The puzzle of the socalled "Bach variations".

The Bach variations.

Following the solution of many other 18th classical music puzzles in this forum (primarily "The Manufacture of Mozart" by Robert Newman-ehmmm-and "The puzzle of Beethoven's Kochs" by yourstruly) Bach's famous variations (also known as "Goldberg variations", the re "tale" manufactured by musicologist "Nicolaus Forkel") can now easily be put in historic context and explained.

Interested parties are wellcome to study carefully thru am threads...

as well as....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldberg_Variations

http://www.keyserlingk.info/default....44&city=FAMILY

.....AND....

http://www.box.net/shared/iypxjy9f6g (last relative online publication-Sept 16, 2009 by Alexander Nicolas Graf Keyserlingk)

...and then declare herein their interest to participate in the discussion and assist in finding the solution to the title's puzzle.

Greetings from Athens Greece!

http://schillerinstitute.com/fid_97-...h_mus_off.html

‘Thinking Through Singing’ The Strategic Significance of J.S. Bach’s Musical Offering by David Shavin (Fidelio, Vol. IX ,No, 4. Winter 2000).

A half-truth naturally, the term "excellent" referring to the precise chirurgical excision of the other half of 18th century german history, culture included.

Count Hermann Keyserling is the founder of the School of Wisdom in modern times. His son, Professor Arnold Keyserling, Vienna, Austria, is a well known philosopher and spiritual leader in Europe today. Count Keyserling is the author of numerous books, many of which were best sellers in the 1920's in Europe, North America, and South America, including The Travel Diary of a Philosopher, America Set Free, Europe, The World in the Making, The Book of Marriage, Immortality, Creative Understanding, South American Meditations.

Count Keyserling is the first Western thinker to conceive and promote a planetary culture, beyond nationalism and cultural ethnocentrism, based on recognition of the equal value and validity of non-western cultures and philosophies. He founded the School of Wisdom in Darmstadt,* Germany in 1920 based on the original Schools of Wisdom which prospered over two thousand years ago in Northern India under Buddhist rule. Unlike other spiritual leaders of the day, he did not set himself up as a guru, or establish any kind of personality cult. Instead he encouraged the equal participation of many others, including his friends, Carl Jung, Richard Wilhelm, Rabindranath Tagore, and Hermann Hessee.

Hermann Keyserling was a heriditary Count from the Baltic country of Estonia. His families position and estate in Estonia went back centuries, to the early days when Estonia first became a province of Germany. One of his ancestors is the Count Keyserling who commissioned Bach to create the Brandenberg concertos.

http://www.schoolofwisdom.com/count.html

*On Darmstadt see last post of http://www.online-literature.com/for...834#post883834

:gnorsi:

When the musical career of G.F. Handel was being invented for the glory of the elites of the British Empire at Hamburg, later in Venice, Rome and of course London (with the assistance of the Elector of Hanover, dignataries of Italy, more than 6 Roman Catholic Cardinals in Rome and Venice and a dozen convenient patronising aristocrats of the British Empire - themselves close associates of Rome, plus the input of numerous Italian opera composers whose names are today almost unknown and whose contribution to 'Handel's' music is still to this day overlooked - and at a time when tens of thousands of non-Catholics were still being forcibly evicted from their own homes in the city of Salzburg for no other crime than not being Roman Catholic ) - and with even more help from the fraternity members of the Privy Council of England itself) - then, over the decades, the history of music (so-called) was about to be 'excised' and grossly invented. By none other than those who invented 'history' themselves. By wholesale invention and wholesale omission of entire musical careers. To the point where a stunned Viennese audience finally (and reluctantly) agreed to stage the first performance of a musical work of J.S. Bach in their capital city, in 1847 (nearly a century after the composer's death). And not without complaint. A strange pattern of behaviour matched only by London itself, by Italy, and by the rest of musical Europe.

'Vienna, city of music, and of musical amnesia'.

When "Brandenburg" is mentioned, Handel comes automatically to mind-his birthpalce-instead of JSBach. The two, both protestants, were born the same year too and I have yet to see an answer to the question 'why Bach wrote the Brandenburg concertos and not Handel?'.

But my focus in this thread is the manufacture of JSBach by youknowwho (G.Cocchi and aliases, ie Wieland, WFBach, JCBach, Koch, Keyserlingk....and Pierre Michel Hennin).

Salute!

Pierre Michel Hennin has already been identified as one of Gioachino Cocchi's many aliases (including Comte de Saint Germain and Johann Christian Bach among others) but where is the evidence that he was somehow involved in Johann Sebastian Bach's "manufacture" or that he had something to do with the socalled "Bach" or "Goldberg" variations?

JSBach's "relations" to "Cocceji-Koch-Cocchi" have already been outlined in "The puzzle of Beethoven's Kochs" (where JS Bach's Koch associates have been briefly mentioned).

With regard to Cocchi-Koch's involvement in the Variations as well, here is a short selection from various sources answering both above questions:

We know from Bach's nephew and private secretary, Johann Elias Bach, that in 1739 Weiss visited Bach in Leipzig, together with Johann Christian Bach, and over the course of several weeks, 'extra special' music was heard in the Bach household. [1.11]

Fracois Algarotti Le 20 septembre 1739, il se rendit à Rheinsberg, avec lord Baltimore, pour voir le Prince royal,I-a qui dès lors lui accorda son amitié, et entra en correspondance avec lui. Immédiatement après son avénement, Frédéric l'appela à sa cour, le distingua de toute manière,I-b le nomma comte, le 20 décembre 1740, et, au mois d'avril 1747, chambellan et chevalier de l'ordre pour le mérite.

In 1741, at the age of 56, Bach visited Berlin for the first time, and discussed with his son, C.P.E. (Emanuel) Bach, Frederick’s harpsichordist, the situation with the new king. Immediately upon his return to Leipzig, in deliberations with his key political supporter and strategist, Count Keyserling, Bach launched the intensive project that occupied his last decade—stretching dimensionalities with fugal puzzles, and pedagogically displaying the steps involved in expanding one’s mind. When Bach composed his “Goldberg Variations”—named for Count Keyserling’s keyboardist, Johann Gottlieb Goldberg—Bach also provided a series of canons which took the thematic idea under consideration,

Nach älteren Ausgaben von „Groves Dictionary of Music“ (3. Aufl. 1938) ist derjenige, der ca. 1745 in London Musik unter dem Namen St. Germain veröffentlichte, der italienische Komponist und Violinist Giovannini, bekannt als Autor von „Willst du dein Herz mir schenken“ im Notenbüchlein der Anna Magdalena Bach*. Er lebte seit 1740 in Berlin und starb 1782. Dies scheint auf einer Verwechslung zu beruhen, die zuerst in einem Künstler-Lexikon von Gerber 1812 unterlaufen war[17]. In London trug Saint-Germain unter anderem einige Arien für die mäßig erfolgreiche Oper des italienischen Opernkomponisten Brivio bei (arrangiert von Geminiani), die die Samstage vom 9. Februar bis 20. April 1745 im Haymarket Theater aufgeführt wurde. Er studierte dabei auch einige Lieder mit der Sängerin Giulia Frasi ein. Bei einigen Privatkonzerten sang Saint Germain auch selbst. Lady Jemima Grey ist von seinem Stil, der Emotionen sehr plastisch zum Ausdruck bringt, und seiner schwachen Stimme nicht sehr erbaut: His manner is beyond any description.

(Translation of german text: "As per Grove dictionary of Music (3rd edition 1938) the man who played music ca.1745 in London under the name of Saint Germain was the italian composer and violinist Giovannini, known author of "Will you give me your heart?" in the notebook of Anna Magdalena Bach. He lived as from 1740 in Berlin and died 1782**.This tends to clarify a relative mixup in Gerber's Artists-Lexicon of 1812. In London Saint Germain presented among others his own arias for the very popular opera L'incostanza delusa of italian composer Brivio (arranged by Geminiani) staged Saturdays from February 9th to April 20th 1745*** in Haymarket theater..." etc.)

But we have already established elsewhere that Brivio was Cocchi/Saint Germain (See: http://www.online-literature.com/for...d.php?p=873911 post 96) ie Gerber was propably trying to say something close to the truth in 1812(!) and Grove covered up in 1938!

