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Is it demeaning towards women?
Is it a legitimate affirmation of one's culture?
Should it be the woman's prerogative?
If crucifixes and other religious symbols are banned from certain schools, should the burka be as well?
Should the aforementioned religious symbols be banned at all?
This has been motivated by recent political developments, but I'm sure we can keep politics out of this discussion?
I am on the fence on this one. On the one hand i am very intimidated by not being able to see the persons face (anyone could be under there). On the other hand it is tha womans choice. But you dont need to wear that to be dressed modestly, and what does it matter if you are dressed in revealing clothes. That goes more to your fashion sense than your morals or character.
I suppose some people are forced by their families to wear it but hen even if it was banned for example those same people would just be forced to stay indoors by their families.
I certainly think no religion should have more right to open display than others. Basically if we are going to ban one type of religious display we should ban them all. Religion is what is in your heart not on your face or round your neck.
By the way i was assuming you meant the niqab (face covered as well). Am fine with headscarves its just like i said i prefer to see someones face :)
ImaginaryFriend, you did well to assume that, I did mean the one that covered all over. Thanks for your input!
Also an issue I forgot to bring up has to do with security concerns. I've often thought about how easy it would be for some thief to dress up in a niqab and rob and mug people. This is but a stupid fantasy, but there could be a real issue behind this line of reasoning:
Does the impossibility to identify someone who's wearing a niqab pose a security risk, or at least logistic/bureaucratic problems when it comes to routine ID checks, recognition in CCTV tapes and the like?
I think if it is actually the woman's choice, then I am fine with it.
I believe it has happened where men have dressed like this and robbed a jewellery shop but i cant be sure.
About it being the womans choice, like i said we can never be sure of that because of cultural pressure which may only happen in the minority of cases but is still hard to differentiate between this and free will.
Another aspect which comes to mind is that it widens social and cultural divide by making it blatantly obvious for all to see. I am not saying that everyone should conform but it still raises an interesting point for these times.
Security-wise it should definitely be banned, not because everyone who wears it is trying to hide something but because of the potential abuse of it by criminals. Unfortunately a small amount of people ruin things for everyone yet again...
Hmm, Franz Fanon's work on the subject seems to make sense in a colonial perspective, in relation to how Algiers viewed traditional garb as a form of resistance to French occupation but in an immigration perspective, it becomes difficult. The question is about modesty, as the religion itself, from what I understand, requires modest dress. In that sense then, the Burka's wearing implies that anything visible on a woman would be deemed as immodest - I.E. anything but the smallest touch of eye, and perhaps hands and maybe wrists. That I find problematic.
I'm against it - if someone, in my view, is under the belief that they are somehow disgusting, or shouldn't be looked at for whatever reason, then, quite frankly, somewhere along the lines there was some conditioning that I can't agree with.
This is an immensly complicated topic. Here in Denmark, in line with increasing racism, it seems to have taken great proportions. At this point, it is now forbidden for women wearing simply a hijab, the headscarf, to rule in court. This was decided as a young woman as the first managed to complete the degree, in spite of all odds. Ridiculous.
I think it is important to remember that the bhurka, Hijab, etc, are not just religious symbols, but also cultural. I would never wear one, but I do think it is important to allow women who wish to wear one that right. Instead of outlawing it, one can assist those whom find it difficult to stop wearing one for social or family related reasons.
While I'm atheist I think its silly to ban religious symbols, as they are a part of our cultures, and our religions, or non-religions are a part of who we are. Instead I would argue that society should put its time and money into teaching tolerance and informing about the benefits of multidiversity.
Amen to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by qimissung
I've worked in the Middle East for the last 15 years but must honestly say that because of the formal/cultural separation of the sexes it would be hard to get a first hand female's perspective on this subject
In Saudi its very strict, but then on occasion when flying out from the Kingdom to the UK, the speed with which the Saudi women change into Western dress once airborn is quite something.
