Let's Talk About Dante! Inferno Canto 1

Hi all. So, some of you may have followed the events of this thread: http://www.online-literature.com/for...867#post897867 which (as I state in post 89) got me to thinking about forming some sort of discussion of the Divina Commedia. I realized that, though I've done much reading, thinking and writing on Dante, I have never actually had the opportunity to have a formal discussion of the Inferno in a classroom setting as either student or teacher, and I was thinking how fun and interesting it might be to have a conversation about the Commedia with the engaging and intelligent folks of Lit. Net. I'm curious to hear your thoughts and reactions to L'Inferno.

I thought we could just start by looking at Canto 1 and see where that takes us. Depending on our busy schedules, how many have read the Inferno before, and the form of the discussion, we could do anything from discussing one canto per week (bit long term, that plan) to discussing a larger segment at a time.

Anyway, just to get the ball rolling, here's some basic off-the-top-of my head stuff about the first few stanze that I just posted on the thread that got me thinking about this idea. Feel free to use this as a springboard, or bring up your own thoughts about canto one, whatever you want to talk about. I'll look forward to seeing what (if anything!) comes of this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dante

Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita
mi ritrovai per una selva oscura,
che la diritta via era smarrita.
Ahi quanto a dir qual era e cosa dura
esta selva selvaggia e aspra e forte
che nel pensier rinova la paura!
Tant e amara che poco e piu morte;
ma per trattar del ben ch'i' vi trovai,
diro de l'altre cose ch'i' v'ho scorte.

Midway in the journey of our life I found myself in a dark wood, for the straight way was lost. Ah, how hard it is to tell what that wood was, wild, rugged, harsh; the very thought of it renews the fear! It is so bitter that death is hardly more so. But to treat of the good that I found in it, I will tell of the other things I saw there. (Singleton's translation)

---

As ever, the translation of that first line, "nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita" (midway in the journey of our life) doesn't entirely do justice to the power of the original. One clear meaning of that first line is that he is literally writing this as someone midway through his life. It's often remarked that he was about 35 at the time he wrote the Inferno and that, drawing from the biblical authority of psalm 89, which numbers the years of our life as seventy ("Dies annorum nostrorum in ipsis septuaginta anni"), he would thus be in the exact middle of his life according to Medieval and scriptural tradition. However, he does not say the middle of my life, but the middle of our life, thus starting out by placing his journey in a universal context as something that could well apply to all of us. We all will reach the middle of our life. We all may enter into a dark wood.

The line need not only refer to being literally in the middle years of our life, however. An additional interpretation would be that it refers to any point when we are nell mezzo del cammin di nostra, in the middle of our path. That is, he is referring to any time in our lives when we are in the midst of things, traveling along our life's path of work and relationships and every day activities and concerns, and look around to find ourselves lost and confused in the middle of it all. In the next line the translation then says "I found myself in a dark wood", which is accurate but misses some of the nuance of the original. For example, the word for "dark" is "oscura" which evokes, not just the darkness of the wood, but the way it obscures, hides, and the word for "found" is not simply "trovai" but "ritrovai", which connotes not only finding himelf, but re-finding himself, which highlights the suggestion in the line of a reflection inward. In these two opening lines, Dante is describing a space that intrudes upon all of our paths at some time or another. Sometimes it is a short and passing moment when the awareness of your own mortality washes over you and you feel that brief and restless disconnect between your daily activity and something surrounding and permeating that activity that you don't understand. Sometimes it is that space when you lie in bed at some unreal hour of the morning and can feel some strange mixture of a calm detachment from all that makes up our customary sense of reality and an almost palpable and oppressive fear (perhaps like one form of such a moment that Phillip Larkin describes in his quite different poem "Aubade": "I work all day, and get half-drunk at night./ Waking at four to soundless dark, I stare./ In time the curtain-edges will grow light./Till then I see what's really always there:/ Unresting death, a whole day nearer now..."). Sometimes it is a whole period of a person's life, when they find themselves, in the middle of going through the business of living, thrown completely off track and wandering in the obscurity of the realization that the world does not, in fact, provide many answers combined with an awareness of "what's really always there." This is a space of reflection, of not only facing death, but facing that which "tant e amara che poco e piu morte" (is so bitter that death is hardly more so).

It is from this moment of reflection, of fear, of confronting death and what is scarcely better than death, that the Divine Comedy opens up onto all the many things that crowd a person's mind at such times. Part of what we find with him in the pages that follow are reflections on the events that shape our real-life experience: politics, friendships, those we are tied to by love and those we are tied to by hatred. Another part is a looking back to the past outside our own lives. It is no accident that Virgil is his guide through the inferno. A pagan poet who wrote the great ancient Roman epic, The Aeneid hardly is the most logical choice as a moral guide through the Christian conception of hell, but Dante turns to Virgil as the author of book six of the Aeneid--who has already masterfully described the hero Aeneas' confrontation of death and journey through the pagan underworld-- because he sees in him a voice from the past who has already faced this space of reflection and fear. Dante is trying to grapple with the same things through the lens of his own world, his own religious beliefs, his own personal loves and resentments. He places himself, as an ordinary person like the rest of us facing "nostra vita," "our life" in the position of the mythical epic hero, Aeneas, and it we who now confront the space that in Virgil is braved only by the uncommon and the heroic figure. We turn to Dante as he turned to Virgil, to help us open up the complex boundaries between our own world and that "undiscovered country" we sense pressing in around the ragged edges of our world.

This deserves a very large bump.

[Raises hand] Against my better judgment, primarily due to time contraints, but I'll manage--I will join in Petrarch. The debate evoked my sense of neglect, how much the Comedia satisfies metaphysical longing. I have Mandelbaum's Inferno with the vernacular to compare to the translation, and if we actually last long enough to reach the Purgatorio, I downloaded an older Harvard translation, and think I know a site with frames that imitate Mandelbaum's side by side comparison. I will be back after coffee and such!

Glad to see some interest already, and I've gotten a couple of queries concerning what format we're going to use for this. To better determine how we frame this discussion (and because I've never made one before!) I've attached a poll to this thread to determine where everyone is in terms of having read/not read the Inferno before and what the language skills of our group are. Answer only if you want to.

OK, enough fun creating polls. Back to student papers now.

Petrarch! What an amazing idea for a thread! I've busted out my old Mandelbaum to follow along. I do hope our skeptic, Mr. Gaunt, decides to participate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

In the next line the translation then says "I found myself in a dark wood", which is accurate but misses some of the nuance of the original. For example, the word for "dark" is "oscura" which evokes, not just the darkness of the wood, but the way it obscures, hides, and the word for "found" is not simply "trovai" but "ritrovai", which connotes not only finding himelf, but re-finding himself, which highlights the suggestion in the line of a reflection inward.