Furthermore:

A separate research supports "Kaiserling" or "Keyserlingk" (Wieland's, CPEBach's and or JCBach's alleged relative input to Forkel for his tale on "Bach's" variations) as yet another Cocchi alias or later "invention", the parallel diplomatic careers of Hennin and Keyserlingk being remarkably similar, "Keyserlingk" taken off circulation (his "death" in 1764) following Poniatowski's coronation in Poland as follows:

Herman Karl von Keyserling envoy extraordinary (poseł nadzwyczajny) and minister plenipotentiary (minister pełnomocny) 1763 to 30th September 1764(his death).

Hennin exerçait les fonctions de Résident de France à Varsovie depuis le mois de décembre 1763; il dut ensuite quitter la Pologne, sans doute à la suite de la pression exercée par le parti russe triomphant. Selon le Repertorium (tome 3, p. 130), il est parti le 18 octobre 1764 ou peut-être le 16 juillet.

There is much more evidence available (on Cocceji, Collini, Hennin, Wieland=Rousseau, Grimm, Collini, Voltaire etc) for the period and beyond, some already presented, to support all above.

Finally, on "a" (of irish descent apparently) Lord Baltimore, Algarotti (propably another alias of Cocchi) and how history is written, see Thomas Carlyle relative 1858 letter here: http://carlyleletters.dukejournals.o...80318-TC-JN-01

:patriot:

*Anna Magdalena was allegedly ill at the time (1741).

**1782 is the year Johann Christian Bach "died" in London.

***Walpole, Correspondence, Yale, v.26 (1954). Letter to Horace Mann, 9 Dec 1745, pp.20-21.St Germain is released although previously accused for spying. Walpole writes: "He sings, plays on the violin wonderfully, composes, is mad, and not very sensible."

Cocchi's other alias, Gluck: In 1745, Gluck left Italy for London, where he had been asked to be house composer at the King’s Theatre. He gave two operas there and played two concerts on the musical glasses. He may also have met Handel, who is supposed to have said of the younger composer, “He knows no more of counterpoint than my cook.” Gluck’s London sojourn was short, as he was in Dresden by June 1747, composing operas for and possibly singing with a traveling opera troupe run by Pietro Mingotti

Vaneschi,author of L'Incostanza's lyrics (with Saint Germain supplying the music),cooperated immediately after with Gluck as above.

Hi there Yanni,

You have been in a forest so long you cannot see the wood for the trees. Why not read a biography or two on the life of G.F. Handel ? For example ? Or why not read the Italian background to Handel's early and later career and its patronage by leading papal secretaries and by a string of cardinals, all of whom were members of fraternities ? This too is irrelevant, right ? It will then become crystal clear Handel's career was stage managed from the virtual start. Even before he left Germany. Since the first 3 'Handel' operas were not his and were disputed even before he left Germany. And was then feted and celebrated by the cardinals of Rome, no less ! Handel the 'Lutheran' composer being wined and dined by occultists in Venice and Rome, by leading managers of music in Italy, by the Guelph faction in Hanover (who created and manipulated their takeover of the monarchy in England in the early 18th century) ! Does this not strike you as being an odd series of facts ? As being strange ? At a time when entire cities in Austria and in Germany were being cleared of non-Catholic residents ? I mean, at what point, Yanni, do the facts of history start to mean anything in the history of music ? All of Handel's early career was being deliberately stage managed. With the connivance of the Elector of Hanover -soon to be king of England. And his family and elites. Plus the elites of Rome and Venice. As usual. The same G.F. Handel who somehow could not once meet Bach, though he tried 3 times in succession to meet him and may even have written the English Suites for him ? And without a single reference in Handel to Bach ! Nor elsewhere in music publications or references of the time. Does it not seem, when you read the record of Handel's early, middle and late career that he and his reputation were being invented for the glory of a British Empire with the musical assistance of various Italian composers, now married to the success of this recently arrived Hanoverian dynasty, who had taken over England (with the full connivance of Rome and the Venetians) ?

You speak of Cocchi. Well, may I suggest you do some reading of Cocchi and Handel. That clan were in close association with the musical network already described. By correspondence. If you cannot find the evidence just ask me. In Venice and again in Rome. They (the Cocchi clan) were part of Handel's Italian experience. (As they were later with Mozart's arrival in London).

You suggest Handel may have written the 'Brandenburg Concertos'. Care to provide us with a shred of evidence ? The early works of Handel consist of precisely what ? When, in fact, the celebrity was to be entirely that of a Rome patronised Handel. Aided and abetted by English aristocrats loyal to Rome themselves. When Bach, as already said, was virtually unknown to the musical public of Europe for a century after his death, even of England, and remained unperformed and unpublished until well in to the 19th century - this with so few exceptions it becomes almost laughable.

The best criticism of Bach would be to produce some evidence, don't you think ? Since, tons of evidence shows the scale of political and ecclesiastical intrigue in making the careers of Handel and Mozart but none at all with J.S. Bach.

Maybe you are hoping if enough 'mud' is thrown some will stick ? Although, in plain sight, is as said evidence of collusion, manipulation, and fraternal invention (wholesale) in the English career of G.F. Handel, in that of W.A. Mozart and so many others. Amnesia gives way to double vision and leads to eventual deafness. But why bring Beethoven into our conversation ? (LOL)

Regards

I never suggested "Handel may have written the Brandenbourg concertos" as you write (he did however, if you believe his story as it still reads), I merely quoted a "wise" Keyserlingk in fact (author of "many bestsellers" that promoted "our" englightment thru budhism-not a bad idea afterall-between WWI and II) who claimed his Keyserlingk ancestor commissioned Bach for the Brandenburg concertos as well, ie possibly implying that Handel and Bach were one and the same (propably true but not in the subject other than sharing a common odour, hence the quote).

My focus and the subject of this thread are "The socalled Bach variations" and it's quite obvious you select to avoid it, escaping via Handel, instead of disputing -or even commenting upon-my modest presentation of findings, a collage from various sources.

Feel free to present any documents available on Cocchi, including any eventual correspondence with Handel!!

You say "a forest", I insist on "a pile of Grove-ling garbage" in urgent need of processing.

BTW Do you see any link of "Lord Baltimore's" 1739 visit to prince, soon after Kaiser, Frederick of Prussia and events "across the pond" that followed?

I do!

Regards.

Yanni,

I can assure you (and have said this many times) that the career of the Cocchi clan was associated with the Holy Roman Empire domination of opera and the musical scene. And it included association with major church and secular leaders from before the time of Handel, during Handel's time, and beyond.

Cocchi's were part of that fraternal network.

I cannot take part in your thread because I do not understand, exactly, what the 'puzzle' is, let alone the 'solution'.

Yanni,

I can assure you (and have said this many times) that the career of the Cocchi clan was associated with the Holy Roman Empire domination of opera and the musical scene. And it included association with major church and secular leaders from before the time of Handel, during Handel's time, and beyond.

Cocchi's were part of that fraternal network.

Obviously "Thinking through singing" doesn't always work, Robert. To reinforce your higher chakras, you should perhaps try Keyserlingk's http://www.schoolofwisdom.com/school.html.

One of their founders (Hermann or his son Arnold) was Reichschancellor's Bismarck's grandson!

Call again when ready.

Regards.

Quoting Wikipedia on Thomas Carlyle's relative (to the above) work:

His last major work was the epic life of Frederick the Great (1858–1865). In this Carlyle tried to show how a heroic leader can forge a state, and help create a new moral culture for a nation. For Carlyle, Frederick epitomized the transition from the liberal Enlightenment ideals of the eighteenth century to a new modern culture of spiritual dynamism: embodied by Germany, its thought and its polity. The book is most famous for its vivid, arguably very biased, portrayal of Frederick's battles, in which Carlyle communicated his vision of almost overwhelming chaos mastered by leadership of genius. However, the effort involved in the writing of the book took its toll on Carlyle, who became increasingly depressed, and subject to various probably psychosomatic ailments. Its mixed reception also contributed to Carlyle's decreased literary output.

He should have studied Budha instead as well!

the effort involved in the writing of the book took its toll on Carlyle, who became increasingly depressed, and subject to various probably psychosomatic ailments.

One might suspect that Carlyle wasn't the only one so afflicted.:sosp:

All we need are a few icons. Secularised, of course ! Who will dominate our cultural, academic and even musical landscape. Created by and presided over by the same elites. Providing us with our 'education'. Drip-fed to us by the experts of culture through the music industry as we continue our lives on Easter Island, west of Chile, in the South Atlantic. And, as for the facts of history, these to be 'sanitised' (as usual) with the usual suppression of 99.9% of reality. Mission accomplished.

