Arthurian Literature

In response/request to a few members who have expressed interest in Arthurian Lit/Legend.
I was asked if I had read The Mists of Avalon, which I have so shall we start with that?

I read it a few weeks ago and although the genealogy doesn't mesh with some of the older stories that I prefer (but thats to be expected as there is no standard) I enjoyed the book. I really liked that it was from Morgains POV as I am a fan. I also was pleased to see references to other literature of the time such as Beowulf and The Wanderer. I had previously seen the movie,which is good, but as usual the book is much better and much more complex. I think Bradley did a great job keeping the "historical flavor" considering that it was written in 1982.

Sooo many things to discuss with Arthurian lit. so lets see what we can come up with!

I've read quite a bit of Arthurian Lit. The Mary Stewart books are by far my favourite. Mists Of Avalon is amazing. I couldnt get into Sword and the stone. Found it a bit wishywashy. Pendragons banner was an interesting take. More of a historical approach.

I guess I should post a little bit of my reading thus far.
I am currently reading Malory. I have read a fair amount of the classic stuff such as Geoffrey, De Troyes, Wace, Laymon, Culhwch and Olwen etc....as well as some more modern (relativly) stuff, Bradley, Twain etc...Hope to get around to Cervantes this summer.Definatly in the next couple of months I'll read Tennyson.

I'm not going to lie, I am bored of so much Arthur. I think it comes with the fact that he is the quintessential English myth, but really, since the time of the Victorians, there has been far too much written about the Cycle. Every mediocre fantasy writer, and some perhaps not so mediocre ones, in England, have done their take on Arthur. I think it is such an exhausted topic - people need to new myths to interpret, but I think Arthur serves still the perfect model.

The reason? after world War I, the English pastoral went to the toilet. Now, by weaving Arthur again, they can recreate that pre-industrial romantic England that really can only exist in fiction. And then, to shake things up more, along come 5000 other writers who decide to undercut the myth, so not only do we have a billion Arthur books, we also have a Billion counter-Arthur books. Really, I think the world needs a new fantastical vision. But yeah, The Mists Of Avalon is perhaps the best of the lot.

I am inclined to agree with you JBI on the fact that so much has been written and it can get tiring. That is why I mentioned the Traditional authors and texts in my last post. I find it interesting to take an historical view, The Matter of Britain, and the development of the texts and thus the myths. I tend to, right or wrong, put Arthurian stories into two categories. 1. Legitimate Literature (I know thats subjective) and 2. Marketing to teenage boys lost in the world of fantasy (not that theres anything wrong with that).I try to stick to the former.
I think that another reason that it is so widely popular is that it contains so many archetypal characters that they remain relevant.Combine this with the fact that one may write anything they wish as there are no copyright issues, and the possibilities are infinite.

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Originally Posted by JBI

I'm not going to lie, I am bored of so much Arthur. I think it comes with the fact that he is the quintessential English myth, but really, since the time of the Victorians, there has been far too much written about the Cycle. Every mediocre fantasy writer, and some perhaps not so mediocre ones, in England, have done their take on Arthur. I think it is such an exhausted topic - people need to new myths to interpret, but I think Arthur serves still the perfect model.

The reason? after world War I, the English pastoral went to the toilet. Now, by weaving Arthur again, they can recreate that pre-industrial romantic England that really can only exist in fiction. And then, to shake things up more, along come 5000 other writers who decide to undercut the myth, so not only do we have a billion Arthur books, we also have a Billion counter-Arthur books. Really, I think the world needs a new fantastical vision. But yeah, The Mists Of Avalon is perhaps the best of the lot.

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If you're getting tired of the actual Arthurian tradition but still have an interest in medieval lit there are a few other texts that might be of interest. Roman de la Rose (Romance of the Rose) is a great medieval text circa 1300ish, and there are plenty of great translations out there. Another that might interest you is The Mabingion, compiled from a set of manuscripts potentially dating back to around 1100. This text in particular is fun to work with because all of the stories are transcribed from oral tales. However, they are certainly the stories that ended up directly influencing medieval romance and the Arthurian tradition, so you see a lot of familiar characters but in quite unfamiliar scenes. Another that I've heard great things about but never gotten around to reading myself is Spenser's The Faerie Queene.

