Why Orwell made Goldstein a Jew?

It might be debatable, but Orwell paints a stereotypical image of a Jew for the apparently, but not unequivocally, mythical underground resistance leader named Goldstein. I think it is significant. Orwell knew the Nazi's used the Jews as a scapegoat and that they were persecuted in Soviet Russia.

The character of the Jews as being different but also historically persistent is what Orwell is projecting here and is what is needed for a tyranny's scapegoat. The Jews also discovered conscience and morality which is what Orwell's Party in 1984 stands opposite.

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Originally Posted by Leonard_K

It might be debatable, but Orwell paints a stereotypical image of a Jew for the apparently, but not unequivocally, mythical underground resistance leader named Goldstein. I think it is significant.

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It might be; it was deliberate, but I'd hesitate to second-guess why.

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Originally Posted by Leonard_K

Orwell knew the Nazi's used the Jews as a scapegoat and that they were persecuted in Soviet Russia.

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They've been persecuted for their entire history, and you need to factor in that Jews had conformed to stereotype for centuries in English writing.

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Originally Posted by Leonard_K

The character of the Jews as being different but also historically persistent is what Orwell is projecting here and is what is needed for a tyranny's scapegoat.

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Yet the only mention of cultural bias is against the enemy of the time. I don't see that anti-semitism was any part of the Party's agenda. Orwell may have just been highlighting that in every culture, people will find reasons to hate Jews. As far as I know, he never commented on it. It could just be that Jews were steretypically very clever and secretive, which fits the profile of a resistance leader.

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Originally Posted by Leonard_K

The Jews also discovered conscience and morality which is what Orwell's Party in 1984 stands opposite.

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I think that trying to grant discovery of morality is very dodgy, and trying to tie to Jews is dodgier, several cultured cultures pre-date the Jews.

I'd also note that Trotsky was Jewish.

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Originally Posted by Taliesin

I'd also note that Trotsky was Jewish.

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Possible but unlikely connection, I feel. Orwell had already done Russia.

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

Possible but unlikely connection, I feel. Orwell had already done Russia.

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This wouldn't preclude him from thinking about Russia, as a writer.

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Originally Posted by Eryk

This wouldn't preclude him from thinking about Russia, as a writer.

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Sure - I just don't see why Orwell would have bothered making a statement about Trotsky at that time, and in a story which doesn't fit.

Interesting question, though. You can look at it from several angles as well:

Did Goldstein ever actually exist? If not, why did Orwell choose to use Party propaganda as a place to exhibit a symathetic Jewish character only to have him revealed as a fiction of the Party?

How did Orwell's own mixed feelings on Jews affect the decision?

Was Orwell trying to make a comment on Jews at all? Should we consider O'Brien to be a metaphor for the Irish?

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

Was Orwell trying to make a comment on Jews at all? Should we consider O'Brien to be a metaphor for the Irish?

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That the Party is using Goldstein to exploit antisemitism (the importance of an enemy for uniting the people and diverting their anger) is far more likely than anything to do with O'Brien's name. Stalin and Hitler had antisemitic policies and it's natural that a reader of 1984 would be reminded of them (and Trotsky) whether Orwell intends this or not.

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Originally Posted by Eryk

That the Party is using Goldstein to exploit antisemitism (the importance of an enemy for uniting the people and diverting their anger) is far more likely than anything to do with O'Brien's name. Stalin and Hitler had antisemitic policies and it's natural that a reader of 1984 would be reminded of them (and Trotsky) whether Orwell intends this or not.

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Eryk:

I think you're right.

I don't see an iota of evidence in 1984 that Orwell was himself a bigot. Trotsky came to my mind as I was reading Goldstein's physical description.

Now Goldstein's first name is Emanuel which seemed odd to me. It's Hebrew but it is a title used by Christians for the messiah. Jews use the word but not often as a person's name. I think it is likely Goldstein is supposed to be a character like Trotsky. So I agree.

