This week we are reading Persuasion by Austen.
Please post your comments and questions in this thread.
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This week we are reading Persuasion by Austen.
Please post your comments and questions in this thread.
Well, I won't start this until I finish Kim. But Kim is not very long, so perhaps in two weeks.
It's kind of timely that the story starts out with Walter living above his means and has to rent out his house to makes ends meet huh?
Thats what i like about Persuasion. Gets right in with the dis-equalibrium! Annes mother was the one who always looked after the estates money, and when she died, Elizabeth as eldest help her father, but both are extravagent by nature.
I love Austen! Wish I had time to join you guys.
"Dis-equilibrium" what a great way to phrase the initial situation that initiates a story. I was trying to come up with such a term for the past six months or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niamh
gonna read it all tomorrow at bed time...:D Im so looking forward to this its been YEARS since I let myself have an Austen binge :banana:
I robbed the term from Todorov's film contstruct of Equalibrium, Dis-Equalibrium, New Equalibrium. :D It stuck in my head and i always apply it to everything literature and Film.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
It is atually a proper word , media studies narrative wise anyway.
Ok its actually taking longer than iyt should to read this I just can't make myself rush through it, and am enjoying every single word. I havent read it in 5-7 years and Im finding that I am picking up completly different things than when I used to read it every 3 months. For one thing I no longer think Sir Walter and Elizabeth are such ridicous no one can really be like that charcters. And what is with his private dissapointments, and retrench ???
I'm curious to know what people's impression of Anne is so far. I always find her a little too goody and responsible, but usually everyone disagrees with me. Towards the beginning, I suppose this didn't strike me so much, but there's a scene somewhere toward the middle where it's pretty hard to believe in this character. I won't go into details now, but I will say it happens on the sea shore, I believe.
I love Persuasion! Its such a shame that because of the success of pride and prejudice Austen's other novels are neglected; for me this novel is up there *indicates 3 feet high* :lol:. I have an Austen binge (to use nighshade's phrase) every summer holiday.
Sir Walter is an oaf. My god, probably the most ridiculous character ever! In response to the person above me - Quark - I think Anne is meant to come across 'good' and 'responsible' NOW because years before she wasn't, she had her faults and let herself be 'persuaded' out of a possible marriage with Wentworth. She is now older and maturer. I didn't like Lady Russell at all - however good her intentions may have been - which I doubt!
I love Captain Wentworth. :ladysman:
I love Persuasion, it was my second Jane Austen's book. First, I saw a movie and I'd searched this book for a long time, because I didn't know exactly, how it calls. So, when I found it, it was realy happiness)
Now I want to read it in English.
I admire Captain Wentworth's letter to Ann) Such touching moment :bawling:
I think it was Annes character that made me like her. Its not that shes nice and goody. She lets her family walk all over her, and you know she is still in pain over wentworth. She tortures herself. Keeping herself occupied by helping people seemed to be her escape from her thoughts of him. And then he is literally on her doorstep!
Well, I, for one, do not disagree with you. I cannot bring myself like Anne; she is too good to be true and believable; and even if she were "real", I am not sure she would be someone I would like. I prefer Emma and Elizabeth to Anne on any day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
I read this a few years ago (of course in translation), and loved it so much. I preferred this among Austen's other novels. Now I like to read it again. I should do my best to start
Quark, I have to agree. Anne so far is not one of my favorites, she seems pretty mealy.
And why is the rest of the family so horrible?
I find that Austen's characterisation in this case did not work. Her works are usually full of caricatures, which can be amusing to read but in this book Elizabeth and Sir Walter are so caricaturised that they are neither amusing nor believable, in my opinion.
I just finished the book. (I must say I'm knocking some down so far this year) So basically Anne is a gold digger. The only difference between Wentworth then and now is 25000 pounds.
And why would Mrs Smith try to push Mr Elliot on Anne knowing what she knew??
I think they have to be so exaggeratedly mean because it's a comedy and they're meant to be an obstacle for the heroine to overcome. Think about Shakespeare's comedies. They're full of over-the-top villains, and this makes the protagonists victories over them so welcome. I suppose, though, that we're not supposed to take Shakespeare's comedic villains so seriously, whereas here I think Austen means for the readers to genuinely fear and hate these people. Maybe that's what makes the characters in Persuasion seem too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by papayahed
I liked Persuasion, though I must confess, there were parts that I found a little tedious.