As far as anything after Tennyson's Idylls, I personally am not really too interested in where Arthurian lit headed. It seems like most authors at this point (or at least the ones who had their heads on straight) realized that the Victorians had nearly over-romanticized the quest narratives in trying to make them a source of British mythos during the imperial periods.

I adore Arthurian Literature, and I try to read as many books as I can find about Arthur and his legend, although I really like to read non- fiction books concerning him and the particular era. As for The Mists Of Avalon, well, it is one of the books I've read over and over again. In fact, I am going to read it once again soon.

When I was a kid, I was really intrigued by the Arthurian legends after reading a children's book (the one with a cassette tape accompanying it... It was in the 90's, CD's aren't created yet.) but I misplaced it so I didn't have it now.

Some books related to King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table (aside from "Mists of Avalon") which I've read:
1. The Squire's Tale by Gerald Morris
2. The Squire, His Knight and His Lady by Gerald Morris
3. A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court by Mark Twain (I really enjoyed this book.)

But really, is Morgan le Fay really evil? I'd like to think of her as an ally of the good.

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But really, is Morgan le Fay really evil? I'd like to think of her as an ally of the good.

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Good question. My first instinct is to ask "what is evil?" I've given up on the human concepts of good and evil because they are just that, concepts. Assuming they do exist; however, it would be a stretch to call Morgaine evil,IMHO. I believe her in most cases to do what she believes is right, and how cant that be considered evil just because it happens to contradict the norm. M.O.A. is a good example of this. Consider also: After taking care of the Saxons, there was relative peace in the land and during such times people tend to get complacent. Now what motivation would they have to move forward in their chivalric pursuits were it not for Morgain stiring up the cauldron every now and then, as it were? I think SGGK a good example. Morgaine placed Gawain in a tight situation to teach him a lesson knowing that the rest of the court would follow his example ( the green belt) and thus the rest of Britain would follow the example of Arthur's court. How can this be evil?
Short answer. No. Morgaine le Fey is not evil.

I agree with you, and that's exactly why I love "Mists Of Avalon" so much. I think it goes far beyond the simplification of the "evil whitch" stereotype. Even when I think about the main- if I can use the term- version of the Arthurian Legend, which describes Morgan as the temptress who traps Arthur, I cannot bring myself to dislike her. After all, I look upon her as a victim too, taking in mind that Igraine was trapped by Merlin through Uther's transformation, leading to Gorlois' death.

YES............which brings up another major theme, that they, and we, seem to be largely victims of circumstance or fate if you will, regardless of how we try to manage our own (and others!)destinies. Even Merlin fell victim.

Ahhh! You beat me to it, TalmadgeMonroe! I was just about to start an Arthurian thread, since I too have been having some detailed discussions about it in PMs. But since I'm late to the party....thanks for starting it. You're right, there is much to discuss within the Arthurian canon.

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Originally Posted by JBI

I'm not going to lie, I am bored of so much Arthur. I think it comes with the fact that he is the quintessential English myth, but really, since the time of the Victorians, there has been far too much written about the Cycle

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JBI, most of the time I agree with your opinions on things, but I'm passionate about Arthurian literature. May I suggest that perhaps the reason you take issue with Arthurian stuff is because you're focusing on the stuff written "since the time of the Victorians". Personally, I'm much more interested in texts written in the medieval period, much closer to the origins of Arthur.

And yes, many mediocre writers have written their own take on the Arthur legend, especially in the twentieth century, but if you ignore the "popular literature" versions there is plenty of serious scholarship out there. Sometimes I think the very mass - layers upon layers - of scholarship turns some people off of Arthurian literature, but I can think of other fields (Dante, Shakespeare, just to name two) where that is also true. To me, the fact that Arthuriana continues to thrive is proof that there something worth studying.

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Originally Posted by TalmadgeMonroe

I am currently reading Malory. I have read a fair amount of the classic stuff such as Geoffrey, De Troyes, Wace, Laymon, Culhwch and Olwen etc....as well as some more modern (relativly) stuff, Bradley, Twain etc...Hope to get around to Cervantes this summer.Definatly in the next couple of months I'll read Tennyson.

