The Christian Hell

In a discussion on what happens after death, I notice a number of people saying that we either go to heaven or hell. Many mainline christians believe Hell isn't so much a place as a state of not-being - the Roman Catholic Church, for instance, do not hold the old-fashioned "hellfire & brimstone" which some sects still cling to.

I'm interested to find out what christians believe "hell" really is. Jesus had little to say on the subject, and the issue seems to be a peculiar one to me, because it says that all sin is equitable - no matter whether I'm a child-eating murderer or simply an atheist, I'm going to hell. It would be a strange contradiction that a god, variously described as compassionate, loving and caring for humans would inflict identical suffering.

Opinions?

I am a devoted Christian, and I have been asked similar questions about hell by many atheists or people that are interested in becoming a Christian.
We believe that hell exists as a realm that is inexplicable in terms of eternal suffering, pain and agony and because there is no sense of time or space, there is no way out forever. Hell is governed by satan and devils and they inflict abhorrent terrors unimaginable.
Now many people have asked the question who goes to Hell and why do people go there when God does cherish each and every one of us, and how come good people in the world that dedicate their life for other people can also go to hell.
The answer is that they do not have belief and faith in God, Jesus.
No matter how many good deeds you do in life, if you do not confess Jesus as your God then you go to Hell. Harsh, but true.
In order to be saved from hell, theres only one way, and that is Jesus once again. Jesus is the bridge between our world and Heaven, and without Him, you may not enter Heaven.
I know that God hates to see that His children have to suffer in Hell forever, but the ones that do not know him and love Him must be punished eternally.
I have been thinking about the people in the world, the ones that it is not their fault that they do not know God. I wondered what will happen to them. I thought it was not fair for them to miss out the good news about Jesus and how He can be their salvation. But it is evident in the Bible that it is us, Christians' duty to spread the good news about Jesus to these people that never heard about Him. I am still not sure what will happen to those people who it isnt their fault that they do not know Him, but one thing I am sure is that we must spread the Word about God.
Then it is up to them to whether to have faith with him and begin to have the greatest relationship with Him which will change their lives forever. See the love of God. See the glory of God. See how we are priceless in the eyes of the Lord. From then on, they will begin to get closer to God, and get closer to the His Kingdom where they will serve and share the joy together with God.

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Originally Posted by skasian

I am a devoted Christian, and I have been asked similar questions about hell by many atheists or people that are interested in becoming a Christian.
We believe that hell exists as a realm that is inexplicable in terms of eternal suffering, pain and agony and because there is no sense of time or space, there is no way out forever. Hell is governed by satan and devils and they inflict abhorrent terrors unimaginable.
Now many people have asked the question who goes to Hell and why do people go there when God does cherish each and every one of us, and how come good people in the world that dedicate their life for other people can also go to hell.
The answer is that they do not have belief and faith in God, Jesus.
No matter how many good deeds you do in life, if you do not confess Jesus as your God then you go to Hell. Harsh, but true.
In order to be saved from hell, theres only one way, and that is Jesus once again. Jesus is the bridge between our world and Heaven, and without Him, you may not enter Heaven.
I know that God hates to see that His children have to suffer in Hell forever, but the ones that do not know him and love Him must be punished eternally.
I have been thinking about the people in the world, the ones that it is not their fault that they do not know God. I wondered what will happen to them. I thought it was not fair for them to miss out the good news about Jesus and how He can be their salvation. But it is evident in the Bible that it is us, Christians' duty to spread the good news about Jesus to these people that never heard about Him. I am still not sure what will happen to those people who it isnt their fault that they do not know Him, but one thing I am sure is that we must spread the Word about God.
Then it is up to them to whether to have faith with him and begin to have the greatest relationship with Him which will change their lives forever. See the love of God. See the glory of God. See how we are priceless in the eyes of the Lord. From then on, they will begin to get closer to God, and get closer to the His Kingdom where they will serve and share the joy together with God.

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If Jesus is the bridge between heaven and earth, and accepting him is the only way to get into heaven, then what did the people before Jesus do? Are they suffering in eternal agony? And what about the people who lived when paganism and idolatry was the mainstream belief? Are they going to perish for eternity because they simply didn't conceive of a monotheistic God? Or did they inherit a get-out-of-jail-free card?

I don't mean to personally attack you for your beliefs, but the whole notion of accepting Jesus as being the only way to the afterlife doesn't make any sense to me. If I'm a child rapist and I accept Jesus in my final hours, I can go to heaven. But if I'm a generous, selfless and moral human being who doesn't accept Jesus I suffer for eternity because of it.

