God Exist

[SIZE="4"]This was emailed to me , thought of sharing it with you :-)


This is one of the best explanations of why God allows pain and suffering that I have seen

A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut and his beard trimmed.
As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation.
They talked about so many things and various subjects.
When they eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said:
"I don't believe that God exists."



"Why do you say that?" asked the customer. "Well, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God doesn't exist.
Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people?
Would there be abandoned children?

If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain.
I can't imagine a loving God who would allow all of these things."
The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond because he didn't want to start an argument.
The barber finished his job and the customer left the shop.

Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair and an untrimmed beard.
He looked dirty and unkempt. The customer turned back and entered the barber shop again and he said to the barber:
"You know what? Barbers do not exist."
"How can you say that?" asked the surprised barber.
"I am here, and I am a barber. And I just worked on you!"
"No!" the customer exclaimed. "Barbers don't exist because
if they did, there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like that man outside."


"Ah, but barbers DO exist! That's what happens when people do not come to me."
"Exactly!" affirmed the customer. "That's the point! God, too, DOES exist!
That's what happens when people do not go to Him and don't look to Him for help.
That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world."


If you think God exists, send this to other people---
If you think God does not exist, delete it!


BE BLESSED & BE A BLESSING TO OTHERS!


http://www.coolfreeimages.net/images...flowers_15.jpg

That was really beautiful, thank you!

Flawed logic....but a great story

Im sure there are lots of people praying everyday to god to be relieved of their suffering, hunger and misery.

Perhaps there not trying hard enough eh?

Nice.

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Originally Posted by oopsycandy

Im sure there are lots of people praying everyday to god to be relieved of their suffering, hunger and misery.

Perhaps there not trying hard enough eh?

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i dnt think its about trying hard ... i would rather say its about being honest
and not only remembering God when you need but we should always do remember Him.

cute story. i've been seeing a lot of these appeal to simplicity god stories of late. their fallacious content doesnt seem to bother believers...which bothers me

If there is a god , then there can be no suffering. unless, an acknowledged assent towards god eliminates suffering. If there are barbers, there can be no unkempt men. but an awareness of the barber and his services eliminates the utter hopelessness of being an unkempt man. The logic is for the most part consistent. Valid argument, but the soundness of the premises are definitely in question. Gods are supposed to eliminate suffering, while barbers are supposed to prevent men from being unkempt. The point of debate is the relation between being unkempt, and human suffering.

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Originally Posted by billyjack

cute story. i've been seeing a lot of these appeal to simplicity god stories of late. their fallacious content doesnt seem to bother believers...which bothers me

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Hi Billy,

Agreed. Its also nonsense. My grandmother believed in the Christian god with all her heart. Apparently god didn't trust her or something because she was smitten with a particularly nasty cancer in her late sixties and suffered tremendously for almost a decade before passing.

So: "That's what happens when people do not go to Him and don't look to Him for help. That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world."

...is pure crap. I'm sorry, and I mean no disrespect to anyone, but this statement is simply not true. Folks that 'go to Him' still suffer as much as those who choose another path.

Blessings,
Doug

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Originally Posted by Wintermute

Hi Billy,

Agreed. Its also nonsense. My grandmother believed in the Christian god with all her heart. Apparently god didn't trust her or something because she was smitten with a particularly nasty cancer in her late sixties and suffered tremendously for almost a decade before passing.

So: "That's what happens when people do not go to Him and don't look to Him for help. That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world."

...is pure crap. I'm sorry, and I mean no disrespect to anyone, but this statement is simply not true. Folks that 'go to Him' still suffer as much as those who choose another path.

Blessings,
Doug

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You can't say that she got cancer coz God didn't trust her .. that's silly.. !
Why can't we say that when a person gets sick , or even when anything bad happened, its to see how human being can be patient & know that this is all written for him , Be patient & accepting whateva that happens to us.
Why can't we do that instead of say that GOD IS BAD , God ALLOW ALL THE SUFFERING OF PEOPLE...

Nothing happens to us but we have been a reason or part in that.

Chain email philosophy is about a step below bathroom graffiti philosophy.

And the point of this earth shatteringly beautiful treatise on human unhappiness seems to be that if you ask God to get rid of your suffering, he will do it (though if we follow the barber analogy you might have to pay him).

So following this logic, all those who suffer haven't asked God to alleviate said suffering. Therefore those who both suffer and pray must be doing so insincerely. That's a pretty broad statement, all unhappy people are bad at praying, or are secret atheists.