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Ooh, I'm also making my way through Malory. I'm trudging through Book X (by far, the longest book)....where are you? I, too, have read some of the older stuff. I took a class in my senior year of college where we focused on the Welsh, Breton, and Old French sources. My favorites amongst those were the Dream of Rhonabwy from the Mabinogion, Lanval by Marie de France, and the romances of Chretien de Troyes. I just bought a copy of Tennyson's Idylls, which I plan to read after finishing Malory, and hopefully I'll get to Twain sometime this summer.

As for the Mists of Avalon, I read it in my high school years and it was the book that started my obsession with Arthurian literature. Since then, I read T.H. White's The Once and Future King three or four times and it's become my favorite book. I think it's brilliant the way White works the Arthurian legend to his own agenda, all the while inserting sly little winks to Malory throughout.

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Originally Posted by TalmadgeMonroe

I think SGGK a good example. Morgaine placed Gawain in a tight situation to teach him a lesson knowing that the rest of the court would follow his example ( the green belt) and thus the rest of Britain would follow the example of Arthur's court. How can this be evil?

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I don't think it's quite so simple. Morgan isn't exactly displayed in a flattering light in SGGK. The Pearl poet makes it very clear that Morgan sent the Green Knight to Camelot out of jealousy, NOT out of some indirect way to show that Gawain is a noble knight (which is questionable throughout). You can't argue that Morgan is "not evil" just because Gawain did not get hurt. The Green Knight would've struck off Gawain's head if not for the girdle, and Morgan couldn't have known that Gawain would win the Lady Bertilak's love while not dishonoring himself. I think it's quite clear that Morgan intended to kill one of Arthur's knights and it was pure luck that Gawain didn't die. That makes Morgan malicious and deceitful at the very least.

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Originally Posted by Wilde woman

I don't think it's quite so simple. Morgan isn't exactly displayed in a flattering light in SGGK. The Pearl poet makes it very clear that Morgan sent the Green Knight to Camelot out of jealousy, NOT out of some indirect way to show that Gawain is a noble knight (which is questionable throughout). You can't argue that Morgan is "not evil" just because Gawain did not get hurt. The Green Knight would've struck off Gawain's head if not for the girdle, and Morgan couldn't have known that Gawain would win the Lady Bertilak's love while not dishonoring himself. I think it's quite clear that Morgan intended to kill one of Arthur's knights and it was pure luck that Gawain didn't die. That makes Morgan malicious and deceitful at the very least.

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Ahhhhh Wilde Woman, I knew I would get a response to that view of SGGK!! Thank you. I think we could do a whole thread on SGGK alone.

Consider this please:

Gawain a noble knight? RELATIVE to the rest of the knights,yes. Morgaine would have known this and that he would be the one that stands up for Arthur.
I don't think we will ever know if Gawain won Lady Bertilak's love but it was her role in the game to act as if he did.All part of the bigger plan."And the wooing of my wife-it was all my scheme!" (Line 2361)
Most importantly it was not the girdle, or luck, that saved Gawain.
"he gathered up the grim ax and GUIDED IT WELL" "LET the barb at the blade's end brush the bare throat;" (lines 2309-10)"I could have dealt more directly, and done you some harm." (line 2344) The GK knew what he was doing.



This is the great and fun thing about Arthurian lit. and having so many texts. It makes for endless interpretation which is what lit. is all about!

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Originally Posted by TalmadgeMonroe

I think we could do a whole thread on SGGK alone.

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Hi Talmadge, you're right. SGGK is a complex work and we could do a whole discussion on just this one Arthurian text.

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Originally Posted by TalmadgeMonroe

Morgaine would have known this and that he would be the one that stands up for Arthur.

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I disagree. There's no way Morgan could've known for sure that Gawain would be the one who stood up for Arthur. How could she know that it wouldn't be Lancelot or Tristan or Gareth? In retrospect, however, it makes sense that she intended the Green Knight to challenge Gawain, since we know that she prepped Lady Bertilak to fool him. Since Gawain has a reputation as a notorious womanizer, it makes sense that he was the intended target.