I don't see the point in blind faith.

Yes. Can you explain happy are the ignorant for they shall inherit the kingdom of heaven - doesn't this mean those that do not know about God shall be saved? I bloody hate the premise in order to believe you have to understand (SO NARROW MINDED) so these discussions piss me off actually but I accidentally clicked on the wrong post and accepted it as FATE!!! LOL

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Originally Posted by JacobF

If Jesus is the bridge between heaven and earth, and accepting him is the only way to get into heaven, then what did the people before Jesus do? Are they suffering in eternal agony? And what about the people who lived when paganism and idolatry was the mainstream belief? Are they going to perish for eternity because they simply didn't conceive of a monotheistic God? Or did they inherit a get-out-of-jail-free card?

I don't mean to personally attack you for your beliefs, but the whole notion of accepting Jesus as being the only way to the afterlife doesn't make any sense to me. If I'm a child rapist and I accept Jesus in my final hours, I can go to heaven. But if I'm a generous, selfless and moral human being who doesn't accept Jesus I suffer for eternity because of it.

I don't see the point in blind faith.

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Yes, I always thought it was "unfair" for thoes evil doers that do believe in Jesus in the final hours that can go to heaven while the good doers that do not believe in Jesus go to hell. However in God's terms, accepting your one and true God as Jesus outweighs whatever you do in Earth. I am not a pastor, and I am not an experienced preacher or any kind, therefore I cannot be certain on how God weighs our values in order to go to heaven. However I am sure that you must accept Jesus in order to go to heaven because that is the most important thing in ourlives. Think about it this way, if you do not hand in a research paper for school in the due date but have constructed the most ingenious paper that could earn you a place in Harvard, you dont get a chance to get in because you havent done the most vital thing. Hand in the paper by the due date.

Ah. The people before Jesus. You see because Jesus was the only way that could give an opportunity to go to heaven, well before that, the soul was rested after their life. This is proved when Jesus was crucified and died. In the exact moment when he died, he had given us a bridge to go to heaven. All the people that died before him, have rosen with Him, and then judged to see whether they could go to heaven or hell. Makes sense?
The question about paganism and idolatry, the same applies for the rest of us. Have faith in God, then life in eternal happiness with him. The truth of faith is in front of you right now. Its just up to you to have the faith of accepting God in to your life. Our salvation.

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Originally Posted by Delta40

Yes. Can you explain happy are the ignorant for they shall inherit the kingdom of heaven - doesn't this mean those that do not know about God shall be saved? I bloody hate the premise in order to believe you have to understand (SO NARROW MINDED) so these discussions piss me off actually but I accidentally clicked on the wrong post and accepted it as FATE!!! LOL

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Well do you have a precise reason that you do not want to believe in God? Let us have a discussion then. Why repudiate a being like Jesus that is recorded in history books as PERFECT, PURE, MOST RIGHTEOUS MAN that ever stood on earth. Isn't it logic to at least accept Jesus that he was infact perfect and Son of God? What wrong did he commit that will enable you to deprave the faith of God in this way? What did he do wrong to make you incredulous? What wrong did he do to you?
Christians and religious people are NOT narrow minded, you are. All religious people have deep spiritual states that cannot compare with the non religious. As the spirit is in balance with the mind, it makes the religious minds more powerful and stronger. We have fixed values and beliefs that anything in the world cannot touch. It is our God that makes our hearts, minds and soul stronger than any being in the world.

[QUOTE
The answer is that they do not have belief and faith in God, Jesus.
No matter how many good deeds you do in life, if you do not confess Jesus as your God then you go to Hell. Harsh, but true.
In order to be saved from hell, theres only one way, and that is Jesus once again. Jesus is the bridge between our world and Heaven, and without Him, you may not enter Heaven.
[/QUOTE]

I can hardly find narrower sentiments than this. And if one has understood Jesus such obnoxious ideas would not be thought up.

Here the idea is so narrow that only Jesus is a savior, and that the rest are nothing.

I feel it is ridiculous. This idea is likened to working for the boss not for the organization. Or to put it differently if you work fro a company if you can please your boss and are a poor performer you are recognized.

Any rational thinker can not digest this idea. Of course the poster reserves the right to express his or her idea, and I too have the right to critically oppose the idea that is unpalatable to us and the rest of us.

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Originally Posted by blazeofglory

I can hardly find narrower sentiments than this. And if one has understood Jesus such obnoxious ideas would not be thought up.