If facts are inconvenient we can always watch 'Amadeus', whose trailer says, 'Everything you've heard is true'.

This process qualifies us to be described as 'educated', 'musical', and 'cultured', and we may take our place in polite company at cucumber sandwich parties sponsored by the Baron of Monrovia, the Duchess of Venice, and by the unelected patrons of our dynastic feudal system.

It has been well said that every civilization defines itself by the myths to which it subscribes. I see no reason to doubt this. Meanwhile, the never ending war on error continues, chocolate rations are about to be increased, and razor blades remain in short supply. You will pardon the shortness of this post. I am too busy bailing out the corporate bankers of London. And trying to avoid walking in to the lamp-posts of our musical history.


:rofl:

Robert

Au contraire, Mme ! I have never been more happy, more content. There is more culture in the growing of a carrot or a potato than in any 'Mozart' symphony. I consider compost to be of more cosmic significance than the 'great' composers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stlukesguild

the effort involved in the writing of the book took its toll on Carlyle, who became increasingly depressed, and subject to various probably psychosomatic ailments.

One might suspect that Carlyle wasn't the only one so afflicted.:sosp:

---

Easter islands were in the South Pacific last time I looked.

Interesting story, how the natives wellcomed "free trade" in 1722:

They fought each other to death but before they vanished (sometime late 18th cent) they-at least-pulled down all their idols-false prophets(statues erected with great pain to the memory of their ancestors).

How wise of you to insist on growing organic potatoes and carrots (from now on), Robert.

Regards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

All we need are a few icons. Secularised, of course ! Who will dominate our cultural, academic and even musical landscape. Created by and presided over by the same elites. Providing us with our 'education'. Drip-fed to us by the experts of culture through the music industry as we continue our lives on Easter Island, west of Chile, in the South Atlantic. And, as for the facts of history, these to be 'sanitised' (as usual) with the usual suppression of 99.9% of reality. Mission accomplished.

If facts are inconvenient we can always watch 'Amadeus', whose trailer says, 'Everything you've heard is true'.

This process qualifies us to be described as 'educated', 'musical', and 'cultured', and we may take our place in polite company at cucumber sandwich parties sponsored by the Baron of Monrovia, the Duchess of Venice, and by the unelected patrons of our dynastic feudal system.

It has been well said that every civilization defines itself by the myths to which it subscribes. I see no reason to doubt this. Meanwhile, the never ending war on error continues, chocolate rations are about to be increased, and razor blades remain in short supply. You will pardon the shortness of this post. I am too busy bailing out the corporate bankers of London. And trying to avoid walking in to the lamp-posts of our musical history.


:rofl:

Robert

---

Yes, that was before they were transfered to Vienna.

Last I heard all nations were in favour of 'free' trade, at a price, of course !!!!!

And yes, carrots and potatoes are more important than 'great' composers. I have become a compositor myself.

Regards

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

Easter islands were in the South Pacific last time I looked.

Interesting story, how the natives wellcomed "free trade" in 1722:

They fought each other to death but before they vanished (sometime late 18th cent) they-at least-pulled down all their idols-false prophets(statues erected with great pain to the memory of their ancestors).

How wise of you to insist on growing organic potatoes and carrots (from now on), Robert.

Regards.

---

Yes, Vienna of course, rulers of the seven seas for the past few centuries, great sailors and shipping magnates, famous free traders with a flare for music (excluding the one and only Bach).

Can you recommend a good book on this interesting-and very original-subject?

Regards.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:A...vol_4.djvu/664

GIOVANNINI, a name interesting in musical history solely on account of the part it plays in the discussion concerning the song 'Willst du dein Herz mir schenken,' which for many years was attributed to Sebastian Bach. The song appears in the larger of the two music books of Anna Magdalena Bach, written on two leaves now loose, but evidently once belonging to the volume, in which they occur after p. in. The outer page of the first leaf bears the title ' Aria di Govannini ' (sic) the song itself appearing on the two interior pages. As a copy of the song ' Schlummert ein, ihr matten Augen ' is written on the outer page of the second leaf, it has been considered that the contents of these pages were contemporary with the rest of the book, and Zelter, into whose hands the volume came from C. P. E. Bach, hazarded the conjecture that the song was by Bach himself, that the Italian name was the equivalent of the composer's first name, and that the copy was made partly by Anna Magdalena herself. Zelter's theory became fixed in the public mind as a certainty, since a play by Ernst Leistner and a novel by A. E. Brach- vogel made the composition of the song an incident in the love-story of Bach ; and even at the present day the question can hardly be taken as settled. Forkel refused from the first to believe in its authenticity, judging it from internal evidence, but Dr. W. Rust has adopted Zelter's theory, and has even gone so far as to assert that some of the bass notes are in the composer's autograph. (Bach-Gesellschaft, vol. xx. i. p. 15.) More recently, however, strong evidence has been brought which may be taken as proving the song to be the composition of an actual Giovannini, whose name appears in Ger- ber's Lexicon as that of an Italian violinist and composer who lived chiefly in Berlin from 1740 until his death in 1782. In the same writer's 'Neues Lexicon' (1812-1814) the additional in- formation is given that about 1745 he went to London, and produced, under the pseudonym of the Count of St. Germaine, a pasticcio entitled 'L'Incostanza delusa' in which the airs were much admired. He also published some violin solos under the same name. Dr. Spitta, in his excellent resume* of the question (J. S. Bach, vol. iii. p. 661, etc., English edition), tells us further that songs by Giovannini are included in Graefe's Odensammlung (1741 and 1743) two of which were since published in Lindner's 'Geschichte des deutschen Liedes,' etc. (1871). These are said to show a strong resemblance to the style of Willst du dein Herz mir schenken,' and there seems no longer any reasonable doubt that this Giovannini is the real composer. ^ The external evidence quite admits the possibility of this, as the book may very probably have come into other hands after the death of Anna Magdalena Bach, and so competent a critic as Dr. Spitta sees no reason to endorse Dr. Bust's opinion that some of the notes are in Bach's handwriting; while from internal evidence it might well be thought that no musician who had even a slight acquaintance with Bach's work could ever suspect it to be by him

How true!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRnA8VaFzD8

Yanni,

If you had bothered to check you would know songs by various composers are named in the two music books of Anna Magdelena Bach. There is no secret about this. And never has been. Others are not named. These books contain various vocal works that are acknowledged to be by various composers and also songs by her husband. Is this difficult ?

In the meantime and purely as a musical 'divertimento' - :cheers2: with some expertise in the invention department -

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=SGNx...eature=related

Alone could see the phantom in the skies

(Al Aaraaf, EAPoe)

Your matten augen don't see "no secret about it" because they refuse to read the contents of my quote on "Gioavannini" from Wikisource which (contents) clearly leave the subject (Anna Magdalena's mysterious liaison with "a" count of Saint Germaine +new "missing Koch leaves"*) open for all kinds of interpretations:

...a play by Ernst Leistner and a novel by A. E. Brachvogel made the composition of the song an incident in the lovestory of Bach ; and even at the present day the question can hardly be taken as settled. Forkel refused from the first to believe in its authenticity...

Dr. Spitta sees no reason to endorse Dr. Bust's opinion that some of the notes are in Bach's handwriting; while from internal evidence it might well be thought that no musician who had even a slight acquaintance with Bach's work could ever suspect it to be by him



But your divertimento distracted me from trying to learn more about Vienna's leading role in 18th century shipping and free trade history.

Any good book on the subject?

Thanks.

*Only briefly mentioned in "The puzzle of Beethoven's Kochs" on missing music autographs from Beethoven's opus as well.

Having just included relevant data in my timeline, I just wish to add that the assumption made previously on Bach and Handel being one and the same person is an assumption no more.

JS Bach did not die in Germany, he just returned to London as Handel to die later (1758 or 1759) and be burried in Westminster Abbey (as per Wikipedia). The question 'what was "their" actual identity?' is of great interest.

Here is a short timeline abstract:

Durazzo Marchese*(detto Conte) Giacomo Pier Francesco, Patrizio Genovese, Ministro Residente della Repubblica di Genova a Vienna dal 21-IX-1749 (data di presentazione delle Credenziali) al maggio del 1752,

Pierre-Michel Hennin*obtint le 18 novembre1749 de M. de Puisieulx, ministre des Affaires étrangères, la...(Le Parlement - 1748)

November 1749 Condillac*in Grenoble learns of his appointment to the Berlin Academy of sciences from....Jean D'Alembert: Science and the Enlightenment Από τον/την Thomas L. Hankins....before the official letter of Maupertuis reached him

Rousseau*apporte son soutien à Diderot, emprisonné à la suite de la Lettre sur les aveugles à l’usage de ceux qui voient en 1749.