---

Lovely reading. As you said, these lines set up our expectations that this will not only be a supernatural journey through Hell but also a journey inward of self-discovery. This makes sense because Dante began writing the Divine Comedy in a moment of despair. Let's back up a moment here to give some historical background: Dante was a member of a political party called the White Guelphs, who tried to keep the Pope from wielding too much influence over his native city of Florence. While he was on a mission to Rome to meet with the Pope, Pope Boniface VIII sent in one of his allies, Charles of Valois, who was sympathetically received by the rival political party, the Black Guelphs (who supported the Pope). Once Charles and the Black Guelphs had control over the city, they announced the exile of many prominent White Guelphs, including Dante. So...back to the Commedia. When Dante begins writing it, he is in exile from his beloved hometown and this adds to our understanding of why he is "found himself in a dark wood". And it explains why so much of the Inferno reads like a revenge tale against Pope Boniface VIII.

Quote:

---

ma per trattar del ben ch'i' vi trovai,
diro de l'altre cose ch'i' v'ho scorte.

---

These specific lines where Dante "treats of the good he found in [his bad situation]" shows the optimism Dante has even in the worst of times. He has a tendency to find the good in every bad situation (a trend which we will continue to see). For me, these lines anticipate "il ben de l'intelletto" (the good of the intellect) which is first mentioned in Canto 3. But more discussion on that when we get there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

Sometimes it is that space when you lie in bed at some unreal hour of the morning and can feel some strange mixture of a calm detachment from all that makes up our customary sense of reality and an almost palpable and oppressive fear

---

Agreed. And this surreal opening has led some scholars to interpret the entire Divine Comedy as a dream vision (a genre in which I have a budding interest). Even though the Comedy doesn't begin with the generic opening of the author falling asleep over a book, it does have a surreal sense (esp. when we get to the three beasts) and plenty of supernatural occurrences which mirror a dream sequence.

Finally, for all you poetry buffs out there, notice the rhyme scheme of the Italian. It's in terza rima, where every three lines is a stanza and every other line rhymes. Notice which specific words rhyme and you'll begin to see some of Dante's aesthetic genius. Vita (life) rhymes with smarrita (lost) and oscura (dark/hidden) rhymes with dura (difficult) rhymes with paura (fear).

I have not had time to sit down and gather my thoughts, (and I may go do a brief skim of Virgil as well to refresh / reinforce the Hellenistic paradigm) but please take this as a rough sketch of what I've been dwelling on since yesterday

In addition to what Petrarch and Wilde have already developed,

Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita signifies the advent of Western autonomy in a dramatic break with the Homeric epic tradition, one that Virgil carries forward in the Aeneid, of external actions being fatalistic toward a willed destiny. Though the gods may play poker with the Trojans and the Greeks, the victors are a foregone conclusion, and by extension, so to the founding of Rome. People may suffer and battle and love but to the ancients these are plotted points, but the absorption of Christian theology into the empire, and later Europe, revolutionizes this.

The individual has a choice that is not willed according to pagan design, but through an individual faith towards reunionification with divine love, or the rejection of that; hence Dante was one of the first poets to create an interior individual reality that merges with both Hellenistic rationality and the tradition of courtly love as exemplified by poets like Petrarch. This is what I was attempting to convey to Leland, perhaps unsuccessfully, about the revolutionary aspect of the Commedia. It fuses the Hellenistic tradition and supercedes it by creating, for the first time, the individual will that struggles to form its own destiny.

And now I'll shut up and do some rereading ;)!

Petrarch... I'd be more than thrilled to engaged in a Dante discussion. Nothing like another reason to reread Dante... perhaps one of the translations I haven't gotten around to. I won't be able to participate however until later Sunday. I have a Wedding tomorrow and I plan on getting into my studio to actually get something done on my own art work for once. (12 days left 'til Summer Break!:party:)

Glad to see all this interest in Dante!

Wilde Woman--Thanks for stepping in to give some of the historical background. It certainly is important to remember that this emerged from a devastating real life situation that literally threw Dante off course into exile.

Quote:

---

These specific lines where Dante "treats of the good he found in [his bad situation]" shows the optimism Dante has even in the worst of times. He has a tendency to find the good in every bad situation (a trend which we will continue to see). For me, these lines anticipate "il ben de l'intelletto" (the good of the intellect) which is first mentioned in Canto 3. But more discussion on that when we get there.

---

Yes, you're right about him always looking for the "ben" in everything. I don't know that I had consciously thought of Dante as an optimist before, but I think that's a very good point.

Quote:

---

Agreed. And this surreal opening has led some scholars to interpret the entire Divine Comedy as a dream vision (a genre in which I have a budding interest). Even though the Comedy doesn't begin with the generic opening of the author falling asleep over a book, it does have a surreal sense (esp. when we get to the three beasts) and plenty of supernatural occurrences which mirror a dream sequence.

---

Absolutely. Thinking of the poem as a dream vision is one apt way of thinking about the sort of "space" I was referring to (and what wouldn't I give to see Ingmar Bergman's dream sequence talents applied to the start of the Inferno!). It's definitely a space that is somehow both outside the real world and yet contains pieces--people impressions--from that real world in the way a dream does.

He mentions sleep almost immediately after the opening stanze we've been looking at:

Quote:

---

Io non so ben ridir com' i' v'intrai,
tant'era pien di sonno a quel punto
che la verace via abbandonai."

I cannot rightly say how I entered it [the wood], I was so full of sleep at the moment I left the true way

---

You're right that, though it could be read as a dream vision, it gives none of the conventional framework--the narrator falling asleep over his book, the repeated phrase "I dreampt" or "I saw," or any direct allusion to its being a dream--but this allows for a really wonderful ambiguity. Do we read "pien di sonno" (full of sleep) as a weariness on the part of the traveler who, in his exhaustion, wanders from the right path, or do we read it that he was asleep as he entered into this dream? The line pivots between a suggestion of sleep and weary wakefulness.

In the same passage, he's also walking a fine line between sleep and death. The first 25 lines or so move very quickly through the night in the woods to him being in a position to look back:

Quote:

---

E come quei che con lena affannata,
uscito fuor del pelago a la riva,
si volge a l'acqua perigliosa e guata

cosi l'animo mio, ch'ancor fuggiva,
si volse a retro a rimirar lo passo
che non lascio gia mai persona viva.

And as he who with laboring breath has escaped from the deep to the shore turns to look back on the dangerous waters, so my mind which was still fleeing turned back to gaze upon the pass that never left anyone alive.

