What, is your opinion of the above statement?
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What, is your opinion of the above statement?
For reference, this is not a religious question, simply what is your opinion?
The little of Qu'ran I read didn't make me feel like it encourages the emancipatation women at all
If I haven't read someone's paper dealing with ... something along those lines if I remember correctly (ahem, and so not telling ;)) I wouldn't have even known the little I know now, from what I read it didn't make me feel like 'emancipation of women' and 'Qu'ran' belongs into the same sentence. But then it all depends on what you understand under 'emancipation of women' I guess.
in the 7th century, the prophet mohammed encouraged women to be equals of men, which was a revolutionary idea, compared to their primary status as units of trade in the surrounding tribal and patriarchal Arabian society. I'm an athiest, and i only came a across this while browsing for a topic to make a public speech on. It occured to me, that the modern interpretation of islam in itself is oddly not related to the original teachings. Today, women in Europe are still fighting for equal rights, in Denmark women only got voting rights in 1915, the prophet mohammad gave women the right to vote in 700. Somehow that is very thought provoking, since the wetsern world is so busy preaching about the imorality of islam, even though few know what they are talking about...
just an interesting observation...
It is quite interesting that you pointed that out Chava, as so many people overlook that part of Islam. And for your interest, I do agree with the above statement. From what I have read, Islam teaches that women have the right to vote, to recieve an education, to work etc. The sad thing is, the teachings of Islam have been somewhat distored over time - people place their own interpretations in the meanings to suit themselves, culture becomes intertwined in the teachings (like honour killings) etc. and people consequently fall short from seeing what Islam teaches. Sorry, cannot go into too much detail about my thoughts without this turning into a religous post :)
And I appologise if my writing is so incoherent. Ah, what staying up too late on the net can do to your brain :p lol
Just got curious and searched a few sites, it seems that islam women do have voting rights as oposoed to what I thought earlier, found a few things I'd like to read later... when I'm not packing, lol. Actually, after the finals are over I could read the Qu'ran. Thanks for bringing this up :)
Italy ---> 1946 :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Chava
I know less than nothing about Islam, today I was quickly reading some short articles about women that had troubles in Islamic countries and ran away, some of them after having been beaten or even burnt by their husbands... But one of them was saying that the Qu'ran doesnt really state that the women have to be submitted that way, it's just that those habits got into the culture, but it's not a religious imposing. So as Molko said, it has been distorted... i think it's a matter of fact though that in some Islamic countries women have no right to choose their husband or to choose weather to wear a veil or not, or even to wear make up or stuff...Or maybe this was Afghanistan before the Talibans were kicked out (naif way of saying it), I dont remember... But anyway, it would be curious to know what the Qu'ran really says on those topics.
By the way, I think there is a book of the Bible that doesnt have flattering things about women, like in 'some days' they are impure and shouldnt touch anything not to make it impure and such...(is this turning into 'religious texts'?)
Should this move to religious text section, where it's suppose to be? :)
It depends how you comprehend the teachings...I see some Muslim women who totally holds the patriachal values based on some verses in the teachings. On the other hand, some of my friends are very liberal and stated that Islam doesn't hold back women to be equal as man in many kinds of fields
Some provinces of Canada allowed women to vote only since the 1940's. As someone who believes all people should be free, I cannot abide any text or doctorine that denies what is inherently the human condition and that which we are born into, one of the few things we may call our own. FREEDOM of our own lives!!!
P.S.....WHEN IS THE WORLD GOING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE HORROR IN SUDAN????????????????
Quote:
Originally Posted by baddad
The world? Isn't that mean it include you and I?
Oh my, what do you think we should do?
Define the problem, teach everybody about konflict resolution.... stop electing silly world leaders, eliminate the concept of segregation.... there are vast opportunities...
vast but hard....
Which means...
primarily? it means when and where should we all start?
Speak out. Let your views be known. A simple tee shirt proclaiming your abhorence, an arm band signifying solidarity with those suffering, write to your member of parliament, stand on the corner with a sign that reads, "Stop the rape and slaughter." Protest at school, leave a message on the Sudanese Government website, send an email, do anything, something, but be sure to remember that evil flourishes in the dark. Drag the horror into the sunlight where others can see it and they will be repelled and sickened......and maybe they too will speak out, wear a sign, a shirt, an armband............spread the word and others may/will feel the need to speak out.......Quote:
Originally Posted by subterranean
These may seem inconsequential acts, pointless even, but keeping the spotlight on our own governments actions/lack of actions is the least we can do, keeping the horror in the light is critical to ending it.......