Maupertuis, the French President of the Academy of Berlin, may have been influential in securing Condillac’s election to the Academy in 1749. Condillac wrote to him on Christmas Day 1749 to express his pleasure and gratitude at being elected to that body. Their correspondence corrects the mistaken later date of Condillac’s election given by Puchesse.6In the letter Condillac said that it was a friend, M. d’Alembert, who had given him the news.

1750

Cocchi La Gismonda (spr.1750 Napoli F)

Giacomo Durazzo* Spouse: Weissen Wolf Ernestine Aloisia Ungnad Von Family Marriage: 17 MAR 1750 Wien, Wien, Austria

In the same year (1750) in which Turgot traced an outline of historical Progress at the Sorbonne, Rousseau*laid before the Academy of Dijon a theory of historical Regress. This Academy had offered a prize for the best essay on the question whether the revival of sciences and arts had contributed to the improvement of morals. The prize was awarded to Rousseau.

Voltaire He left Paris June 15th, and reached, July 10th, Sans-Souci, near Potsdam, the country place of the king, seventeen miles from Berlin. (1750-1753 Voltaire is a guest of Frederic)

JSBach dies 28th July 1750

In August 1750, on a journey back from Germany to London, Handel was seriously injured in a carriage accident between The Hague and Haarlem in the Netherlands.[5]:[63] He died some eight years later in 1759 in London, at the age of 74, with his last attended performance being his own Messiah.More than three thousand mourners attended his funeral, which was given full state honours, and he was buried in Westminster Abbey.[39]:[60]Handel never married, and kept his personal life private. He left a sizable estate at his death, worth £20,000, the bulk of which he bequeathed to a niece in Germany, with additional gifts to his other relations, servants, friends and favourite charities

August 25th, 1750 Collini* is in Berlin with the Barberinas and Voltaire

In two more letters in 1750 to Maupertuis, Condillac refers to d’Alembert, saying in a postscript to that of 12 August from Segrez, “We shall just make one parcel of our letters, M. d’Alembert and I: we are at the home of Monsieur the Marquis d’Argenson where one meets the best society” (Condillac, Oeuvres de Condillac, 2:535). D’Alembert was known to all as the wittiest of guests, so those later writers who have wished to show Condillac as dry, retiring and boring have to explain away their pleasure in each other’s company. Marmontel, speaking of Mme Geoffrin’s salon wrote, “Of that gathering, the gayest, most animated man, the most amusing in his gaiety, was d’Alembert. . . he made one forget in him the philosopher and scholar, to see only the lovable individual” (Marmontel, Mémoires, 1:300).

September 15th, 1750, Gluck*married Maria Anna Pergin

Gluck* Ezio (carn.1750 Praha)

Gioac.Cocchi Siroe (carn.1750 Venezia SGG) , La mascherata (27.12.1750 Venezia SC)

*Aliases of Gioachino Cocchi aka Le comte de Saint Germain.

Yanni,

Obsurantism has its followers. For myself, I much prefer to know (as I do) that Bach's music, that of Handel, and that of Gluck, are completely different. But why let simple facts such as these get in the way of a good story ?

Regards

Robert

Still waiting for your input on "Vienna, master of the Seven Seas" Robert.

In the meantime, I am certain you'll never again attribute the Brandenburg concertos to Handel (as you did previously in this thread) and can but express the hope you'll first exchange "Gluck" with more concrete facts on the subject (on Handel and Bach being the same man) and then ONLY accompany your new answer with irony if you must.

A matter of aesthetics, you see.

To refresh your history:

http://www.online-literature.com/for...t=35779&page=2

and

http://www.uncg.edu/gar/courses/lixl...cktheGreat.htm

Now tell me all you know about Handel's relations to Antonio Cocchi and -another 18th century puzzle-Telemann and their compositions.

Regards

Gentlemen,

I just wanted to take a moment to thank you for getting the pot stirred up again. I truly missed the good natured bantering (it is good natured...right?).
Looks like I have some catching up to do!

best regards,

Gilliatt

Good natured, certainly Gilliat... 'xcept for the devil in the details we call "science"!

Hi there Gilliat,

Yes, it's good natured. Yanni wants us to believe J.S. Bach didn't die in 1750 but became another composer. This neatly diverts us from the facts surrounding G.F. Handel's close association with half a dozen cardinals of the Roman Church in Rome and Venice (quite an achievement for a Lutheran from Germany in the early 18th century, you may agree) and Handel's close association with the occultist fraternities who polluted the entire music industry at the time of the so-called 'Enlightenment'. Since the manufacture of 'great' composers is not a new thing but is, in fact, the general rule in the 18th century. In the case of Handel fully supported by the aristocrats of the British Empire, themselves closely allied with Rome.

And, in the meantime -some Vitamin C (lol)

Regards


http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=ZFKI...eature=related

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilliatt Gurgle

Gentlemen,

I just wanted to take a moment to thank you for getting the pot stirred up again. I truly missed the good natured bantering (it is good natured...right?).
Looks like I have some catching up to do!

best regards,

Gilliatt

---

It gladdens my heart to see that yanni and Musicology have found each other. It just goes to show that there's someone out there for everyone. Honestly - I'm filling up.

Burkas are apparently an essential face saving accessory not just in the muslim world.

...plus a blindfold is strongly suggested!

Christian Bach, on the other hand, is full of the new

idea. His life itself may well claim attention. It is

sufficiently remarkable that he almost alone of the great

Bach family which had for generations played a part

in the development of music in Germany, and was to

play such a part there for many years to come, broke

the traditions of his fathers, went to Italy for eight

years, even became a Catholic, and finally decided to

pass the last twenty years of his life in London. Though

the many stories of his extravagances and dissipations

have been most unrighteously exaggerated, he was none

the less of a gay, lighthearted and pleasure-loving na-

ture which is in sharp contrast to the graver and more

pious dispositions of his ancestors.

"The art of music : a comprehensive library of information for music lovers and musicians"

MarkBastable,

For an awful moment I was convinced you were falling head over heels in love with your own reflected lipstick. But your heart is elsewhere.

Here it is !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlQGJyILPsw

and here -

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=IHai...eature=related



Regards

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkBastable

It gladdens my heart to see that yanni and Musicology have found each other. It just goes to show that there's someone out there for everyone. Honestly - I'm filling up.

---

Here is a Bach (and Handel) favorite for all miserere nostri.

By Palestrina:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z3M1...eature=related

By Gr.Allegri

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn39RzlhSao

WIKIquote:

According to the popular story (backed up by family letters), the fourteen-year-old Mozart was visiting Rome, when he first heard the piece during the Wednesday service. Later that day, he wrote it down entirely from memory, returning to the Chapel that Friday to make minor corrections. Some time during his travels, he met the British historian Dr Charles Burney, who obtained the piece from him and took it to London, where it was published in 1771. Once the piece was published, the ban was lifted; Mozart was summoned to Rome by the Pope, only instead of excommunicating the boy, the Pope showered praises on him for his feat of musical genius[citation needed]. The work was also transcribed by Felix Mendelssohn in 1831 and Franz Liszt, and various other 18th and 19th century sources survive. Since the lifting of the ban, Allegri's Miserere has become one of the most popular a cappella choral works now performed[who?].

JS Bach of course, earlier on, "borrowed" from Palestrina (JS's Mass in B minor).

One can but assume he obtained the work thru his "son", "Johann Christian Bach" aka "Phantom of the opera".

Yanni,

As a consumer of textbooks on musical history have you ever wondered why virtually every area of human activity can be and obviously has been corrupted (areas such as politics, banking, commerce, the mass media, history books etc) but not ever the 'history of music' ? Does it ever occur to you that what you have been reading/consuming in matters of musical history has been 'managed' from the start ? Grossly managed. Wholesale ? And if not, why ?

