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In The Fellowship of the Ring, when Gandalf fights the Balrog, he defeats him by destroying the bridge, and while the demon is falling, he grabs Gandalf by the leg with his whip and they both fall. We all know what happens after that.
Now, my question is, why did the Balrog fall in the first place? I mean, he DOES have wings...
Perhaps the Balrog hungered for Gandalf's light and power, as Ungoliant did in the Silmarillion. The evil creatures in Tolkiens world always hated the creatures of good and light, so he could not help himself. The Balrog was made to fight elves and wizards and his only purpose was to try destroy any he came across.
The Balrog in general moves slowly. Perhaps in The Two Towers we will see him use his wings towards the end of his fall - but even birds can fall - it takes a little while for them to get their wings going - especially bigger ones.
His wings also may not be for flying, and only for gliding. Like Draconians in the Dragonlance series.
Well, i could admit that maybe the balrog hungered for Gandalfīs power and wanted to take it for his own, you may be right about that JPEggs, but that doesnīt have anything to do with my question.
Regarding the wings only for gliding, i thought about that (since itīs perhaps the most plausible explanation) but it doesnīt make sense either. The draconians were much smaller than the Balrog, and in a manner of speaking, they were "lesser creatures" compared to the balrog, since they were created by Takhisis from metallic dragonsīs eggs and the balrogs were a symbol of evil from the dawn of time (or the first age, i donīt remember excatly how Tolkien refers to that period in the Silmarillion), so their levels of power (including those depending on physical form) arenīt alike in my opinion. Also, from what i recall, Tolkien said that the wings of the demon were so huge that they spread across the entire cavern (which was fairly big), so I assume that they were big enough to hold the demon in the air if it wanted to. Maybe it does takes a while to get its wings going, but it sounds somewhat cheesy to justify the fall with that, and the book says nothing about this. Unluckily, i don`t think the second movie will show the scene of Gandalf and the Balrog falling, but that`s just a hunch. Maybe Tolkien thought of the Balrog as a demon with wings purely for esthetic taste, and then forgot about it, but this is nothing but speculation, and itīs unlikely we ever know it for sure.
Thank you both for the ideas.
i think you've all been playing too many rpg games :)
i don't think that gandalf defeated balrog physically but more by his 'mental' powers.... and besides it all comes down to magic and how it works as a metaphore of our lives.
think about it. why did balrog stop at the bridge in the first place?
MAYBE - he didn't have wings I don't think tolkein ever really said that the balrog had them
Gandalf didn't actually "beat" the balrog, he says so in the second book, after his reappearance. I have, in fact, played rpg games quite often in the past, but not that much though :)
Also: he has wings. I double checked that a long, long time ago. As a a matter of fact, i had this doubt since the first time i read the book, so it's not something i came upon recently because of the movie or anything.
where does it say that - just curious
Ahh, RPGs. I don't know where I'd be without them. Probably Oxford. sigh. Damn you RPGs, you ruined my average!
My copy's in spanish. Shall I tell you the page anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Gamgee
how about the chapter and section etc. - page probably won't help
Well, just saw two towers, and it does show the falling :)
After I saw the first movie, I actually heard people outside saying that it never said the balrog had wings at all. Now, I always pictured it with wings, but it has been a while since I read the book, so I don't know if it was just me adding the wings on in my head, or if it specifically said the balrog had wings. I don't have the book with me, or I'd look it up..
It seems to me though that if the balrog could have used his wings to fly back up, then he simply fell because he really didn't mind falling. It wasnt the fall that defeated the balrog if I remember correctly. Falling into water put out it's fire or whatever, but didn't kill it. Gandalf fought it for some time after that (once again, it has been a while, but I'm pretty sure I'm right). Most likely, the balrog figured that he could just fall and pull Gandalf down with him, and that the fall would do more harm to Gandalf than it would to himself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazycaleb
Thanks for the good news, I'm glad they do show the falling. Regarding your opinion, the facts you describe are indeed right Crazycaleb, but my initial question is still unanswered. Assuming that the Balrog used the strategy you suggest, why would he do that? He falls when Gandalf destroys the bridge. If he wanted to damage Gandalf with a fall, he could instead have kept flying, destroy the part of the bridge where Gandalf was standing on (or simply capture him with his whip, remember the Balor from the AD&D game), and then fly in pursuit of the other party members and then go after Gandalf, since he probably knew where the abyss ended.
As to where does Tolkien say that the balrog had wings, check The Fellowship of the rings, chapter 5, The bridge of Khazad-dum. I believe it's in the next parograph after Gandalf introduces himself to the Balrog as the guardian of the sacred fire.
I hope that helps.
I would say that all the "clutching" and "hewing" might have prevented the Balrog from getting his wings in motion.
I believe that the Balrog is just too big for those wings to support him, or maybe it just didn't have enough room to flap its wings (as mentioned above, its wings were as wide as the cavern).
ALSO-RPGs really don't have much to do with this topic. Have you guys seen those LOTR video games? They completely misrepresent the story.
oh, but, RPGs have everything to do with tolkien, and so the topic as well.
and i don't believe any of you who say you don't play rpgs much :P :P
It seems to me that in the Fellowship, Tolkien makes a jump from the wings as a simily, to the wings as physical form:
"His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings."
then later...
"...it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall."
It seems to me that this might just be a typo, though i doubt that as a good explanation. Perhaps the shadow took shape and became a pair of wings? Also, I don't think that it's unreasonable for us to suppose that the Balrog was too large to fly in the chamber.
I didn't even consider getting them because they looked soooooo fake.
Yes, it refers to them as a shadow first. Wether they're concealed first (and appear as a vague shadow until the balrog spreads them), or a shadow "becomes" the wings, (and this is somewhat off-place) it makes no difference. If they are actual wings, and they don't work (as stupid as that sounds, I already said that in another post), then all the balrogs should go and complain to Melkor (or Tolkien) about this. Come on, a demon with wings that don't work?? Get serious.
On the other hand, if the Balrog materializes a pair of wings out of a shadow, why the hell does he do that if he knows that they are not going to work. To show-off? To scare the fellowship with his wings?
Forgive the sarcasm, but i find it useful sometimes to emphasize a point :) .