Racism

OK this is my first time starting a new thread so please bear with me :)

I know that not all the facts are known about the issue with the harvard professor but the whole thing got me thinking about race relations. Are people too quick to cry 'racism'?

In this particular incident it is hard to believe the man was arrested for being black and easier to belive that he was just being rude to the cops. I live in britain and no matter who you are, if you are rude, aggressive or disorderly towards the police you get arrested.

What im asking is this
Doesnt crying 'racism' over trivial issues like this cause further strains on race relations? I would hate to see a world where police are to afraid to arrest someone because they dont share the same skin colour.

And how will we ever be able to resolve and get past racism if everytime something goes wrong for a member of a minority they blame everyone else instead of taking responsibility for their own lives?

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Originally Posted by ImaginaryFriend

In this particular incident it is hard to believe the man was arrested for being black and easier to belive that he was just being rude to the cops. I live in britain and no matter who you are, if you are rude, aggressive or disorderly towards the police you get arrested.

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I find it very easy to believe. I personally know police officers that use their power to intimidate and badger in an attempt to get people to behave badly. (Edit: to add I also know very fine upstanding police officers)

It's not an easy subject and I don't think one sweeping judgement can be made for all cases.

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Originally Posted by ImaginaryFriend

OK this is my first time starting a new thread so please bear with me :)

I know that not all the facts are known about the issue with the harvard professor but the whole thing got me thinking about race relations. Are people too quick to cry 'racism'?

In this particular incident it is hard to believe the man was arrested for being black and easier to belive that he was just being rude to the cops. I live in britain and no matter who you are, if you are rude, aggressive or disorderly towards the police you get arrested.

What im asking is this
Doesnt crying 'racism' over trivial issues like this cause further strains on race relations? I would hate to see a world where police are to afraid to arrest someone because they dont share the same skin colour.

And how will we ever be able to resolve and get past racism if everytime something goes wrong for a member of a minority they blame everyone else instead of taking responsibility for their own lives?

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I don't know the incident to which you refer but your post will inevitably generate a wealth of replies from self-righteous head-in-the-sand wishful non-thinkers who have been brought up in the ultra-liberal sixties and beyond.
As somebody who is English you should be aware that the greatest recruitment officers for the British National Party, who have recently won seats in the European Parliament, are those whose stupidity has created and are perpetuating the very sitaution that you are now beginning to question.

From what I know of the story, the whole thing was pretty silly. The professor contacted the Harvard police to vouch for his identity and his home ownership, but the campus cops had to cede jurisdiction to the city police, who apparently made the arrest because the old scholar became annoyed.

My ex is a cop though, and he said if the police ask you to step outside, it is best not to argue.

Before people rush to judgement I believe the news mis-reported this story initially. He was not arrested for breaking into his own home. He was arrested for disorderly conducted - he was verbally berating the police when then simply asked for identification. The police had twice asked him to stop with the insults and just show identification, and he just carried on. And while the main cop at the scene was white, along side him were a hispanic officer and a black officer. All the cops have denounced Gates' conduct. This is not a case of racial profiling, but of a disorderly person that refuse to cooperate.

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Originally Posted by Jozanny

From what I know of the story, the whole thing was pretty silly. The professor contacted the Harvard police to vouch for his identity and his home ownership, but the campus cops had to cede jurisdiction to the city police, who apparently made the arrest because the old scholar became annoyed.

My ex is a cop though, and he said if the police ask you to step outside, it is best not to argue.

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I couldn't agree more, I have only ever been stopped twice by the police, once in London and again in Paris. On both occasions I co-operated fully with their questions. As far as I'm concerned, they are the thin blue line between a diminishing order and total anarchy.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Before people rush to judgement I believe the news mis-reported this story initially. He was not arrested for breaking into his own home. He was arrested for disorderly conducted - he was verbally berating the police when then simply asked for identification. The police had twice asked him to stop with the insults and just show identification, and he just carried on. And while the main cop at the scene was white, along side him were a hispanic officer and a black officer. All the cops have denounced Gates' conduct. This is not a case of racial profiling, but of a disorderly person that refuse to cooperate.

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Exactly! if he had just done as he was told there would be no problem as it just sounds more like a personality clash than anything else.

So why is he claiming racism? and why are people like obama jumping on the bandwagon (i expected it from al sharpton but not him)?

Does saying this was racist, when it obviously was not, just make a mockery of the fight agaisnt racism and perhaps even set it back?

This a damn shame, and the whole thing is going to be no more than a typical "he said/he said" dogfight where people will choose to believe one side or the other.

Are the cops lying each other up to cover for a gross mistake?

Did the Prof. come over the smart-arse with the cops and get himself righteously booked?

Was the Prof. right to be angry that cops walked straight into his own house without so much as knocking at the door?

I have to confess that I would not be best pleased at cops wandering into my house, whether or not some idiot neighbour had called the cops. I'd also hope my neighbours would recognise me breaking in, so maybe there's a lesson there as well.

Great fuel for both sides of the debate. If you have a lead suit and bulletproof vest, check out some of the racist sites for a good laugh. (Assuming you have strong stomachs)

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Originally Posted by ImaginaryFriend

So why is he claiming racism? and why are people like obama jumping on the bandwagon (i expected it from al sharpton but not him)?

Does saying this was racist, when it obviously was not, just make a mockery of the fight agaisnt racism and perhaps even set it back?