Here the idea is so narrow that only Jesus is a savior, and that the rest are nothing.

I feel it is ridiculous. This idea is likened to working for the boss not for the organization. Or to put it differently if you work fro a company if you can please your boss and are a poor performer you are recognized.

Any rational thinker can not digest this idea. Of course the poster reserves the right to express his or her idea, and I too have the right to critically oppose the idea that is unpalatable to us and the rest of us.

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Once again, to the atheist, it is natural for one to believe the idea that having faith for only one god and leaving all the other religion is quite narrow, however for a religious person that does believe that their god is true and the only way for salvation, it is not a narrow as it is a fact. Any religious person will think their idea on their religion is a fact not an idea and thats the difference between a believer and an atheist.
Christians, as this thread is dedicated to the Christians belief in Hell, believe that Jesus is the only way for salvation. Again, for us it is not a narrow idea as it is a fact. Depict a lock and thousands of keys. A lock opens to heaven and only one key can unlock it. That key is Jesus and in reality, as only this key can open the lock to heaven, it is a fact.
I also think that for an atheist, the fact is hard to digest, but if one does gain belief in it, it instantly becomes a fact, not an idea.

skasian, forgive me but you misread my post. I mean that people who need to understand the concept of things like say hell and gee, god before they are prepared to believe are narrow minded. I tend to go with believe and then you will see. Faith goes a long, long way sometimes. Assumptions, like yours don't.

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Originally Posted by skasian

Once again, to the atheist, it is natural for one to believe the idea that having faith for only one god and leaving all the other religion is quite narrow, however for a religious person that does believe that their god is true and the only way for salvation, it is not a narrow as it is a fact. Any religious person will think their idea on their religion is a fact not an idea and thats the difference between a believer and an atheist.
Christians, as this thread is dedicated to the Christians belief in Hell, believe that Jesus is the only way for salvation. Again, for us it is not a narrow idea as it is a fact. Depict a lock and thousands of keys. A lock opens to heaven and only one key can unlock it. That key is Jesus and in reality, as only this key can open the lock to heaven, it is a fact.
I also think that for an atheist, the fact is hard to digest, but if one does gain belief in it, it instantly becomes a fact, not an idea.

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In fact it is not just Jesus, there are others too the Buddha, Krishna, Mohamed and the like.

This idea that one's God is the only one that can be a savior and the rest are not leads to or led to all acts of Violence. We must have a wider perspective to love others' gods, beliefs. This idea is close to fanatics, fundamentalists.

I love Krishna, the Buddha, Jesus on an equal footing. I do not weigh up their significance as saviors incarcerated by narrow sentiments, geographical, racial or cultures. I can enter Guru Dwara, the Buddhist monastery, the Church and Masjid with the same feelings and warmth. Do you still consider me as an atheist by your standards or definitions.

Don't worry. Respawn in 10 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Delta40

skasian, forgive me but you misread my post. I mean that people who need to understand the concept of things like say hell and gee, god before they are prepared to believe are narrow minded. I tend to go with believe and then you will see. Faith goes a long, long way sometimes. Assumptions, like yours don't.

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Not necessarily. Not all non-believers and incredulous atheists are not narrow minded. There are many people that are very open and tolerant to accept a religion and accounts many religion while finding their true god, and these people are not narrow minded. Some atheists are not narrow minded at all, some have sound knowledge of various religions and have a variety views that may not always have to be against a religion.

Yes, faith does go a long way as it is one of the most difficult thing in the world for an atheists to have full grasp into.
I have never made an assumption as for all Christians, it is the naked truth and the only truth we all need to have in this world.

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Originally Posted by blazeofglory

In fact it is not just Jesus, there are others too the Buddha, Krishna, Mohamed and the like.

This idea that one's God is the only one that can be a savior and the rest are not leads to or led to all acts of Violence. We must have a wider perspective to love others' gods, beliefs. This idea is close to fanatics, fundamentalists.

I love Krishna, the Buddha, Jesus on an equal footing. I do not weigh up their significance as saviors incarcerated by narrow sentiments, geographical, racial or cultures. I can enter Guru Dwara, the Buddhist monastery, the Church and Masjid with the same feelings and warmth. Do you still consider me as an atheist by your standards or definitions.

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Of course there are many religions that respond to multiple gods and please, let me point out that Christianity does not promote violence, ever. We respect other religions no matter how contrasting they can be.

Let me define atheist. It may mean one that do not believe in the existance of any god. However it may also mean one that do not FAITH in god. If you do not accept any god as your savior, then you are still classified as an atheist.

