I'm looking for books of literary merit that feature prominently homosexual themes--something of a cross between Death in Venice and Tennessee Williams. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. :)
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I'm looking for books of literary merit that feature prominently homosexual themes--something of a cross between Death in Venice and Tennessee Williams. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. :)
What is a predominantly gay theme? something like 30% of the major Western writers were, if not homosexual, than open minded, or bisexual. Outside of the West, the figure is perhaps higher, if we maintain a definition of homosexual as has sexual relations, or a desire to have sexual relations with the same sex.
Still, I'll be simple - try Plato.
Are "gay literature" and "homosexual themes" one and the same? I don't know.
Couple of books that I can think of right now:
Middlesex
Oranges Are Not The Only Fruit
Orlando
Still, having only read the last one, do we consider Orlando a homosexual novel? Do we consider Virginia Woolf a lesbian author?Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
"Sexuality" and "homosexuality" are among the themes explored.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
PS: I consider Woolf a boring author.
Where do you get thirty percent????Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
http://www.gallup.com/poll/6961/What...ation-Gay.aspxQuote:
What Percentage of the Population Is Gay?by Jennifer Robison, Contributing EditorIn his 1948 book, Sexual Behavior in the Human Male, Alfred Kinsey shocked the world by announcing that 10% of the male population is gay. A 1993 Janus Report estimated that nine percent of men and five percent of women had more than "occasional" homosexual relationships. The 2000 U.S. Census Bureau found that homosexual couples constitute less than 1% of American households. The Family Research Report says "around 2-3% of men, and 2% of women, are homosexual or bisexual." The National Gay and Lesbian Task Force estimates three to eight percent of both sexes.
The 2000 study seems to probably capture it, but it's arguably bounded anywhere from 2% to 8%, depending whose bias one supports. Now unless other western nations are different than the US, I cannot see where you would get 30%. (Gallup by the way is a non-partesan extremely respected polling company in the US.)
Jeanette Winterson - Lesbian. Read the Stone Gods
Well, you know, they say 58.17543% of statistics are made up on the spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Well some aspects of the works of Shakespeare and Plato can be speculated as having homosexual attributes. The relationship between Achilles and Patoclus in The Illiad may be interpreted as homoerotic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
But I'm not really sure if it measures up to thrity precent. . . . .
It depends how you want to classify it, most of the research I've seen puts self-identified homosexual males at 4-6% of the population and self-identified bisexuals at another 3-4%. However, studies looking at incidences of homosexual experience put the numbers a bit higher, so experimentation is a lot more common.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
A lot of surveys face a bias problem that has been accounted for better in recent research. Kinsey developed his famous 1/10 position from his observations of upper class urban males. This is the migration bias, since homosexuals tend to congregate in areas where there are other homosexuals, like New York City. When we try to account for this bias we usually get that approximately 5% number. So, 1/20 men instead of 1/10.
As to the thread topic, homosexual themes are quite common. For clarity's sake, let's consider "gay literature" to be literature written by homosexuals about homosexual characters, experiences, viewpoints, or issues. This excludes some writers like Gore Vidal, who would be considered major figures in queer literature, but it let's us keep it simple for now. With that definition I'd go with Larry Kramer and his plays as well as his novel Faggots. Another major author is Edmund White and his semi-autobiographical series that starts with A Boy's Own Story. E.M. Forster's Maurice is no where near as good as his other work and many critics have very negative views of its portrayal of homosexual love, but it is an interesting perspective having been written in 1911.
Edit: I admit a clear Western bias in my recommendations.
As to Orlando, I got halfway through it before I started to have landlord revenge fantasies, and when I do lift it up again I will probably start it over, but from where I am in the text, and from a video version I saw before I bought it, I am going to wade in and say it is not a gay agenda text the way A Passage to India is. A Passage To India is a homosexual love story concealed within itself. Straight readers were not supposed to, and probably did not get it, because Forster could have faced serious legal problems otherwise.
I see Orlando more as gender satire, but this opinion is not fully formed.