---

Thus, at the very start we have the indication that he has cheated death, that he has passed through, as another poet would put it "the undiscovered country from whose bourne/ No traveler returns." Perhaps it is also reminiscent of psalm 23, "yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death" aka vulgate 22, "Nam etsi ambulavero in medio umbræ mortis" Note that the Latin, the version Dante would have been referring to, does not allude to the "valley" of the English translation, but "in the midst of the shadows of death" could still be readily applicable here, and coincides with Dante's opening line as well in some possible resonant ways. (As a side question, do any of you learned types know where the "valley" comes from? Was this purely poetic license on the part of the English translator? Or is it in the Hebrew original and left out of the Latin version? It's so much in our heads, that I wonder where it came from?) Also, to build on Wilde Woman's excellent notes about the use of rhyme, the rhymes "fuggiva" (was)fleeing and

What's wonderful about this, is that in the first 27 lines he gives an account of his accomplishing exactly what he will now spend the next several hundred lines going through. He has passed through the shades from which no one ever returns to life. Spenser (yes, I'm finishing up a chapter on Spenser right now, so people are just going to have to tolerate my FQ references) uses a similar move at the start of the Faerie Queene when he has his Redcrosse knight defeat the monster Error at the very opening of book one before he goes on to spend the rest of the book doing nothing but struggling with error. A question that just occurred to me out of this: is this sort of move, of setting up a quick and easy apparent victory over the thing that will be the main struggle of the work, something that in some ways is particularly appropriate to the Christian tradition? I was thinking back to classical epics, and it seems to me as though there is often an initial perilous episode before getting into the main plot (i.e. the storm at the opening of the Aeneid) that there isn't this kind of exact parallel between an opening episode that seems to overcome exactly the problem that will make up the main narrative. Any thoughts on this?

This actually brings us neatly to Jo's excellent points:

Quote:

---

Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita signifies the advent of Western autonomy in a dramatic break with the Homeric epic tradition, one that Virgil carries forward in the Aeneid, of external actions being fatalistic toward a willed destiny. Though the gods may play poker with the Trojans and the Greeks, the victors are a foregone conclusion, and by extension, so to the founding of Rome. People may suffer and battle and love but to the ancients these are plotted points, but the absorption of Christian theology into the empire, and later Europe, revolutionizes this.

The individual has a choice that is not willed according to pagan design, but through an individual faith towards reunionification with divine love, or the rejection of that; hence Dante was one of the first poets to create an interior individual reality that merges with both Hellenistic rationality and the tradition of courtly love as exemplified by poets like Petrarch. This is what I was attempting to convey to Leland, perhaps unsuccessfully, about the revolutionary aspect of the Commedia. It fuses the Hellenistic tradition and supercedes it by creating, for the first time, the individual will that struggles to form its own destiny.

---

Yes, thanks for raising some very big questions and observations about the contrast between the DC's status as Christian epic and the classical epic traditions he is in direct dialogue with. I think you're absolutely right that there's a shift of focus in Dante to the interior life of the individual, and it's a very complex shift. The question of the role of the "individual will" in the Divine Comedy is perhaps one that we can think about as we go into our discussion.

Quote:

---

Petrarch... I'd be more than thrilled to engaged in a Dante discussion. Nothing like another reason to reread Dante... perhaps one of the translations I haven't gotten around to. I won't be able to participate however until later Sunday. I have a Wedding tomorrow and I plan on getting into my studio to actually get something done on my own art work for once. (12 days left 'til Summer Break!)

---

Well, you realize that we'll have read through the entire Divina Commedia by this Sunday. I mean how hard is it to discuss? Just a bunch of moralistic stuff you could get in Sunday school. :biggrin5: Sorry, couldn't resist. I've got a pretty busy schedule for the next few weeks myself, so I imagine we'll be making a pretty leisurely pace. Look forward to hearing from you when you're able to chime in.

12 days until Summer Break eh? Maybe you need a countdown song, like the 12 days of Christmas: 12 students snoring, 11 spitwads sticking, 10 bureaucrats testing...5 class bells to ring....

Just keep making it to the end of the day. Hope you enjoy the wedding.

I know anyone could find this site on their own, but I think this is the one I was refering to earlier, and I am going to bookmark it in my academics folder as a reading assistant--and no, I still cannot sit for any quiet reflection with the first canto, but by Monday evening I should have started. :rolleyes:

There have been some remarks on the pseudo-dream-like qualities of the opening, which I largely agree with. I think the strength of Dante's opening lies in his impressive use of ambiguity, polar juxtaposition, and liminality. Not only is he midway through his life, but he is half-way between reality and dream, on the margins of purgatory and hell, where he finds both horror and solace. Furthermore, you have the meeting between the ancient and modern poet, and also the juxtaposition of wild and dangerous beasts with the great sage of classical civilization. These comparisons come thick and fast, which psychologically serves to destabilize this area; we experience some of the same uncertainty that Dante himself goes through.

There is also a marvellously sublime aspect to the wood; not only is it savage and rough, but it inspires terror. Our sophisticated Florentine is rather at a loss without the trappings of civilisation; he is, like Virgil, out of his ideal element, which serves to emphasise the symbolic relationship between the two poets. I'm also fascinated by Dante's use of animal imagery; the exclusive use of predatory creatures hightens the sense of threat, and the exoticism of them compounds the unusualness of the situation. The use of the she-wolf is particularly interesting; his usage of the image is surprisingly germanic, in which tradition the she-wolf is a powerful symbol of apocalypse. In the context of Italy, one wonders whether this is some sort of reference to the foundation of Rome, and the concept that cities are breeding grounds for the future inhabitants of hell (as Dante's various meetings suggests)? In which case, there is some suggestion that cities are just as dangerous as the metaphorical woods; by implication, we denizens of the real world, wherever we may be, are in as much spiritual danger, and spiritual isolation, as Dante is on the periphary of hell.

Yikes, Petrarch finally comes back when I'm away from home for an extended period and I have no access to my Dante. *Sigh*

Everyone has such great posts here already. I will have to make the time for this one. :)

Thanks for starting the discussion, Petrarch. It's been a while since there's been a good book discussion on the forum. I'll try to post as much as I can, but I'm a little lost when it comes to medieval poetry--my own personal selva oscura. Of course, Dante's forest is a personal one, as well, and many have already pointed out the prominence of the individual in the first canto:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

Dante is trying to grapple with the same things through the lens of his own world, his own religious beliefs, his own personal loves and resentments. He places himself, as an ordinary person like the rest of us facing "nostra vita,"

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wilde woman

Lovely reading. As you said, these lines set up our expectations that this will not only be a supernatural journey through Hell but also a journey inward of self-discovery. This makes sense because Dante began writing the Divine Comedy in a moment of despair.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jozanny

This is what I was attempting to convey to Leland, perhaps unsuccessfully, about the revolutionary aspect of the Commedia. It fuses the Hellenistic tradition and supercedes it by creating, for the first time, the individual will that struggles to form its own destiny.

---

I was noticing the same coupling of personal experience and epic conventions. Maybe the marriage of these two elements is not quite so happy as we're imagining it, though. It seems like there's an odd division between the two that's drawn (at times) which is never completely overcome. I think that might have something to do with why the second canto almost restarts the poem. The first canto positions us in the usual epic in media res, but we're in the middle of life and not some grand, heroic act. Dante meets a muse-like figure in Virgil, but it's not the typical invocation to a removed, inspiring figure. Rather, he exchanges pleasantries with this person and could physically shake his hand. We don't get the usual epic openning until the start of the second canto. There, Dante states the topic of the poem and invokes the muse properly. It's a weird second beginning of the poem. The first beginning is linked to personal history and development, and the second belongs to a heroic, epic tradition. Rather than fusing these together in the first canto, Dante seperates them into entirely different cantos. That might change how we view Dante's melding of individual life with an epic tradition. This seperation comes out even when you look at the similies in the first canto. The first simile is has grand Virgilian echoes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dante

I spent in such distress, was calmed.