People have a tendency to ignore anything that is not happening right in front of them, or happening to them personally. Bringing attention to abhorent actions in other areas of the world is difficult, but not impossible. Media coverage can be used for good as well as for the disemination of disinformation. Pressure on the media to maintain an ongoing coverage of any given subject can produce a groundswell of support for just about any cause. Living in Indonesia as you do, you have recently witnessed the power of the media firsthand: the whole world agonized in Dec. 2004, along with your country. Attempt to put the media to work. Hassle them into covering events in Sudan. University newspapers have been known to support causes that later bled into the mainstream media. Every little bit helps.
Genocide, or what is more gently termed these days as 'Ethnic Cleansing' (sounds soft, like your giving someone a bath') seems to be an accepted practice as long as it is not happening in our own countries. Personally I find this disgusting at the least. What is more disturbing is the world's response to these historic and now on-going slaughters: inaction, discussions, political manouvering, facades of caring, words of condolence expressed but no action taken.........
Europe just celebrated the ceasation of hostilities in Europe 60 years ago. Yet forgotten is the horricific slaughter, the appeasement tactics that failed, the root result of ingoring the slaughter that everyong deigned to ignore or pretend wasn't happening.......all forgotten/ignored for more expedient political reasons. Afterall, it isn't their citizenry being raped, maimed, murdered, hacked to pieces......
*IIIIeeee.......ugly tirade ends here....*
Oh My God! Now I really need His help because I'm sure my bad English wouldn't help me to explain what I mean. Anyway: ya Allah!
First I must say that it was God not Muhammad (S.a.v.s) who gave women rights which were 90% equal of men's. I say 90% equal, because in islam men and women don't have exactly same rights. there's some difference. As men and women differ by biology of course God can't give them same duties and rights. It's normal. For me Guran is what God offers, not creative works of Muhammad (s.a.v.s). And believe me what you've seen around in islam countries they're related with Guran not more than 10% . Muslim must follow just 5 law; one of them is zakat. which means every year muslim must give 2.5% of his wealth to poor ones . I don't believe that they follow that, but they use the other right - the ability to get marry twice and more-which isn't demanded follow as zakat. they use it changing details. there's not temporary marriage which is allowed in Guran, but they can get marry for fun, for an hour or for four month. It's funny because it happens in islam countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran and etch and in legal way.
I often see Guran is being discussed like that. I need to share what I know about Guran, about the scinetific proofs of some ayats of Guran. Inshaallah I will open new thread regarding that. I think it would be interesting for you. I just need time. Because talking about Guran you should give 100% right information.
Regarding the subject: the fact that Guran encourages the emancipation of women is true. Actually for that period it was more than that. as before islam arabian tribes used to burry their kids-daughters while they were alive, it means Guran was rescue for women.
well I was looking for somthing else and found this thread so because this is another one of my obbsessions I will have my say!
Yes Islam originally freed (spellling) women in its teachings but the arab culture before that was heavily anti-female ( they used to bury newborn girls alive!)
Islam put a stop to this! As well as giving women the freedom to choose whom they wil or wont marry as well as the freedom to own their own property and to divorce there husbands (although this is slightly more coplex)
OO looks like Im merely repeating Caspian
:D
But I have a question whats this about marige and zakat? Marrige for fun (with the intention of divorce) is that haram?? :confused:
I am an Indonesian, and moslem in Indonesia really gives liberty to woman :nod: . I'll tell you later, not now :):):)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chava
I recently read The Bookseller of Kabul, a non-fiction work about life in Afghanistan, written by a woman from Norway, Asne Seierstad, who lived with a family in Kabul for many months. I also read Reading Lolita in Tehran by a brilliant (in my estimation) and courageous professor of literature, Asar Nafisi.
I wish those two authors, both women, who lived and worked in two different Islamic countries, would join our forum and post their impressions in this thread, in response to your question. It would be interesting to see what they have to say.
The portrait painted by these two books is not a portrait of emancipation (my impression) but then, you would have to read them for yourselves, and draw your own conclusions.
I once saw a very amusing quotation, supposedly said by some ranking person in the government of France, something about, "That works well in theory, but not in practice." (Can't remember the exact wording.)
I am reminded of that famous sentence in George Orwell's Animal Farm, "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (I am so used to hearing men called "pigs" that I get confused, sometimes.)