I disagree about Anne being too goody goody. One has to investigate the Victorian mind. I think Anne herself speaks truth about women in general when she is talking about a woman's world being so very confining, how that relates to their hanging on longer than perhaps a man to love, for they have little else to excite them and make their hearts and imaginations take flight.One can only do so much I think, with needlepoint. :)
I wonder then, if the person that thinks this about dear Anne would even be able to make it through Mansfield Park? Fanny Price might just outdo Anne in scruples and proper everything!
Quote:
Originally Posted by papayahed
She was hoping to get something out of it too. When she knew that Anne wasn''t having any of it she came clean about his character.
It is possible that Mr. Elliot had changed since Mr's Smith knew him and she didn't want to interfere in her "betters" lives.
Well in my opinion Persuasion is a good book, not fantastic, but also not bad; I like when they meet again; but is something missing right there.....
I think pride and prejudice is better in some ways.
Well I finally completed Persuasion and I really enjoyed it. Now I don’t believe it’s a great novel, but like I’ve mentioned elsewhere its prose is exquisite.
A couple of points. The story is extremely simple. There isn’t much depth to it I’m afraid and for that I could not give it the highest score. What’s the story? Anne rejects love against the wishes of her heart in a youthful impulsive decision, influenced by an older mentor. Her decision is obviously the wrong one, but when years later she crosses paths with her love she is able to atone for her mistake and marry him. It’s a sort of fairy tale story and perhaps one that many young women may day dream. I’m sure there are profusions of romance novels along these lines. I happen to enjoy the characters. I found Anne to be real. The other characters were a bit two dimensional. Was the young Mr. Eliot really that evil? So he wanted to marry Anne and get her fortune as well as a smart and pretty bride. I was not convinced with his characterization.
The only depth to the story I can see was how time has altered people, how experience had given richness to their perspectives. Here the character of Mrs. Smith was the crux of the various characters that circle the story, the mother figure that Anne didn’t have and that Lady Russell seems to have failed at.
[chpt 17]Quote:
Mrs. Smith’s history, a widow, now poor, struggling, her heart has been altered from the young woman of Anne’s youth.
She [Mrs. Smith] was a widow and poor. Her husband had been extravagant;
and at his death, about two years before, had left his affairs
dreadfully involved. She had had difficulties of every sort
to contend with, and in addition to these distresses had been afflicted
with a severe rheumatic fever, which, finally settling in her legs,
had made her for the present a cripple. She had come to Bath
on that account, and was now in lodgings near the hot baths,
living in a very humble way, unable even to afford herself
the comfort of a servant, and of course almost excluded from society.
And further down,
[chpt 17]Quote:
Twelve years were gone since they had parted, and each presented a somewhat different personfrom what the other had imagined. Twelve years had changed Annefrom the blooming, silent, unformed girl of fifteen, to the elegant little woman of seven-and-twenty, with every beauty except bloom,
and with manners as consciously right as they were invariably gentle;
and twelve years had transformed the fine-looking, well-grown Miss Hamilton,
in all the glow of health and confidence of superiority, into a poor,
infirm, helpless widow, receiving the visit of her former protegee
as a favour; but all that was uncomfortable in the meeting had soon
passed away, and left only the interesting charm of remembering
former partialities and talking over old times.
Time has altered the woman, just as time has altered Anne and Captain Wentworth. And for a comic novel, Mrs. Smith brings in the possibility of harsh reality. Here she replies to Anne’s comment on the naïve thought of the heroism of a sick chamber:
[chpt 17]Quote:
"Yes," said Mrs Smith more doubtingly, "sometimes it may,
though I fear its lessons are not often in the elevated style you describe.
Here and there, human nature may be great in times of trial;
but generally speaking, it is its weakness and not its strength
that appears in a sick chamber: it is selfishness and impatience
rather than generosity and fortitude, that one hears of.
There is so little real friendship in the world! and unfortunately"
(speaking low and tremulously) "there are so many who forget
to think seriously till it is almost too late."