Titles I see as agenda driven are:
The Color Purple, Alice Walker
Nana, Zola--though Zola was straight and makes lesbianism vicious, probably so he could publish
The Lessons of The Master and The Wings of The Dove, Henry James
A Passage To India and Maurice, EM Forster
The Bravest Indian in the World, Alexie, though I am not big on Sherman and don't know why publishers like him, and some of Willa Cather. One of her editors shelved her career to be Cather's domestic partner in an age where the closed door policy was still in force.
There are more, but these I've read.
A Passage To India isn't simply a veiled homosexual love story, after all Forster himself was involved in an inter-racial relationship and was very much concerned with issues of racism and the oppression of the Indian people he witnessed while living there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jozanny
Oscar Wilde was certainly gay, for he was arrested for "leud conduct" due to his private relationships with a number of men. Proust too was clearly gay with In Search of Lost Time clearly having homosexual themes.
I did not mean to imply that its hidden eroticism was the full force of the text. I studied Forster for nearly an entire semester and he is a very radicalized author for what the then fading British Empire was amounting to in the sum of its parts, in that era.Quote:
Originally Posted by OrphanPip
I just estimated it myself really - but when you think of it - by today's definition, essentially all the Greeks were, the majority of the Romans, tons of the Victorians, and a great deal in the Renaissance too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
The figure you provided doesn't really make much sense in the context - for some reason, homosexuality and literature, particularly poetry, have been very connected - Shakespeare, for instance, if we are to take the youth from the sonnets as a person, rather than a fiction, Plato, Tennyson perhaps, Hart Crane, Virgil certainly, Sophocles definitely, etc.
I believe D. H. Lawrence made a remark in the like of "I should like to know why nearly every man that approaches greatness tends to homosexuality, whether he admits it or not…"
The relationship between Achilles and Patroklus is definitely homosexual, given the nature of the relationship, and the way Homer describes it (not figuratively, but in terms of titling and naming - a phrase which I think translates to "Great Friend" is definitely a reference to their relationship). I think to argue otherwise, as I am sure religious scholars and teachers throughout the middle ages (in a limited fashion of course) and the rennaissance did, is the same sort of cowardice as one sees with commentary on Virgil's second Eclogue - the first sentence can only mean one thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielBenoit
As for the figure, it was meant to go by author, rather than by individual text.
I guess it depends on whether you're interested in homosexuality in literature or the "modern" homosexual themes, which I believe comes from the homosexual individual in relation to an intolerant society. I don't know if Plato would be what you're looking for in that regard, but beyond the Brokeback Mountain novella I would suggest William S. Burroughs.
One out of every three people you know is gay? You must know a hell of a number of gay people.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
What? Are you saying that 100% of the Greeks were gay? That sentence has to be the silliest thing I've heard you say.Quote:
but when you think of it - by today's definition, essentially all the Greeks were, the majority of the Romans, tons of the Victorians, and a great deal in the Renaissance too.
Half those people are conjectured to be gay. There's no proof. This is all post modern hog wash politically driven absurdity.Quote:
- The figure you provided doesn't really make much sense in the context - for some reason, homosexuality and literature, particularly poetry, have been very connected - Shakespeare, for instance, if we are to take the youth from the sonnets as a person, rather than a fiction, Plato, Tennyson perhaps, Hart Crane, Virgil certainly, Sophocles definitely, etc.
DH lawrence said a hell of a lot of silly things. The very end of that is psycho babble: "whether he admits it or not." :lol:Quote:
I believe D. H. Lawrence made a remark in the like of "I should like to know why nearly every man that approaches greatness tends to homosexuality, whether he admits it or not…"
I found the Brokeback Mountain film to be almost exploitative and simplistic in its portrayal of homosexual relationships, I can't speak for Proulx's short story, which I've heard good things about.Quote:
Originally Posted by NickAdams
Since most of the texts mentioned above are using the terms "homosexual" and "gay" anachronistically, I'll give you a few books that explore actual homosexual issues.