In Iran, its quite strict in public, but then when invited to an Iranian's house for a meal, its quite normal to sit down with the wife without the burka & head scarf and hold a normal discussion face to face. Unheard of in Saudi hospitality, where you sit with the man only and then ask him to thank his wife for the nice meal.
I think that here in Qatar, they have found the right balance. Head scarfs, covered arms, sharp but modest dressing.
Not sure if that helps.
I was wonder when I read your post what a burka really looks like. If it includes a piece of veil that covers a woman's face and a long dress, it sounds like a pretty dress for women. However if it covers a woman's face with a piece of cloth, which spreads from a woman's head to her toes, it is horrible, and in opinion, degrading for women. Why will anyone want to conceal all women's faces for whatever reason that may have come to his head? If a religion teaches people to hurt someone's feelings, I am sure it is not a good religion, which only promulgates fatuous ideas.
If I chose to walk around naked would you accept that?Quote:
Originally Posted by qimissung
Virginiawang.
It would be interesting to know when the burka was first designed & the factors that determined its creation: protection from the sun, modesty, to stop men getting exicited?
Mark F
Non merci mon brave!
I still don't know whether it is a piece of veil or cloth that covers the face. That makes a great difference.
My understanding is:
A burka is the Afgan full Monty (Head to toe, inclusive face)
An Abaya is the Middle East version, which can be with, or without covering the face).
A Chidora is the Iran equivalent to the Abaya.
I see nothing wrong with anyone wearing something that represents thier religion. Especially if, as in the case with a burka, that religion encompasses a culture and lifestyle.
Wearing a burka is not (in my opinion) demeaning to women so long as it's the woman's choice. If it's just part of her lifestyle and she does no feel it is degrading at all, why should anyone else see it as such? What I see as degrading to women is the treatment of some of them in certain regions where Islam is largely practiced. Certainly not all women are treated badly. Islam seems to carry this stigma of mysogeny and violence that is not applicable to many practicing Muslims.
I'm not familiar enough with the treatment of women in Afghanistan. I know what I've heard, but when there's a war and such a cultural divide, it is hard to seperate fact from propaganda/paranoia. So I would be out of place making an overall judgement on it.
Mani- Thank you for your discriptions and explination...that was very interesting. I was wondering though, you said a chidora is the Iranian equivalent to the abaya; is it exactly the same thing but just named differently, or is there an actual difference between the two?
Chava- I fully agree with you that it is silly to try and ban religious icons. I think that is a total violation of personal freedoms. And where would it end? How can you tell one person not to wear a hajib, but it's okay for someone else to wear a crucifix? Then you'd have to start banning turbans, the red dot, saris, stars of david etcetc
I'm not religious myself (I'm agnostic) but I do not get offended in the slightest at seeing others' religious icons. My issue is when its pushed on me (but that's a different topic altogether)
According to Google Images this is a burka.
http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/res...8/03/Burka.jpg
If it's their choice I have no problem either, but really we should move on from this. I can't see why it would be their choice. But to each his/her own.
On a separate note, I find the hajib (head scarf) quite nice. There is a sense of decency and modesty and yet elegance to it.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/ffxi...y__396x400.jpg
Stargazer. Same thing, different name.
Getting slightly away from the outward garb, I've always been interested in how one determines, (if thats the right word), ones religion. Some have it from childhood, presumably introduced by their family and stay comfortably with it. Others at a later stage question either their initial religion or even religion itself. Some adopt rather exotic beliefs far away from their initial formal spiritual awareness. Yet others make the break completely and then somewhere in their lives cross the road and take up their original faith. At the end of the day is it: logic, instinct or returning back to the comfort of childhood memories?
Right I am going to work this a bit backwards. First just to put it in context I wear a hijab. I choose to wea on and no one in my immediate family ( Mum and sisters) wear one anymore.
I have posted pictures before of the whole regialia including NIquabs which I suppose woul be similar to the burka, it doesnt come all in one place as the burka does but it comes a seperate piece. that wraps around the head or is attached by an elastic band. it can cover or show the eyes depending on how it is worn.