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The real racist in all this is Mr. Gates. He was the one being race conscious. The police were doing their duty. He automatically jumped to a racial conclusion. He automatically decided that any scrutiny had as a absolute given be racially motivated.

I have said it many times, do not trust what the media puts out. In every case where I have been intimately knowledgable of a news story facts (either because it was a neighborhood event or related to my line of work) there are incredible mistakes in every news article. There is a reason that news is not consider solid history.

For the ramifications of this, since our President appears to have put his foot in his mouth, you can read through this:

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Obama stirs racial passions in Harvard case

By Jason Szep
BOSTON (Reuters) - President Barack Obama plunged his presidency into a charged racial debate and set off a firestorm in one of America's most liberal bastions by siding with a black Harvard scholar who accuses police of racism.

Saying he was unaware of "all the facts" but that police in Cambridge, Massachusetts, "acted stupidly" in their arrest of Henry Louis Gates, Obama whipped up emotions on both sides of an issue that threatens to open old wounds in America.

His comments marked his biggest foray into the hot-button issue of race since taking office in January, and underline how racial issues remain very much alive despite advances embodied by his election as the first black U.S. president.

"Unfortunately, the racial divide is still there. It's still very raw. I think he was trying to let the majority of non-minority Americans have a sense of what it is like to a black or Latino," said Boston University professor of politics Thomas Whalen.

But many in Massachusetts said he crossed a line by passing judgment on police while acknowledging he did not have all the facts. Online polls in Massachusetts show strong support for the white arresting officer. A police union and his department's chief also came out strongly in his defense.

"Based on what I have seen and heard from the other officers, he maintained a professional decorum during the course of the entire situation and conducted himself in a professional manner," Cambridge Police Department Commissioner Robert Haas told a news conference.

Obama's comment stunned the city's policemen, Haas added. "They were very much deflated." He said he has appointed a panel to review Gates' arrest.

Others questioned whether Obama should have so strongly backed Gates, a friend, over the police without knowing fully what took place.
[Snip]

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http://www.reuters.com/article/topNe...56M5NM20090723

I've also said this. Anyone who thinks they understand the workings of another country by simply reading their newspapers and watching their movies is seriously deluding themselves.

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

This a damn shame, and the whole thing is going to be no more than a typical "he said/he said" dogfight where people will choose to believe one side or the other.

Are the cops lying each other up to cover for a gross mistake?

Did the Prof. come over the smart-arse with the cops and get himself righteously booked?

Was the Prof. right to be angry that cops walked straight into his own house without so much as knocking at the door?

I have to confess that I would not be best pleased at cops wandering into my house, whether or not some idiot neighbour had called the cops. I'd also hope my neighbours would recognise me breaking in, so maybe there's a lesson there as well.

Great fuel for both sides of the debate. If you have a lead suit and bulletproof vest, check out some of the racist sites for a good laugh. (Assuming you have strong stomachs)

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I don't think so. Their was a substantial part of the neighborhood that were witnesses. As far as I can tell, the cops have been substantiated.

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Originally Posted by Brian Bean

I couldn't agree more, I have only ever been stopped twice by the police, once in London and again in Paris. On both occasions I co-operated fully with their questions. As far as I'm concerned, they are the thin blue line between a diminishing order and total anarchy.

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Quite right Brian. The officers at the home were of mixed race:

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Black officer at scholar's home supports arrest

CAMBRIDGE, Mass. – A black police officer who was at Henry Louis Gates Jr.'s home when the black Harvard scholar was arrested says he fully supports how his white fellow officer handled the situation.

Sgt. Leon Lashley says Gates was probably tired and surprised when Sgt. James Crowley demanded identification from him as officers investigated a report of a burglary. Lashley says Gates' reaction to Crowley was "a little bit stranger than it should have been."

Asked if Gates should have been arrested, Lashley said supported Crowley "100 percent."

Gates has said he was the victim of racial profiling.

President Barack Obama says the officers "acted stupidly." Lashley called Obama's remark "unfortunate" and said he should be allowed to take it back.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

CAMBRIDGE, Mass. (AP) — A multiracial group of police officers on Friday stood with the white officer who arrested a prominent black Harvard scholar and asked President Barack Obama and Gov. Deval Patrick to apologize for comments the union leaders called insulting.
[Snip]

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090724/...Fja29mZmljZXI-

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I don't think so. Their was a substantial part of the neighborhood that were witnesses. As far as I can tell, the cops have been substantiated.

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How is that possible given that the main interaction occurred inside the house?

Were other people within earshot of what was said?

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Originally Posted by Virgil

The real racist in all this is Mr. Gates. He was the one being race conscious. The police were doing their duty. He automatically jumped to a racial conclusion. He automatically decided that any scrutiny had as a absolute given be racially motivated.

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I completely agree with you on that and have often thought that sometimes racism is in the eyes of the beholder as it were.

As to the neighbour being 'an idiot', atheist, i only wish my neighbours were so civically minded enough to care if someone were breaking into my home. I would probably thank them even if it was all a mistake and would certainly have seen the funny side of the situation. I wouldnt have let the situation get to the stage where i am being arrested.

And on a lighter note, could i claim they only did it because my great-great-grandfather was jewish thus making me a minority?

The sooner we all just treat people like people and stop trying to sort everyone by race, religion, etc then maybe we will stop seeing these kinds of problems.