You know what they say about pudding, that "the proof is in the eating." We may examine religious scriptures, such as the Bible or the Qu'ran, or redacted oral traditions such as Talmud or Hadith, or the constitutions of various nations, and we may draw various conclusions about equal rights or human rights or leftist rights. Those conclusions are the "pudding" so to speak, a pudding of words on paper. The "eating of that pudding" comes in examining how those words are actualized in individuals, families and societies in daily real life. Sometimes, when we are too hasty in eating our pudding (not hasty pudding) we wind up with "a pie in the face" (like those slapstick comedies), or we simply wind up with "egg on our face" because we cannot convincingly support our opinions, and we have to "eat humble pie" or perhaps "eat our hat", if it should prove to be the case that the reality of daily life does not seem to match or live up to the promise of the reality that we found in those scriptures or constitutions.
I would like to add some more thoughts to this post of mine, during the coming hours, as my time right now is somewhat limited. I realize this is a delicate topic. Delicate topics have the potential to become explosive and disruptive and cause distress for moderators and administrators, which only results in threads being locked. So I will try to speak in a constructive and sensitive manner and provide various readers with "food for thought" which will be more than just hasty pudding.
It seems to me that women have been riding "in the back of the bus" for thousands of years. In fact, it is only during the past 50 years or so that some seats have opened up in the front.
http://www.lankalibrary.com/pol/sirimavo.htm
Whenever we start bandying the word "equality" about, we aren't really being totally honest, are we? We aren't simply talking about the freedom of sitting anywhere in the bus. We are talking about getting the chance to drive the bus, occasionally, and to invent the bus, and to sell the bus. When we begin to speak of equality, we begin to traffic in a host of controlled substances; hegemony, empowerment, honor, glory, wealth, and all those other heady intoxicating mind-altering things which are sometimes locked up and heavily guarded. When we yearn for equality, what we really want is a crack at leadership and the hope of exercising authority.Quote:
Originally Posted by World's First Madam Prime Minister
"Emancipation" implies some previous state of imprisonment or bondage. We speak of "the emancipation of slaves." Let's pretend that you are someone who has lain for hundreds of years cruelly bound by rusted barbed wire, such that the slightest attempt at movement is agonizing. Now I, the great, heroic Sitaram (but you may simply call me Liberator), come along, place a chain about your ankle, cut away all that nasty barbed wire, and proclaim "You are liberated!" You seem very happy indeed. The chain is an incredibly long chain, and no ordinary chain, but made of solid gold, and it glitters and sparkles with your every movement. One day, you notice the chain, when you for the first time attempt to move beyond its limiting length, and you come to me, inquiringly. I explain to you, "Well, you are free now, aren't you? You are far more free that you were for centuries. You certainly don't expect to be totally free, now do you?"
I once asked an Imam why it was necessary for Muhammad to marry NINE wives. The explanation that I received was that they needed protection, for those times were very dangerous, and the only manner in which Mohammad could protect them was to marry them. In the Qu'ran, I forget the exact Surah now, there is a passage in which it is explained that the wives of Muhammad are the mothers of all Muslims and it would be an outrage if anyone were to marry one of Muhammad's wives after his death, since, in effect, they would be marrying their own mother! I was curious why women needing the protection of marriage would now no longer require protection as widows. Apparently, Kadijah's status as widow did not present any impediment to her marriage with Mohammad (and by the way, it was Kadijah who did the proposing, which is already fairly emancipated in my book).
Kadijah, the first wife of Mohammad, a widow herself, is credited with the honor of being the very first person to follow Mohammad as a Prophet, the very first Muslim. Tradition tells us that Mohammad was quite perplexed when the angel Gabreel first appeared to him in the cave. Mohammad related the wondrous experience to Kadijah and asked her if she thought him a madman, or in fact really a prophet. Kadijah took Mohammad to an old wise relative (I forget the details) and arrived at a decision that Mohammad was indeed a true prophet.
It is most curious that Mohammad would consult a woman on such a serious matter when we consider that, under Sharia Islamic law, the testimony of a woman has only half the value of a male's testimony (it takes the testimony of two women to equal the testimony of one male). In matters of inheritance, under Islamic law, a female relative only inherits half the sum that a male relative would inherit.
Now, the Qu'ran encourages a number of worthwhile things. The Qu'ran encourages sobriety because it forbids the use of intoxicants. Unfortunately, liquor seems to be available on the black market even in the holiest of cities.
Surah 2, verse 256, encourages religious tolerance, for it says that "There shall be no coercion in matters of religion."
Yet, circa 1000 c.e., Persia (now Iran) and fallen under Muslim domination, and there are ancient Parsi (Zoroastrian) accounts of Muslims appearing outside their Parsi Fire Temples and attempting to coerce them to come to the Mosque. Most of the Zoroastrians fled Persia and came to India, where they now number under 300,000.
