill all of that nonsense into my own brain cells so that it can screw up my own system just as quickly. I'd say no thanks to if you don't mind...

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Originally Posted by Dodo25

Why third? If we only count living species, I think you mean second.

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It's a way of checking if you've read Douglas Adams.

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Originally Posted by Dodo25

I doubt marine mammals are that smart. I don't know much about them, but I just don't think the social interactions are as strong as they are among chimps, and social interaction is the primary selection pressure towards self-conscious intelligence. Furthermore, with the danger of sounding anthropocentric, chimps are our closest living relatives. I think the pygmy chimp (or bonobo) is the second smartest living animal.

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I'd vote for dolphins myself - I think their societies are at least as interactive as chimps, and taking into account what they appear to play by way of group games, I suspect they're a lot smarter than we credit them with.

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Originally Posted by Dodo25

In this context, I used 'smart' as equal to 'self-conscious'. I wonder if the two are directly linked or if there can be some aberrations. For instance, I've read octopuses are pretty smart, but I really don't think they're even nearly as conscious as chimps.

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Heck, octopi are psychic!

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Originally Posted by Dodo25

Imagine a bonobo that learned sign language. I claim his consciousness has changed, it has become self-conscious through culture. I know you disagree with me on that, but I think it's one of the most fascinating thougths ever.

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Yes, just that "if" in the way. I wouldn't disagree that the act of learning sign language may work as a means of becoming conscious either.

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Originally Posted by Dodo25

Yeah I know what you mean. When I first read about it, it did sound too good to be true, and likely, some of the talk about it is exagerated. I have read about the flawed methology too. But some accounts remain very convincing, and there is hardly an alternative explanation that could deny that bonobos/chimps can learn and apply a significant vocabulary of sign language.

I don't remember where I read it, but what impressed me the most was the following story:

The researchers would celebrate the chimp's birthday's with all the chimps, and they'd also celebrate christmas with a christmas tree with candy.

One chimp, after some years, remembered that Christmas comes two days after another chimp's birthday. And on Christmas day, he went to the researcher and made the sign for 'tree' plus the sign for 'candy'.

These kind of things, which seem to happen in more than just one instance, shows true understanding, not just imitation.

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I'd need to see some serious research, because that's the exact problem peer-review uncovered with the claims - the chimp would say tree and candy alright, but in amongst: dog, hat, banana, love, eat, toilet, paper, water, hamster and ball.

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Originally Posted by Neely

Now I know that you are just trying to wind people up.

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Hell no. A real-time converter of thought to the internet would be outstanding.

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Originally Posted by Neely

The internet is a wonderful thing, but it is still a damn frustrating hunk of junk a lot of the time.

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I never see that.

Then again, I spend more time in my own sites than anyone else's....

;)

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Originally Posted by Neely

I went to that wholly evil place some people call work today. They have just got that Windows 7 installed on a top computer system complete with go-faster stripes and all. Well, it took me about an hour to get onto email and open a Word document! When I had managed to do that I kept on getting little annoying boxes asking me if I wanted to install various junk. If I said "no" it got mad at me, if I said "yes" it said that I didn't have rights to say "yes" - which got me shouting at it that there was little point in asking me in the first place!

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Now that, you can cure in one easy lesson.

Go up to your IT guy/ette.

Stand right in front of him/her and explain that you will personally come and rip out his heart if your PC isn't working properly in 20 minutes' time.

(That isn't an internet problem, and downgrading to Windows 7 is plain silly)

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Originally Posted by Neely

When I come home my laptop constantly asks me to "diagnose connection problems" and regularly shuts down on me for no reason, whether I am half-way through a post or not. It is also about as fast as a lame greyhound running in trap 6 carrying a leg-iron. It also seems that every other day I have to spend about 10 minutes updating the latest adobe wot not, even though I haven't a clue what that is??

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:smilielol5:

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Originally Posted by Neely

Now all that is one thing, but now you want me to drill all of that nonsense into my own brain cells so that it can screw up my own system just as quickly. I'd say no thanks to if you don't mind...

