Printable View
Alright, two questions, one dealing with law and the other with ethics:
1) Should it be legalised and regulated or not?
2) Is it inherently humiliating?
Also,
[is it / should it be / can it ever become] possible to lead a 'normal' life as a prostitute?
One time I read an article about prostitutes in Amsterdam... a lot of the women said they enjoyed their work, felt liberated by it and found it as an almost emancipatory thing.
I think, to answer your questions, one would have to specify what type of prostitution we're talking about. The kind of prostitution that results from no other possible means, from drug use...the "on-street hookers" so to speak that have PIMPS? Then I would say that it is inherently degrading and quite awful... and can't see how it could not affect all aspects of one's life (psychologically and physically)
But if we're talking about the "high class hookers" (of the Eliot Spitzer variety), then that might be a different story. These women choose clients, choose the profession, and so on.
I still think that legalization might be a better option, with regulation. Because whenever you make something illegal people tend to do it more or in more illicit ways, etc. (look at examples of marijuana or what not...) I think Amsterdam might be a good example of how legalization of prostitution has decreased violence within this... or perhaps made it easier to regulate, oversee, etc.
I am not condemning or condoning here...I just want to raise some questions...
Should a prostitute be screened regularly and be required to be licensed and registered? Should customers have to be tested before they can be serviced (since they have the potential to permanently disqualify a prostitute? Or should there only be State ran prostitution facilities? Should a prostitute then be allowed to discriminate against anyone based on any reason?
I think it should be legalised because it seems preferable to the unregulated alternative. As Poetic says, it seems to work well in The Netherlands.
However, prostitution views sex as an economic commodity, and it troubles me that that view of sex could be misapplied. I don't think sex should be something we offer in the hope of getting something in return.
I find it amazing how some people find a way to justify a lack of dignity and self respect. I can understand need and no other recourse to live, but I cannot understand acceptance of humilation and lack of self worth. Thank God that when in my life we were poor, we had the self respect to not lower ourselves. It's amazing how the bluring of shame and justification for dysfunctional behavior continues in contemporary life. But to each his own. The world is made up of all sorts of people. A natural stratosphere of respectability must be inevitable.
Each to their own.
If they're going to do it, and people are, and people are going to go to prostitutes, at least make sure they're screened for diseases and nastiness
1.) I think prostitution should be legalised, since it can't be prevented. Regulation, as far as it concerns establishing enforceable working and security standards for the prostitutes seems to make sense, too.
2.) I cannot decide if prostitution is inherently humiliating. By all means I can imagine a lot of better jobs. Maybe it depends on the prostitute's disposition and motifs if she/he feels humiliated or not, and on the efforts of her/his environment to humiliate her/him.
Anyway, sexual harassment in the workplace should never be taken lightly.:D
This is flawed thinking...Quote:
Originally Posted by amarna
Murder cannot be prevented...it can be reduced, but not prevented. That does not mean that we should legalize it. I think that you need to have a better logic behind your argument.
Prostitutes don't kill others. Wrong analogy.:pQuote:
Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC
Prostitution, and we see it from a socioethic standpoint. Society makes someone a prostitute and the same society, and ironically at times the same society labels them as prostitutes.
First of all I hate this label I condemn the very institution of society that renders many as prostitutes.
They do by spreading disease...maybe not intentionally!!Quote:
Originally Posted by amarna
From the moral viewpoint, I personally don't see prostitution any different than the porn stars. I personally don't feel that it should be legal, but I personally don't feel that it should happen. Putting my personal feelings aside, I'm not sure what position is best from a social aspect, there are a great deal of questions that must be answered first as I mentioned above. If the law puts their stamp of approval on it, then they have to be ready to take some responsibility for the many problems that will occur (even if those problems are already occurring).
Legalized, regulated, and taxed. That way, it will be clean, safe, and profitable, and will keep out all the pimps and drug dealers, as well as reduce the spread of Sexually transmitted deceases. Beyond that too, it will generate a sizable profit for the tax system, that will, ultimately, pay to fund better programs and give back to society.
If someone wishes to sell their body, than it is their choice - all the government can do is make sure that it is done properly, and without violence or duress, and that it is monitored, and regulated, and taxed, as it is, hypothetically, a business, and should be subject to income tax.
People, I've divided the problem into two questions for a reason. For example, I'm definitely for legalisation, because I believe it's much more 'life-affirming' to support personal choice (should there be choice at all) and to protect prostitutes from pimps and disease than to criminalise and further castigate women who live in such dismal conditions as it is. Ethically speaking, though, prostitution poses a bigger problem, though I think it's only humiliating because of our society's powerful stigmata/taboos concerning sexuality.