The bottom line does not have to do with the particular incident.
As soon as people cry "racism," a bit more common sense is lost to a gaping black hole which has appeared in modern society. I'm not saying we're past hate crimes, and extreme levels of racism, but racial tolerance is gaining much ground.
And let's face it-- everyone's a little bit racist. No one has gone a lifetime without muttering under their breath a racist comment about someone. "D*** *insert nationality* cut me off." People are biased against people who are different from themselves. Even fans of different teams are made into enemies, or thought of as inferior.
It's a complex we all have, that we ourselves are superior to everyone else.
Regardless, extreme racism is becoming rare. Police don't arrest people just for being black. White drivers don't just get in fender-benders with Asians.
And one person is not ever indicative of an entire race.
Furthermore, a majority of people are aware of that, and so screaming racism is obsolete.

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I've also said this. Anyone who thinks they understand the workings of another country by simply reading their newspapers and watching their movies is seriously deluding themselves

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have said it many times, do not trust what the media puts out.

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Thx VIRGIL
But why to lie on ourselves , RACISM existed in the history of all nations and still existing in a variable degree. Marwa Alsharbini is a clear case .Crying racism should NOT be an occasion to open wounds but to seek solutions that protect human diginity all over the world.

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

How is that possible given that the main interaction occurred inside the house?

Were other people within earshot of what was said?

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The dispute was taken outside.

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Originally Posted by caddy_caddy

Thx VIRGIL
But why to lie on ourselves , RACISM existed in the history of all nations and still existing in a variable degree. Marwa Alsharbini is a clear case .Crying racism should NOT be an occasion to open wounds but to seek solutions that protect human diginity all over the world.

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Anyone looking at American racial discussions from outside the country have this notion that blacks are kept down and racism is rampant. The fact is there is very little real racism any more. Any dispute between people of different races automatically gets blown up into a racial incidence. Yes obviously racism existed and still does in people's hearts. But institutionalized racism does not exist and if anything people give African-Americans the benfit of the doubt. This professor who specialized in Black Studies obviously has a chip on his shoulder. His very specialization makes him see racism where there isn't any. Let's be honest and maybe the color of one's skin will truely be insignificant. But it seems to me that the race consciousness comes from people who claim violations at every turn.

And just to point the absurdity out. We have a black President, we have the most popular media personin the country as black, Opra, we have the most widely sold musician as black, Michael Jackson, we have top paid actors such as Denzel Washington and Balley Berry, we have CEOs and other executives. Claiming institutionalized racism in today's society is a crock.

Now that I am au fait with the circumstances surrounding this incident, I have arrived home to find that Obama's knee jerk reaction has caused him to mollify his original claim of implied racial impropiety on the part of the police involved.

http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/article.as...ntid=148766552

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Originally Posted by Brian Bean

Now that I am au fait with the circumstances surrounding this incident, I have arrived home to find that Obama's knee jerk reaction has caused him to mollify his original claim of implied racial impropiety on the part of the police involved.

http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/article.as...ntid=148766552

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Yes I heard it. It was as close to an apology without apologizing. What gets me is he can go all over the world apologising for all sorts of bull **** and he can't come out with a decent apology to our own police officers.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Yes I heard it. It was as close to an apology without apologizing. What gets me is he can go all over the world apologising for all sorts of bull **** and he can't come out with a decent apology to our own police officers.

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I am pretty sure that if all of the police officers involved had been black, nothing would have been heard of the matter.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Anyone looking at American racial discussions from outside the country have this notion that blacks are kept down and racism is rampant. The fact is there is very little real racism any more. Any dispute between people of different races automatically gets blown up into a racial incidence. Yes obviously racism existed and still does in people's hearts. But institutionalized racism does not exist and if anything people give African-Americans the benfit of the doubt. This professor who specialized in Black Studies obviously has a chip on his shoulder. His very specialization makes him see racism where there isn't any. Let's be honest and maybe the color of one's skin will truely be insignificant. But it seems to me that the race consciousness comes from people who claim violations at every turn.

And just to point the absurdity out. We have a black President, we have the most popular media personin the country as black, Opra, we have the most widely sold musician as black, Michael Jackson, we have top paid actors such as Denzel Washington and Balley Berry, we have CEOs and other executives. Claiming institutionalized racism in today's society is a crock.

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Bull****. A coworker asked me if racist still exists and when I told him yes and started to tell him my stories he said it didn't count. Now why wouldn't my experiences count? If you've never experienced it you will never understand. I live in a place where it very much still exists, I've seen it as an outsider and I've seen it done to me.

Institutional racism certainly doesn't exist, to an extent. There can be company mandates, there can be equal opportunity programs but you can't tell me on an individual basis racism doesn't exist. I had to tell a boss to stop telling me racial jokes, twice. You can't tell me he doesn't have a bias against that group that can affect his decision making process, nor can you tell me my boss is the only one. In this day an age it's the little things that hurt the most - being followed around a store, snide comments, odd looks. Now I know every little slight or percieved slight may not be racial motivated but I can put you in touch with a lot of people who have had similar blatant racial issues that cannot be defended on any level.

However, I also do admit that racism can be seen where none exists, and that's why I have previously stated that one can't make sweeping judgements.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

But institutionalized racism does not exist and if anything people give African-Americans the benfit of the doubt.

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Institutional racism includes the media misrepresentation of certain racialized groups. During the media coverage of Hurricane Katrina, a Black individual is described as looting food supplies, while a white couple is described as finding food supplies.