And as one who, with laboring breath,
has escaped from the deep to the shore
turns and looks back at the perilous waters,

so my mind

---

It recalls the storm-tossed feelings of the great heroes of Greek and Roman epic, and raises his own inner turmoils to heroic grandeur. The second simile takes a much a different approach:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dante

And like one who rejoices in his gains
but when the time comes and he loses,
turns all his thought to sadness and lament,

such did the restless beast make me

---

Now his sadness is like that of a merchant's or a gambler's--figures taken more from comedies than epics. Sometimes the combination of epic and personal experience appears almost seemless, but at other times the two look like complete opposites. It's difficult to know whether one contains the other, or whether they're held in some kind of equal tension. But, I think it's worth noting that in some cases the two are not completely worked together. I'll probably say more about it when I get into the motivations behind both the epic and personal history threads that run through the poem. I like what Jozanny had pointed out about the Christian influences and what Wilde Woman has said about the Dante-specific motivations, but I think there's still some more to add to this.

In any case, I hope everyone can stay with the discussion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lokasenna

There have been some remarks on the pseudo-dream-like qualities of the opening, which I largely agree with. I think the strength of Dante's opening lies in his impressive use of ambiguity, polar juxtaposition, and liminality. Not only is he midway through his life, but he is half-way between reality and dream, on the margins of purgatory and hell, where he finds both horror and solace. Furthermore, you have the meeting between the ancient and modern poet, and also the juxtaposition of wild and dangerous beasts with the great sage of classical civilization. These comparisons come thick and fast, which psychologically serves to destabilize this area; we experience some of the same uncertainty that Dante himself goes through.

There is also a marvellously sublime aspect to the wood; not only is it savage and rough, but it inspires terror. Our sophisticated Florentine is rather at a loss without the trappings of civilisation; he is, like Virgil, out of his ideal element, which serves to emphasise the symbolic relationship between the two poets. I'm also fascinated by Dante's use of animal imagery; the exclusive use of predatory creatures hightens the sense of threat, and the exoticism of them compounds the unusualness of the situation. The use of the she-wolf is particularly interesting; his usage of the image is surprisingly germanic, in which tradition the she-wolf is a powerful symbol of apocalypse. In the context of Italy, one wonders whether this is some sort of reference to the foundation of Rome, and the concept that cities are breeding grounds for the future inhabitants of hell (as Dante's various meetings suggests)? In which case, there is some suggestion that cities are just as dangerous as the metaphorical woods; by implication, we denizens of the real world, wherever we may be, are in as much spiritual danger, and spiritual isolation, as Dante is on the periphary of hell.

---

Lovely account of the liminality of the opening, Lokasenna. Yes, what do we all make of the she-wolf. I hadn't thought of the germanic tradition in relation to that symbol in Dante before. I wonder if that could be an influence in some remote or indirect way? The more obvious influence is, as you say, the symbol of Rome. I like the idea that this evokes the city as breeding ground for hell. More directly, of course, Dante had been exiled by the papal party (the Guelphs) and wasn't a big fan of the pope, so a negative symbol of Rome isn't too surpising on that front. Singleton cites Jerome 5:6 in relation to the three beasts (as usual, I cite both the English and the Vulgate in the interests of keeping the version Dante knew before us):

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jer. 5:6

Wherefore a lion out of the wood hath slain them, a wolf in the evening hath spoiled them, a leopard watcheth for their cities: every one that shall go out thence shall be taken, because their transgressions are multiplied, their rebellions are strengthened.

Idcirco percussit eos leo de silva, lupus ad vesperam vastavit eos, pardus vigilans super civitates, quia multiplicatae sunt praevaricationes eorum, confortatae sunt aversiones eorum.

---

This also fits with the lines from about 94 on, in which the wolf is described as rapacious and devouring.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

Yikes, Petrarch finally comes back when I'm away from home for an extended period and I have no access to my Dante. *Sigh*

Everyone has such great posts here already. I will have to make the time for this one. :)

---

Hi Virg.--Sorry to start this while you are away. It was an impulse thread! If you have some online time and want to follow along, this site (which I think someone already linked to above, but I'll post again) http://www.divinecomedy.org/divine_comedy.html had the text of the DC in both Italian and English translation. This is also a useful site that everyone on this thread probably should be aware of if they are not already: http://etcweb.princeton.edu/dante/pdp/index.html

This will probably be a nice leisurely discussion, too, so that may give you a chance to chime in if you like. At the present pleasant pace, your son may be taking his first steps before we get to canto 2. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quark

Thanks for starting the discussion, Petrarch. It's been a while since there's been a good book discussion on the forum. I'll try to post as much as I can, but I'm a little lost when it comes to medieval poetry--my own personal selva oscura. Of course, Dante's forest is a personal one, as well, and many have already pointed out the prominence of the individual in the first canto:

---

Hi Quark--Glad you're joining the discussion. Non Medievalists are definitely welcome!

Quote:

---

I was noticing the same coupling of personal experience and epic conventions. Maybe the marriage of these two elements is not quite so happy as we're imagining it, though. It seems like there's an odd division between the two that's drawn (at times) which is never completely overcome. I think that might have something to do with why the second canto almost restarts the poem. The first canto positions us in the usual epic in media res, but we're in the middle of life and not some grand, heroic act. Dante meets a muse-like figure in Virgil, but it's not the typical invocation to a removed, inspiring figure. Rather, he exchanges pleasantries with this person and could physically shake his hand. We don't get the usual epic openning until the start of the second canto. There, Dante states the topic of the poem and invokes the muse properly. It's a weird second beginning of the poem. The first beginning is linked to personal history and development, and the second belongs to a heroic, epic tradition. Rather than fusing these together in the first canto, Dante seperates them into entirely different cantos. That might change how we view Dante's melding of individual life with an epic tradition. This seperation comes out even when you look at the similies in the first canto. The first simile is has grand Virgilian echoes:

It recalls the storm-tossed feelings of the great heroes of Greek and Roman epic, and raises his own inner turmoils to heroic grandeur. The second simile takes a much a different approach:

It recalls the storm-tossed feelings of the great heroes of Greek and Roman epic, and raises his own inner turmoils to heroic grandeur. The second simile takes a much a different approach:

Now his sadness is like that of a merchant's or a gambler's--figures taken more from comedies than epics. Sometimes the combination of epic and personal experience appears almost seemless, but at other times the two look like complete opposites. It's difficult to know whether one contains the other, or whether they're held in some kind of equal tension. But, I think it's worth noting that in some cases the two are not completely worked together. I'll probably say more about it when I get into the motivations behind both the epic and personal history threads that run through the poem. I like what Jozanny had pointed out about the Christian influences and what Wilde Woman has said about the Dante-specific motivations, but I think there's still some more to add to this.

In any case, I hope everyone can stay with the discussion.