So Virgil, though I understand and respect your stance on the moral side of the issue, I still think it's possible to disapprove of something and still be against its criminalisation, if only for the sake of freedom and for other people's welfare.
Bienvenu, I've used that same argument (the murder analogy) in the marijuana thread, only to find out that, as amarna pointed out, it's a fallacy. Prostitution doesn't really interfere with others' freedom, much less in such a forceful fashion as murder.
Here's a reframing of my second question, prompted by Tsuyoiko's post: is the commodification of sex condemnable? Is there something 'sacred' in sexual intercourse that sets it apart from any other activity? Pragmatically speaking, how is it different from a job where your labour force is a commodity?
Making condoms obligatory, which is one of the most important claims of prostitute's organisations, is a good example for what I mean by "regulating working and security standards".Quote:
Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC
That's a cultural assumption - different countries have different attitudes. Of course, during the middle ages, frequenting a prostitute was deemed less harmful to the soul than masturbating, so the church actually set up, and administrated numerous brothels, in essentially every city in Christendom.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Of course, we like to think the class problem has moved on, but the sense of degradation is purely societal - for instance, I am told the attitude to prostitutes by the general population in Thailand, for instance, is one of acceptance. OF course, class systems and gender issues follow, and that is somewhat tragic, but ultimately are preoccupations with "degrading", and "disgusting", and "dysfunctional behavior" are all relative. Many pornographic actors, for instance, love their job, and the fame and money - that too is societal, it would seem, with something like 30% of movies sold in Japan being pornos, and a billion dollar industry working out of LA, as well as countless examples in Europe, in contrast to, for instance, China, who has a strict ban on pornography, and prostitution to an extent, though, according to my friend, there are countless prostitutes working for what she deemed as a "cheap" price.
You don't fight prostitution by banning it - you do so by fixing income inequality, and setting up rehabs - legalizing it would merely just make it function - there is nothing wrong with it, assuming the women and men involved in the industry no and understand what they are doing, and it is gone about in a healthy, safe way, which, under the current system, it is not.
Whether it is unclean or not is irrelevant - there has never been a time when sex trading did not exist in one form or another. At least if it is legalized it will be clean and somewhat respectable.
This is how I THINK about the issue, not how I FEEL. According to my Christian beliefs, I firmly say NO, but in order to answer the question that you asked, I have done my best to put my beliefs aside.
To respond to the second part...mind you I haven't gotten a long time to think about it...
I pose the question since I don't have a full understanding... To many men, it is JUST sex. I can understand that, but I don't totally agree with that, but to women it is more (again this is a generalization). I would have to think that there are psychological impacts that we as a society are not ready to deal with.
Actually Mt Endon, you cannot answer that question without establishing some sort of standard of spirituality (at least I'm not thinking that an answer can be obtained). If I believe that 'God' created the sexual experience for the man and the woman as a form of bonding, then I would have one answer; however, if you took a position that did not include any Creator that applied an intrinsic design, then you may have a completely (180 deg) answer. Unless we can set SOME sort of parameters, the question becomes too difficult.
Condoms only reduce the chances, it does not completely take care of the problem. But I understand your position...and murder is not the best analogy, however, just because we cannot prevent something doesn't mean that we should allow it.Quote:
Originally Posted by amarna
[offtopic] BienvuJDC, I'm not fond of prostitution. But the world is as it is, and reality does not care for my or your ethical preferences. I think, if you can't remediate a social evil, you can leastwise try to manage it reasonably. [/offtopic]
So be it. But you won't get me to support a politician that endoreses legalizing prostitution. What a disgraceful country it would be if it were legal. Shameful. It has been one of the major criticisms of democracy that the lowest common denominator will prosper. With the discussions of legalizing prostitution, drugs, and other issues I won't even mention the lowest denominator seems to be coming to fruition. I guess once we have removed the moral basis of society, then all things are allowable if you can get people to support it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Endon
It's my assumption that prostitution is not a profession by choice. If you ask a child what she wants to be when she grows up, there's a good probability you won't ever get one saying she aspires to be a prostitute. Most of these women have reached a point of no return, it's either do it or die. Some do it out of coercion—those being pimped out. Most out of desperation. Or both. At the end of the day it's not about humiliation, it's about compassion. It's sad. Take them as they are. It's not my place judge people who have to do what they got to do to survive because they have no other options available. The rest of us (we) are just the lucky ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Endon
"normal" is relative. I honestly don't know what normal is.Quote:
[is it / should it be / can it ever become] possible to lead a 'normal' life as a prostitute?