Now I have worn Abayas atr times. Mostly it should be admited when I was feeling increadibly lazy ( i have some nice egyptian galabiyah ag=bayahs in denimn and multiculours that are kind of a kaftan dress thiong that goes over your clothes. Or when I was dressed up to the nines for a ladies only do. It means I can wear whatever I want under it and dont have to wear long sleeves and trousers/skirts. if I don't feel like it.
I have even worn a Niquab once or twice but that is under extreme ciricumstances were by I had coloured contacts in and and ful face make up. And it was in Saudi Arabia.
Now in truth my views as the the hijab are controvetial and unorthdox. I do not belive you have to wear one. I believe it is completly cultural. The word you will probably hear most often when you ask a muslim is 'protection'. Its a bit wierd but I think the idea is identifying yourself culturally as part of a certain group means that anyone else of the same group whoi sees you and knows who you are is therby duty bound to help you- if you need it. And I will admit I got loads of freebies in Manchester simply because I was identifyable as a muslim and store owners just gave me drink free a coouple of times, or said you know what have it now and pay next time you come round. For me personally it makes following the other rules of the religion easier. I am the kind of person who given an inch would take a mile so I knew when I came to England I would be keeping my headscarf . Plus its so much a part of me now I feel naked going out without it. So for me I see it as a matter of choice and Protection agaist temptation.
I might add the christians and Jews both had a form of headscarf in earlier religious days. My Catholic grandmother still wears a scarf to church.
I have to say I dont really like the niquab I like to be able to see other peoples faces too much. Intrestingly Face covering is banned on the pilgramigge unless you have a face that is so heart stoppingly breath takingly beautifully distracting that your face would interfeer with other people's concentration. And if you think you can justify that then you a full of pride and vanity so you can't wera it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ImaginaryFriend
The idea of the hijab the modesty etc is all tied into beauty rather than disgust . The more beautiful you are the more you cover up.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
Which is why in places lie Egypt the older women when they get to about 60 will stop weraing teh hijab because they say they are hardly going to be what is the word... not attrative or alluring . The literal word goes something along the lines of fantasy enducing. The idea is ( and by the way although it is very rarly seen there is a male equivelent basically waist to just under the knee should be covered in baggy clothes) if you delibritly dress in an enticing ( thats the word) manner then you get double sins. The person who sees you and and has 'improper' thoughts gets their sins and as a prover you get your sins and theirs added. So the modest clothes issue comes into play. The quarantic vesre uses the words beauty, ornamnets and bosoms. The hijab is an extentipon of it. And I suppose the womans crowning glory idea.
:lol: I have to laugh about that its one of my mums favourite anicdotes of the first two years she worked iun the middle east.Quote:
Originally Posted by MANICHAEAN
I have to say though have been born there I think that in KSA, its much more a cultural thing then in anyway related to religion. OH I know that it is tided in but the country was noting but desert and wondering tribes just over 100 years ago, and really the Abbayiah, thoab and gutrah were all around long before islam and the tribes inspite of the change in religion they clung to them. Nowadays it may seem odd to the rest of the world but I think its one of the those tghings that is fine is Saudi but if they choose to remove it the minute they leave tan that is excersisnt their choice isnt it?
Thats kind of the way I wera it though I would never say I am a sharp dresser.Quote:
I think that here in Qatar, they have found the right balance. Head scarfs, covered arms, sharp but modest dressing.
1) Only if people view it in a deeming light IMO. IT can be empowering just as much as deemening I think it has a lot to do with the womans opinions and those around her. If its orcedthen of course its deemeing espeiclaly if viewed as a away of putting women down or as a tool to deemen women. whihc it can be. But then most things can be. I have heard argumnets about how modern fashion is deemieng. How models, magazines like elle Hello and Ok are all demeening I guess its the eye of the beholder and the doer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Endon
2) As long as it is breaking not any laws and its not ( especially in a contect wher one hasd imigrated serverly interfeering with the ability of the weraer to accept the culture into which they are trying to meld then yes. Tolerance works more that just one way.