Stone Butch Blues
Dancer in the Dance by Andrew Holleran
The Swimming-Pool Libraries by Allan Hollinghurst
Faggots by Larry Kramer
The Sluts by Dennis Cooper
Frisk by Dennis Cooper
The Confessions of Max Tivoli by Andrew Sean Greer
Hollinghurst and Holleran are kind of boring, in my opinion, but they appeal to a more "literary-minded" crowd. My favorite I Faggots, which I've mentioned before. It has received its share of criticism for glorifying open sex, but the end of the book resolves that issue. Confessions is one of the only three books in my lifetime that have made me cry.
I'm no expert on ancient Greek culture, but bisexuality and homosexuality was quite popular during those times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Speculation of Shakespeare and Socrates homosexuality have been around for centuries and has nothing to do with the advent of postmodernism. It has merely been more wide-spread accepted because of recent cultural changes.Quote:
Half those people are conjectured to be gay. There's no proof. This is all post modern hog wash politically driven absurdity.
And of course there's no proof in cases like Shakespeare or Socrates. But I don't think that their sexual orientation should be such a big deal. One can interpret the 'Fair Youth' in the Sonnets to be homoerotic or hetroerotic, it doesn't make any difference, they're still beautiful poems.
Btw, I'm not just talking about you Virgil when I say this, but I hate how the term "postmodern" is thrown around so freely. Just like "deconstructionism" it is a widely known term which is misused in so many different ways.
Gay doesn't have to mean strictly homosexual males, it is just used that way popularly. I think it's acceptable to apply "gay" to all homosexuals, but it can cause confusion with the more popular sense of the word. Anyway, I usually prefer to talk about queer lit, to be inclusive of topics of gender identity and bisexuality as well, which can be difficult to separate from gay or lesbian issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by glover7
Edit: Ya anyone of the Violet Quill group (Holleran, White, Picano) would be a good choice for exploring gay literature.
Edit2: I just keep coming back, I had to comment on Faggots. Kramer is just too brilliant, I don't think he was glorifying that mindless sex in anyway at all. I find the book highly critical of the seeming emotional vacuum of the community. Most of the criticism I've seen directed against Kramer has been towards some perceived hostility towards the community, he is usually accused of being a homophobic gay. After all, Faggots was removed from the shelves of gay bookstores for being too critical of gays.
Well, let me ask you and everyone, is homosexuality a born (probably genetic thing) as claimed by almost all homosexuals or is it a choice? If it's genetic, then there is probably a constant percentage (the 2-8% cited) of people who are gay across time and cultures. If it's a choice then that percentage can be anything. Unless you or anyone want to dispute what most homosexuals say and what I hear from scientifically minded people, it's not a choice. It's fixed and innate. So why would any culture have a substantially different percentage of gays?Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielBenoit
I am not saying all the Greeks were gay, I am just saying, how we define gay, and how culture defines sexuality must be taken into account - under the purely physical definition, I would say anybody who practices pederasty (on either end) was gay or bisexual if they did so willingly, which, in the context of the Ancient Greeks, was pretty much all of them as it was normal, and in fact, the thing to do back then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Would I call them all gay? No, as I think the whole notion of "gay" or even "homosexual" is pretty much a Abrahamic construction built around a Judaic understanding of sodomy as a sin worthy of death.
Quote me that all homosexuals say this - perhaps most in the US where you draw your other statistics from. There has never been any conclusive evidence to prove homosexuality is biological, and I would bet that even if there were, which I doubt there ever will be, it would only be applicable to a fraction of those who identify as homosexual anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Well my words were confusing, let me clarify. Greek culture was probably less represive of homosexuality than other cultures (again, I'm no expert, I don't know for sure), and thus the homoeroticism is more open in their works. Homosexuality has existed throughout all cultures and times, it's just seems that the Greeks didn't have to hide it as much. One could say the same thing about todays society: Why is there such a substantial amount of gay literautre today? Because society has become more tolerant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Conclusive is a tough thing to do with any human behavior, especially when it's likely a combination of genetic and environmental. However, the evidence supports a genetic component with an important environmental effect. Homosexual males are statistically more likely to have older siblings and be born later in a mother's life, this supports an evolutionary argument based on kin-selection for a propensity for "strong" homosexuality. There is huge evolutionary advantage to sexual malleability in social animals, which is why homosexual behavior is probably so common amongst all primates.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
edit: Lesbianism isn't as well understood by biologist, but the predominant theory is that it arises out of group bonding behavior we see in chimps and bonobo.