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Originally Posted by TalmadgeMonroe

Most importantly it was not the girdle, or luck, that saved Gawain."he gathered up the grim ax and GUIDED IT WELL" "LET the barb at the blade's end brush the bare throat;" (lines 2309-10)"I could have dealt more directly, and done you some harm." (line 2344) The GK knew what he was doing.

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These lines prove that the Green Knight did not intend to kill Gawain at that very moment. But the reason behind that is, I believe, because he saw that Gawain had the girdle. Now, according to the rules of the game between Bertilak and Gawain, Gawain should've given the girdle to Bertilak the night after he received it from the lady. Had he done so, he wouldn't have the girdle and, perhaps, the GK wouldn't have been so lenient.

What I'm trying to say is that all the events that happen are conditional; one event in the chain doesn't happen unless another, previous event causes it to happen. And I argue that Morgan could not possibly have that sort of foresight. Gawain only takes up the GK's challenge because no other knight will. Gawain only finds Bertilak's castle by chance. Gawain makes a decision not to honor his part of the game, but also not to sleep with Lady Bertilak (which seems contradictory...how could Morgan have predicted these contradictory aspects of Gawain's character?). It's because he won't sleep with her that Lady Bertilak gives Gawain the girdle in the first place.

Finally, I think it could be argued that the GK is not just an agent of Morgan, but has some agency of his own. I think that Morgan, even if she didn't want the GK to behead Gawain, would at least want him to humiliate him...by revealing that not only did Gawain NOT abide by the rules of the game, but that he dallied with his lord's wife. Instead, the GK forgives Gawain, allows him to keep the girdle, and eventually the girdle becomes a symbol of honor. Even if Morgan did not plan in the beginning to kill Gawain, she still (as far as I can tell) planned to humiliate him.

The only way I can see anyone justifying Morgan as "not evil" is by claiming that she does have foresight of every single event (which would make her the equivalent of God), and thus enabling Gawain to prove his worth...but only after enduring a series of humiliating events. Is this what you're claiming?

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Originally Posted by Wilde woman

Now, according to the rules of the game between Bertilak and Gawain, Gawain should've given the girdle to Bertilak the night after he received it from the lady. Had he done so, he wouldn't have the girdle and, perhaps, the GK wouldn't have been so lenient.

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This seems backwards to me.If Gawain had given the girdle back, L.B would have thought Gawain was playing by the rules and been lenient, but showing up with the girdle on he would have thought WTF? and TRIED to kill Gawain. But he didn't which leads me to believe that it was his (Morgaine's)intent all along to spare Gawain.

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Originally Posted by Wilde woman

And I argue that Morgan could not possibly have that sort of foresight. Gawain only takes up the GK's challenge because no other knight will.

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Why not? Fey, Sorceress, not unreasonable that she could have known this. Gawain being the most loyal knight to his king is the obvious taker of the challenge. IMO.

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Originally Posted by Wilde woman

Gawain only finds Bertilak's castle by chance.

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He crosses himself three times and sees LB's castle. I don't think this is by chance I think it part of his lesson, that being if he uses the faith he professes to have properly, it works. As we see with the girdle however, he is misplacing his faith. As I see it the use of faith is the major theme. It is a part of the transition from Paganism to Christianity. Gawain backslides.

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Originally Posted by Wilde woman

Finally, I think it could be argued that the GK is not just an agent of Morgan, but has some agency of his own. I think that Morgan, even if she didn't want the GK to behead Gawain, would at least want him to humiliate him...by revealing that not only did Gawain NOT abide by the rules of the game, but that he dallied with his lord's wife. Instead, the GK forgives Gawain, allows him to keep the girdle, and eventually the girdle becomes a symbol of honor. Even if Morgan did not plan in the beginning to kill Gawain, she still (as far as I can tell) planned to humiliate him.

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Agreed. And with that humiliation comes the lesson learned for the hero to return home and teach what he has learned to others. Classic hero quest format. The problem here for Morgain is that it DID become a symbol of honor to the rest of the court but not for Gawain. I doubt seriously that the GK would have spared Gawain by his own choice. Would you want to face the wrath of Morgaine for not sticking to the plan? I wouldn't.