---

[/QUOTE]

Some excellent points. Yes, I pointed to the way he seems to begin and then begin again within canto 1, and you're right that this is even more prominent in the more formal, classically epic re-start a the opening of canto 2. One explanation for this, of course, is that he's now met Virgil and this meeting has given him the ability to now incorporate an epic voice. Read in this light, the significance of the second beginning is that it makes the themes of learning, reflection, and returning explicity right away in the poem. It not only suggests that the Dante figure himself revisits old territory as a means of progressing into new, but suggests the way in which we are meant to approach the poem, that we are meant to read and re-read, look at the same thing from multiple perspectives. You look at one way of opening a poem and then you do a retake to explore what the juxtaposition of the two reveals. This is central to the way Medieval/Early Modern allegory was meant to function. It was a means of reading meant to encourage revisiting, which was in turn intended to prompt an engagement with the text that would prompt learning. Part of this allegorical tradition emerges, of course, from approaches to biblical exegesis, and the double beginning in some way echoes the narrative structure of the bible itself, which famously begins with two different accounts of creation.

However, to get back to your point about relationships between the personal and the epic experiences and the possible separations and fissures between the two as well as the way they are integrated into one another, I think you're raising some good questions about how the personal, the epic, the classical and the Christian are at work in this poem, and I imagine these are themes we'll continue to discuss as we continue in our reading of the poem. I think you're right to put some pressure on the way that, at the same time these various elements are coming together in this poem, there is also evidence of a "tension" between the two as you phrase it. I like the two metaphors you bring out, which again reinforce the apparent victory of the first 25 lines or so, immediately replaced and undermined by the fear and uncertainty of the episode with the three beasts. I think your insight into these two modes being a contrast between the narrator inhabiting a heroic mode and then inhabiting the mode of a mere mortal is apt. The only thing I would possibly question is your characterization of the second metaphor as a character from a comedy. Though I see what you mean about the potential for it to open up onto a more plebian, possibly comic character such as a gambler or merchant, couldn't these lines also simply be associated with the tragic mode of the man who has worked against fate and lost?

Anyway, I'm glad to see this shaping into such a good conversation everyone and look forward to seeing how this continues.

I realized that I was beginning to refer to allegory in my last post, and that this is a rather huge term for the DC. I also realize that the participants in this discussion likely fall into a wide range in their knowledge and understanding of what allegory means and approaches to allegorical reading. I haven't yet found any really great online resources regarding allegory in the Middle Ages, so I may devote a post to defining/discussing the concept at some point (am far too busy at the moment, but possibly in a couple of weeks). For those unfamiliar with the term at all, this Wikipedia article may at least get you started: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegor...he_Middle_Ages

In the meantime, I wonder if anyone here who does have a strong grasp of Medieval Allegory has found a good concise way of explaining it. If so, I would love to read any attempts at definition you're willing to post. This is a concept I find very challenging to get across well in my teaching (that is, to explain it in a way that helps students move beyond viewing allegory simply as a bunch of symbols and personifications to identify) and I am actively trying to sort out ways that I can effectively move people toward a real understanding of how allegory works.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

Yes, what do we all make of the she-wolf. I hadn't thought of the germanic tradition in relation to that symbol in Dante before. I wonder if that could be an influence in some remote or indirect way? The more obvious influence is, as you say, the symbol of Rome. I like the idea that this evokes the city as breeding ground for hell. More directly, of course, Dante had been exiled by the papal party (the Guelphs) and wasn't a big fan of the pope, so a negative symbol of Rome isn't too surpising on that front. Singleton cites Jerome 5:6 in relation to the three beasts (as usual, I cite both the English and the Vulgate in the interests of keeping the version Dante knew before us):

This also fits with the lines from about 94 on, in which the wolf is described as rapacious and devouring.

---

Yeah, the she-wolf has much to with Rome. It's hard not to read it as Lokasenna does, as the she-wolf is a main figure in the Roman founding myth. I think Dante may be applying it more generally to the Roman state rather than specifically to the urban center--since this is a wolf of the forest.

As the little bit of criticism of the poem that I've read points out, too, the wolf may also be a reference to the Capitoline Wolf found in the Pope's Lateran Palace. You can find information on this here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitoline_Wolf . The wolf can be taken in this reading to mean the power of the church.

I think the most obvious interpretation is the one that Petrarch is hinting at: wolf as rapacity or greed. Dante may be pointing out how that sin of excess permeates individuals like the pilgrim, as well as states like Rome and institutions like the church.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

Some excellent points. Yes, I pointed to the way he seems to begin and then begin again within canto 1, and you're right that this is even more prominent in the more formal, classically epic re-start a the opening of canto 2. One explanation for this, of course, is that he's now met Virgil and this meeting has given him the ability to now incorporate an epic voice. Read in this light, the significance of the second beginning is that it makes the themes of learning, reflection, and returning explicity right away in the poem. It not only suggests that the Dante figure himself revisits old territory as a means of progressing into new, but suggests the way in which we are meant to approach the poem, that we are meant to read and re-read, look at the same thing from multiple perspectives. You look at one way of opening a poem and then you do a retake to explore what the juxtaposition of the two reveals. This is central to the way Medieval/Early Modern allegory was meant to function. It was a means of reading meant to encourage revisiting, which was in turn intended to prompt an engagement with the text that would prompt learning. Part of this allegorical tradition emerges, of course, from approaches to biblical exegesis, and the double beginning in some way echoes the narrative structure of the bible itself, which famously begins with two different accounts of creation.

---

That's very interesting. I didn't pick up on all of that the first time through, but it makes sense. I like the idea that the poem models in its form the way it wants to be received. My point was a little more simple: that "incorporating" an epic voice is much different than just speaking in one.

Dante gives the deffinition of allegory in his Il Convivio (first chapter, I think) when he speaks about the different lawyers of interpretation that a work of ary must have. It is not exactly what we think of allegory today, but somehow more broader, and also simpler, somewhat all the poetic meanings beyond the literal meanings of the text. So, basically, all you guys are doing is "translating" the allegories of Dante.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JCamilo

Dante gives the deffinition of allegory in his Il Convivio (first chapter, I think) when he speaks about the different lawyers of interpretation that a work of ary must have. It is not exactly what we think of allegory today, but somehow more broader, and also simpler, somewhat all the poetic meanings beyond the literal meanings of the text. So, basically, all you guys are doing is "translating" the allegories of Dante.

---

I know it's a typo, but I just love the idea of the 'lawyers of interpretation' - makes it sound like art has to be discussed in court...

It dawned on me that there's a nice little essay on Dante and allegory by Peter Hollander on the Princeton Dante site: http://etcweb.princeton.edu/dante/pdp/allegory.html and that this site also contains the text of the Convivio. Book II of Il Conviviocontains the definition of allegory JCamilo refers to and is excerpted here: http://etcweb.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/...&REF=II.i.3-41 and also linked in the article.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lokasenna

I know it's a typo, but I just love the idea of the 'lawyers of interpretation' - makes it sound like art has to be discussed in court...

---

It would be certainly more democratic, no?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

(As a side question, do any of you learned types know where the "valley" comes from? Was this purely poetic license on the part of the English translator? Or is it in the Hebrew original and left out of the Latin version? It's so much in our heads, that I wonder where it came from?)