There always has been a substantial amount of homosexual literature - I'm telling you, when you question it, things get close to 30% of major Western authors easily. Of course, that would vary between whose list one uses for "great literature" - mine is particularly poetry heavy, so perhaps that means something, but even as canonical a poet as King David was, I would think, at least bisexual - he said himself that his love for Yonatan was greater than any mans for a woman, so are we to argue with that?Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielBenoit
If you want proof in Plato, check out the begining of Protagoras.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Or Symposium.Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielBenoit
30% is certainly a vast overstatement... and comments about rampant homosexuality among Greeks, Romans, and Renaissance writers may also be exaggerations. Homosexuality and Bi-sexuality may have been more openly accepted... but I doubt that this resulted in a much greater occurrence, any more than the recognition of homosexual marriage will lead to a vast rush to gay marriage by heterosexuals who suddenly realize, "Gee, I coulda had a guy!":rolleyes:
Still there are more than a few homosexuals in literature (and the arts in general): Garcia-Lorca, Whitman, Hart Crane, Thomas Mann, Jean Cocteau, Jean Genet, etc... There are also more than a few instances of bisexuality: Wilde, Rimbaud, Verlaine, etc... It may just be possible that the arts have long been one of the most tolerant areas of society and as such they have represented something of a safe haven. Still, I do find that I agree somewhat with Virgil that suggestions that the sexuality of Shakespeare, Virgil, Plato, Woolf, Dickinson, etc... are clearly known is a blatant falsehood (owing much to wishful thinking among the contemporary gay community and gay theorists/critics). Hell, we even have scholars who argue that Jesus was gay when (like Socrates and even Homer) we can't even be certain that he even existed beyond a literary character. Personally, I find the notion of discovering proof of an authors sexuality from his or her writings as problematic as any Freudian attempt to uncover the personality of the artist solely upon the basis of the art.
Personally, when it comes to Shakespeare's sexuality I like Anthony Burgess' novel, Nothing Like the Sun, in which he imagines the Bard thinking he had knocked up an older Anne Hathaway leading to a shotgun wedding and his eventual abandoning her for a career in the theater where he becomes involved in a gay relationship with a young aristocrat and later with a woman of African descent while his wife carries on having affairs with his brothers Edmund and Richard (who were the true fathers of his supposed children) and thus leading to his choice of Edmund and Richard as two of his greatest villains. How's that for a plot?:brow:
I understand that gay doesn't strictly mean homosexual male. I simply meant that "homosexual" was a term created only rather recently, and its definition has altered drastically from its original usage.Quote:
Originally Posted by OrphanPip
Somebody mentioned Orlando by Virginia Woolf, which is a queer lit book, but it was a real slog for me to finish. I mean, I was actually close to skimming the last third of the book because I was so bored with it. What other queer lit would you recommend?
And I agree that the criticism leveled against Kramer is unwarranted. Most of the reviews I've read of Faggots talk about his unrealistic depiction of free and unchecked sex. Funnily enough, his other works have gotten him in trouble for being "conservative gay," like the main character of his play The Normal Heart. It's really a shame because I think Kramer pretty much has the right idea when it comes to most gay issues.
Well I already recommended A Boy's Own Story by Edmund White, Maurice by Forster, and Faggots by Kramer.Quote:
Originally Posted by glover7
I guess I could add The City and The Pillar by Gore Vidal, A Single Man by Isherwood and Giovanni's Room by James Baldwin.
Edit: The one by Baldwin being about bisexuality.