And so when Captain Wentworth and Anne finally are reunited, it’s the time theme that is emphasized. Time has altered their perspectives. Here before they expressed their love.
[chpt 22]Quote:
Captain Wentworth left his seat, and walked to the fire-place;
probably for the sake of walking away from it soon afterwards,
and taking a station, with less bare-faced design, by Anne.
"You have not been long enough in Bath," said he, "to enjoy
the evening parties of the place."
"Oh! no. The usual character of them has nothing for me.
I am no card-player."
"You were not formerly, I know. You did not use to like cards;
but time makes many changes."
"I am not yet so much changed," cried Anne, and stopped, fearing she
hardly knew what misconstruction. After waiting a few moments
he said, and as if it were the result of immediate feeling,
"It is a period, indeed! Eight years and a half is a period."
And through this realization, Anne must conquer the past, vanquish its hold on the current circumstances:
[chpt 22]Quote:
The interruption had been short, though severe, and ease and animation
returned to most of those they left as the door shut them out,
but not to Anne. She could think only of the invitation she had
with such astonishment witnessed, and of the manner in which
it had been received; a manner of doubtful meaning, of surprise rather
than gratification, of polite acknowledgement rather than acceptance.
She knew him; she saw disdain in his eye, and could not venture to believe
that he had determined to accept such an offering, as an atonement
for all the insolence of the past. Her spirits sank. He held the card
in his hand after they were gone, as if deeply considering it.
"Only think of Elizabeth's including everybody!" whispered Mary
very audibly. "I do not wonder Captain Wentworth is delighted!
You see he cannot put the card out of his hand."
Anne caught his eye, saw his cheeks glow, and his mouth form itself
into a momentary expression of contempt, and turned away,
that she might neither see nor hear more to vex her.
[chpt 23]Quote:
And finally when Anne and Captain Wentworth both acknowledge their love, the past is both embraced and conquered.
There could not be an objection. There could be only the most
proper alacrity, a most obliging compliance for public view;
and smiles reined in and spirits dancing in private rapture.
In half a minute Charles was at the bottom of Union Street again,
and the other two proceeding together: and soon words enough had passed
between them to decide their direction towards the comparatively quiet
and retired gravel walk, where the power of conversation would make
the present hour a blessing indeed, and prepare it for all
the immortality which the happiest recollections of their own future lives
could bestow. There they exchanged again those feelings
and those promises which had once before seemed to secure everything,
but which had been followed by so many, many years of division
and estrangement. There they returned again into the past,
more exquisitely happy, perhaps, in their re-union, than when
it had been first projected; more tender, more tried, more fixed
in a knowledge of each other's character, truth, and attachment;
more equal to act, more justified in acting. And there, as they slowly
paced the gradual ascent, heedless of every group around them,
seeing neither sauntering politicians, bustling housekeepers,
flirting girls, nor nursery-maids and children, they could indulge in
those retrospections and acknowledgements, and especially in
those explanations of what had directly preceded the present moment,
which were so poignant and so ceaseless in interest.
A few more points. The exchange between Mrs. Smith and Anne, tinged with sadness, seem to echo Virginia Woolf and her women characters who as they find not comic happiness but tragic melancholy. And the don’t the characters and situation here seem to echo the future novels of Henry James? They do for me, the young accomplished but naïve heroine, the experienced woman friend who leads her astray, the devilish male suitor competing with the good suitor, though again like Woolf, James pushes for the tragic not comic story. I pick up the seeds of both Woolf and James in Persuasion.
I have quoted some of Austen’s lovely prose. What makes this novel a joy to read is not so much the story or the characters, but Austen’s prose. Certainly Emma and Pride and Prejudice are more complex novels, but I do not think that Austen’s prose rises to such beauty as it does here. Let me provide a couple of more quotes to highlight her writing.
[chpt 13]Quote:
An hour's complete leisure for such reflections as these,
on a dark November day, a small thick rain almost blotting out
the very few objects ever to be discerned from the windows, was enough
to make the sound of Lady Russell's carriage exceedingly welcome;
and yet, though desirous to be gone, she could not quit the Mansion House,
or look an adieu to the Cottage, with its black, dripping and
comfortless veranda, or even notice through the misty glasses
the last humble tenements of the village, without a saddened heart.