---

I have no idea about the Hebrew, but just a random thought. It might be possible that Dante is in a valley because he later climbs a hill to be able to see the sun. I could imagine a director setting the first canto in a forested valley surrounded by hills....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

(yes, I'm finishing up a chapter on Spenser right now, so people are just going to have to tolerate my FQ references)

---

How ironic. I just bought a copy of the Faerie Queen and am about to start reading it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lokasenna

I think the strength of Dante's opening lies in his impressive use of ambiguity, polar juxtaposition, and liminality. Not only is he midway through his life, but he is half-way between reality and dream, on the margins of purgatory and hell, where he finds both horror and solace.

---

And this liminality works in the temporal setting of the poem as well. In one of the interpretations I've read, Dante enters Hell on the evening of Good Friday, when Christ died on the Cross. Later he emerges from Purgatory, ready to ascend into Paradise on the morning of Easter Sunday, thus completing one cycle of his own symbolic death and rebirth on the celebratory dates of Christ's.

And Lok, I really like your readings of the she-wolf and the the corrupt cities. I've personally always read it as a corruption of the she-wolf who raised Remus and Romulus.

Speaking of which, what does everyone think of the mysterious Greyhound that Virgil tells us will come to defeat the she-wolf?

Quote:

---

Molti son li animal a cui s’ammoglia
E più saranno ancora, infin che ‘l veltro
Verrà, che la farà morir con doglia.
Questi non ciberà terra né peltro
Ma sapienza, amore e virtute,
E sua nazion sarà tra feltro e feltro.
Di quella umile Italia fia salute
Per cui morì la vergine Cammilla,
Eurialo e Turno e Niso di ferute.
Questi la caccerà per ogne villa,
Fin che l’avrà rimessa ne lo ‘nferno,
Là onde ‘nvidia prima dipartilla.

She [the she-wolf] mates with many living souls and shall / yet mate with many more, until the Greyhound / arrives, inflicting painful death on her. That Hound will never feed on land or pewter, / but find his fare in wisdom, love, and virtue; / his place of birth shall be between two felts. / He will restore low-lying Italy / for which the maid Camilla died of wounds, / and Nisus, Turnus, and Euryalus. / And he will hunt that beast through every city / until he thrusts her back again to Hell, / from which she was the first sent above by envy. (Mandelbaum's translation)

---

I can see this Greyhound representing Christ or Henry VII, though I wonder if the form of a hound has any significance (other than as a beast that hunts wolves). Any ideas?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

You look at one way of opening a poem and then you do a retake to explore what the juxtaposition of the two reveals. This is central to the way Medieval/Early Modern allegory was meant to function. It was a means of reading meant to encourage revisiting, which was in turn intended to prompt an engagement with the text that would prompt learning.

---

I'm not at all familiar with this concept. Could you explain a bit more and give some examples in medieval poetry?

And since we're sharing websites, I've always thought this one was a pretty nifty one. It has illustrations for each level of hell and brief notes. Made by UT Austin:

http://danteworlds.laits.utexas.edu/

Not paying any attention to the thread's progress, I like Mandelbaum's frame of reference, that we are closer to Dante's work than his age was to Virgil's, because I tend to see works themselves as living and vibrant entities despite scholarly dependence on textuality. And this is an important point for me: Dante's work is alive and beating in my bloodstream, and I cannot even say that for some modern poets, like Plath, though her work cannot sustain comparison. Plath is a trope already stale, even in some of her stronger efforts that call on my empathy.

Dante will never fall for me into the mere veneer of literary conceit, despite how many of those he had up his sleeve in the act of composition. Hopefully I will have some down time in the next 48 hours to add any additional thoughts on the animal archetypes and their 50 million footnotes.

Being away I cannot really join in the conversation, but I echo Jozy's point: Dante refuses to grow stale. It is probably the most rich work in all of literature.

I must jump into this discussion tomorrow. I've started reading the Pinsky translation of The Inferno and the introductory essay has some intriguing points that I'll try to throw out here. I'm still waiting on my Hollander translation... but I can consult my Ciardi, Mandelbaum, and Longfellow. It would probably be easier to just learn Italian:skep:...

Originally Posted by Dante
I spent in such distress, was calmed.

And as one who, with laboring breath,
has escaped from the deep to the shore
turns and looks back at the perilous waters,

so my mind

This is clearly a Homeric epic simile...
"As one who...etc...." :biggrin5:

Volumes could be written on trovai vs. ritrovai.

Molti son li animal a cui s’ammoglia....

Anyone have a take on this language? I speak modern Italian and can read through the Commedia...but I don't get everything...at least I feel as if I'm looking at the text through gauze or some sort of filter...like a modern English speaker reading Chaucer. I know that Dante spoke Tuscan, which is one of the Italian dialects. I speak and can read modern Italian, and I also understand one of the Italian dialects (Emiliano). In modern Italian this phrase would be "Motii sono gli animali a cui..." "li animal" is close to the Emiliano "al nimel" which means not only animals, but specifically refers to pigs in the Emiliano dialect. The Tuscans were not far from us in the Po Valley.

Hurrah! My Hollander translations of The Inferno and Purgatorio have arrived. I'll be tearing into the notes and essays on these ASAP... although I'm planning to continue reading the Pinsky Inferno which I'm quite enjoying. Perhaps I jump between the two.

What has struck me about the Inferno is how easy it actually is to read. Admittedly this is my fourth of 5th time through and I do have enough Renaissance and Medieval history under my belt so as to no slow me down... but still... for all the complexity of symbolism and allegory... Dante is first and foremost a brilliant story-teller. The narrative flows rapidly and he is quite adept at sensual/sensory descriptiveness... especially the visual. This mastery of narrative is something he shares with Firdowsi (the Shahnameh) or Cervantes... and something other writers lack while they hone in on the allegorical complexity.

The Pinsky Inferno begins with an introductory essay by the Dante professor, John Freccero (NYU). We were discussing the impact of Homer and Greek literature in general on Dante in another thread, and lo, this essay picks up on the centrality of Ulysses (Odysseus) to the Comedia. Ulysses has a major dramatic episode related within the Inferno... but unlike any other character he meets in Hell, Ulysses shows up again in Purgatorio and Paradisio. Freccero points out that Dante and Ulysses share the same goal in the Inferno: the Mountain of Purgatory. Ulysses makes his great speech in defense of the rationale of man... but makes no mention of spirituality... faith... humility... and thus he fails in his quest where Dante will succeed. Dante's own initial failure to scale the mountain reinforces this point.

I don't know what translations others are reading (and obviously Petrarch has the best of all worlds, reading the poem in the original) but I'll make a few notes about Pinsky's translation. Pinsky argues that Dante's terza rima is an essential element to his poem... but one not easily achieved in English as a result of the lack of rhyme. He notes that some translators choose to maintain the rhyme by forcing by putting the language and syntax through tortured contortions. The other alternative, is to ignore the rhyme altogether freeing up the need to hunt for the best possible rhyme that maintains some semblance of the original meaning. Pinsky argues that maintaining some semblance of the rhyme structure essentially forces him as poet/translator to give greater thought to word choices and lends a greater rigor. What he employs, however, is a sort of half rhyme... favored by Yeats and used in Pinsky's own poetic efforts. Thus the poet employs end words such as "sleep/stop/up".