3)If you ban one kind of religios symbol then yes by all means ban them all. I think its worng in general to ban any ones expression of such a large part of their identity as religion. Then again if the shcool is the type that cracks doen on any self expression like dyed hair and body piercings/art then perhaps if you want to look at all the students as a body completlyt equally it is an issue that needs looking into harder.
Of course you will still have to allow the students to pray which would still mean differenciating between the main body. Although multifaith/quiet rooms are fairly genericly unreligious. But if there is no enforce uyniform () or at like post 16 education then I think the teenagers are ( by post 16 eduation) to make up their own midns about their religion and beliefs and how they chooce to demonstrate/affirm/declare and generally p[ractise and outwardly share. I think liitle kids are too young to wear a hijab or burkah or niquiab. Having said that I did start weariung a hijab at 12 and a few months but I was wearing it in a middle eastern country and every other girl in my class was already wearing one and I decided to wear one too. All the wrong reasons but I have found right to keep wearing it. So I do so and now I am older I see the point of the teachers my mum and the rest of my family who tried to oppose me weraing it.
Despite what ity looks liek niqabs are fairly flimsy thgings never actually been close enough to a burka to look at it properly, but with teh way national securiuty sissues are nowadays ( and on a uk note with theintroduction of the mandatory national id card including 16 points of dna recogntion and an iris scan) not being able to see most of your face shouldnt be an issue for software.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Endon
Actually I rember an old black and white egyptian film forem the days before the fall of the Ottman empoire (pre 1952 this is where face covers and abayah were mandatory by law in areas of egypt) the bank robber escapes dressed as a woman. only to be shot by a woman who realsies that he is moving right under the stuff.
Dear Nightshade
Sincere thanks. That was very informative.
Glad you got a chuckle from the Saudia Airline female exodus ritual!
This is a matter of choices. If a woman chooses to live in a place or attend school in a place where certain restrictions exist then yes they should abide by those restrictions (certainly while trying to change them if so inclined). However if there is no restriction and the ban or restriction is random and singles out only religious types of expressions in dress then no, I do not agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Endon
If symbols are to be banned or restricted simply because they are religious, then sports charms, slogans; bands or music tastes, etc. among other categories should be included as well.
~L
I understand that besides the problems with identity, the main issue is protecting the women from their families etc - that wearing it might not be really voluntary for them.
If they were banned from schools and similar institutions, however, what seems problematic to me is how would one enforce it? I mean, if someone broke the rule and wore a burka and was punished for it they would be either a)someone who willingly chose it so punishing her would seem quite undemocratic - government chooses what you wear even though, in this persons case, it doesn't hurt anyone
or
b)someone who was forced to do it by her family - therefore it was not her fault
Absolutely there is a problem with around the world in places that lack egalitarian treatment of women even by their families.
Women who are imprisoned for adultry for being raped! Of course the burka is thrust upon many who might choose otherwise.
My response was solely a hypothetical reply to a general set of questions about opinions where a woman's choice is an option.
I fully understand that there are places where there is no choice and no option.
~L
Well to play the otherside the easiest way of reinforcing is just to take it off someone who comes into a school wearing one. Of course then you come into conflict with protecction laws. when I was 5 or 6 ( and in saudi arabia) the school regulations stated that your nails had to be so short that they dont cover the tips of your fingers. Its prefferable if ther is no white edge showing at all. My nails grow at a ridicuolus rate and one day my mum had been too busy to cut my nails. and we had an inspection the next day. I was dragged into the headmistress's room held down ( to stop me flincching and hurting myself) by two teachers who used these massive craft scissors to hack off my nails. My mum was actually a teacher but she was only told fait accompli as it were. My nails were only just covering the edge of my fingers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taliesin
I still have to cut my fingernails two or three times a week becsuse I can't stand and can't function when they are longer.