Scenes had passed in Uppercross which made it precious.
It stood the record of many sensations of pain, once severe,
but now softened; and of some instances of relenting feeling,
some breathings of friendship and reconciliation, which could
never be looked for again, and which could never cease to be dear.
She left it all behind her, all but the recollection that
such things had been.
and
[chpt 7]Quote:
Her brother's return was the first comfort; he could take best care
of his wife; and the second blessing was the arrival of the apothecary.
Till he came and had examined the child, their apprehensions were
the worse for being vague; they suspected great injury, but knew not where;
but now the collar-bone was soon replaced, and though Mr Robinson
felt and felt, and rubbed, and looked grave, and spoke low words
both to the father and the aunt, still they were all to hope the best,
and to be able to part and eat their dinner in tolerable ease of mind;
and then it was, just before they parted, that the two young aunts
were able so far to digress from their nephew's state, as to give
the information of Captain Wentworth's visit; staying five minutes behind
their father and mother, to endeavour to express how perfectly delighted
they were with him, how much handsomer, how infinitely more agreeable
they thought him than any individual among their male acquaintance,
who had been at all a favourite before. How glad they had been
to hear papa invite him to stay dinner, how sorry when he said
it was quite out of his power, and how glad again when he had promised
in reply to papa and mamma's farther pressing invitations to come
and dine with them on the morrow--actually on the morrow;
and he had promised it in so pleasant a manner, as if he felt
all the motive of their attention just as he ought. And in short,
he had looked and said everything with such exquisite grace,
that they could assure them all, their heads were both turned by him;
and off they ran, quite as full of glee as of love, and apparently
more full of Captain Wentworth than of little Charles.
and one more
[chpt 10]Quote:
Yes; he had done it. She was in the carriage, and felt that he had
placed her there, that his will and his hands had done it,
that she owed it to his perception of her fatigue, and his resolution
to give her rest. She was very much affected by the view of
his disposition towards her, which all these things made apparent.
This little circumstance seemed the completion of all that had gone before.
She understood him. He could not forgive her, but he could not
be unfeeling. Though condemning her for the past, and considering it
with high and unjust resentment, though perfectly careless of her,
and though becoming attached to another, still he could not see her suffer,
without the desire of giving her relief. It was a remainder
of former sentiment; it was an impulse of pure, though unacknowledged
friendship; it was a proof of his own warm and amiable heart,
which she could not contemplate without emotions so compounded
of pleasure and pain, that she knew not which prevailed.
The rhythm of the sentences through series constructions, through balanced phrasing, through dependent modifying clauses, through parallel constructions, just rise to a delicate pace. One feels the beats in the phrases, as they rise and fall, swell and shrink with the thought and the emotion. I just admired her prose throughout the entire novel. She is certainly a fine writer, perhaps the best of her era.
That's funny. You and I always seem to be just missing each other in these Austen threads. Well, I guess this really wasn't just missing, as I haven't posted here in half a year, but, in any case, I was thinking about Persuasion the other day. I wasn't thinking about its relative greatness, though, so much as I was wondering why so much of this novel is related second-hand. The novel's focus is on Anne (who does very little), while the big events seem to keep happening away from her. The Eliots are in financial trouble before the novel begins, Anne's mother also dies in that in prefatory chapter, and Wentworth gathers his fortune during the seven years of waiting. Anne seems in charge of very little in this Austen novel. This eventlessness might have something to do with why Persuasion comes off as more insipid than the other Austen texts I've read.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Well the plot is simple, but I don't know if the story is. The plot is like much late eighteenth century, popular romance: a simple heroine goes to some urban center, sees the humours of society, avoids improper suitors, and then finds the right husband. Austen uses this as just a vehicle, though, for some larger ideas. Much of the story is about self-image, public opinion, the sentimental, and the rise of the middle class. And, I don't think Austen treats these ideas in a simple way--at least not extremely so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