Pinsky begins the poem:


Midway on our life's journey, I found myself
In dark woods, the right road lost. To tell
About those woods is hard- so tangled and rough

And savage that thinking of it now, I feel
The old fear stirring; death is hardly more bitter.
And yet, to treat the good I found there as well

I'll tell what I saw, though how I came to enter
I cannot say, being so full of sleep
Whatever moment it was I began to blunder

Off the true path...


The Hollander translation begins:


Midway in the journey of our life
I came to myself in a dark wood,
for the straight way was lost

Ah, how hard it is to tell
the nature of that wood, savage, dense, and harsh-
the very thought of it renews my fear!

It is so bitter death is hardly more so.
But to set forth the good I found
I will recount the other things I saw

How I came there I cannot really tell,
I was so full of sleep
when I forsook the one true way...

I read the Pinksy translation a few years ago and I thought he was brilliant with the half rhyme scheme.

I went back and read through the Hollander translation of Canto I including the rich collection of notes. One of the most well-known symbols... the three beasts Dante confronts on the hill in the dark wood (the leopard, lion, and she-wolf) are also the most disputed as to meaning. These beasts echo the three which will assail the Israelites in Jeremiah 5:6. The original medieval/Renaissance commentators seem to have been unanimous in their interpretation of these beasts as representing the sins of lust, pride, and avarice. This interpretation fell out of favor for years and interpretations included the leopard as Dante's Florentine enemies, the lion as the French (who Dante despised for their meddling in Italian politics), and the she-wolf as the Papal powers. The leopard with her "gaudy" coat has always been an attractive symbol for lust to me... although I have usually imagined it as representative of the whole of the carnal sins of bodily excess including gluttony and avarice or greed. The lion I have taken as more representative of the sins of pride and violence, while the she-wolf represents those crimes against reason. I take this interpretation considering Dante's own structure of hell in which sins against reason are afforded far worse punishment than mere violent crimes of passion... even murder.

I'd be interested in other interpretations... especially those of Petrarch'sLove.

St Lukes, I would not be surprised if Dante intended multi faceted readings. His allegory is usually not a one to one coresspondence but of one to three or four. He could have intended all of those readings for the three beasts and perhaps more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stlukesguild

I'll make a few notes about Pinsky's translation. Pinsky argues that Dante's terza rima is an essential element to his poem... but one not easily achieved in English as a result of the lack of rhyme. He notes that some translators choose to maintain the rhyme by forcing by putting the language and syntax through tortured contortions. The other alternative, is to ignore the rhyme altogether freeing up the need to hunt for the best possible rhyme that maintains some semblance of the original meaning. Pinsky argues that maintaining some semblance of the rhyme structure essentially forces him as poet/translator to give greater thought to word choices and lends a greater rigor. What he employs, however, is a sort of half rhyme...

---

I know we're not really evaluating translations here, but I think it's the right choice for English translators not to attempt to capture the terza rima because it's practically impossible in English. However, I'm interested in this idea of half-rhyme. Is it at all related to slant rhyme?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stlukesguild

The original medieval/Renaissance commentators seem to have been unanimous in their interpretation of these beasts as representing the sins of lust, pride, and avarice.

---

Though I accept that this is the standard interpretation for the three beasts, I always wondered why (if we accept this interpretation) Dante chose these three particular sins. True, they are three of the seven deadly sins (described in Purgatorio), but wouldn't it make more sense if they corresponded with the three overarching types of sin Dante describes in Hell (incontinence in circles 1-5, violence in circle 7, and fraud in circles 8-9)? Dante especially surrounds the incontinent sinners with animal imagery. Thoughts?

...wouldn't it make more sense if they corresponded with the three overarching types of sin Dante describes in Hell (incontinence in circles 1-5, violence in circle 7, and fraud in circles 8-9)? Dante especially surrounds the incontinent sinners with animal imagery.

That was my thought as well... it always seemed so obvious that I couldn't help but wonder why it was not more generally accepted... but as Virgil states... it is quite likely Dante was prepared to accept multiple interpretations.

If I can speculate a little on the leopard, sort of working backward from modernism, I do not think it is an accident that Dante's use of the animal reverberates: Lampedusa does not name his Prince "The Leopard" for nothing, and Doris Lessing, as well, heavily ties the animal to a primal Roman psychology in her weak novel, The Cleft.

Lions, I believe, extended their range into Europe in our early history, but I do not think leopards naturally made it that far and were exported, possibly out of defeated Carthage?

I am not looking at my notes, and I have a lot of them because I have two editions I am working with, but Rome saw Egyptian Orientalism as a state concept that needed to be defeated, and perhaps this plays into Dante's use of the animal as a looming threat. Let me think a little more. :)

luke: I am not sure I like Pinsky's efforts, but that may be a conservative reaction.

JoZ... Sorry if I don't respond logically but memorial Day Weekend... and I've wound up a very very hot day in the studio having finished the latest painting gone home to grill steaks on the grill and now I'm several good strong British beers under the weather (thank God for spell check) including a big bottle of Three Philosopher's Belgian Ale (10% alcohol) with Miles Davis, Brubeck and the Stones blasting at ear crunching levels.

Nevertheless... I certainly thought of Lampedusa's Leopard myself....


"But we all need someone we can bleed on..."

Sorry


sorry...


I think I'll wait 'til tomorrow...:party::drool5::cheers2::reddevil: :ack2:

:lol:I come back after a rather busy week and what's happened to this promising Dante discussion? Already the drunken revels!

I'll have a little more time to come back and post properly tomorrow or later tonight. For now, I wonder if perhaps we should move forward into canto 2 (though people are also welcome to stick with canto 1 if you prefer). We've already talked a little about how the start of canto 2 is, essentially, a second start to the poem. It is at the start of this canto that we receive the more formal epic style invocation : "O Muse, o alto ingegno, or m'aiutatate" (O Muses, O high genius, help me now!" and it also marks a return to night and ends with a full return to the surroundings of the opening of canto 1 : "intrai per lo cammino alto e silvestro" (I entered along the deep and savage way). The passage of time is something to keep track of in the Commedia and becomes especially important when we can see the sky again in the Purgatorio and in the Paradiso. As many of you probably know, each of the three parts of the Commedia[ ends with the word "stelle" (stars). At the end of Inferno he will say "E quindi uscimmo a riveder le stelle" (and thence we issued forth to see again the stars), but at the end of canto 2/start of canto 3 he is venturing into a timeless and dark place away from sky and stars.

On a different note, since some of you were discussing the leopard in canto 1, I noticed that the word for that animal in the Italian "una lonza" seemed like an unusual one. In his gloss, Singleton mentions that it is an unusual word and possibly an unusual beast. He cites a Medieval Bestiary (Bestiario toscano, M.S. Garver and K. McKenzie, 1912, p.86) as describing the "loncia" (aka "lonza" or, in Old French "lonce") as being an animal born of a lion and a leopard. Elsewhere, apparently the word is glossed as meaning a female leopard. Not sure exactly what that does for our interpretation of the beasts, but I thought it was interesting.