Obviously that wouldnt happen in the 'western school' system. but if you relly want to inforce it that is going to have to be the way its done. Holding them down and pull it off. In the eyes of alot of people who wear the burkas then its kind of one and the same. Brutally stampng all over their rights ( their opinion rather than mine) so physically assultng them to seperate them is par the course. And I suppose that once physical forcce is threatend the little islamic getout clause becomes valid and then they can take it off.
I don't have a problem with people's clothes choices, but it does make me uncomfortable trying to talk to somebody when I can't see their face. That's my problem though isn't it?
its NOT choice. its absolutely imposed. and women who dont wear it where they are expected to are punished harshly if not with death.Quote:
Originally Posted by qimissung
its ridiculous, mysoginistic, arbitrary, humiliating, but that is exactly the purpose it serves: to ridicule, diminish, submit and humiliate women, so that they wont "tempt" the poor pure men with their "devilish beauties" and "attractives".
I think you are generalising a bit there. Sure it can on occasion be used as a tool to demeen women ( but then most things can) but it definatly can be a choice and by saying it cant you are belittling the women who freely choose to wear it and are proud of the fact they do.Quote:
Originally Posted by weltanschauung
i think not. and i dont think anyone is proud of being humiliated, but they are taught and obliged to believe they are. they dont wear it because its a choice, they wear it because it is required by their "religion" (men).
Sorry for those that disagree, but when believing men wear burkas, too, just maybe, I'd be convinced women might also. The image of men wearing those crippling togs is reminiscent of Chinese women with bound feet.
I've read the Koran, it is quite respectful of women...This is clearly a tribal discussion.
Welt, in many cases the wearing of a Burka is Cultural, and not religious. And as Nightie pointed out many women do choose to wear them. Yes many are also made to because thats the culture of their homeland. It is not the case for ALL!
but niamh, i understand that, the thing is that it is not the point. it doesnt matter whether it is cultural or religious or whatever the hell, you know? what matters is the reason behind the tradition. and the reason is that women are seen as evil because they inspire feelings of lust in men, therefore they are required to hide themselves in order not to tempt men, you understand what im saying?
the burka is not a tradition because women dont want to tan, or because it makes you cooler under it in a 50degrees celsius weather. it is required so that women are hiden from men's eyes, in order "not to tempt them". the reason behind the tradition is the need to humiliate women in order to submit them.
and it really isnt a fashion choice. theres nothing to do with fashion.
That ISNT why they are tradtional. The real reaosn they are tradtional is they are more common sense in the desert especially in olden times. If you think about it on the arab piniusula, most men ( well natives anyway) also cover their heads. and the badoui men also cover their faces in a lot of cases Ive heard of. ITt minimusises chances of dehydration. That other reasons were added to this and that it because seen as a symbol of muslim women is completly secondary if you want to go into the real reason its tradtional.
nightshade, there's no way anyone will ever convince me that a burka is used to prevent dehydration http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/21.gif
but hey, whatever floats your boat, some like to live in denial to have a better night of sleep.
I also do not think (at least I hope not) that fundamentally the reason for the burka is that muslim women are secondary. I understood that it was because they were special that they would be seen only by family and perhaps very close friends of the family.
This is not too unlike orthodox Jewish women who cover hair after marriage, with a wig, a scarf, snood, etc. not to make them ugly or to make them secondary, but to preserve modesty.
~L
Thank you very much for the great discussion. Sorry, I haven't been here for a while, but dissertation + internetlessness is a deadly combination.
I would really like to defend the dressing of a burka (or niqab, or whatever it is called: I mean the one that only leaves the eyes uncovered) in a country like France, but I can't bring myself to. Here's why: imagine someone goes naked to the street. That can't be. Why? Because our culture says it is inappropriate. Our culture also says that men and women should be equal. The idea behind the burka is that woman is inferior to man, and thus wearing it, be it through choice or not, propagates this idea.