Hoope I think your missing the point of my post and I think Wintermute was alluding to a similar point

Your OP states quite clearly *That's what happens when people do not go to him, and don't look to him for help. Thats why there so much pain and sufffering in the world*

I actually find the suggestion in the OP that the people I loved who have died horribly, or that the millions of people on this planet who are starving and suffering everyday, are doing so because they have failed to subscribe to this idea of a deity offensive.

If I had to choose between being poked in the eye by my barber with a pair of scissors or having my head pulled off by the god this is supposed to prove the truth of, I'd take my chances with the god.

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Originally Posted by oopsycandy

Hoope I think your missing the point of my post and I think Wintermute was alluding to a similar point

Your OP states quite clearly *That's what happens when people do not go to him, and don't look to him for help. Thats why there so much pain and sufffering in the world*

I actually find the suggestion in the OP that the people I loved who have died horribly, or that the millions of people on this planet who are starving and suffering everyday, are doing so because they have failed to subscribe to this idea of a deity offensive.

If I had to choose between being poked in the eye by my barber with a pair of scissors or having my head pulled off by the god this is supposed to prove the truth of, I'd take my chances with the god.

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Agreed. 100%.

There are a great deal of people who appeal to God, who fervently believe in Him, and who ask for his help- not in petty issues, either. And they still die horrible deaths, lead tragic lives and suffer.

Another one? Read before posting, geez. This isn't a cut and paste forum - it's for discussion of literary texts. Why don't people stop forwarding their emails here?

As far as I'm concerned, this has nothing to do with the bible, or any other text, and instead insults my beliefs as an atheist.

These boards are not for converting - if I'm not posting topics like "why religious people are idiots", and not copying and pasting from Dawkins or whomever, why should religious people be allowed the same freedom?

Basically I find this insulting. It says that because I am not Christian, or whatever monotheistic religion this seems to follow (though I think it is Christian, because I know Jewish Dogma would consider this ridiculous) I deserve all the suffering and whatnot that comes to me. It says I am not entitled to good unless I believe in god. It says people suffer because they do not accept God. It basically says, tough luck Atheist, rot in hell.

It says more than that. It says those people who don't have food in poor countries deserve it, because they don't believe in "God". It says many worse things than that, and it is not the least bit unoffensive.

I think of it eventually leads to this argument - "Jews got what they deserved during the Sho'ah because they did not accept the teaching of Jesus Christ." Or any other form of justification. Bigoted, and, ironically, not even justified within scripture.

It seems like whoever wrote that needs to read the book of Job. Either way, I don't think copy and pasting goes with the forum rules, and I don't think the content does either - how could it not offend. I'm surprised this isn't locked - I don't want to say there is a double standard, so I guess I'll just say it hasn't been gotten around to yet.

Ouch! A little tough there, yo.

God is infinite.

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Originally Posted by oopsycandy

Hoope I think your missing the point of my post and I think Wintermute was alluding to a similar point

Your OP states quite clearly *That's what happens when people do not go to him, and don't look to him for help. Thats why there so much pain and sufffering in the world*

I actually find the suggestion in the OP that the people I loved who have died horribly, or that the millions of people on this planet who are starving and suffering everyday, are doing so because they have failed to subscribe to this idea of a deity offensive.

If I had to choose between being poked in the eye by my barber with a pair of scissors or having my head pulled off by the god this is supposed to prove the truth of, I'd take my chances with the god.

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I get ur point ... & yes many people go to God but have you asked yourself whether they are worshipping God int he right way , its not about only believing & going to the church.. And yet you may suffer.
Its not about being , its about becoming what God wants to.We have a choice in our life & we can choose between whats right & wrong . And we can't blame the poor or the sick for they are ; everyone has a reason for . If ther is no poor there wouldn't have been rich , ppl would be all inthe same level ; but now you can see that there is charity & ppl help eachother . If there is no sick you wouldn't know how gifted you r with having a good health & you would thank God . Things are made for reason , & we are all part of what has been written ; but we have the right to accept it or deny it & suffer . And i am one who believes inteh world hereafter i dnt know if you do; but once anyone does they will know that this life is othing but a way that we pass by ; we may get sick or suffer but int he would hereafter there is endless happiness .

I hope you were able to get my point of view . And thx alot for your comment & sorry for any misunderstandin

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Originally Posted by JBI

Another one? Read before posting, geez. This isn't a cut and paste forum - it's for discussion of literary texts. Why don't people stop forwarding their emails here?

As far as I'm concerned, this has nothing to do with the bible, or any other text, and instead insults my beliefs as an atheist.

These boards are not for converting - if I'm not posting topics like "why religious people are idiots", and not copying and pasting from Dawkins or whomever, why should religious people be allowed the same freedom?