Edit2: I find Teleny, which is attributed to Wilde and his circle of friends, to be amusing, but I'm hesitant to recommend it as literature, since it is pretty much well written pornography.
It's amazing how the adds for this site change so quickly - I am now getting all sorts of banners advertising exotic gay cruises - I guess they are probably more fun than Nerdy Online Dating though.
Really, 'cause all I've been getting for weeks is Barnes and Noble, and Blackberry adds?Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
Perhaps you need to vary what you post more, so you get a wider range of banners, no? As it is, every time I stick a Chinese character somewhere I get Confucius Institute adds. Hell, I'll probably get the adds now for just saying that.Quote:
Originally Posted by mortalterror
I do not read modern gay & lesbian romances, because I do not see the point, though I guess there are some authors I'm missing who push boundaries, though I do have one small press title I ordered by mistake which is a girl on girl crush and forgettable.
I am going to say something controversial, but I believe it to be basically true, and that is, the criminalization and oppression of homosexual behavior created the great literature behind it. We would not have the genius of Henry James if the Victorian era did not have its propriety up its tush, nor the scathing wit of Patricia Highsmith, nor Baldwin's anguish (though I have not tackled his work yet) and so on. It was the heterosexual lid on the bottle that created the subversion, and we lose this as gay and lesbian come within so-called normal parameters--although I don't think human sexuality is ever really a tame topic, in literature or anything else.
Surely the standard in the Arts and Sciences we should be looking for is the quality and not the sexuality of the artist. Is Wilde a better writer because he was gay, or Hemmingway because he was not, ( contoversial ):) Do we look at a painting or a book and think about the artist or authors sexualty, and then judge it ? My point being that De Profundis by Wilde is a brilliant literary icon but should not be judged by stereotypes.
You are assuming that we should actually make the valuing of works the prime concern, which I would disagree with - do we actually have a need to establish Wilde as better than Hemingway? That is what I would rather question, instead of discussing sexuality.Quote:
Originally Posted by jocky
Not at all JBI, I thought the thread did have a sexual element but I did not intend to make meaningless comparisons. Why is the valuing of works not the main concern, or is this not the literature thread? Wilde is better than Hemmingway but that is only in my opinion, or is art above individual judgement? I like Poussin, you may not, you may like Claude, but that would show a distinct lack of taste. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
I find this entire thread LOL.
I imagined (very possibly incorrectly) that the OP was looking for something that might be written by or about gay people. What their reason would be for it, I don't know, but I can think of two good ones right off the top of my head.
I think it is right to point out that the writers shouldn't be completely pigeon-holed, and that a race, gender, gay/straight shouldn't be the basis for judging a writer's "greatness" or rank. But there are times when a fact about the writer, or some particular aspect of the writing can become relevant to someone.
Unfortunately, I have no recommendations, just chiming in on this side issue (I'm enjoying the discussion, thanks as always, everyone).
PLATO, SOCRATES GAY?
ALSO, I spent a fair amount of time studying Socrates, Plato, Greek Philosophy in general, as well as a single (awesome!) Greek History class. However, the "corrupting the youth" charge against Socrates never interested me--I got the impression that people didn't know exactly what it meant, with some winking about homosexual stuff, others agreeing but thinking it was part of a greater sense of rebellion/corruption that he represented, and others thinking the homosexual angle was flimsy enough to ignore altogether. So I just didn't care, it floated in the back of my mind.
Anyhow, what would it say about homosexuality in Athens at that time if Socrates was in fact being, at the very least, criticized (in many modern interpretations) for having "corrupted the youth" in some homosexual sense? It would seem that this (on its own...) is, as much as anything, evidence that Athens at large didn't approve of whatever the phrase meant. Perhaps it is an accusation of paedophilia?
I understand that there might be more evidence out there, but I always find this "corrupting the youth" quote popping up when Plato and Socrates are held out as examples of how homosexuality was much more common, socially acceptable, etc. back then in Athens. And the fact that the phrase is used against Socrates by the Senate would seem to make it, at best, evidence that homosexuality was far from universally accepted.