Well I live in a culture. You can live as an animal for all I care. I know of no country that legalizes prostitution today.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
Haha, that's funny, considering your own country has a legalized prostitution zone known as Nevada, though, from what I have read, some of the legal restrictions in place are quite barbaric: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Nevada if that is anything to go by.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
In a sense, though I know of no kid who says they want to be a bagger in the supermarket either. Certain jobs never have child appeal, unfortunately - doctor, lawyer, racecar driver or whatever may appeal, but in reality,there are always people whose job it is to do the undesirable things in society - is the problem really to outlaw it, or to try and fix the income inequality gap - generally the people who target prostitution the most seem the least likely people to want to change the system that creates prostitution in the first place, which is ironic - you don't get rid of something, something which has had a history in the world for the longest time, by outlawing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Haunted
I personally would never frequent a prostitute, or a strip-club for that matter, but I am not silly enough as to say they should be illegal. There are, for instance, highly paid prostitutes who supposedly like their work - I think of most pornographic movie stars as such figures, though there are ones, supposedly who work the upper classes, and do not appear in films.
But what constitutes a prostitute even? Do we imply a direct transfer of cash for sex? Does it need to be intercourse (Bill Clinton anyone)? What about a gold digger, does that constitute as a long term prostitution contract? Our "culture" as a whole seems built around exchanging of favors for money, it would seem only natural that if someone can exchange their physical health by busting their back laboring, that someone can exchange their sexual favors for money, which often is better paying than manual labor to begin with. What about a girl who goes out with a guy because he is rich and buys her nice presents - what about a girl who goes home with a guy after he buys her a few drinks at a bar?
The only way to remove "prostitution" in this sense, is to completely outlaw it, and make breaking the law unbearable, which is to say, make premarital sexual relations illegal, or to, quite simply, remove the sort of economic plight that creates these situations, namely, get rid of material possession, and bingo - no more prostitutes (though perhaps people may run to the next town to raid women, as was the practice in pre-industrial societies that lacked senses of property).
Legal or not, it flourishes all over the world like the green bay tree, so like JBI, I see no point in outlawing it. Legalising prostitution does not mean giving it moral sanction. it only means allowing (decriminalising) those aspects of it which are not criminal to start with, so that time, energy and resources can be diverted into fighting the genuinely criminal aspects of organised prostitution like abduction, trafficking in women and children, forced prostitution, child prostitution and so on.Quote:
I know of no country that legalizes prostitution today. - Virgil
What standards of morality is it that men impose upon prostitution to make it acceptable so that it should be legalised? I mean there is a class issue here. The poor filthy prostitute who is good enough to service the lower classes in the alleyways is doing just as much of a service for that population as the upper class pro who has the elite clientele who can afford all the comforts of home. Despite the motives involved, why wrinkle your nose in disdain?
Broaden your horizons as well and consider the female clientele. The child prostitute who is there to meet the needs of men. What about the ethics of this? Is not supply and demand an equally viable factor? When is sex - the prohibited kind, which is half the excitement of the prostitute, really prohibited? In the minds of intellects?
Isn't the 'prostitute' whoever it may be simply the filthy dark truth of the base needs of man? and the issue of how to dignify that truth and legalise it, the all time challenge?
Prostitution is man- made and in nature there is no prostitution. For society creates it. In point of fact all I feel is in nature it is taken naturally and there is no abuse of it.
And society is guilty of it.
That's just because you're badly informed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
As I understand it prostitution is legal in the Netherlands, Germany, Greece, Latvia, Switzerland.
In many other European countries including UK, Belgium, Spain, Italy and France prostitution is not illegal though soliciting (advertising sexual services, running a brothel, kerb crawling, pimping and the like) is illegal. You can read all about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Europe
Bearing in mind this comment:
and this one:Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
you must think we're all depraved 'animals'. Nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
You are all assuming that all prostitutes are female - there is quite a thriving male prostitute industry in much of the world, and even a large tourist industry built around it. Jamaica, for instance, is considered a major destination for female sex tourists, and there are countless Kuta Cowboys (named after the beach village off the coasts of the Indonesian island of Bali) who are constantly frequented by female tourists = and that is just two examples;
But that isn't even the point - the language spoken in the Patpong area of Bangkok, for instance, is not Thai, but rather, American English - the only Thai people there are the pimps and prostitutes, meshed in around thousands of smelly American tourists. There is even a male-prostitution district a few blocks away, which too seems to speak American English.