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Originally Posted by Wilde woman

The only way I can see anyone justifying Morgan as "not evil" is by claiming that she does have foresight of every single event (which would make her the equivalent of God), and thus enabling Gawain to prove his worth...but only after enduring a series of humiliating events. Is this what you're claiming?

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I think that what it comes down to for me is in the interpretation of "evil". Again what I do claim is that Morgaine played her role with the foresight of how events would play out attempting to progress Britain's spirituality via Gawain. A pain in the *** sure, but not evil. I don't think it a stretch to think that she would be able to do this and mostly with logic. After all, if she can turn LB green and have him survive a beheading, how hard could it be to pull off the rest of the plan?

Okay, a couple of points before I dive back in. First, I admit I'm not sure what to make of the Green Knight. I'm not sure if he is and has always been some sort of magical creature who can survive a beheading or if Morgan enchanted him for the sole purpose of challenging Gawain. And if so, is this a spell she can activate and deactivate at will? If Gawain had tried to behead Bertilak at his castle, when he wasn't in the guise of the GK, would he have succeeded? Or would Bertilak still be invincible?

I've always argued on the side that Bertilak is or was once human and was only recently enchanted by Morgan. That is why I think the ending of SGGK is out of character for him...in that he spares Gawain. I think he breaks from Morgan's plan by not taking Gawain's head off. I think it's a human failing...because he feels pity for Gawain because he's familiar with Lady Bertilak's games. Of course, the poet is able to frame it all as a lesson in faith for Gawain. But I think my opinion dissents somewhat from the accepted interpretation.

To me, Bertilak - not Morgan - is the key. We have no idea who he is what he is or where he comes from. And I've always found it intriguing that nobody has every found an acceptable etymology for his name. It's unprecedented...but, then again, so was the Pearl poet.

Back to our discussion....

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Originally Posted by TalmadgeMonroe

Why not? Fey, Sorceress, not unreasonable that she could have known this.

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Not necessarily. Even Merlin doesn't have unlimited prescience. I could accept that she might be able to foresee some of the adventure...maybe that Gawain would be the one to accept the challenge, but not all the other events that fall into place. Sorry, that's one place we'll have to agree to disagree. What happens to Gawain is, to me, much too detailed and sometimes even contradictory for anyone to foresee.

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Originally Posted by TalmadgeMonroe

Gawain being the most loyal knight to his king is the obvious taker of the challenge. IMO.

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In the Arthurian tradition, there are any number of knights that could be called the "most loyal" to Arthur. It's only because of the title of the poem that we know Gawain will be the one to take the GK's challenge, not out of any all-encompassing title that he's Arthur's most loyal knight.

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Originally Posted by TalmadgeMonroe

As I see it the use of faith is the major theme.

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Okay, agreed. Christian faith is one of the big themes of the work. But, again, I don't think Morgan could've foreseen this, considering that she usually is portrayed as the exact opposite of the Christian model; she's usually pagan. Fey, witch, sorceress...it's all just a Christian way of saying OTHER is big capital letters. It doesn't make sense to me that Gawain would pray three times to God and bam! he would find Morgan la Fey's enchanted (pagan) castle. Which is one of the reasons I have a hard time accepting your interpretation that Morgan is "not evil" (evil usually being synonymous with "pagan", especially in a Christian work). She is generally allied with the pagan; what would be her motive for helping Gawain perfect his Christian faith?

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Originally Posted by TalmadgeMonroe

Again what I do claim is that Morgaine played her role with the foresight of how events would play out attempting to progress Britain's spirituality via Gawain.

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Again, why? What interest does Morgan have in seeing Arthur's knights gain prestige?

Look, I'm not adverse to classifying Morgan in general as "not evil". I think there are certainly pieces of Arthurian literature out there that show her in more or less sympathetic lights (Mists of Avalon, for one). And even in the works where she is most definitely evil (Malory), she is given just cause for turning against Arthur. She's never something as simple as a cackling witch bending over a boiling cauldron, which is one of the beauties of Arthurian literature. But IMO there isn't much evidence for labeling her a good character in SGGK.