My time's almost up, I'll write it more clearly later, Thor willing. But do you see what I mean? And tell me why I'm wrong, for I'm sure I'm wrong, and yet, and yet.
So wait endon do you want a defnece for face covering in western countries? I am not totally for it myself but I can say this, the only pointy you could really go for is that cultures change and adapt 100 years ago men and womend were NOT equal, the clothes we wera to day would be concidered indecent etc. By adopting people into your culture the culture both sides should give and alter. The culture that is accepting them should begin to show signs of multiculturalism and the people being adopted should be understand accpting and willing to bend with the culture they seek to join.
I think the main fear within muslim communities is when you give someothing they will take a mile. SO say you say no face cover, next it will be no headcover.. etc. Frankly I don't see how they can ban head covers though unless they went whole hog and banned all religios symbols.
This is the point that I tried to make only a couple of posts ago, perhaps I should delve deeper.
First, our culture (US) does not require hair covering (not head, but hair) yet married Jewish woman who practice Tzniut, do all over the US and the world. It is a choice, but for all who I know a meaningful one and for the most part wigs are worn so that you don't even know.
Second, our culture does not require tattos or body piercing, but allows it, not out of religious freedom, but a persons freedom of self expression.
Believe it or not in the small town, where I live, in the middle of the US and there are many muslim women (and younger girls) who dress modestly (usually wide legged trousers and tunics or floor length dresses and always with the hijab;head and neck scarf).
If it is their choice, I support them.
I certainly hope that the government will not get into my life to the point of telling me, "this is not what everyone else is wearing, so you can't wear it." What's next, our hair cuts? Will we be wearing uniforms?
I've actually thought some of the pant suits were attractive, so if I chose to wear them, it would have nothing to do with religion.
It would not surprise me to see a woman walk down the street in a burka. Sure at first people would look because it is unusual and we would like to get to know what is new to us, but then...hmph...whatever so there are burka's floating down the sidewalk.
As long as it is by choice I stand behind the wearer's right to wear it, for religious purposes, modesty, embarassment, or whatever other reason compelled the wearer to the choice.
~L
i dont really think its their choice, because their families require that they follow tradition, tradition which had its genesis back when they where in ziniguistan or whatever the hell. and the origin of the tradition also bothers me, because with no exceptions, all traditions are mysogenous, and they are all based in that little lovely passege of the bible that says that eve corrupted adam and thats why our world sucks now.Quote:
Originally Posted by LMK
http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/29.gif
Are you saying all society traditions in the world are based on the bible? The only logical way I can see that happening ( and concidering you disavowed believig in God and/or The abrahamic cannon of religions I highly doubt this is what you are getting it) is that if that story was true. That is Adam and eve were true butmore importantly if teh Flood was true and that from that time everyone had a single base tradtion from whihc they evolved.Quote:
Originally Posted by weltanschauung
On the other side, the different abrahamic religions have diffirent theories or rather versions of the Fall from Eden story. And significantly for this thread the islamic version does NOT blame Eve in anyway. It says they got the idea at the same time and ate the apples at the same time, and that they were both idiots for not thinking before acting and letting themselves be swayed by greed and suggestion.
wow, thanks for the interesting info nightshade! i've been skimming over this thread--thanks for your views.
i personally think the burka is a bit much, once someone is at the level where they can do business at a bank, or drive a car--but i'm willing to go along with the whole modesty thing in theory, kind of. but the hijab can be quite fetching, actually--no need to outlaw that...
True, there are places and situations where no choice is involved and that is not what I understood the thread to be addressing. If I am mistaken and we are being asked for opinions about another cultures' decisions to perpetuate what we (who are not apart of that culture) deem as degrading or demeaning, unnecessary or without good cause, then we are sticking our noses in someone else's underwear drawer. I do not know what it is like to live in such a culture and have no foundation from which to formulate an opinion without much more information.
The topic, as I understood it, is if when there is a choice involved should it be allowed?
My response to that is...yes, if it is a choice made by the wearer.