In a sense, one could argue "no civilized country could legalize prostitution", yet the countries where it is legal, to me, seem the amongst the most civilized, whereas where it isn't legal, not only does it seem prostitution is as, if not more frequent, but a) the standards are lower, and b) the actual cultures themselves seem to backward, in both treatment of women as a whole, and in treatment of prostitutes. Compare, for instance, Germany, The Netherlands, Italy, France, and Austria, with China, Saudi Arabia (which has laws restricting almost every sexual act except that between a husband and his wives, and even that is limited), Burma, The Democratic Republic of the Congo, Sri Lanka, etc.
It seems, in terms of the divide, that the more "civilized" that, is, the better a human rights record a country has, generally, the more accepting of prostitution it seems to be. The reason, is, quite simply, it is not the State's decision whether or not someone is allowed to sell their body. There are exceptions, namely, Sweden for example, which makes it a crime to buy sex, but not to sell it, but on the whole, even countries where it is technically illegal, like Canada, there is still an accepted freedom given to prostitutes, as long as it can be confirmed to be their choice.
Of course, the problems really arise when the spread of deceases, and severe corruption are mixed in. But ultimately, regulation and legalization would simply remove those problems - a much healthier system, I would argue. It is a disgusting industry, but there are real people in it, and they deserve rights as much as the next person.
How many, for instance, Iraqi female refugees ended up in prostitution pens around the Gulf? Yet in those countries, it is illegal.
Why flock to Europe, like I posted above, The US has legalized prostitution in two of its States, but, in addition, also has a significant portion of the world's sexual tourists in countless countries across the globe. So as for civilized country, there really is no grounding - in this regard, very few cultures are civilized - the only way to really remove prostitution, is to increase promiscuity, or to live in a police state.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFifthElement
It can't imho be removed, but it can be decreased, for instance by funding educational facilities for prostitutes who want to exit the scene and for socially deprived women in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
Refer to signature.
vvvvvvvvvvvv
only region I can speak about with any degree of certainty, that's all.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
Oh wow! One of my expert subjects! There are some things I can be pretty unequivocal on, and this is one the big ones.
Absolutely legalised.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Endon
I'm not into victimising women, and as the enormous majority of prostitutes are women, I vote they should be able to use their bodies in any way which doesn't harm others.
I can't answer from personal experience as I've been neither female nor prostitute, but I do have a very good friend who runs a brothel and I am on good terms with many of the women who have worked there over the years. One of the women who worked there for a couple of years was a friend before and during her stint, and remains a close friend today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Endon
On the basis of knowledge of this eclectic bunch of women, I have to answer (2) in the negative.
I think prostitution is often humiliating, but certainly is not an inherently humiliating occupation.
NB. I have never been there as a client, but sit and drink Earl Grey tea with the chicks inbetween customers. I know stuff about blokes in Auckland which would make your hair turn white immediately!
Again, based on quite a substantial number of cases over many years, I must answer that with a definite yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Endon
Can't be done. There are no instant tests for the really bad diseases.Quote:
Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC
Absolutely not!Quote:
Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC
It would drive the business underground immediately. You don't imagine a judge is going to go to a a hooker employed by his own employer, do you?
:lol:
Absolutely, as they are in places where it's legal.Quote:
Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC
A hooker may legally refuse any client at any time. And they do.
I'd love to take you with me to meet the women who work in the brothel and point out where they lack either self-respect or dignity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Yep, that's exactly how it works where it is legalised and controlled.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
Fewer sex slaves, less gang involvement and a working - but very, very quiet - relationship with the cops, instead of the suspicion and avoidance in illegal situations.
Ask a cop anywhere; hookers are a great source of information, and when those hookers know with conviction that if they have a dodgy customer, the cops will come running, they can be an extremely useful source.
Ah, the slippery slope argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
What you need to do is put those comments into the perspective of homosexuals. I still hear the exact same comments about gay marriage - it will destroy morality! Even India has now legalised gay love and the world isn't about to end. I think your view on prostitution is more about doctrine than facts. It is a victimless crime, and really has little to do with general morality.
We've had prostitution for thousands of years and civilisation hasn't died off yet. We haven't descended into anarchy for more than short periods, and it's been shown time and time again that postitution doesn't increase after legalisation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haunted
Like most assumptions, it would be wrong.
Now you do!Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I see they've given the namby-pamby, pseudo legality of Europe, where you cna be a prostitute, but not solicit.