You picked some good quotes, Virgil. I might add some more, but I don't have my book in front of me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Virgil and Quark, I enjoyed both your posts on Persuasion. I agree with you Virgil on the beauty of Austen's writing. I agree with Quark that this story is not a simplistic one at all. There is a lot of layering and the more one thinks about the little nuances within the characters, the more one sees the deeper meanings. I found the scene where Captain Wentworth is easedropping when Jane speaks of heartbreak very compelling; also a statement on the sexes and the way they perceive things. I haven't read this book for many years, so please forgive a bit of a vague memory. I think it would be a grand novel to re-read someday. I do own the BBC movie adaptation and enjoy it emensel; I watch it often. I think it captures the spirit of the book and the characters well. If I recall correctly, there is a retired sea captain and his wife living by the sea; I found them especially enduring and interesting. They and various characters reminded me of Dicken's characters. I don't know if I see the seeds of Woolf's writing here, but I do see Henry James, but not as tragic; Jane Austen's novels have always had the trademark of her style by ending with a wedding, happily ever after. The characters always seem to come full circle. I like the idea of change of attitude with age that you have pointed out, Virgil. The sections of text you have quoted have been good ones. I like this part where you describe the writing:
That is beautifully and intelligently stated Virgil.Quote:
The rhythm of the sentences through series constructions, through balanced phrasing, through dependent modifying clauses, through parallel constructions, just rise to a delicate pace. One feels the beats in the phrases, as they rise and fall, swell and shrink with the thought and the emotion. I just admired her prose throughout the entire novel. She is certainly a fine writer, perhaps the best of her era.
:lol: That's such a Quark thing to say. Six months and just missing each other. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
Now that is a fascinatring observation. I had not thought of that. Very good find. I'm not sure what its significance is, except to show how Anne is at the mercy of events. If i were writing a college term paper, that might be something to explore.Quote:
I wasn't thinking about its relative greatness, though, so much as I was wondering why so much of this novel is related second-hand. The novel's focus is on Anne (who does very little), while the big events seem to keep happening away from her. The Eliots are in financial trouble before the novel begins, Anne's mother also dies in that in prefatory chapter, and Wentworth gathers his fortune during the seven years of waiting. Anne seems in charge of very little in this Austen novel. This eventlessness might have something to do with why Persuasion comes off as more insipid than the other Austen texts I've read.
Eh, there are ideas that circle around, but it doesn't feel very deep. Anything that is several hundred pages and is coherent and is written by a good writer will have ideas.Quote:
Well the plot is simple, but I don't know if the story is. The plot is like much late eighteenth century, popular romance: a simple heroine goes to some urban center, sees the humours of society, avoids improper suitors, and then finds the right husband. Austen uses this as just a vehicle, though, for some larger ideas. Much of the story is about self-image, public opinion, the sentimental, and the rise of the middle class. And, I don't think Austen treats these ideas in a simple way--at least not extremely so.
Perhaps some day you'll come back with your book and post them. All you have to do is find the quote in the electronic book here on lit net and copy and paste.Quote:
You picked some good quotes, Virgil. I might add some more, but I don't have my book in front of me.
I don't know. I can't feel the depth in the novel. But I could be "persuaded" otherwise some day. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Why thank you. :)Quote:
I don't know if I see the seeds of Woolf's writing here, but I do see Henry James, but not as tragic; Jane Austen's novels have always had the trademark of her style by ending with a wedding, happily ever after. The characters always seem to come full circle. I like the idea of change of attitude with age that you have pointed out, Virgil. The sections of text you have quoted have been good ones. I like this part where you describe the writing:
That is beautifully and intelligently stated Virgil.
I agree that Austen's writing is in excellent form and the story is cleverly structured but I find this work disappointing because it lacks Austen's wit and humour which are displayed in abundance in Pride and Prejudice and especially in Emma (even in Northanger Abbey, which is considered a lesser work by most). There are many love stories written by female writers but lining them with humour is Austen's thing and this one fails miserably in that respect, in my opinion.
It does seem less witty now that you mention it Scher. Was this her last novel? You know it's now clear to me the sequence of the writing.
It was her last novel (published posthumously). I agree that it lacks Austen's usual wit, but I still enjoyed it ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Thanks Jazz. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazz_
No problem ;)
I just finished Persuasion, which put me in an Austen mood, so I'm now reading S&S (her first published) :D