I can't imagine any connection between the O'brien character being Irish? I actually think his parents may have been from Kenya --- you know, like O'bama.:)

Smith is a very common English name and I am sure that Orwell selected it to make Winston an ordinary person. Orwell's a genius and choosing Winston for his first name is not random. Winston made me think of Winston Churchill often as I read the book.

Churchill fought the Nazis and originated the term "Iron Curtain" as applied to the Soviet hegemony in east Europe. After the second world war he and his Conservative party lost an election to the left leaning Labor Party that instituted socialistic policies like nationalization of certain industrys.

There's no way to know for certain, but I would be surprised if Orwell's picking Winston for our hero's first name did not have a lot to do with Churchill's attitude toward Soviet communism and his repudiation by the public in favor of a socialist leaning government in England in the post-war '40s when the book was written.

Orwell would have us relate to Goldstein as a latter day incarnation of Trotsky the Jew: an outsider vilified both for his idealism and for his Semitic, Mongol-like, facial features.

Winston Churchill prevailed in the face of totalitarian aggression, but his latter-day namesake faces a far more formidable foe.

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Originally Posted by Eryk

That the Party is using Goldstein to exploit antisemitism (the importance of an enemy for uniting the people and diverting their anger) is far more likely than anything to do with O'Brien's name.

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Except the Party doesn't do that with Goldstein. The Two-Minute Hate uses Goldstein with the Eurasian army rather than a cabal of Jews.

And if we're thinking that the names of Goldstein and Winston are designed to be meaningful, then surely Orwell chose an Irish name for O'Brien with a reason in mind?

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Originally Posted by Eryk

Stalin and Hitler had antisemitic policies and it's natural that a reader of 1984 would be reminded of them (and Trotsky) whether Orwell intends this or not.

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I'm sure he intended to convey the Jewish angle, but not that the Party was anti-semitic.

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Originally Posted by Leonard_K

Eryk:

I think you're right.

I don't see an iota of evidence in 1984 that Orwell was himself a bigot.

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I wouldn't say Orwell was a bigot, but he held some bigoted, steretypical views on Jews and if he had a deeper meaning for Goldstein, there was no reason for him not to articulate in the book, with Goldstein being a symathetic - if fictional - character.

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Originally Posted by Leonard_K

Trotsky came to my mind as I was reading Goldstein's physical description.

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Except Trotsky never lived long enough to have white hair. Even as a corpse, his hair is only mildly grey.

Remember also that Goldstein is played by an actor in the 2MH.

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Originally Posted by Leonard_K

Now Goldstein's first name is Emanuel which seemed odd to me. It's Hebrew but it is a title used by Christians for the messiah. Jews use the word but not often as a person's name. I think it is likely Goldstein is supposed to be a character like Trotsky. So I agree.

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The Hebrew, and accepted, meaning of Emmanuel is "God with us", which indeed fits with the idea of Goldstein as a messianic figure, which is how he's intended.

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Originally Posted by Leonard_K

I can't imagine any connection between the O'brien character being Irish? I actually think his parents may have been from Kenya --- you know, like O'bama.:)

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:lol:

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Originally Posted by Leonard_K

Smith is a very common English name and I am sure that Orwell selected it to make Winston an ordinary person. Orwell's a genius and choosing Winston for his first name is not random. Winston made me think of Winston Churchill often as I read the book.

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The funny thing is, christian names meant a lot more to Orwell than surnames, as evinced by his own name. He chose George for its Englishness, then chose a random surname - assumed to be the river near which he was living at the time.

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Originally Posted by Leonard_K

There's no way to know for certain, but I would be surprised if Orwell's picking Winston for our hero's first name did not have a lot to do with Churchill's attitude toward Soviet communism and his repudiation by the public in favor of a socialist leaning government in England in the post-war '40s when the book was written.

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You just can't leave those socialists alone, can you?

:D

I agree that Winston C's anti-communism may have played a part, but I really think it's to make Winston S more English than the English. I don't think his anti-socialism would have played a part as that was Orwell's side of the political fence.

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Originally Posted by Gladys

Orwell would have us relate to Goldstein as a latter day incarnation of Trotsky the Jew: an outsider vilified both for his idealism and for his Semitic, Mongol-like, facial features.