Compare that to New Zealand's proud history, where we are - I'm fairly sure - the only state where prostitution is totally legal nationwide. Prostitutes advertise openly in the press and on radio and television.
We legalised prostitution five years ago, and New Zealand is nothing if not the fairest society on earth. We don't tolerate crime, nobody is campaigning for paedophilia to be legalised and the fabric of our culture is not about to shatter.
Unlike virtually everywhere else on the planet, a woman can be a prostitute, protected by laws and the police, and offer her body for rent without fear of coercion.
I know numerous women who have made very good money out of hooking, entirely by choice, and I have yet to see one of the women at the brothel I know that could be classed in any way as a victim. The women there are the best bunch of women I know - great sense of humour, a geneuine camaraderie I've yet to see in any other workplace, and a respect for themselves and what they do.
That's not entirely correct Atheist. In most European countries prostitution is legal but soliciting is not, but in the Netherlands, Germany, Greece, Latvia, and Switzerland it is totally legal and regulated. There's been some suggestion that UK will legalise brothels, but if we find ourselves with a Conservative government after the next election, which is likely, then plans will likely be scrapped. Which is a shame.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
This seems to be an almost totally heterosexual Forum :) With just a few exceptions, prostitutes have been referred to as 'she' (though one of the exceptions referred to women employing what used to be known as 'gigolos', euphemistically perhaps?) but what about the boys - are you goiong to legalise the rent boys? What's sauce for the goose, after all....
I know, I was just indulging in some gentle Euro-bashing.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFifthElement
:)
I did note that the vast majority of prostitutes are women, and that's why I've only mentioned them. Gigolos are a rare breed, while rent-boys are reasonably common. In NZ and elsewhere, ther can be no differentiation between male, female and transsexual prostitutes anyway, so while "women" isn't technically correct, it doesn't matter as all people are treated the same in the eyes of the law.Quote:
Originally Posted by kasie
Prostitution should not be legalized because many prostitutes are forced into this profession. According to the European Institute for Crime Prevention and Control, half a million women and children from developing countries are trafficked to Europe each year. These women and children are often lured with promises of a real job, but instead, they are forced into sexual slavery. Legalizing prostitution would only encourage these traffickers and pimps because they would be considered as legitimate businessmen.
No, that's completely incorret.Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanEagle
Legal brothels don't use sex slaves. Legalisation helps reduce illegal slavery.
Legal brothels do NOT use sex slaves as The Athiest stated. Sex slavery is not legal prostitution, and legal brothels offer a service of "legal prostituion"
Is it not importent to consider the influence of "Fallen Angels" on the literary scene; after all, this has perhaps more relevance to this forum than threads like: "What are you wearing now" & "Counting down from 1,000" !
Writers like Graham Greene acknowleged the inspiration of prostitutes to some of his novels like: The Power & the Glory, The Hon Consul, The End of the Affair.
In "The Crimson Petal and the White" by Michel Faber, rich Victorian William Rackham marries the virtuous Agnes, only to discover that she has a horror of the carnal act. Eventually William's sexual interest reduces Agnes to a life of self-incarceration. He duly falls for an intelligent whore with a heart of gold. Researched or good imagination?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
How would you know for sure that these women are not under the control of traffickers and pimps?Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
Never mind that, we can go all the way back to the bible as far as hookers go.Quote:
Originally Posted by MANICHAEAN
Because when brothels are legal, they are strictly controlled by the government to ensure the rules are kept and workers are vetted, medically and judicially.Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanEagle
Simple stuff. It's one the prime reasons why prostitutes and prostitutes' collective are so strongly in favour of legalisation - if you want to remove or at least restrict the illegal sex trade, making it legal and encouraging a working relationship with police is a hell of a good way to ensure the slavers are kept out.
Legalize it.
Prohibition does not work. We learned that in the 20s. Alcohol was illegal, so the criminals supplied it, growing rich on the profits, violence between rival gangs erupted into the streets.
Marijuana is illegal, so the drug cartels supply it, we've tried for decades to stop it, but use has only grown. So all we're doing is funding violent street gangs and terrorist groups.
Prostitution is illegal, so women who do it are immediately at risk for violence because they have to operate in the shadows of society and their abusers know they are unlikely to go to the police. It is so dangerous and unsafe for them. Of course as well, we've tried to make it illegal, it doesn't work, it hasn't stopped it, it has just made it more dangerous and made it more of a problem to society. With prostitution being illegal we're funding pimps, and human slave traffickers.
Why don't we attack the wallet of all these bad guys by taking their golden goose away?