The legend of Mozart copying down from memory a mass in Rome is a classic example. It is sheer nonsense. Of course it is. It's more than nonsense. It's a pack of lies. The truth is a score of the Allegri Miserere was available to the Mozarts in Vienna and elsewhere long before they ever got to Rome. The truth is Mozart and his father heard the work not once, but twice, right there in Rome. The truth is the manuscript scribbled down by Mozart was a publicity stunt that has disappeared. Nobody has ever studied it. The truth is this 'Mozart' version has never been seen nor once catalogued in all the works of 'Mozart' over the past 200 years, even as an arrangement. Which is strange if that achievement really plays such a part in his reputation, don't you agree ? The truth is the truth is not required in the Mozart industry. The truth is Charles Burney was a fraternity member in close contact with other fraternity members in Germany. For years. A stooge, in fact, of the British Empire. Whose elites were loyal to Rome. Whose daughter (and himself) were sponsored and even employed by the British elite families. The truth is Charles Burney was a notorious faker and liar. The version of the Allegri Miserere published in London in 1771 is very, very different from the version we know today. And it was definitely NOT made by Mozart either. Nor has Mozart ever been associated with it. The truth is you do not know your subject. Charles Burney in Italy was shadowing the Mozart family on their tour of Italy. (As I will clearly show in the 'Manufacture of Mozart'). Burney was part of the same stooge group that included Venetian occultist G. Ortes and many members of the elites of the Holy Roman Empire (and those of feudal England) directly involved in manufacturing one of the great lies of western culture. The legendary exploits of W.A. Mozart.

As for Felix Mendelssohn, you should realise that amongst his early 'helpers' was none other than Wolfgang von Goethe. An Illuminati member. And that Mendelssohn's own family were related to the Arnsteins of Vienna, at whose home Mozart first stayed on his arrival in Vienna in the 1780's. Just a coincidence, of course. In point of fact early works by Felix Mendelssohn include several that are NOT by Mendelssohn. Take, for example, the early Clarinet Sonata of the same 'Mendelssohn'. It has an entire movement stolen from a sonata by the virtually unknown Cartellieri. And how was that possible ? Well, Goethe was a close friend of Cartellieri's employer in Bohemia. And visited there several times. Cartellieri was involved after Mozart's death in preparing 'Mozart' operas for their eventual first publication. And Cartellieri remains, today, virtually unknown. As do countless others. Goethe was also a great supporter of the Mozart myth, as you may know.

As for JC Bach, he too was supported by the British Empire. And was from the time he first became associated with Hamburg. (A base for the East India Company in Germany, by the way). Britain at that time funding areas of Germany secretly. Including Bonn. And Hanover. Signor Cocchi would confirm this to you.

You should ask G.F. Handel about the musical miracles that are associated with Hamburg. Handel was recruited for the service of the same British Empire while there in Hamburg. That's where he was invited to Italy. And the house of Hanover, as you may know, became the kings of Britain in the early 18th century with George 1st. Just a coincidence, of course. The Guelph movement were very pleased with this German 'genius' and he and his music had already received the full approval and great assistance of many cardinals in Rome and Venice. (Together with the music of various Italian comoposers). As you know. Just a coincidence of course. The fact the first 7 operas of 'Handel' are not actually by G.F. Handel is of course mere coincidence. Thus the illusion of a 'protestant' king of England was highly successful. The public believed it. The Hanoverian Guelphs now ruled. A brilliant public relations scam. Rome was very happy with this. A Rome itself infested with Venetian occultism.

As for the House of Hanover, it would never become involved in manufacturing the careers of 'great' composers. Would it ? In the case of Mozart the German text found on the 'autograph' of Le Nozze di Figaro (and made much later) was supplied by none other than Adolph Franz Friedrich Ludwig Knigge ( 1752 – 1796), a man whose curious life included his direct association with the early Bavarian Illuminati and (far less known) the fact he was a civil servant in Bavaria whose family had been financially assisted by the British monarchy. Documents at the British Library show this clearly. Knigge coming from Hanover himself and associated with Hanover until he died. Very British stuff !

Below is a picture of the same Knigge in his Hanoverian uniform. Just a coincidence, of course.

Really, Yanni, the manufacture of 'great' composers is not an opinion but a plain fact. Hidden under the varnish of the music industry.

Nothing, Yanni, is quite what it seems in the 'history of music'. Well, almost -

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=eJDZ...eature=related


Regards

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

Here is a Bach (and Handel) favorite for all miserere nostri.

By Palestrina:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z3M1...eature=related

By Gr.Allegri

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn39RzlhSao

WIKIquote:

According to the popular story (backed up by family letters), the fourteen-year-old Mozart was visiting Rome, when he first heard the piece during the Wednesday service. Later that day, he wrote it down entirely from memory, returning to the Chapel that Friday to make minor corrections. Some time during his travels, he met the British historian Dr Charles Burney, who obtained the piece from him and took it to London, where it was published in 1771. Once the piece was published, the ban was lifted; Mozart was summoned to Rome by the Pope, only instead of excommunicating the boy, the Pope showered praises on him for his feat of musical genius[citation needed]. The work was also transcribed by Felix Mendelssohn in 1831 and Franz Liszt, and various other 18th and 19th century sources survive. Since the lifting of the ban, Allegri's Miserere has become one of the most popular a cappella choral works now performed[who?].

JS Bach of course, earlier on, "borrowed" from Palestrina (JS's Mass in B minor).

One can but assume he obtained the work thru his "son", "Johann Christian Bach" aka "Phantom of the opera".

---

Telling me the obvious won't help in finding the solution to Handel/Bach real identity and links to the Kochs (in control of "things" then) who invented them to serve,as undercover agents and diplomats,their first Hanoverian Majesties, Kings George I&II.

Your "Krieger" (thread below) owes his existence to Johann Matheson (he wrote Krieger's basic biography, yet Matheson's own biography and music compositions and works is surpisingly "empty" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Mattheson and so -out of reach-is WIMA and its late founder, a Werner Icking, whose antique music archive is now in Texas(!) under a Christian Mondrup).

Matheson was a diplomat,composed seven or eight operas, wrote a music lexicon or two, left Hamburg at the same time as Handel (1722) after their alleged duel (hah-hah), looks like Handel, but is still offlimits.

Now tell me what you know about Handel's links to Antonio Cocchi and Georg Philipp Telemann who influenced, musically, JSBach's alleged sons much more than their shadowy father.

Telemann, the alleged "almost" Thomaskantor in Leipzig, 1722* (Bach's post), the one who later "almost" died shortly after Handel "almost" did(their 1754 correspondence- two letters only), who developed a new music notation method,just like-and simultaneously with -JJRousseau:

Neues musicalisches System (1742/3, published 1752).

In 1742 Rousseau moved definitively northward to Paris, carrying with him a new system of musical notation, a comedy, an opera, and a collection of poems.

Telemann, who was eversince "gardening" for the better part of his otherwise very productive life in diplomacy, just like Rousseau, his son.

Tele-man, who came from faraway!

Enjoy.

*Antonio Cocchi followed to London as his personal physician, 1722 and 1726, Lord Théophile Hastings, where he met Isaac Newton with who he corresponded later on
http://www.vegetarisme.fr/Articles/i...?p=Cocchi.html

Yanni,

One of the more remarkable 'coincidences' of musical history - you might care to examine the list of the members of the short-lived 'Korrespondierenden Sozietät der Musicalischen Wissenschaften' (Corresponding Society of the Musical Sciences) actually founded by young Mizler (actually managed by the Lucchesini clan and by others in 1738). (Lucchesinis being of course ecclesiastical elites in Rome and Marquis in Lucca before that). And why not consider the role of Leipzig University in the musical 'counter-reformation' and the many career problems Bach had because of them ? The chronological list of that Society's members over its less than 20 years including -

1738: G. de Lucchesini; Lorenz Christoph Mizler (permanent secretary); G.H. Bümler
1739: C.G. Schröter, Heinrich Bokemeyer, Georg Philipp Telemann (1681-1767), Gottfried Heinrich Stölzel (1690-1749)
1742: G.F. Lingke
1743: M. Spiess, G. Venzky
1745: Georg Frideric Handel (1685-1759), U. Weiss
1746: C.H. Graun
1747: J.S. Bach (1685-1750), Georg Andreas Sorge (1703-1778), Carl Heinrich Graun 1703/4-1759), J.P. Kunzen
1748: Johann Caspar Ferdinand Fischer (c1670-1746)
1751: J.C. Winter
1752: J.G. Kaltenbeck
1755: Leopold Mozart (1719-1787) (was invited to become its 20th member, but declined the invitation) - LOL !