Some years ago, I would dine frequently at a small restaurant where a lovely young woman from Egypt, in her late 20's, was working as a waitress. I was very curious to know her feelings regarding Islam's law permitting a male to have as many as four wives. It seemed to me that, if a young woman were enthusiastic about her religion, then she would find every aspect of that religion sensible and appealing. She said, "No way! I worked hard to find just the husband I want. And he is all mine. I do not want to share him with anyone." She then told me that she knew a woman in Egypt who allowed her husband to take a second wife, because she was unable to bear children, and she wanted her husband to have children. The young waitress said that the first wife participated in the wedding ceremony as kind of a bridesmaid, and that it was sad to watch (in her opinion.)
My opinion is simply this: Show me an Islamic nation in which all women are emancipated, and then it shall make little difference to me what it is precisely that the Qu'ran does or does not encourage. But, if you cannot show me several Islamic nations (after 1500 years of Islam) in which the women are all emancipated, then you may show me all the Qu'ranic verses you like which encourage emancipation, and it shall not impress me much at all.
Sitaram, it's "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."
(this is a continuation of my previous post, "Pie in the Sky", because I have exceeded the 10,000 character per post limitation).
What is our definition of "emancipation?" Certainly, the right to vote is very important. But just last week there was a documentary about Egypt, and they were interviewing a small town official, similar to a mayor, who worked closely with the local population, to help them with problems and material needs. He explained that, come election time, all those people he had helped throughout the year would come to this "mayor" and say: "You have helped us so much and now it is election time, so we want to repay you by casting our votes for the candidates you choose." The "mayor" explained that he would hand them a list of which candidates to vote for. Now, in such little towns, the women may be emancipated enough to have voting rights. But IF it is the case that, in PRACTICE, the people choose to treat voting as a favor to be repaid, then certainly one cannot say that this is democracy in practice. This is not what was originally envisioned when representative elected governments were first founded. Certainly, I am not saying that it is like this in every Islamic society. I am simply pointing out that there can be a vast difference between "theory and practice." Theory is what you see promised in the religious texts or the government constitutions, but practice is what you find in real life; daily life.
I recently watched that movie Monsieur Ibrahim, with Omar Sharif and Francois Dupeyron, on DVD, about an old Muslim shopkeep, in Paris, who adopts an orphaned Jewish boy. The jacket of the DVD explained that Omar Sharif's movies are banned in Egypt because he played opposite the Jewish actress, Barbra Streisand, and kissed her. I was shocked to learn this trivia fact. Such censorship will cease only when the minds and personalities of an entire society are emancipated through education and culture from the shackles of prejudice and ignorance. Only when the minds of a population are emancipated will you see actualized in practice genuine civil rights, human rights, racial equality, gender equality, freedom of speech, freedom of press, freedom of peaceful assembly, freedom of belief and freedom to disbelieve.
http://entertainment.msn.com/celebs/...x?mp=b&c=50043
The above link is to a brief biography of Omar Sharif, which mentions the bann in Egypt. One forum member assures me that his movies are shown daily in Egypt, which is pleasing news for me to hear. The wording in the biography is vague about when the bann took place, and how extensive it was.
There is something which Omar Sharif says several times in that movie which is quite germane to the question which this thread poses. Several times during the movie, the young boy asks Omar various important questions about life, and Omar simply answers, "I know what is in my Qu'ran".
We do not learn until the very end of the movie what is really meant by that statement. If I tell you what is meant, it will be a SPOILER, so I have placed the spoiler by itself on one page of my site, and here is the link:
http://toosmallforsupernova.org/sharif.htm
so do not visit and read if you have not seen the movie, because it is a real spoiler, and will rob you of the enjoyment of seeing this wonderful movie. I suggest you watch the movie first, and then visit my link.
The emancipation of any given individual, within any given society is dependent, not only upon the promises and encouragements of the scriptures and constitutions of that society, but upon the degree of liberation in the mind of the average citizen in that society. How emancipated is each mind from prejudice?
The motto of the Liberal Arts College which I attended is, "I make free men out of children with books and balance (Facio liberos ex liberis libris libraque)." Education is a means to emancipation in the broadest sense of the word.
You can legislate all the civil rights and equality and human rights you please, but would you "want to hire one of them" or "would you want your daughter to marry one?" It is the answers to such questions which are the measure of civil rights and human rights, and not the simply words on the pages of books or scrolls. There are laws on the books prohibiting spitting on the sidewalks, but we still must be careful to watch where we step.
Karl Marx certainly encouraged the emancipation of the working classes: "Workers of the world, unite, for you have nothing to loose but your chains." China and the former Soviet Union had over 3 generations worth of time to put the theory into practice. Were the workers emancipated? I don't know. You tell me.