Basically I find this insulting. It says that because I am not Christian, or whatever monotheistic religion this seems to follow (though I think it is Christian, because I know Jewish Dogma would consider this ridiculous) I deserve all the suffering and whatnot that comes to me. It says I am not entitled to good unless I believe in god. It says people suffer because they do not accept God. It basically says, tough luck Atheist, rot in hell.

It says more than that. It says those people who don't have food in poor countries deserve it, because they don't believe in "God". It says many worse things than that, and it is not the least bit unoffensive.

I think of it eventually leads to this argument - "Jews got what they deserved during the Sho'ah because they did not accept the teaching of Jesus Christ." Or any other form of justification. Bigoted, and, ironically, not even justified within scripture.

It seems like whoever wrote that needs to read the book of Job. Either way, I don't think copy and pasting goes with the forum rules, and I don't think the content does either - how could it not offend. I'm surprised this isn't locked - I don't want to say there is a double standard, so I guess I'll just say it hasn't been gotten around to yet.

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SORRY JBI.... i should have read the forum rules..but thers no need to be harsh with your words , anyway i thought it would be good to just share & see other opinion.. whateva.. i'll check its not A COPY PASTE WORK next tym .:D

yeah, flawed logic, nice enough story.
but to be honest, I like my beard.

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Originally Posted by Judas130

yeah, flawed logic, nice enough story.
but to be honest, I like my beard.

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Thx Judas.. for steppin by :)

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Originally Posted by hoope

. . .but have you asked yourself whether they are worshipping God int he right way , its not about only believing & going to the church..

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Hi Hoope,

I'm sorry. Are you saying that my grandmother was worshipping in the wrong way? And that by doing so she brought on her cancer and suffering? If so, I want no part of your God. You can keep it.

Its no wonder this planet is in such a state with ideas like this.

Doug

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Originally Posted by Wintermute

Hi Hoope,

I'm sorry. Are you saying that my grandmother was worshipping in the wrong way? And that by doing so she brought on her cancer and suffering? If so, I want no part of your God. You can keep it.

Its no wonder this planet is in such a state with ideas like this.

Doug

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daaaaaaaa.. don't get me wrong..
No offence Wintermute ! Every one has his own point views.. And am sorry for your grandma ; May her soul rest in peace

Getting cancer or any disease is a testing for human tolerance & whether they can take it with patient & know that this is written for anyone .. those who believe or not.. i believe that how our life will be is written way before we r born.. nothing we do can change it .. but we can accept it in a different way..



And which state you meant by ur last word.. !!

The reason man believes in God is man likens this vastness, the unknown universe to God. Of course there are too many associations of God-related subjects with mythological readings. And when mythological things have bearings on the subject of God it is not unnatural to see some of the superstitious beliefs with God-subjects.

Yet I see God rather differently and choose to dissociate it with mere mythological issues.
God is the universe, the cosmos but in its manifested or un-manifested forms.

Though not directly relevant, the way believers believe and the way atheists counter argue and refuse to believe in God, I got reminded of this joke.

A deaf person going for a swim in the river met another deaf sitting by the roadside:

Sitting deaf: Are you going for a swim in the river?

First deaf: No, No…. I am going for a swim in the river.

Sitting deaf: Oh! I thought, you were going for a swim in the river.

I am a firm believer, by the way.

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Originally Posted by blazeofglory

The reason man believes in God is man likens this vastness, the unknown universe to God. Of course there are too many associations of God-related subjects with mythological readings. And when mythological things have bearings on the subject of God it is not unnatural to see some of the superstitious beliefs with God-subjects.

Yet I see God rather differently and choose to dissociate it with mere mythological issues.
God is the universe, the cosmos but in its manifested or un-manifested forms.

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To say God is the entirety of the natural order, existence being the common thread between all that physically exists and God being the binding for us all, is a concept I share. To believe this however, at least in and around the time of Spinoza, was as good as atheism. It is a deistic concept, to see an entity that IS the universe, all in it, the cosmos but in its 'manifested or un-manifested forms' - to me this means, 'physically', and 'in abstract'. Thus, i would infer from your statement that 'God' in this understanding is like spinoza's natural order, Plato's Form of the Good, or Aristotle's Prime Mover. Therefore, 'God', in this understanding, cannot be interactive, loving, or in any way interested with us humans. As Hoope is clearly a Theist, her God clearly of the Judeo-Christian variety and so your deistic idea, of which I too share (in some form or another perhaps), doesn't apply to her loving God, nor her story...or HIS if I got the gender wrong...I just assumed due to the flowery avatar...