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Originally Posted by AmericanEagle

Institutional racism includes the media misrepresentation of certain racialized groups. During the media coverage of Hurricane Katrina, a Black individual is described as looting food supplies, while a white couple is described as finding food supplies.

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First of all you don't say whether it was the very same media person making two separate analysis. I don't think in general the media is anywhere near racist. If anything it overwhelmingly accomodates the view of white racial bias. As it erroneously did in this case.

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Originally Posted by papayahed

Bull****. A coworker asked me if racist still exists and when I told him yes and started to tell him my stories he said it didn't count. Now why wouldn't my experiences count? If you've never experienced it you will never understand. I live in a place where it very much still exists, I've seen it as an outsider and I've seen it done to me.

Institutional racism certainly doesn't exist, to an extent. There can be company mandates, there can be equal opportunity programs but you can't tell me on an individual basis racism doesn't exist. I had to tell a boss to stop telling me racial jokes, twice. You can't tell me he doesn't have a bias against that group that can affect his decision making process, nor can you tell me my boss is the only one. In this day an age it's the little things that hurt the most - being followed around a store, snide comments, odd looks. Now I know every little slight or percieved slight may not be racial motivated but I can put you in touch with a lot of people who have had similar blatant racial issues that cannot be defended on any level.

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I hear italian jokes (I happen to be of Italian descent and some of them are pretty insulting), I hear Jewish jokes, I hear muslim jokes, I hear Catholic jokes, I hear polish jokes, I hear Irish jokes, I hear asian jokes, I hear American Indian jokes, I hear asian Indian jokes, I hear hispanic jokes, I hear redneck jokes, I hear black jokes. I hear all jokes. I hear women jokes, I hear men jokes, I hear gay jokes, I hear blonde jokes. So what?

We agree. There is no institutionalized racism. The Professor Gates of the world , the Jesse jacksons of the world, the Al Sharptons of the world, the Rev Wrights of the world perpetuate a victumization mentality that has done more harm to African Americans because everything that happens for the negative is blamed as some racist action. Every one of those negative things happen to white people as well. If there is a slight bias to thinking blacks commit crimes, well just look at the ratio of crimes committed by blacks. It's perfectly rational (though unfair) to jump to that conclusion. But it does not mean they are being racist.

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However, I also do admit that racism can be seen where none exists, and that's why I have previously stated that one can't make sweeping judgements.

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There are people with hate in their heart, whether it's hatred of blacks, or of other religions, or of northerners in the south or southerners in the north. There are people that think in that kind of mentality. Professor Gates obviously thinks in that kind of mentality. I doubt that will ever change. But that does not mean there is institutionalized racism. Among the highest earning ethnic groups in this country happen to be asian and muslim. If institutionalized racism existed, I doubt either of those groups would be doing so well.

I leave you with the words of Thomas Sowell, one of the most brilliant (in my opinion) thinker in the US. "If Jews had waited for the end of anti-semetism to make it in this country, they would still be waiting." Just ponder that for a while.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I hear italian jokes (I happen to be of Italian descent and some of them are pretty insulting), I hear Jewish jokes, I hear muslim jokes, I hear Catholic jokes, I hear polish jokes, I hear Irish jokes, I hear asian jokes, I hear American Indian jokes, I hear asian Indian jokes, I hear hispanic jokes, I hear redneck jokes, I hear black jokes. I hear all jokes. I hear women jokes, I hear men jokes, I hear gay jokes, I hear blonde jokes. So what?

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Ask your HR department about that. I am speaking of highly offensive derogatory jokes, My boss would have been fired had I gone to HR.

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We agree. There is no institutionalized racism. The Professor Gates of the world , the Jesse jacksons of the world, the Al Sharptons of the world, the Rev Wrights of the world perpetuate a victumization mentality that has done more harm to African Americans because everything that happens for the negative is blamed as some racist action. Every one of those negative things happen to white people as well. If there is a slight bias to thinking blacks commit crimes, well just look at the ratio of crimes committed by blacks. It's perfectly rational (though unfair) to jump to that conclusion. But it does not mean they are being racist.

There are people with hate in their heart, whether it's hatred of blacks, or of other religions, or of northerners in the south or southerners in the north. There are people that think in that kind of mentality. Professor Gates obviously thinks in that kind of mentality. I doubt that will ever change. But that does not mean there is institutionalized racism. Among the highest earning ethnic groups in this country happen to be asian and muslim. If institutionalized racism existed, I doubt either of those groups would be doing so well.

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Please read what I said again. I said racism exists, I have said that I have experienced it personally and as a bystander. It seems like you are trying to negate what I am saying because it doesn't fit your view of the world. It's way easier to take the stance that it doesn't exist rather then acknowledge that as a society we still have issues.

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I leave you with the words of Thomas Sowell, one of the most brilliant (in my opinion) thinker in the US. "If Jews had waited for the end of anti-semetism to make it in this country, they would still be waiting." Just ponder that for a while

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No where have I said that racism is an excuse for anything. Why you would lump Dr. Gates in with the Rev. Wrights on that one incident? Being proud of your heritage and trying to advance and be a role model for other African Americans doesn't mean "perpetuate a victumization mentality" Dr. Gates has a PhD from Cambridge University does that sound like someone who is waiting for racism to end?

I'm afraid this will turn into a "no it doesn't" - "yes it does" arguement. I have my experiences, you have yours.