Has the Qu’ran been successful, or the Gospels or the Torah? There are 15 million Jews in the world today, over one billion Muslims and over one billion Christians. How do we measure success? Is majority rule what is key? Is truth a popularity contest?
Here is a fascinating and instructive exercise for us to undertake.
Consider the following statement:
I am going to tell you up front (cart-before-the-horse-style) that the Gospels are very in-your-face encouraging forgiveness but the majority of Christians (with the interesting exception of the Amish) are short on forgiveness and long on vengeance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forgive your Enemies and Turn the Other Cheek
I say this right up front so that the reader will not begin to feel anxiety that I am about to embark upon some Qu'ran bashing by means of some Gospel praising.
Kurt Vonnegut made the astute observation that American Christians are always clamoring to erect monuments and plaques with the Ten Commandments of Moses, but no one ever thinks to erect anything with the Beatitudes of Jesus. It was the Beatitudes of Jesus' "Sermon on the Mount" which were Gandhi's favorite, and not the "Ten Commandments" on the stone tablets which Moses brought down from Sinai.
My motif in this post has been a consideration of things that "work well in theory but do not work at all in practice" and I have broadened the scope of this motif to include not only the scriptures of all religions in general, but also the constitutions of governments. I feel I am trying my best to be non-partisan in this regard.
When I see television documentaries about convicted murderers on death row, in states which are predominantly populated by "bible belt" fundamentalist Christians, and I see throngs of those Christians clamoring for an execution so that "justice might be served" then I cannot help but come away with the feeling that forgiveness, in the Gospels, worked very well in theory but hardly at all in practice; the day to day practice of those professing to be practicing Christians.
If it should be the case that a reader arrives at the subjective conclusion that the theoretical Quranic encouragement of emancipation is a failure in practice, then I hasten to remind that reader that Islam is not alone in its failures, and we may place such failure sided by side with Christianity's failure to recreate the world as people born again with a spirit of forgiveness.
I mentioned one exception to the failure of Christianity to embody forgiveness in daily life: the Amish. Several years ago, I posted something entitled "Forgiveness and the Amish". The Amish are a very small fringe group in Christianity which most mainstream Christians perhaps do not even regard as being Christian at all, but perhaps view them as schismatics or heretics or some misguided sect.
I would like to share with you an excerpt of what I wrote about a traumatic event which took place in a small Amish community and how poignantly and dramatically it illustrates how the Amish succeeded in forgiveness to a degree which greatly surpasses the shortcoming of mainstream Christianity.
Here is one Christian group's take on women's emancipation/liberation:
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-f003.html
(This is a continuation of the previous post #21, "What does it mean to be emancipated", as I am approaching the legal limit of character length.)
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atla...25/page314.htm
Derrida, a proponent of Postmodernism, once said that "Genuine forgiveness, if such a thing is possible at all, is to be found only in the face of the unforgivable." (paraphrased from memory)Quote:
Originally Posted by Forgiveness and the Amish
What are the prerequisites for emancipation?
If I might have your permission to "jack up" the topic of this thread to the highest question of all, not simply regarding Islam, but all religions, and not simply regarding the important issue of emancipation, but regarding that which is the prerequesite and sine qua non of all other human rights, namely PEACE; in what way do the religions and constitutions of the world encourage peace, for, before we can have liberty and equality and fraternity and emancipation and wisdom and enlightenment and the heavenly host of other wonderful things we seek, we must above all, achieve lasting, world-wide peace. We still seem to be some distance from the goal of world peace. I am sure it is just around the corner.
It is small consolation to be emancipated if people are shooting at you and bombing you.
You know, I think we should ask Jimmy Carter to post his opinion in this thread. Now, Jimmy happens to be a personal friend of mine.
(Sitaram shouts)
"Hey, Jimmy, come on over hear and take a look at this thread and tell us what you think!"
Jimmy Carter points out that it is the failure of practicing Christians themselves to actualize in day-to-day practice in their lives that spirit of forgiveness which their scripture encourages in theory that prevents an author like Michael Hart from taking Jesus more seriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy Carter
Im still reading butsorry thats a load of rubbish They show lots of Omar sharif films in Egypt on channel 2 at night and chanell one between one and three in the afternon on week daysQuote:
The jacket of the DVD explained that Omar Sharif's movies are banned in Egypt because he played opposite the Jewish actress, Barbra Streisand, and kissed her. I was shocked to learn this trivia fact. Such censorship will cease only when the minds and personalities of an entire society are emancipated through education and culture from the shackles of prejudice and ignorance.