All in all, deism is an interesting way to look at something...it depersonalises a deity, and has no recommendations to worship it, has some empirical grounds for proof, yet cannot be faith or religion, but philosophy.

peace

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Originally Posted by blazeofglory

The reason man believes in God is man likens this vastness, the unknown universe to God. Of course there are too many associations of God-related subjects with mythological readings. And when mythological things have bearings on the subject of God it is not unnatural to see some of the superstitious beliefs with God-subjects.

Yet I see God rather differently and choose to dissociate it with mere mythological issues.
God is the universe, the cosmos but in its manifested or un-manifested forms.

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Hey Blaze we missed you around.. wlc back..

and yes i was eager to read your reply & as you said we should dissociate God from any mythology

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Originally Posted by Judas130

To say God is the entirety of the natural order, existence being the common thread between all that physically exists and God being the binding for us all, is a concept I share. To believe this however, at least in and around the time of Spinoza, was as good as atheism. It is a deistic concept, to see an entity that IS the universe, all in it, the cosmos but in its 'manifested or un-manifested forms' - to me this means, 'physically', and 'in abstract'. Thus, i would infer from your statement that 'God' in this understanding is like spinoza's natural order, Plato's Form of the Good, or Aristotle's Prime Mover. Therefore, 'God', in this understanding, cannot be interactive, loving, or in any way interested with us humans. As Hoope is clearly a Theist, her God clearly of the Judeo-Christian variety and so your deistic idea, of which I too share (in some form or another perhaps), doesn't apply to her loving God, nor her story...or HIS if I got the gender wrong...I just assumed due to the flowery avatar...

All in all, deism is an interesting way to look at something...it depersonalises a deity, and has no recommendations to worship it, has some empirical grounds for proof, yet cannot be faith or religion, but philosophy.

peace

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Am a girl.. & i have no any philosophy iterest out of all this.. & i dnt like philosophy either.. And i think we should separate Philosophy from religion & from faith... Philosopher are nothing but weird ppl coming up with theories .. which are to be wrong or right ..

i went way from the topic.. anyway Judas.. thx alot for your comment.. & for sharing your idea..

Philosophy is just full of ideas, different ideas, and it suffers limitations.

All of us are here learning. Truth is not revealed to us fully. We have so many books, philosophies, Scientology theories that were designed or written about truth, but they can not unfold full truth but only part of them only.

God is truth, and realizing truth is likened to realizing truth.

All regardless of ideologies, all follow truth in its variations. Scientists are too seeking it and spiritualists are too. The only difference is the path.

Hi Blazeofglory,

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Originally Posted by blazeofglory

Scientists are too seeking it and spiritualists are too. The only difference is the path.

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Do you know anyone who has actually, 100% certain found 'it'. There seem to be gazillions of folks that claim to have found 'it'. But I don't think they have. Most of them seem silly to me. I'm hoping 'it' is much more beautiful and gentle than Ms hoope thinks.

Naturally, being agnostic, I could be wrong--it could be a mean spirited, angry old man sitting in a cloud somewhere smiting those who fail to recognize and worship it.

Blessings to you.

Doug

god's body is the universe.
god's thoughts are gravity, strong nuclear force, weak interaction force, and electro-magnetic force.
god's actions are all the immutable mechanisms triggered by the basic four thoughts.
http://theanimationacademy.com/an/Universe5a.jpg

anthropocentrism is a frigging joke.

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Originally Posted by hoope

Am a girl.. & i have no any philosophy iterest out of all this.. & i dnt like philosophy either.. And i think we should separate Philosophy from religion & from faith... Philosopher are nothing but weird ppl coming up with theories .. which are to be wrong or right ..
.

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i agree philosophy should be separated from sun worshiping and wishing (ie..religion and faith). good call hoope.

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Originally Posted by Wintermute

Do you know anyone who has actually, 100% certain found 'it'.
Doug

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somewhat more seriously though, i can think of a few philosophers that wrote as if they found 'it.' who's to say if they lived like they wrote though. i heard Kant was quite the guy

sidenote: anthropomorphism is blasphemy of "it", sort of. sometimes not though. emphasis sometimes. usually is

The message of the original story isn't,"This is why god exists". The message is more along the lines of "come to god, because he must exist". If so which god? From what I recall, "All gods where immortal"

Whether a god or set of gods exist is moot. Which truth do we choose to realize? usually it's the one we're indoctrinated in at birth. Sometimes folks research other religions and find they're not all that dissimilar. Although, here's how general Philosophy and Religions differ:
Philosophy is figuring out how to live. Religion is being told how to live. Philosophy is focused on this plane of existence . Religion goes beyond the mortal coil, either as a punishing or a rewarding system. Philosophy proposes rewards in this life. Religion promises rewards in this life and beyond. Philosophy builds itself on premise. Religion builds itself on tradition.