Bach had refused association with Mizler's idea of that society for years. But by the late 1740's J.S. Bach had musical sons who faced the real possibility they would not find employment in their own careers. Music of J.S. Bach's kind was under great criticism, even in Leipzig. As you will know from a series of published complaints against it. The Lutheran Church found itself to be as divided in different ways as Rome itself. This was not good for the musical prospects of his sons. The natural thing for them to do was to get closer to the emerging cultural power of the British Empire. In Germany and England. Real as it was. And that's exactly what they did. The lure of money and popularity did the rest. Certainly with CPE Bach and JC Bach. You may also consider musical journalists with whom Leopold Mozart was associated, even before the time of Mozart's birth (in 1756).

Certainly, Telemann was in the same group as all the rest. He and his music was well known in Paris and he was far, far more extrovert with promoting his music than J.S. Bach. Telemann was a very different kind of man than Bach.

Rome wanted to snuff out the influence of Bach. So they showered all kinds of prizes on his sons. But they effectively shut down his music after his death, a few years later.

As far as Handel goes, it's not Bach who solves that. (He tried several times to meet Handel, as you know). Handel's career in Germany was artificially favoured from the start. Lawyers tend to do that. He went from obscurity to international fame with the full patronage of Rome (later, that of the British Empire aristocrats - themselves in league with Rome). The latest musical Manchurian Candidate would be invented in Hamburg, feted in Rome, and protected from the time of his arrival in England by British aristocats. With the input of various fine and today almost unknown Italian composers. Many of them based in London themselves.

I assure you members of the Cocchi were in close association with Handel and the ecclesiastical elites during his time in Italy. Although I don't immediately have the evidence to hand I will find it. Cocchis were of course fraternal managers of this nonsense. Even as recently as G. Cocchi and the boy Mozart in London as we've already said. It remains my view that this fraternity stuff hijacked the history of music. And that so much of music and musical achievement of the 18th century is pure fiction - manufactured like most of the rest. The truth obscured under the rubble on which the icons were built.

Regards


http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=8cN9...%20brandenburg

Consider works such as S. Taylor's 'The Huge Indebtedness of G.F. Handel to the works of other Composers' (Cambridge, 1906)

And what of this ? 3 days before his 1702 birthday G.F. Handel matriculated as a law student of the University of Halle. In that same year following his father's wishes, Handel enrolled to study civil law at the University of Halle but is also said to have been appointment in some capacity as an organist at the local Protestant cathedral. After less than a year Handel seems to have been very unsatisfied with organ playing since in 1703, he somehow moved to Hamburg, accepting a position as a violinist and harpsichordist in the opera house of the city. His teacher on both instruments is unknown. In any event he there met characters such as none other than Johann Mattheson, Christoph Graupner, and Reinhard Keiser and two operas, 'Almira' and 'Nero' were produced in 1705 over which Handel's authorship has never been settled. Some two years after this he somehow met the Italian Gian Gastone de Medici and is credited with having produced another two operas, 'Daphne' and 'Florindo' in 1708 though it remains strangely unclear if Handel even directed these performances himself in the Oper am Gansemarkt.

In 1706 Handel travelled for the first time to Italy at the invitation the same Gian Gastone de' Medici, whom he had met as long ago as 1703/1704 in Hamburg. Ferdinando, who had succeeded in making Florence the musical capital of Italy, was attracting the leading talents of his day and had a keen interest in opera. There Handel met librettist Antonio Salvi, with whom he would collaborate. Handel left for Rome and, as opera was temporarily banned there he composed sacred music for the Roman Catholic Clergy. Including the famous Dixit Dominus (1707) He is also credited with composing many cantatas in pastoral style for musical gatherings in the palace of no less than 3 Roman Cardinals Pietro Ottoboni, Benedetto Pamphili and Carlo Colonna. Two oratorios, 'La Resurrezione' and 'Il Trionfo del Tempo' are said to have been produced in a private setting for Ruspoli and Ottoboni in 1709 and 1710, respectively. Rodrigo, his first immature, but all-Italian opera, had been produced in the Cocomero theatre in Florence in 1707. 'Agrippina' was first produced in 1709 at Teatro San Giovanni Grisostomo, the prettiest theatre at Venice, owned by the Grimani's. That opera, with a libretto by another Roman Catholic cardinal (Vincenzo Grimani) ran for an unprecedented 27 performances. It showed remarkable maturity and certainly established Handel's reputation as a composer of opera. The audience, thunderstruck with the grandeur and sublimity of his style applauded for Il caro Sassone. He also visited London for the first time in 1710.

In the middle of June 1710 G.F. Handel next entered the service of the Elector of Hanover in Germany and was for the next 2 ½ years employed there as Kapellmeister. An event that was itself strange. But not as strange as his protracted absences from Hanover during most of this employment period. During which time he was for much of the time in Venice, Rome and London. Indeed, even his surviving payment records of Hanover are puzzling.

‘’Kapellmeister - George Friedrich Hendell - Kapellmeister

‘Mid-Summer 1710-Mid-Summer 1711’ - George Friedrich Hendell, Kapellmeister - 1000 Thalers

Mid-Summer 1711-Mid Summer 1712 - 1000 Thaler less deduction of 83 Thaler 12 Groschen

Midsummer 1712 - 500 Thaler for six months salary - finally paid in arrears in 1715

In London 1711 ‘Rinaldo’. In London again 1712. 1717 Employed by the Duke of Chandos

What is strange about this ? Well, Handel’s first appearance in London occurred within the time of his first year’s Hanover salary, from which no deductions were made. Nor was he even able to be in Hanover to collect his own salary in the middle of 1712.

In fact the circumstances surrounding Handel’s appointment as Kapellmeister at Hanover have always been described by those who have examined the subject to be ‘obscure’. Sources such as Chrysander only add to the strangeness by stating that both the existing Kapellmeister of Hanover, Steffani and Baron Kielmansegg were visiting Venice in early 1710 at the very same time as Handel. And, according to Kielmansegg’s family chronicles (published for the first time in the 20th century) Handel was offered the Hanover post of Kapellmeister while visiting Venice (‘Familien Chronik’ - Vienna 1910, P. 447).

After Handel’s return to Germany his speedy and ready acceptance as a music composing visitor at the musical court of Queen Anne in London (this coming several years before the accession of George 1st from Hanover) is again remarkable. Furthermore, his employment in Germany ended in June 1713. Almost a year and a half before the coronation of George as King of England.

And, as for music attributed to him during those years Handel was already being credited with having written music for the English court as early as 6th February 1711. For example, on the occasion of Queen Anne’s Birthday celebration. A report of that event states that -

‘The Queen’s birthday was observed with great solemnity, the court was extremely numerous and magnificent. The officers of state, foreign ministers, nobility and gentry, and particularly ladies, vying with each other as to who would most grace the occasion. Between one and two in the afternoon was performed a fine consort, being a dialogue in Italian, in Her Majesties praise, being set to music by the famous Mr Hendel, a Retainer at the court of Hanover in the post of Director of His Highness Chapel, and sung by Cavaliero Nicolini Grimaldi, and the other celebrated voices of the Italian opera, with which Her Majesty was extremely pleased’.

//

The attribution of music performed for a state ceremony in honour of the English queen by German composer from Hanover ( though sung in Italian) is also unusual in several senses. It marked a notable departure from well established convention. Records in London show in the years prior to 1711 show the music supplied for the birth celebrations of monarchs was only by English composers and sung to English texts provided by the English court Poet Laureate. And that’s not all. For the next 4 years (1711-15) this new Italianate arrangement continued - i.e. during the last 3 years of Queen Anne - and during the 1st year of George 1st’s own reign. (1715). There are no records of English commissions for musical odes and other music to be supplied to the English court by the court Poet Laureate during those years nor any for texts to be set by the resident London Master of the Queen’s Musik. Further mystifying Handel’s situation was the premiere of a 'Te Deum' that is traditionally attributed to him which was performed at St Paul’s Cathedral in London on 7th July 1713 - this only privately ‘attributed’ to Handel in a letter from Thomas Grote written to Hanover on 13th January that year (and still attributed to Handel today) although its premiere in London (widely reported in newspapers and journals of the time) say nothing of him being its composer. (They do, however, refer to Handel having been present at its rehearsals).