Here's an interesting question - a classmate of mine pushed the argument to me, that when someone is rich, racism and race divisions no longer exist - he argued that Rich people, this is the really rich, generally don't look toward the race of someone, but rather their wallet, and that on the top, whatever the race, everything comes down to business, rather than "sociological" issues.

Anyone think that an interesting question?

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Originally Posted by JBI

Here's an interesting question - a classmate of mine pushed the argument to me, that when someone is rich, racism and race divisions no longer exist - he argued that Rich people, this is the really rich, generally don't look toward the race of someone, but rather their wallet, and that on the top, whatever the race, everything comes down to business, rather than "sociological" issues.

Anyone think that an interesting question?

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I've known more than one rich (not sure what we consider a definition of rich) person who let out racial views. I don't think it means anything. I can see how being rich makes one look down on others and justify it with race.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I've known more than one rich (not sure what we consider a definition of rich) person who let out racial views. I don't think it means anything. I can see how being rich makes one look down on others and justify it with race.

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No, I mean toward other rich people, like would a rich American think himself better than a slightly richer Hong Konger? does that sort of division exist, or is there a sort of mutual respect attached to everyone with money by the rich?

I have a feeling, for instance, a lot of poor people justify their lack of success in racist banter, but how would that form itself in someone who essentially has nothing to gain by being racist, and nothing truly to complain about, relative to his own status in the world? .

Virgil, I live in a building and a city that is majority A.A., and being a white cripple in this environment isn't easy, and I experience backlash bias against me as much as I am biased against urban black culture--and yes, I am biased--not proud of it but without deliberately denigrating anyone, I admit it. 20 plus odd years in this city has made me loathe it, it's poverty, poor health, violence, but with this disclosed, I think you protest a bit much. I esteem PhD's, minority or otherwise, and I can see why Gates would react unpleasantly. I'd react unpleasantly if the Philadelphia police knocked on my public housing door demanding identification, and unlike Gates, I am poor, paranoid, and fear HUD like the devil come home to roost. Gates has to lose his burr up the butt, and so do the MA police.

But the old man shouldn't have been arrested. It was, indeed, stupid.

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Originally Posted by JBI

No, I mean toward other rich people, like would a rich American think himself better than a slightly richer Hong Konger? does that sort of division exist, or is there a sort of mutual respect attached to everyone with money by the rich?

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I have no idea.

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I have a feeling, for instance, a lot of poor people justify their lack of success in racist banter, but how would that form itself in someone who essentially has nothing to gain by being racist, and nothing truly to complain about, relative to his own status in the world? .

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I know of no one that justifies anything in terms of genetic racial abilities. Race comes into play perhaps in terms of cultural and sub-cultural characteristics.

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Originally Posted by Jozanny

Virgil, I live in a building and a city that is majority A.A., and being a white cripple in this environment isn't easy, and I experience backlash bias against me as much as I am biased against urban black culture--and yes, I am biased--not proud of it but without deliberately denigrating anyone, I admit it. 20 plus odd years in this city has made me loathe it, it's poverty, poor health, violence, but with this disclosed, I think you protest a bit much. I esteem PhD's, minority or otherwise, and I can see why Gates would react unpleasantly. I'd react unpleasantly if the Philadelphia police knocked on my public housing door demanding identification, and unlike Gates, I am poor, paranoid, and fear HUD like the devil come home to roost. Gates has to lose his burr up the butt, and so do the MA police.

But the old man shouldn't have been arrested. It was, indeed, stupid.

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Feelings toward groups is not the same thing as racism. I doubt you really think that all blacks are criminals. I don't know if you know the facts of the Gates incident. He was not arrested for breaking into his house. He was arrested for the verbal tirade he went off on after they asked for identification. He was obviously beligerant and the police asked him to stop with the insults on two occaisions. The police had no idea he owned that house and no one hsa a right to be so beligerant when police are conducting an investigation. They had a call that someone was breaking into that house. When police ask me for something I accomodate.

To say that institutionalized racism does not exist is to ignore the foundation on which Canada and the United States was built. European colonists forcibly took Native lands, actively took measures to systematically annihilate the Native populations (smallpox blankets, deliberate slaughtering of their main food source: the buffalo, and just simply murdering them). Cultural genocide also took place through residential schools.

It is this history of colonialism and genocide that form the basis of how Native peoples are treated. Issues that affect Native populations are often ignored by the government, and there has yet to be an apology for the broken treaties.

In Canada, there are hundreds of missing Native women, and these cases go unnoticed by most Canadians because mainstream news outlets do not pick up the story. If these had been white women, the media would have been all over it.

The Canadian government continues to marginalize Native peoples to this day. In 2008, Prime Minister Stephen Harper issued an apology for Canada's role in the creation of residential schools. However, he failed to mention that the Canadian government committed an act of genocide. According to the UN Genocide Convention, "causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group," and "forcibly transferring children of the group to another group," constitutes an act of genocide. Thus, the Canadian government refuses to fully acknowledge and take responsibility for their horrendous treatment of Natives, and this lack of accountability continues to this day. For example, Native communities suffer from a shortage of clean drinking water (Kashechewan water crisis in 2005). Many Native reserves continue to be under boil-water advisories. Does this happen in communities where whites are the majority? Probably not.

The lack of acknowledgement of the genocide of Native populations around the world is also a form of institutional racism. When one mentions the word 'genocide,' the first thing that pops to mind is the Holocaust. While I'm not diminishing the horrific events that occurred during the Nazi regime, why is it that the Holocaust is privileged over other genocides? There were more victims of Native genocide than in the Holocaust, and the motives were the same.