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I think you're mixing your faces - the Eurasians had the mongoloid features.

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

I think you're mixing your faces - the Eurasians had the mongoloid features.

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I intended 'mongoloid' to be understood metaphorically - the party demonises Goldstein, racially and otherwise.

Perhaps the name "O'Brien" has something to do with English prejudice that views the Irish as troublesome upstarts.

perhaps to show how close we are to this kind of culture, was written just after ww2 and the holocaust(or shoah) in which many masses of people were mislead into anti semetism, and to show the paralell to the possibility of this happening. My question is doesn't Goldstein seem somewhat like OSAMA BIN LADEN?

While reading 1984 the fact that goldstein was a jew brought this to my mind

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartacist_League

most of the prominent members were jews

It's quite clear that Goldstein was made Jewish deliberately. It's not a random name.

The question of whether Goldstein existed is left unanswered, so the name isn't necessarily of a Character (therefore chosen by Orwell) but possibly the name given by the party for their invented nemesis. So Orwell's statement may be that the Party would use an explicitly Jewish name for their enemy.

I don't see that the fact that he had "done Russia" would tell against Goldstein being based on Trotsky. Certainly, in terms of physical description, BB sounds a good deal like a physical description of Stalin.

It makes me sick with annoyance, but I'm fairly convinced that Orwell hadn't much time for the Irish - in "Notes on Nationalism" he dismisses the idea that the Irish could self-govern without British protection as a delusion, which, reading as an Irishwoman, is a view of the Irish as patronising and viciously dismissive as Edmund Spenser. His prejudiced views lead him to misread the writings of Sean O'Casey, whom he refers to in the same essay - O'Casey was more interested in social equality than Irish independence, and was certainly not the examplar of the Irish Nationalist Author which Orwell appears to think him.

He also mentions that those who were neutral or pacifist during WW2 are objectively pro-Fascist, or demonstrably pro-Fascist, or something to that effect. Winston Churchill pronounced the Irish "knaves" for their neutrality, and Orwell would appear to agree. If that is that case, the "pro-Fascist Irishman" may have been lingering in the back of his mind when he named his character.

I've heard an idea put forward that the Party is based on the Roman Catholic Church, with its strictly hierarchical structure, insistence on purity of thought, word and deed, emphasising sexual purity, threat of Hell (Room 101), and belief system based on a figurehead whose existence can neither be proved nor disproved. If that is the case, then the O'Brien name fits well, given that Catholicism would have been strongly associated with the Irish at that time. However, most of the above descriptions can be used for any religion, and I do not see that they are specific to the Catholic Church. The only exception to this is Transubstantiation, which requires doublethink - you see that you are eating blessed bread, but must believe that it is not blessed bread, but the Body of Christ. However, I reckon that this is overthinking it a touch.

Was Churchill pronouncing the "Irish" as knaves for their neutrality or the Irish state?
I would be interested to know in view of the fact that my father from Skibbereen met my mother in England during the war and chose to join the RAF. His view was that if its good enough to live in, then its good enough to fight for. His younger brother Tommy Walsh went down as a gunner on The Prince of Wales. Only the elder brother remained in the relative safety of a neutral Ireland.
As an tangential aside to the "knave" question, did not Churchill get on famously with Michael Collins (The Big Fella) when the met in London? An association which might be linked with his later assasination.

Manichaean,

I'm afraid I can't locate the quote. The only reference I can find on the web is to the VE day speech which is definitely aimed at the Irish government, as opposed to the people. However, that is not the quote I meant, which dated from earlier in the war. It is a quote that I remember hearing during my childhood, and I may be misremembering the exact wording. However, Churchill did disapprove of and criticise the Irish for their neutrality, and many articles may be found in support of this by a simple search on the web.

My citation of Churchill's remarks was not intended to spark any debate about history or neutrality, but to display that there was a feeling in England at that time that the Irish State, and by extension the Irish, were pro-Fascist and not to be trusted, and that this may have been in the back of Orwell's mind when he was creating or naming characters.

Just realised that this came out sounding snottier than I intended - sorry!