( this also includes films made before omar sharif became "omar sharif" and was still usuing his real jewish name (he was born an Egtyptien Jew).
I havent seen that film that is true but then all films shown on tv in Egypt are automatically censored to a family guidance so depending on the rating of the film it maynot be shown.
humm there is an ayah of the Quran that I cant quite remeber where from that goes somthing like:Quote:
Almost all religions adopt some form of the Golden Rule as a premise, but Jesus was alone in commanding that we forgive enemies, turn the other cheek, or walk a second mile.
If angered God loves the non-violent, God loves those who contain there dispelsure and do not react but most of all God loves the one who forgives"
It sort of goes on in that vain for a while about who forgiving is the greatest strength and to do so will make you a better muslim and person and repeap rewards etc.
Actually one of the most trully annoying things you can say to someone who has made you mad (and this really does work especially if they are a muslim with any religous conscince) is"May God forgive you" :D
Anyway What I think is that emanciption is not trully a definition that is cross cultural.
what I mean is that to differant socities restraints may seem different.
A couple of years ago we moved to the UK (back for my mum as she is British but its the first time I have lived here) anyway as a teenage girl I kept getting ask questions like doesnt it annoy you that you wont be able to drink alchol date etc!
and isnt it like an impingment on your freedom and the answer is no!
I may be really lucky but I have never found the differances betwwen men and women a problem if anything it has always worked in my favour.
Get on a crowded bus Im a girl some male person will get up and I will sit! If Im ever in trouble I just have to scream and I know for sure that in Egypt at least twenty men will come running to help me! :brow:
Yes the culture doesnt except men and women as being the same coz lets face it there not but I dont think it really impinges on a girls freedom as such.
Also the developed world may think it has emancipated women but the truth is I think there are just as many boandarise as there are in the arb world there just slightly more hiddenthan before.
It makes me feel happy and releaved to learn that Sharif's movies are shown in Egypt.
You have aroused my curiosity as to Omar Sharif's religion.
All I can find, so far, is the following:
http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/content/2004/s1051544.htm
This biographical linkQuote:
Originally Posted by Raise Cathothlic, a convert to Islam
http://www.netglimse.com/celebs/page...if/index.shtml
gives Sharif's original name as Michel Shahoub
It is VERY INTERESTING for me to learn from that link the original French title of Monsieur Ibrahim
Monsieur Ibrahim et les fleurs du Coran
Blahhhhhhhhhhh
ignore previous post I think Sitaram added to her firt post and I missed that.
did only one wife survive him aisha wasnt it??
anyway I thought she did remarry.... no maybe that was asma her sister oh she proposed to her husband too.
If my poor aging memory serves me correctly, on the day of Muhammad's death, he requested to be with his youngest and favorite wife, Aiyesha, but other wives were present. Kadijah was his first wife, and it is my understanding that only after she passed away did he take other wives, but I would have to research that to be certain.
Tradition says that Muhammad died very slowly over a three year period as the result of eating a poisoned dish of lamb served to him by a woman who had a grudge against him.
There are some wonderful links which allow you to download the entire Qu'ran, in English. The one I use has each verse in triplicate translations by Pickthall, Yusufali, and I always forget the third translator. I shall look it up momentarily.
I have an english (yousef ali) and an arabic hard copy of the qaran thanks but yeah Kadijah died in what is know as the Year of Misery when she was 60 odd and Muhammed was still in his forties then he married the other wives.
The third tranlator, whose name I could not remember, is Shakir (along with Yusufali and Pickthall).
Here are two links to Qu'ran translations, but I cannot find the link that I used just last week to get the 3 translations together.
http://www.adam2.org/dir/Society/Rel...uran/index.cgi
http://geocities.com/infoquran/pickth.txt
We also see here, the verse which is the origin of the practice of women taking what is called in some countries Purdah, or the veil.Quote:
Originally Posted by It is forbidden to marry the wife of the Prophet
http://www.kings.edu/womens_history/purdah.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purdah, pro and con
when I was at school I had to tachers who interpprited that ayah in differant ways either the wives of the prophet is just that or its a metaphore for every muslim woman.
Many will recognize the word "polygyny", which means "having more than one wife". "Polyandry" means "having more than one husband". And "pollywannacracker" means you are a parrot who is hungry. (So much for comic relief).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy
In order to evaluate Islam's emancipation of women, we should attempt to explore how women feel about polygynous marriage.
Rabindranath Tagore wrote a short story entitled The Girl Between (Madhyabartini), about a childless wife who nags her husband to take a second wife, but lives to regret it.
In India, Hindus were allowed to take a second wife if the first wife did not object.