Again, one example from dozens -

Erba, Dionigi (d. Milan 1730). Italian composer. Related to the old noble Erba family originating at Como and thus to his contemporary, Cardinal Benedetto Erba Odescalchi, Archbishop of Milan. Eitner maintained they were brothers. From 1692 he was maestro di cappella of S Francesco, Milan, and from 1697 of S Maria presso S Celso there. The anthology in which his Cor triumpha exulta, respira appears also contains works by the Milanese composers Alessandro Besozzi (i), G.B. Brevi and Francesco Ballarotti, who collaborated on operas with Erba. His name is remembered mainly because of a Magnificat for two choirs, oboe, strings and organ that was once mistakenly attributed (by Robinson) to Handel. It is, however, by Erba, though G.F. Handel did make a copy of it and borrowed copiously from it in his oratorio 'Israel in Egypt', in, for instance, the double chorus ‘The depths have covered them’.

etc.

JSBach and GFHandel were one and the same person, Robert (and the name change between 1745-1747, per you Mizler members list, explained thru political events-failed Stuart coup in Scotland: He could not very well appear as "Handel" again so he used "Bach").

Try proving otherwise.

I suggest you focus on 1750-51 and, still more, on the exact date Handel/Bach had "their" left eyes operated upon by charlatan Taylor (following Bach's "death" and Handel's simultaneous accident).

quote from my timeline:

Hδndel’s notice in the score of ‘Jephta’: ‘Biss hierher komen den 13. Febr. 1751 verhindert worden wegen relaxation des gesichts meines linken auges’ (Got as far as this on Wednesday 13th February 1751, unable to go on owing to weakening of the sight in my left eye). He went to Cheltenham again until June 1751 (as reported inthe General Advertiser on June 15, 1751) [Deutsch, 1955]. After his return,Händel consulted Samuel Sharp, surgeon to Guy’s hospital, to undergo eye surgery. Sharp diagnosed ‘gutta serena’ (drop serene) which corresponds to the modern term of amaurosis, and which was then diagnosed in cases of ‘an abolition of the sight without any apparent cause or fault in the eyes’.

Of note: http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB...artists_03.pdf mentions no eye problems of Bach between 1745-and the above first symptom following his accident in continental Europe.

Regards.

Yanni,

The onus is on you to provide evidence of this. Not on anyone else. The music attributed to G.F. Handel is completely different from that of the music attributed to J.S. Bach. A child could see this. They were two different people.

As for the eyesight operation conducted on Bach and Handel by the same person (Taylor) this is a subject I have researched in detail. Taylor's association with the occultists of England (its ruling elites, Rome) and those of Rome/Venice being indisputable. In fact, Taylor was known as 'Cavaliere' Taylor and was an occulist to the papacy. If Bach and Handel were the same person why do both become members of Mizler's music society years apart ? No, it's nonsense, and you have to provide evidence instead of facts which clearly show the opposite. The operations to which you refer were NOT 'simultaneous'. They were years apart.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

JSBach and GFHandel were one and the same person, Robert (and the name change between 1745-1747 explained thru political events-Stuart rebellion in Scotland).

Try proving otherwise.

I suggest you focus on 1750-51 and, still more, on the exact date Handel/Bach had "their" left eyes operated upon by charlatan Taylor (following Bach's "death" and Handel's simultaneous accident).

---

28th July 1750 : J. S. Bach (65) dies in Leipzig soon after an unsuccessful eye operation by Rome approved oculist, John Taylor.

3rd November 1752 : G.F. Handel has eye operation ("couching" -- a procedure to treat cataracts) by William Bromfield, Surgeon to the Princess of Wales, to restore his sight. The operation is a short-term success.

'Simultaneous' ? Different countries and completely different dates. Different surgeons.

:confused5:

And Yanni will now explain the following if Bach and Handel were the same person -


July 28, 1750
Leipzig
Death of J.S. Bach dies in Leipzig

July 31, 1750
Leipzig
Burial at Johanniskirche, Leipzig.

Aug 7, 1750
Leipzig
Election of Johann Gottlob Harrer as replacement for J.S. Bach at the Thomaskantor (other applicants for his position including C.P.E. Bach, A.F. Graun, J.L. Krebs, J.G. Görner. And J. Trier)

Oct 2, 1750
Leipzig
Installation of Johann Gottlob Harrer as Thomaskantor in replacement to the documented death of J.S. Bach.

In Handel's case his eye operations were apparently not successful, or at least not permanently. On August 17, 1752, (2 years after Bach's death) the General Advertiser noted, "We hear that George Frederick Handel, Esq; the celebrated Composer of Musick was siezed [sic] a few Day's ago with a Paralytic Disorder in his Head, which has deprived him of Sight." The same journal informs us on November 4th Handel had again been "couched" by William Bromfield (1713-1792). Again the improvement was at best transient. In the summer of 1758, (now 8 years after Bach's death !) G.F. Handel was "couched" for a third time, again unsuccessfully. The surgeon this time was the well-known, self-promoting quack, John Taylor.

Thus, fully 8 years after Bach's death G.F. Handel was still undergoing eye surgery (his 3rd operation).

A small puzzle for Yanni !

No puzzle at all, Robert:

Handel, as Bach, was succesfully operated by Taylor in 1750 for the first time and that's why he trusted Taylor to operate on him again in 1758.

If the two were different persons (who kept themselves well informed of eachother, as competitors), Handel would have known Bach's death because of eye surgery complications and would not have trusted Taylor.

See: http://archopht.ama-assn.org/cgi/rep...3/10/1427.pdf: Vol. 123 No. 10, October 2005, The Eyes of Johann Sebastian Bach , Richard H. C. Zegers, MD

The author is quite suspicious of Bach's alleged "death due to eye surgery complications". After tracing Bach's sole "sources" to CPEBach, WFBach and Forkel (he should also include "our" Koch imo)- and you and I know how "trustworthy" such sources are, don't we?- he concludes his article as follows:

Bach was buried anonymously, as was Mozart, 3 days after his death, in a grave without any obvious stone or mark, near the St Johannes Kirche in Leipzig. When the church was rebuilt in 1894, the alleged mortal remains of Bach were reburied in the church itself. After this church was heavily bombed during World War II, the alleged remains were moved to the St Thomas Kirche in Leipzig, where they still remain.
One can only speculate about the fate of this great composer. The only inarguable fact is the body of music Bach left us , sounding still as fresh today as it did the day he put it on paper. Whatever eye diseases Bach might have suffered during his life, they never stopped him from creating divine music

But you have still to tell me what you know of Handel's relations to Dr Antonio Cocchi (an eye specialist himself) focusing always on this same year of Handel/Bach's operation, death and resurection, 1750!

Check where Handel purchased his Rembrandt from, February 1750, to then make his will early June, return to Leipsig to die as Bach!

and another one for you:

Do you know of any musicologist who has ever compared similarities between Telemann's and Rousseau's new "music notation method"?

Regards.

And what did Mrs Bach think about this ? All those years in Leipzig ? How about Bach's children. They too are sons of G.F.Handel, right ?

And who was the Kapellmeister of Leipzig during the last 20 years of Handel's life ?

It gets more interesting by the minute !!!

:confused5:

Handel's family life is somehow obscure (and Bach only existed as an alias of Johann Sebastian Koch, remember?).

His friend Weiss looked after Bach's Kappelmeister affairs propably. He too died in 1750-a month after "Bach did"-for real however I am afraid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

And what did Mrs Bach think about this ? All those years in Leipzig ? How about Bach's children. They too are sons of G.F.Handel, right ?

And who was the Kapellmeister of Leipzig during the last 20 years of Handel's life ?

It gets more interesting by the minute !!!

:confused5:

---

1747 - 7th and 8th May - J.S. Bach visits the court of Frederick the Great at Potsdam and gives organ recital in the Heiliggeistkirche there the next day before a huge audience. Composes and publishes (September.) The Musical Offering. Joins Mizler's Society of Musical Sciences, June 1747, for which he composed the Canonic Variations (BWV869).

1747 - April, London - G.F. Handel personally rehearses and premieres 'Judas Maccabeus'. Performed 6 times in London during April and May of that same year.

Question -

Did G.F. Handel own a helicopter ?

???

Handel might have been present only in the April performances to then let conducting to a substitute (Algarotti? Frédéric le nomma au mois d'avril 1747, chambellan et chevalier de l'ordre pour le mérite or perhaps Antonio Cocchi himself-check him out!) .

As young Frederick's spy(?)* relative "evidence" is shaky at best. Bach's meeting with Frederick has been propably put first on record by CPEBach etc.

But do tell me about Cocchi-Telemann-Rousseau!