So which do you take? A proposal or a promise? And if you chose the promise which one? There are more than enough out there to provide enough pleasure and pain for lifetimes to come.

This very question is why there is conflict in the world. "He can't be right because that would make me wrong". Really, what does it matter whether a god truly exists or not? Religion should be a means to a healthy lifestyle or it's masochistic. If you live righteously you'll usually be considered a good person, and end up in heaven (One of the christian varieties or nirvana or Firdaus or one of the Lokas or...). Otherwise the religion brings conflict instead of peace, and is hypocritical in some capacity.

What I'm saying is it's not if god exists, but how you believe 'it' would want us to exist. If you live well, you're a winner either way.

but grounds for faith can be very philosophical. But you are right Krym, religion is the ages of manmade tradition indoctrinating its dogma into us all. Religion is the group you belong to, it is your community, the word suggests it - you conform. Our cognitive mechanisms freely accept irrational non-doubting explanations for design.

:idea:

Yet we as humans possess the inner religious struggle between melancholy and happiness, and trance is our cognitive mechanism. Fear and pain, the need for a powerful parent to care for us, the obsessional nature of ritual, and the hypnotic state a community can induce are all factors of religion. Philosophy can strip this bare of false axioms, or it can back it up. at the end of the day you are thinking for yourself with philosophy.


peace.

Judas that post is objectionable on many levels. It is uncalled for, baseless, and vulgar.

apologies, it is edited now, to an extent...i hit a chord maybe? forgive me.

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Originally Posted by JBI

As far as I'm concerned, this has nothing to do with the bible, or any other text, and instead insults my beliefs as an atheist.

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I don't really believe in god, and I'm not offended. It wasn't meant to insult anyone, I'm sure. Chillax :)

God must exist, and without God existing nothing exist. We are manifestations of God; in fact we are different forms of God. We coexist or our existence is God's existence in a different way.

How can water exist without a container, and so does God exist and God is the container of this universe and all of us.

Realizing the existence of God demands of us a certain quality or else we fail to comprehend this subtlety and few can understand it.

God is a process. God is not a thing, or entity or physicality at all as we generally tend to conceive of. We associate God with issues of heaven, otherworldliness, something extraordinaire, some entity that is unrealisable in this part of the world.

God permeates through everything.

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Originally Posted by blazeofglory

God must exist, and without God existing nothing exist. We are manifestations of God; in fact we are different forms of God. We coexist or our existence is God's existence in a different way.

How can water exist without a container, and so does God exist and God is the container of this universe and all of us.

Realizing the existence of God demands of us a certain quality or else we fail to comprehend this subtlety and few can understand it.

God is a process. God is not a thing, or entity or physicality at all as we generally tend to conceive of. We associate God with issues of heaven, otherworldliness, something extraordinaire, some entity that is unrealisable in this part of the world.

God permeates through everything.

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I agree with everything you've said. God permeates the whole of creation, into every atom.

God is the source of all spiritual and material worlds. God is Truth, the source of Light, of all love, bliss, knowledge, peace, renunciation, wealth, fame, power, etc.. God is the source of reality.

The source of all worlds, all reality, is within the heart of every living being. The center of the universe, as the Daoists say, is within the heart of every being.

We're seprate because of our desire, our consciousness, our ego. We associate ourselves with gross, subtle and mental consciousness. But we are none of these. Our pure essence is non-different from our source. How can we be different from our source? And yet due to ignorance we create layers and layers of falsity.

We feel like we are separate from reality but we are not. God is within us, the source. How can any living being not have the potential for enlightenment? We all do. Enlightenment is simply enacting our true nature, our pure essence, our true self, our source. It is spontaneous love. It is fearlessness, happiness, peace, and knowledge.

A cute story, from my point of view, very flawed logic.

Pain and suffering and death are part of life for every living thing, not just human beings. God doesn't inflict pain, nor does it take it away and confer health and happiness. Pain and suffering simply "are."

I agree with the things blazeofglory wrote, but of course, I think everyone has the right to believe whatever they want. A person's belief is his belief and cannot be changed by others.

but people who suffer in this life and are patient and there suffering does'nt make them disbelivers will be awarded in the next life , they will go to heaven. All prophets suffered, didn't they? suffering is a test, and belief needs to be tested.