This will be a sad story about polygyny. We must keep our eyes peeled for a happy story about polygyny.
The name of the husband in the story is Nivaran and his wife's name is Harasundari
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nivaran
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harasundari
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shailabala
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Originally Posted by Nivaran
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Fo...ML/000173.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Harasundari
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Originally Posted by Some real-life doubts and concerns
http://www.islam-qa.com/QA/e%7CPsych...00.11785.shtmlQuote:
Originally Posted by African Anthropologist Enters Polygynous Marriage
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Originally Posted by Imam's Advice to Unhappy Co-Wife
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Originally Posted by A Happily Married Triple
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Originally Posted by Nightshade
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Originally Posted by Abraham Lincoln
The commandments to "forgive your enemy, love your enemy, bless those who curse you, and repay evil with good" appear to be unique to the New Testament.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oscar Wilde
I have the entire English translation of the Qu'ran as a file on my disk, which I may open with Microsoft word, and do a string search on "enem" which shows me each line which mentions enemy or enemies. I can do a string search on "forgiv" and find every verse which mentions the words "forgiving" "forgive" "forgiven" "forgiveness". This translation has three different translators interpretations for each verse (Shakir, Pickthall, and Yusufali) so one may catch a verse if only ONE of those three chooses to use some form of "enemy" or "forgive".
I have just finished my search, and I have cut and pasted what I feel is a fair representation of passages. There was no point in including every instance of often repeated verses such as "Allah is forgiving". I tried to eliminate needless repetition and past only those passages which say something unique and demonstrative about the notion of forgiveness and ideas about enemies in the Qu'ran.
I have now posted these pasted passages to a page at my website, for the convenience of anyone who is interested in studying them. Posting elsewhere will spare this forum needless bandwidth and diskspace usage.
http://toosmallforsupernova.org/enemyforgiveness.htm
I can honestly say that I do not encounter in the Qu'ran any message to "forgive ones enemies". There are passages which mention enemies in ones own family, and the importance of overlooking their transgressions and holding one's temper. There is no message to "bless those who curse you" or to "to repay evil for good."
It is interesting to note that, since Muhammed was living in the 7th century after Christ, he certainly had ample opportunity to hear such sentiments expressed by Christians.
I think I may have found the verse which Nighshade remembers. When I do find it, I shall post it here.
6:112 is interesting in that it says that Allah intentionally creates certain enemies and adversaries and, were it not for Allah's express will, than such enemies would not exist and act in such adversarial fashion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Surah 3, verse 134
60:1 expressly forbids loving your enemy under certain circumstances:Quote:
Originally Posted by 6:112
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Originally Posted by 60:1
64:14 exhorts us to cover the sins of family members only, making no mention of those who are not related to us.
2:178 speaks of retaliationQuote:
Originally Posted by 64:14
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Originally Posted by 2:178
When we hear the word emancipation we think of slavery. The word slavery is used nowhere in the three translators accessible to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2:221 A slave woman is better...
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Originally Posted by 2:177 Releasing slaves and captives for ransom
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Originally Posted by 3:134 Forgiving Others
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Originally Posted by 3:159 This verse may refer only to the Prophet
Here are some links on loving your enemies from a Christian perspectiveQuote:
Originally Posted by 4:168 No Forgiveness for the Unbeliever
http://www.dougbrittonbooks.com/reso...nemy010424.asp
http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=2323
http://bible.cc/matthew/5-44.htm
http://www.pbc.org/dp/ritchie/4132.html
http://www.whosoever.org/v6i2/tona.html
http://www.jesuswalk.com/lessons/6_27-36.htm
http://douglas7eberman.net/BibleOnWar.html
http://www.4hurtingchristians.com/love.html
http://www.laborersinchrist.org/topics/enemies.htm
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/bi...y/BP0201W2.htm
http://www.biblebell.org/chrislife/prayer.html
http://www.plowcreek.org/bible_pacifism.htm
well according to my dictionary polygamy is more than one spouse (regardlass of sex). Polygyny is more than one wife.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sitaram
polygamy - http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=67&q=polygamy
polygyny - http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=polygyny
Reading Lolita In Tehran - Asar Nafisi
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Originally Posted by Imagine us.. pg 6
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Originally Posted by That room.. pg. 8
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Originally Posted by The University accepts her resignation... pg. 10
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Originally Posted by The joy of teaching marred.. pg. 10
How strange, indeed! One would think that it is precisely those astray who have the greatest need for guidance.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4:168 No Forgiveness for the Unbeliever
Such a passage as this stands in stark contrast to certain Biblical passages.
But, perhaps we might find other, different, passages in the Qu'ran which also run counter to this one.