*Samuel Cocceji by 1747 he was Großkanzler (grand chancellor) of Prussia.

What 'might' happen is that J.S. Bach could be Handel. That 'might' also be true. But there is not a shred of evidence of that either.

1747 is just one example. There are dozens. Who died in 1750 at Leipzig ? Because one thing is sure. The entire population of Leipzig were sure J.S. Bach had died. It was announced in the newspapers. It is recorded that he died and was buried. He is even succeeded by a new Kapellmeister. Is this most likely because the Kapellmeister Bach really died, or because he was G.F. Handel in disguise ?

And you have not told us who was doing the job of Kapellmeister in Leipzig while GF Handel was for years in London.

Did he take a helicopter trip to Leipzig every week for years ?

The answer, Yanni, is simple. JS Bach was JS Bach. And GF Handel was GF Handel. But the careers of both were closely related. One was a famous/international and iconic figure. Feted in Rome, Venice and across Europe. The other was a Kapellmeister whose music was basically suppressed for almost a century. Two very different men whose music is very, very different.

Handel's background I've already given. He is clearly being patronised by powerful elites in Rome and England, in Hamburg, and Hanover. The overwhelming evidence says so.

But if you can provide evidence to support your view, please do it. The two careers are contemporary. They are both (in theory) composers who should have been ignored by the Holy Roman Empire. Only one of them was. The other was, as said, a tool. And that tool was G.F. Handel. The sheer weight of the evidence clearly shows this. It shows nothing else. Unless you have some to provide. It's your theory, not mine. And it's for you to provide evidence, nobody else.

I think you are just plain wrong.

The elites of the time were determined that Handel (and not Bach) should be a celebrity, effectively blocking out Bach from any recognition, even in England and in lands where the Holy Roman Empire did not have open control. And that is exactly what happened. It fits exactly in to what actually happened. Bach was virtually unknown, even in England. For many decades after his own death. How did THAT happen ? It happened because the men then controlling music across Europe (even in England) wanted it that way. The prospect of Bach's music being widely known and appreciated filled them with dread. It was the one thing they could not afford to allow. What mattered was for them to cement the new idea of the Hanoverian rule of England. Of a superficial German/English alliance. What better than to patronise a 'great' German composer in G.F. Handel ? (The details of whose career would not be too closely scrutinised). And that's what happened. Time speaks volumes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=omYQ...eature=related

If all your evidence in support of Handel being not the same man as Bach are the 1747 Judas Maccabeus performances (not allowing for an eventual trip to Potsdam May 7-8), then kindly provide dates of last two performances and evidence of Handel's relative presence.

http://ml.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/pdf_extract/77/4/499 :

Handel’s Judas Maccabeus was performed three times till 8th April 1747 and there are advertisements for more, total six, the fourth and subsequent performances being announced as “with additions and a concerto” on April the 7th (footnote 3).

My sympathy in advance.


PS: Can't you read? I have already supplied you with two "Bach" substitutes for his alleged presence, invisible and insignificant as it was, as Thomaskantor in Leipsig: Leopold Weiss who died Oct 1750, and Algarotti. A third and a fourth alternative-as if any are now needed-were his "son" CPEBach, Frederick's "harpsicordist", and GPTelemann (whom you refuse to touch apparently) towering above Handel and Bach "both" at the time. WFMarpurg could have been a fifth candidate: He was Bach's first "creator" afterall.

Yanni,

I cannot entertain your fantasies much longer. Am too busy with other things. You can believe what you like. That's good. But if you wish to convince others you need to provide evidence, not possibilities. It's a failure you should recognise in your approach.

Thanks

Robert

I understand and sympathise still more:

Your last, much advertised, coup de grâce has proven itself to be yet another one of those miserable failures that we have all grown accustomed to by now.

You should have Handel'd the whole thing, starting with Mozart, with more care!

Bye!

As a neutral watching from the sidelines, I have to say that I think that at this stage Musicology is slightly ahead on points, though yanni appears to have landed a couple of punches in places where M is vulnerable. If I were asked right now to take on board one or other of the offered theories, it would be too close to call. They're both well-presented and each has interesting aspects - but neither has yet shown itself to be unarguably the more convincing.

What I'd really like to see is a third party enter the fray - one who can argue for the more conventional view of history that both yanni and Musicology reject.

It is a basic rule of any study that verifiable evidence is first presented in its support. So that it may be taken seriously. Without which we are wasting our time.

This basic requirement is the core, the foundation, of any academic study. Without it we can invent or imagine anything. Which is a nice game but has nothing to do with reality.

Leaving aside possibilities (which can exist without number) we are left with realities.

On what verifiable realities is Handel said to be J.S. Bach ? Care to name some ? None. None at all. It explains why Yanni refuses to tell us who was Kapellmeister at Leipzig when J.S. Bach was there and when G.F. Handel was living in England. That's not a great start, is it ? It's a sort of basic thing to consider, isn't it ? Does this failure of Yanni make his idea credible ? He ignores the fact that J.S. Bach died in 1750 and refuses to accept that his death in Leipzig that year is a documented, plain fact of recorded history. Are you beginning to see a pattern here ? In such a universe one can drift forever without providing actual, verifiable evidence. Such is the price of a fertile imagination based, as anyone can see, on no actual, verifiable evidence. He has got things completely upside down. And it shows. But I have been willing to consider it all the same.

Again, the fact that the music of Handel and the music of J.S. Bach are very, very different is a further case in point. Here too Yanni is completely silent.

Well, I have tried to entertain his idea. As usual. But you see I can't spend too much time on it.

Regards

Quoted from post 127 http://www.online-literature.com/for...t=51451&page=9 :



The Puzzle of JS Bach's Kochs!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(a puzzle in a puzzle, sort of)

Johann Sebastian's early years and musical heritage are still a mystery but the fact is, some bits and pieces of evidence managed to escape the eye and peek of musicology's hawks and, as it now turns out, Johann Sebastian "Bach" was at least as "influenced" by Kochs as Mozart, Beethoven and Goethe were:

His first name was that of his other godfather, Johann Georg Koch, a forester in Eisenach....

Nothing is known for certain about Sebastian early years until 1693...

Bach was indefatigable in copying manuscripts to replace Ahles less adventurous repertory, aided by Johann Martin Schubart, the earliest of his many distinguished pupils, and Johann Sebastian Koch, his choir prefect

1734 wurde Johann Philipp Ostertag, vorher Konrektor am Gymnasium, zum Stadtpfarrer ernannt. Er wurde unterstützt von dem zum Stadtdiakon berufenen in Idstein geborenen Theologen Johann Sebastian Koch, der außerdem am Gymnasium noch einige Stunden Unterricht in der französischen Sprache erteilte.

Ostertag's mentor in "mystagogie" and only reputable biographer however, Wieland, 1802, claims Ostertag was born 1734: de.wikisource.org/.../ADB:Ostertag,_Johann_Philipp

...and as we remember writing not long ago....

...Franziska Koch, a famous singer of her time who drowned her sorrow to sing then (in tune but on and off only) with Wieland and Benda "Romeo and Juliette" and "Alceste", the first german opera seria. Gluck is also frequently mentioned in this book but there is no apparent relation to Mme Koch or Wielands "Alceste" whatsoever....

...and Wieland was in...Zürich in the summer of 1752. After a few months, however, Bodmer felt himself as little in sympathy with Wieland as, two years earlier, he had felt himself with Klopstock, and the friends parted; but Wieland remained in Switzerland until 1760, spending the last year, at Bern where he obtained a position as private tutor. Here he became intimate with Jean-Jacques Rousseau's friend Julie de Bondeli.

IE

There never was a Johann Sebastian "Bach"...

and

...three cheers for the noble science of forestry-musicology!



-The Master Musiciens. Bach. Oxford University Press. Edited by Stanley Sadie.
-Bach, a biography by ES Terry
- http://www.pfarrverein-ekhn.de/web/p...eschichte.html

END of quote

Wieland (aka Rousseau, Gluck, W.C.Koch etc etc) confirms in 1802 that Johann Sebastian Koch, Bach's "choir prefect" and music "source", was alive, french speaking and quite influential in 1734,Leipzig.
www.pfarrverein does not allow anymore access to relative page from which above quote on Ostertag was copied at the time. As however http://www.ostertag-verband.de/g-buch.php reconfirms (further to Wikisource), Wieland is considered a trustworthy source, ie his data on JSKoch are "correct".