The Canadian government also fails to adequately provide money for Native students' post-secondary tuition. This isn't free money by any means because all of these monies have been pre-paid when the treaties were made. Thus, the Canadian government refuses to give money to Natives that is rightly theirs.

I realize that most of my examples are Canadian because that is where I live, but I'm sure that similar injustices occur in other parts of the world, and that institutional racism exists.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I have no idea.


I know of no one that justifies anything in terms of genetic racial abilities. Race comes into play perhaps in terms of cultural and sub-cultural characteristics.

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Oh, sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear - I meant in the sense that "I got laid off today because all the jobs are going to them Chinese", or "the black people are sucking all the money out of the economy, and now I lost my job", or "it's because of the Jews that we lost the war."

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Originally Posted by AmericanEagle

To say that institutionalized racism does not exist is to ignore the foundation on which Canada and the United States was built. European colonists forcibly took Native lands, actively took measures to systematically annihilate the Native populations (smallpox blankets, deliberate slaughtering of their main food source: the buffalo, and just simply murdering them). Cultural genocide also took place through residential schools.

It is this history of colonialism and genocide that form the basis of how Native peoples are treated. Issues that affect Native populations are often ignored by the government, and there has yet to be an apology for the broken treaties.

In Canada, there are hundreds of missing Native women, and these cases go unnoticed by most Canadians because mainstream news outlets do not pick up the story. If these had been white women, the media would have been all over it.

The Canadian government continues to marginalize Native peoples to this day. In 2008, Prime Minister Stephen Harper issued an apology for Canada's role in the creation of residential schools. However, he failed to mention that the Canadian government committed an act of genocide. According to the UN Genocide Convention, "causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group," and "forcibly transferring children of the group to another group," constitutes an act of genocide. Thus, the Canadian government refuses to fully acknowledge and take responsibility for their horrendous treatment of Natives, and this lack of accountability continues to this day. For example, Native communities suffer from a shortage of clean drinking water (Kashechewan water crisis in 2005). Many Native reserves continue to be under boil-water advisories. Does this happen in communities where whites are the majority? Probably not.

The lack of acknowledgement of the genocide of Native populations around the world is also a form of institutional racism. When one mentions the word 'genocide,' the first thing that pops to mind is the Holocaust. While I'm not diminishing the horrific events that occurred during the Nazi regime, why is it that the Holocaust is privileged over other genocides? There were more victims of Native genocide than in the Holocaust, and the motives were the same.

The Canadian government also fails to adequately provide money for Native students' post-secondary tuition. This isn't free money by any means because all of these monies have been pre-paid when the treaties were made. Thus, the Canadian government refuses to give money to Natives that is rightly theirs.

I realize that most of my examples are Canadian because that is where I live, but I'm sure that similar injustices occur in other parts of the world, and that institutional racism exists.

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There weren't more victims in this "native genocide" but that defeats the point (it wasn't an act of aggression that killed most of the people in these parts, but the exchange of diseases, which, for instance, wiped off literally the entire native population of Newfoundland).

The sort of pastoral picture you try to paint, though in a sense true, isn't exactly true either - for instance, if you read Samuel Hearne's travel log, you will note that these poor people had no problem going to massacre an Inuit (recorded as Esquimaux) encampment - racist and generational feuding exists even amongst these societies, and it was perhaps the introduction of Westerners that really made them destructive - was it not Champlain, for instance, who rode with the Hurons and set off a couple hundred years of hostility in the Quebec region? Of course, the White men weren't better, but to limit things to merely a colonial problem is to miss much of the point.

The residential school system is unjustifiable, and there are many social issues still rooted in it today - notably the fact that they gave these kids to clergymen, which everyone knows is a bad idea (and that isn't a jab, testimony has showed that these kids were severely sexually abused), but, in a sense, there are other factors to consider, for instance, Native Canadians don't pay many forms of tax, and don't pay tuition to schools.

Not that I am defending policy - I think the quality of life on reserves is pretty bleak, with rampant addiction and poor housing, but I am unsure whether to justify that as a "racist" program today, or as a generational problem that hasn't righted itself yet. There is certainly more nuance there.


That being said, I wouldn't doubt that many cops in Canada are racist - the ones in Toronto I would think are perhaps more tolerant, given that enough people on the force are of mixed descent, but I think the general feeling about cops is they are essentially the schoolyard bully with a gun and taser, and there is a reason why people do not like them, whereas people generally regard firefighters, for instance, as civil heroes.


Who knows though - my general view is that Canada is really two countries - based on the diversification of the population centre - people in Vancouver, I would think, are probably more tolerant than people in rural Alberta, simply because Vancouver is a diversified city, whereas in rural Alberta generally all the exposure to non-white, non-native Canadian perspectives are limited to press, or minimal exposure (generally these townships tend to have one Chinese restaurant, for instance, which sells Americanized food of low quality).

In truth though, political "correctness", or non-racism, is essentially a 70s or 80s phenomenon, which still hasn't taken hold. Small steps come, but they come slowly, because it's a generational problem that is very hard to remedy, and has a long history.

I think the best counter here would be the high immigration rate, which essentially makes people in major population centres diversified, and therefore less militantly racist, as in these places, everyone is something really (go to Universities like University of Toronto, for instance, and you notice that being racist is essentially impossible without a giant backlash, as when everyone is a minority, everyone generally feels a sympathy with other minorities, and isn't afraid to stand up for minority rights).