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No worries - I'll definitely put you down in the "no thanks" queue for implanted Microsoft Brainz V2.7.

I have just been reading an interesting article in Le Monde about this subject. Headed 'Eternity Can't Wait', it tells of how two groups of biologists and mathematicians in California are involved in studying the use of man-made cells to replace those that are damaged through the aging process. One of the processes they are working on is the cultivation of enzymes which will swallow the detritus that encumbers and destroys aging cells and thereby block the genetic mutations which weaken the capacity of cells to produce the energy they need. The nano Robots will be used, as has already been mentioned in this thread, to rejuvenate the brain. These are the same size as a human cell, will be applied intravenously and lodge themselves in the brain to repair the damage caused by aging and also enhance intellectual capacity. Through occasional connection to the computers, that by this time will be controling the planet, humans will still be able to 'humanize' the computers and keep their own brains alert indefinitely, while regular use of the anti-aging process will similarly keep the body from deteriorating. The avowed aim of these people is the destruction of death.

Dare to interrupt evolution during its very gradual process? In short, I would not rely electronic devices to process a thought or movement, the compulsive error messages would never let you get by. I suppose I am all for nature, this world is overpopulated enough as it is, we need to be able to let future generations expand. Besides, would it be even possible to breed with a transhuman? Given that they are not complete biological decedents of humans, I suppose the machinery would have to adapt to our DNA.

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Originally Posted by Serena03

. Besides, would it be even possible to breed with a transhuman? Given that they are not complete biological decedents of humans, I suppose the machinery would have to adapt to our DNA.

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That's an interesting viewpoint, but whilst the Japanese are heading in the direction of producing completely new synthetic beings imbued with human characteristics, the Americans are thinking of recycling existing human beings by regenerating their aging bodies. What is clear is that both systems are aiming for eternal life. I suppose that the normal reproductive system will atrophy and die as it is becomes surplus to requirements.

If they could somehow refurbish my old biological body I may consider it. But hooking me up to some artificial system seems like an invitation to misery.
It is like an artificial hand, or artificial teeth, just not as good as the real thing.

I think I will just let nature take its course. I could not afford either alternative.

An artificial human may look human, may act human, but would it be alive? Would it be self-aware? I just don't think it would feel itself.

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Originally Posted by altheskeptic

If they could somehow refurbish my old biological body I may consider it. But hooking me up to some artificial system seems like an invitation to misery.
It is like an artificial hand, or artificial teeth, just not as good as the real thing.

I think I will just let nature take its course. I could not afford either alternative.

An artificial human may look human, may act human, but would it be alive? Would it be self-aware? I just don't think it would feel itself.

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Yes this is exactly the kind of thing that comes to mind, but an artificial hand or teeth are better than none. If for example you are hooked up to a dialysis machine to revive your kidneys, you may not like it but it is better than the alternative.

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Originally Posted by Serena03

Dare to interrupt evolution during its very gradual process? In short, I would not rely electronic devices to process a thought or movement, the compulsive error messages would never let you get by. I suppose I am all for nature, this world is overpopulated enough as it is, we need to be able to let future generations expand. Besides, would it be even possible to breed with a transhuman? Given that they are not complete biological decedents of humans, I suppose the machinery would have to adapt to our DNA.

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Meh, evolution is not directional and it has shown itself to result in failure more often than not. 99% of species that have lived on Earth ended up in evolutionary dead ends, entire genera and even phyla have been expunged by flukes of a process that is very bad at reacting to rapid change. Another nasty side effect of evolution is that selection doesn't act on genes that tend to effect people after their reproductive years. So, we have these bodies that fall to **** as soon as we're no good for making babies. It seems to me that I'd far prefer interference into the natural process of evolution than allow myself to gradually fall to crap to free up more resources for the reproductively capable.

I am very uncomfortable with the ideas of immortality, eternity and the likes of them.
No matter how good something is I can't be with it forever, even if it is a life. After I've lived this one through I wouldn't want a trace of it left if I'm going to get another one. If this is the only one, I'd still want it to end somewhere and end for good.

That said, I'm for any technology that can reduce pain and suffering in any way.