Link:

http://www.online-literature.com/for...670#post906670

Petrarch... and others... hopefully we are still on with our Dante discussion. I'm actually well beyond the second canto... but I returned to read it again... this time in the Hollander translation... and to also explore the voluminous notes. Among a few of the things that Robert Hollander points out:

This canto sees the first of Dante's invocations to the muses:

O Muses, O lofty genius, aid me now!
O memory that set down what I saw,
here shall your worth be shown.

Hollander points out that there are 9 instances in which Dante invokes the muses... and considering his attention to numerology and his obsession with the number 9, how likely is it that this is just a coincidence?

Hollander also points out that with the exception of the 11th canto in which Virgil is mostly involved in an explanation of the circles of hell, the second canto involves the greatest percentage of dialog... which is ordered symetrically:

Dante (10-36)
Virgil (43-57)
Beatrice (58-74)
Virgil (75-84)
Beatrice (84-114)
Virgil (115-126)
Dante (133-140)

Another interesting point made by Hollander concerns the Dante's dialog with Virgil... expressing his reservations about the journey through hell. Dante brings up two examples of predecessors on such a journey to the after-world: Aeneas (who journeyed through hell) and Paul, for his ascension to heaven while still alive. Speaking of Aeneas, Dante states, "You (Virgil) tell of the father of Sylvius..." suggesting that Dante must take the poet's word as fact... yet when speaking of Paul... there is no such suggestion that he must take another's word... he simply states the facts: "Later the Chosen Vessel went there, to bring back confirmation of our faith..." Even before reading Hollander's notes I noted how Dante is careful to suggest that there is a higher degree of veracity attached to the Biblical narratives than even to his beloved Virgil.

Dante follows this up with his great denial: "I am not Aeneas, nor am I Paul..." which immediately makes clear that the poet... who was not fond of false modesty... was most certainly putting forth himself and his narrative as another Aeneas and another Paul... just as two cantos further he will put forth himself among the great ancient poets including Virgil and Homer:

...they made me one among their company
so that I became the sixth amidst such wisdom...


Another point that grabbed my attention concerned the description of language. Virgil speaks of Beatrice: "Gentle and clear the words she spoke to me...". Beatrice, in turn, Speaks of Virgil's speech in these terms: "Set out, and with your polished words, and whatever else is needed for his safety, go to his aid...". The two adjectives, piana and ornata recall the medieval distictions between the low/vulgar and the ornate/high forms of rhetoric. Interestingly, Beatrice's speech is of the lower style... but one suspects that her "Gentle and clear" speech not only alludes to Dante's own use of Italian (the vulgar language... as opposed to Latin) as well as his development of what he termed the "sweet new style"... but it also connects Beatrice with the simple clear forms of language employed by the authors of the Gospels... using the simplest/artless language to convey the most profound message... as opposed to the studied artfulness of Poets such as Virgil.

My last thoughts concern the lines relating Lucy prodding Beatrice to help Dante:

"... Beatrice, true praise of God,
why do you not help the one who loved you so
that for your sake he left the vulgar herd?

Do you not hear the anguish in his tears?"

What exactly is the "vulgar herd" that Dante left? Does Lucy suggest that it is Beatrice who inspires Dante's turning away from the dark path? Such is certainly a plausible interpretation. Or does she suggest that it is Beatrice who inspired Dante's shift away from the conventional love poetry of his day, toward something greater... the development of his dolce stil novo (sweet new style) found in his La Vita Nuova. The latter again suggests Dante's lack of any false modesty and recognition of his own achievements.

These... anyway... are but some of the thoughts that came to me while reading this canto.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stlukesguild

Another interesting point made by Hollander concerns the Dante's dialog with Virgil... expressing his reservations about the journey through hell. Dante brings up two examples of predecessors on such a journey to the after-world: Aeneas (who journeyed through hell) and Paul, for his ascension to heaven while still alive. Speaking of Aeneas, Dante states, "You (Virgil) tell of the father of Sylvius..." suggesting that Dante must take the poet's word as fact... yet when speaking of Paul... there is no such suggestion that he must take another's word... he simply states the facts: "Later the Chosen Vessel went there, to bring back confirmation of our faith..." Even before reading Hollander's notes I noted how Dante is careful to suggest that there is a higher degree of veracity attached to the Biblical narratives than even to his beloved Virgil.

Dante follows this up with his great denial: "I am not Aeneas, nor am I Paul..." which immediately makes clear that the poet... who was not fond of false modesty... was most certainly putting forth himself and his narrative as another Aeneas and another Paul... just as two cantos further he will put forth himself among the great ancient poets including Virgil and Homer:

---

I'm confused as to which Paul you are talking about. St. Paul of Tarsus was beheaded in Rome in 67 AD. He didn't ascend to heaven alive. Could Dante have been wrong about something like that?

Acts 9:15- But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

II Corinthians 12:2-4-I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Commentary on the passage states that the letter written by Paul of Tarsus (Saint Paul or the Apostle Paul) to the Christians of Corinth, Greece speaks in a veiled manner of his own experience in which his soul was dislodged from the body for a time, and taken up into heaven... while he was still alive.

Dante's choice of the term, the "chosen vessel" makes clear that it is indeed Paul he refers to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stlukesguild

Acts 9:15- But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

II Corinthians 12:2-4-I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Commentary on the passage states that the letter written by Paul of Tarsus (Saint Paul or the Apostle Paul) to the Christians of Corinth, Greece speaks in a veiled manner of his own experience in which his soul was dislodged from the body for a time, and taken up into heaven... while he was still alive.

Dante's choice of the term, the "chosen vessel" makes clear that it is indeed Paul he refers to.

---

Oh I see. I thought you meant at the end of his life. Thanks. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nick Capozzoli

Molti son li animal a cui s’ammoglia....

Anyone have a take on this language? I speak modern Italian and can read through the Commedia...but I don't get everything...at least I feel as if I'm looking at the text through gauze or some sort of filter...like a modern English speaker reading Chaucer. I know that Dante spoke Tuscan, which is one of the Italian dialects. I speak and can read modern Italian, and I also understand one of the Italian dialects (Emiliano). In modern Italian this phrase would be "Motii sono gli animali a cui..." "li animal" is close to the Emiliano "al nimel" which means not only animals, but specifically refers to pigs in the Emiliano dialect. The Tuscans were not far from us in the Po Valley.

---

Italian is Tuscany's dialect - thanks mainly to Alessandro Manzoni, poet and novelist of the 19th century - and Dante's language is still very common in modern day Italian, various estimations calculate around 80% the average of Commedia's words still in use in Italy today.
As for "animali" at verse 100 of Inferno I, the best translation should be "men" since in the 13th century it was quite common "animali" for "uomini" - you'll see further examples of this in Inferno and in Purgatorio too.