Who knows though, there is a huge anti-French sentiment, and anti-Anglophone sentiment from the Francophones, so perhaps that constitutes a form of generational anxiety - nothing that has been to violent or militant in recent years, but something which significantly bends policy - I think though, the country is coming to the point where the government is functioning in less of an ideological manner, and more in a pragmatic manner, with less emphasis put on the "leadership" than on the accounting - I only hope that we reach the point where the government functions only as an accountant, but I doubt that will come anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by JBI

Not that I am defending policy - I think the quality of life on reserves is pretty bleak, with rampant addiction and poor housing, but I am unsure whether to justify that as a "racist" program today, or as a generational problem that hasn't righted itself yet. There is certainly more nuance there.

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The Ontario Finance Minister stated that the Canadian government should cut Native health funding and focus instead on "real people in real towns." Although he has apologized for that comment, I think that it sums up most politicians' views on Native peoples.

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Originally Posted by AmericanEagle

The Ontario Finance Minister stated that the Canadian government should cut Native health funding and focus instead on "real people in real towns." Although he has apologized for that comment, I think that it sums up most politicians' views on Native peoples.

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The fact that he had to apologize says differently.

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Originally Posted by JBI

for instance, Native Canadians don't pay many forms of tax, and don't pay tuition to schools.

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You're correct about the taxes, but Natives do not receive free tuition. Native students who attend school are charged tuition, which is paid through the money held in trust by the government. These monies were the result of treaty and monetary settlements that were made. The government then allocates this money to Native bands. Thus, it is Native money. Besides, the government doesn't allocate enough money for the Native bands, so some students may not even receive any of this money.

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Originally Posted by JBI

The fact that he had to apologize says differently.

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Flaherty was running for party leadership at this time. He only apologized after Opposition parties called for his resignation. I don't want to get too political, but it seems that he apologized because he didn't want bad publicity.

I was going to participate in this, but then I decided I better not.

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Originally Posted by kratsayra

I was going to participate in this, but then I decided I better not.

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Why not? This sub-forum was set up in order that serious discussion could take place. There is no reason why potential contributors shouldn't be able to express an opinion, providing they don't resort to personal abuse and foul language or reduce the discussion to political point scoring.

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Originally Posted by Brian Bean

I couldn't agree more, I have only ever been stopped twice by the police, once in London and again in Paris. On both occasions I co-operated fully with their questions. As far as I'm concerned, they are the thin blue line between a diminishing order and total anarchy.

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You seem to have an inordinate amount of faith in the Police.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HECMVdl-9SQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hh0iN...eature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6THfDGy1hN4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK_-U...eature=related

Disgraceful. The police think they are above the law.

Why not? This sub-forum was set up in order that serious discussion could take place. There is no reason why potential contributors shouldn't be able to express an opinion, providing they don't resort to personal abuse and foul language or reduce the discussion to political point scoring.

Interesting, as a large amount of your posts start out with a definite political viewpoint, which leave no doubts as to your feelings on the (paraphrasing) liberal, head-in-the-sand, left-leaning, erosion of values etc. that is post-war Britain. You never fail to get a dig in showing your beliefs. I don't know how you've escaped the notice of mods until now, but perhaps because some people haven't risen to responding to your statements.

i hate to be one of these people who says this americaneagle but why should a modern government have to pay to help natives when they should move with the times and join society. get over the past. think about it, when has bringing up the holocaust (which by the way resulteed in the deaths of millions of slavs, blacks, catholics, muslims and dissenters not only jews) ever been positive to a situation or argument. it is the last reort to bring it up when an argument is being lost.

so far virgil you have made me think about a lot of issues and i see most of your points so thank you.

sniping at others will not help the situation wessexgirl. i realise that this is a touchy issue but i hope we can all take a minute to calm down and rein in the posts to be about the original issue.

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Originally Posted by wessexgirl

You seem to have an inordinate amount of faith in the Police.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HECMVdl-9SQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hh0iN...eature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6THfDGy1hN4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK_-U...eature=related

Disgraceful. The police think they are above the law.

Why not? This sub-forum was set up in order that serious discussion could take place. There is no reason why potential contributors shouldn't be able to express an opinion, providing they don't resort to personal abuse and foul language or reduce the discussion to political point scoring.

Interesting, as a large amount of your posts start out with a definite political viewpoint, which leave no doubts as to your feelings on the (paraphrasing) liberal, head-in-the-sand, left-leaning, erosion of values etc. that is post-war Britain. You never fail to get a dig in showing your beliefs. I don't know how you've escaped the notice of mods until now, but perhaps because some people haven't risen to responding to your statements.