Such passages as this give pause for thought.
I thought that in context this passage was those who conciously (spelling?) delibratly stray are not forgiven.
Sort of like the ayah
alah refers that you do not do a good deed than a good deed followed by a sin.
Good point! I enjoy our exchanges.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightshade
But for me, it is a matter of guidance, and not forgiveness.
I am at work, on this Monday morning, so time is limited. I shall give more thought to this thread during the coming days.
Since I have taken up so much space in this thread, which I find interesting and challenging, but also I am sure, uncomfortable for many to read, since that which we hold most dear, and that which we vehemently reject can be sensitive and painful to discuss in such a rigorous and analytical fashion.
I have a confession to make to you. I am not Cat Stevens. Well, I guess you didn't think I was. The greatest tribute one can pay to any religion or philosophy or form of government is to embraced it whole heartedly. The entertainer Cat Stevens is an example of someone who turned his whole life around in order to embrace Islam. Only such a person can be said to completely understand the religion. I have much more to say on this topic, and it is necessary for me to acknowledge this "cat stevens" fact of life if we are to go in any great depth into the dialogue which Chava's excellent question has launched.
But I want to tell you a very poignant, true story, that I experienced on the Internet, in Yahoo chat, as I conversed with a young Muslim woman, who called herself Yankin, who was dying with cancer and only had a few months left to live.
I wrote about her on my Goodbye page of my website, a page which I created so that, should I die suddenly, unexpectedly, I would not miss the opportunity to say a few final things to my readers.
I am posting this from the office, at the end of Monday's work day. I shall return to this post and add more to it tonight. I think that there is much which should be said about the threads of our upbringing and culture and family and heritage which become inextricably woven into the very fabric of our hearts and souls. It is important for us to try to understand ourselves and one another, because we are all well aware how our future survival depends on such an understanding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodbye
I feel compassion for young people (under 40) who are by their very nature idealistic and who, therefore, feel compelled to defend fiercely what they have come to consider as absolutes. It is difficult and painful for anyone, whoever and whatever you may be, to place your heritage, your ancestors, your history, your cherished beliefs, under the multicultural microscope of our postmodern world and ask difficult questions. If I analyze things to death or pose very uncomfortable questions, it is because that is what I was trained to do all my life. But do not think that I am without compassion for the ideological struggle which any person goes through in life, male, female, Asian, European, African, Muslim, Catholic, Pentecostal, Hare Krishna, whatever. As Kermit the Frog would say, "Its not easy being green." As the Superman song says, we are all "digging for kryptonite on this one-way street."
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I am resuming my thoughts here Tuesday morning, as I wait for the coffee water to boil. As I awoke, several thoughts (opinions if you will) came to me.
One thought is in regard to one of the letters above from a woman struggling in a polygynous marriage. I shall repost just a few of the sentences (below) which seem the hallmark of martyric resignation to self-sacrifice. The point I would like to make is that self-sacrifice for the sake of another's happiness and the ultimate sacrifice of martyrdom possess a drama and an emotional appeal which transcends any religion or denomination or sect, philosophy, or nationality.
These are the words of a martyr who has become resigned to her fate.Quote:
Originally Posted by A martyr's resignation to self-sacrifice and suffering
If this woman were Christian, then she would be speaking the rhetoric of bearing her cross in life and imitating Jesus in his sufferings.
The expression "fight the good fight" is ink straight out of Paul's pen.
1 Timothy 6:12 - "Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.".
2 Timothy 4:7 - "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:"
http://www.monthly-messenger.org/Topics/TOPIC_Dec00.htm
It is unavoidable that over the course of many centuries, all the various religions and languages, philosophies and cultures, should influence one another and imitate one another in some fashion.
If you listen to acapella byzantine Greek Orthodox chant, you will find certain similarities and resemblances with the chanting and intonation heard in Muslim Masjids.
Consider the sheer literary power and appeal of a story in which a god becomes human and suffers the worst suffings imaginable, all for the sake of saving the entire human species. Whatever else Jesus may or may not be, Jesus is definitely a literary figure or character which has had far reaching influence over the course of 2000 years.
The mystery of Chava's profile revealed:
http://www.cats-central.com/cat-name...cat_names.html
MOSI: Navajo name meaning "cat"
TIVA: Hopi name meaning "dance"
see Chava's profile:
"Do you want to tiva with the mosi?"
http://www.online-literature.com/for...ber.php?u=3992
(Since Chava started this thread, and I like to unravel mysteries).
I have been most curious to hear your reaction to my lengthy posts to your thread.
I have not seen you on-line for some time.