I really enjoyed The Once and Future King by T.H. White. I have not yet read The Mists of Avalon, but I certainly intend to.

So we've touched on a fair amount of stuff here and it seems that Morgaines motivation/purpose is the big question. We've looked at some details but maybe I should zoom out and give a larger picture of my take on this. In the begining of SGGK the knights and ladies are all frolicking around the castle with not a care in the world. This is a problem. Growth does not happen without adversity. Arthur's court claims to be Christian, but they are young, spiritually, they need guidance. Now in rides this big green scary hulking symbol of Paganism. This represents where they came from. And the journey, figurative and literal, begins. So Gawain wanders around in liminal space for almost a year. He "finds" LB's castle which represents the end of his journey physically as well as ideally. And so the game begins in which Gawain plays well showing that he/Arthur's court are are decent folk but it is not good enough. This is shown in the accepting of the green belt, representing Paganism, and Gawain hoping it will save his life. So the GK taunts him, showing him his folly with the third swing of the ax. He is saying to Gawain, "Dude, I sooo could have taken your head off!" but a dead knight can't learn and teach a lesson. So Gawain keeps the green belt as a reminder that his old way of thinking and doing things are not going to keep him alive physically or spiritually. He must continue on the path he is on, there is no going back, if your not progressing your regressing, he not busy being born is busy dying, if you forget where you came from you're doomed to return........... So. Now the question of the orchestrator. Good/Evil Right/Wrong Christian/Pagan...these things matter not. What matters is progress. Morgaine knows this. She doesn't care about the chosen faith of Arthur's court, but she knows that any chosen faith will be better than that pride driven notion of chivalry that those childish knights keep prattling on about. Morgaine cares about the future of the people, Arthur cares about himself. So we all seem to have this notion of what side of the fence is a given character on, what side of the fence are WE on? but the reality is, there is no fence.

Ok,Ok., I know this is not the "popular" or standard take on SGGK, but what fun is that?

I don't have much to add to the discussion, other than to say that I really like Malory. I asked a question some time ago on this board, but got no answers - does anyone know if there is (or has ever been) an affordable unexpurgated copy of the Winchester Manuscript available? I've read the Caxton version and have always been intrigued by the thought of the Winchester version.

The only other Arthurian things I've read are Wolfram Von Eschenbach's 'Parzival', which I found very hard going indeed, and Simon Armitage's version of 'The Green Knight', which I liked. I think someone also mentioned Cervantes - who I wouldn't really describe as Arthurian - I read 'Don Quixote' about a year ago, and loved it.

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Originally Posted by mystery_spell

I really enjoyed The Once and Future King by T.H. White.

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Hi mystery spell! The Once and Future King is my all-time favorite book. I've read it several times and I just love it. I think it's one of the few quality books written in the past century that makes the Arthur legend accessible to the average reader. Of course, White does take quite a few liberties with the legend. What's your favorite part? One of mine is definitely the end of Book 3, where Lancelot miraculously cures Sir Urr and regains his faith.

Talmadge - that's an interesting take on SGGK. I agree with most of what you say - paganism vs. Christianity, questioning traditional notions of chivalry - but I just don't agree with you about Morgan. *shrug* Out of curiosity, have you written about SGGK? I wrote a paper about four key colors in the text, focusing on how the colors come to symbolize different things at different times - how their meaning is not stable.

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Originally Posted by Basil Valentine

I asked a question some time ago on this board, but got no answers - does anyone know if there is (or has ever been) an affordable unexpurgated copy of the Winchester Manuscript available?

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That is a good question. My version, too, is Caxton's, though the editor gives the bibliographic information for the 1967 edition of the Winchester manuscript. I'll PM it to you. I have no idea of whether a copy would be affordable or not.

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Originally Posted by Basil Valentine

Simon Armitage's version of 'The Green Knight'

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That's the new translation, isn't it? I've seen it at bookstores and have been tempted to pick it up, but I don't like paying retail price for books. Would you say it's a good translation? My Middle English professor offered a copy as a prize for an optional assignment, but I chose not to do the work.

Since Malory has been mentioned, anybody want to suggest a topic of discussion on him? I'm still working my way through Malory, but I'm about halfway through.