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Well I haven't noticed yourself being slow off the mark in responding to some of my posts. What makes you think that the liberal/left are immune to criticism in a general rather than personal sense. I don't support any of the current crop of Westminster politicians, whatever their party, so I am not trying to score political points.
As for the videos, the first two show the police trying to contain a mob and the third incident was caused by a woman breaking the law with regard to an illegal film and her refusal to hand over the mobile phone containing it. The forth incident was enacted in the immediate aftermath of the London bombings when the police were in a high state of tension in trying to prevent another. As I said, the police are the thin blue line between a diminishing order and total anarchy. Apart from some rotten apples who have thrown in their lot with criminals, I am and always will be a very strong supporter of the police.

in the first video he was walking into the middle of a heated situation. not his fault but the police are not robots, they have emotions and sometimes make a bad call. we cant judge all cops on that.

in the second video she was told SEVERAL times that what she had done was illegal but refused to just co operate and let them see what she had filmed. no wonder the police got p****d off with her i would have too.

in the third vdieo she is screaming and swearing in the officers face so he pushes her back. after that instead of walking away like an adult she continues to do that and actually puts her hand on him. he may have used a little too much force but she has just as much responsibility for her injuries (a bruise as i remember).

and obviously the police were at fault in the fourth video ( and lied and tried to cover it up) but think of how many good officers are out there. its unfair to tar them all with the same brush.

saying that what did any of those videos have to do with the piont of this thread?

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Anyone looking at American racial discussions from outside the country have this notion that blacks are kept down and racism is rampant. The fact is there is very little real racism any more. Any dispute between people of different races automatically gets blown up into a racial incidence. Yes obviously racism existed and still does in people's hearts. But institutionalized racism does not exist and if anything people give African-Americans the benfit of the doubt. This professor who specialized in Black Studies obviously has a chip on his shoulder.
This is the first time I know there is sth called Black Studies.
His very specialization makes him see racism where there isn't any. Let's be honest and maybe the color of one's skin will truely be insignificant. But it seems to me that the race consciousness comes from people who claim violations at every turn.

And just to point the absurdity out. We have a black President, we have the most popular media personin the country as black, Opra, we have the most widely sold musician as black, Michael Jackson, we have top paid actors such as Denzel Washington and Balley Berry, we have CEOs and other executives. Claiming institutionalized racism in today's society is a crock.

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Who said so??! I think it is a good lesson for all nations to overcome their past
and have a new beginning. It is a real challenge .Yes obviously racism existed and still does in people's hearts. But institutionalized racism does not exist and if anything people give African-Americans the benfit of the doubt

Well ,then you agree that it still exists in the hearts although I don't know how we can see what belies within the hearts of others.

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But it seems to me that the race consciousness comes from people who claim violations at every turn

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I completely agree with you. We cannot cry racism everytime we face a problem or at any debate .
You mentioned the RACIAL CONSCIOUSNESS ;I think people who faces racism cannot get rid of it .it is indeed a big problem.For me
the most important question is how can we change this consciousness???

Is it not strange that for those of white skin that have lived, and been prepared to mix, in many "black" African states e.g Nigeria, Ghana, Cameroons, Uganda, there are very few instances of reverse discrimination.
Are the values relating to race in these countries more mature & balanced?

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Originally Posted by JBI

Oh, sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear - I meant in the sense that "I got laid off today because all the jobs are going to them Chinese", or "the black people are sucking all the money out of the economy, and now I lost my job", or "it's because of the Jews that we lost the war."

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I don't know too many really rich people, but I don't think it's all that much different between different elements of society when it comes to those things. At least that's my impression.

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Originally Posted by AmericanEagle

To say that institutionalized racism does not exist is to ignore the foundation on which Canada and the United States was built. European colonists forcibly took Native lands, actively took measures to systematically annihilate the Native populations (smallpox blankets, deliberate slaughtering of their main food source: the buffalo, and just simply murdering them). Cultural genocide also took place through residential schools.

It is this history of colonialism and genocide that form the basis of how Native peoples are treated. Issues that affect Native populations are often ignored by the government, and there has yet to be an apology for the broken treaties.

In Canada, there are hundreds of missing Native women, and these cases go unnoticed by most Canadians because mainstream news outlets do not pick up the story. If these had been white women, the media would have been all over it.

The Canadian government continues to marginalize Native peoples to this day. In 2008, Prime Minister Stephen Harper issued an apology for Canada's role in the creation of residential schools. However, he failed to mention that the Canadian government committed an act of genocide. According to the UN Genocide Convention, "causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group," and "forcibly transferring children of the group to another group," constitutes an act of genocide. Thus, the Canadian government refuses to fully acknowledge and take responsibility for their horrendous treatment of Natives, and this lack of accountability continues to this day. For example, Native communities suffer from a shortage of clean drinking water (Kashechewan water crisis in 2005). Many Native reserves continue to be under boil-water advisories. Does this happen in communities where whites are the majority? Probably not.

The lack of acknowledgement of the genocide of Native populations around the world is also a form of institutional racism. When one mentions the word 'genocide,' the first thing that pops to mind is the Holocaust. While I'm not diminishing the horrific events that occurred during the Nazi regime, why is it that the Holocaust is privileged over other genocides? There were more victims of Native genocide than in the Holocaust, and the motives were the same.

The Canadian government also fails to adequately provide money for Native students' post-secondary tuition. This isn't free money by any means because all of these monies have been pre-paid when the treaties were made. Thus, the Canadian government refuses to give money to Natives that is rightly theirs.

I realize that most of my examples are Canadian because that is where I live, but I'm sure that similar injustices occur in other parts of the world, and that institutional racism exists.

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I can't speak for Canada or anywhere else in the world, but there is no institutionalized racism in the US. I have no idea what the past history has to do with current status. Everyone acknowledges past history and corrections have been made the last 40 years in the US.

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Originally Posted by ImaginaryFriend

so far virgil you have made me think about a lot of issues and i see most of your points so thank you.

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Why thank you. I'm glad I made a difference. :)