Everyone, may I please remind you that this thread is for the discussion of "CHRISTIAN HELL" not the discussion that Christianity is the only religion people must have in order to go to Heaven. I am not advocating or preaching Christianity, as I am providing the Christian view on hell.

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Originally Posted by skasian

Not necessarily. Not all non-believers and incredulous atheists are not narrow minded. There are many people that are very open and tolerant to accept a religion and accounts many religion while finding their true god, and these people are not narrow minded. Some atheists are not narrow minded at all, some have sound knowledge of various religions and have a variety views that may not always have to be against a religion.

Yes, faith does go a long way as it is one of the most difficult thing in the world for an atheists to have full grasp into.
I have never made an assumption as for all Christians, it is the naked truth and the only truth we all need to have in this world.

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Jesus was not a Christian. Christianity creates sectarian feelings and of course it creates voids and distances. It is divisive not integral idea.

We know there are follies among popes and some are even molesters, gay and the like and this is an open secret.

These popes are the pillars of Christianity and they are shaky.

"Christians, as this thread is dedicated to the Christians belief in Hell, believe that Jesus is the only way for salvation."

It is probably safe to say that all Christians accept the statement "Jesus is the only means of salvation."

Far fewer would accept the very different statement, "a belief in Jesus is the only means of salvation."

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Originally Posted by blazeofglory

Jesus was not a Christian. Christianity creates sectarian feelings and of course it creates voids and distances. It is divisive not integral idea.

We know there are follies among popes and some are even molesters, gay and the like and this is an open secret.

These popes are the pillars of Christianity and they are shaky.

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Let me remind you that Christians are still human, and we make the same mistakes as another person, but we put an effort to limitate it with the help of God.
I am not Catholic, and although that I believe that popes are important part of Christianity, I only look up towards God.

Of course Jesus is not Christian, he is not a little of himself is he? He is the Son of God, a Healer, a Savour.

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Originally Posted by skasian

Of course there are many religions that respond to multiple gods and please, let me point out that Christianity does not promote violence, ever. We respect other religions no matter how contrasting they can be.

Let me define atheist. It may mean one that do not believe in the existance of any god. However it may also mean one that do not FAITH in god. If you do not accept any god as your savior, then you are still classified as an atheist.

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Hitler regarded himself as a diehard Christian and there are still too many who think they are Christians. Once we do not divide ourselves between Christians and Jews, the same children we can come closer to truth.

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Originally Posted by Whifflingpin

"Christians, as this thread is dedicated to the Christians belief in Hell, believe that Jesus is the only way for salvation."

It is probably safe to say that all Christians accept the statement "Jesus is the only means of salvation."

Far fewer would accept the very different statement, "a belief in Jesus is the only means of salvation."

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It would depend on the non believer on whether they would also believe that "Jesus is the only means of salvation." This is because the non believer will at least know that in every religion, there is a specific belief that only their god will provode salvation for them. The only difference for the non believer to see is the fact that they do not know which is the "true" god for them.

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Originally Posted by blazeofglory

Hitler regarded himself as a diehard Christian and there are still too many who think they are Christians. Once we do not divide ourselves between Christians and Jews, the same children we can come closer to truth.

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Hitler was simply a madman, and he missed out the point that violence is never the answer in Christianity. If he missed out one of the most important laws God has given us, he was obviously not a "diehard" Christian.

Blaze, you gave me something to think about, Christian and Jews. The difference between them is that Jews do not believe in Jesus and they follow the strict rules that God had appointed in the Old Testiments. As they do not believe in Jesus but believe in the Holy Father, it gave me a something to think about whether they are allowed to enter Heaven or not.

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Originally Posted by Whifflingpin

"Christians, as this thread is dedicated to the Christians belief in Hell, believe that Jesus is the only way for salvation."

It is probably safe to say that all Christians accept the statement "Jesus is the only means of salvation."

Far fewer would accept the very different statement, "a belief in Jesus is the only means of salvation."

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I remember hearing... and I can't state this with full conviction, but I heard that one of the verses was mistranslated slightly... it had to do with faith in Jesus and so people though you had to have faith in Jesus, but the better translation was "Faith of Jesus" so you had to have the faith of Jesus, if that makes any sense or difference.

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Originally Posted by JacobF

If I'm a child rapist and I accept Jesus in my final hours, I can go to heaven. But if I'm a generous, selfless and moral human being who doesn't accept Jesus I suffer for eternity because of it.

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Yes. That's exactly what I mean.

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Originally Posted by Delta40

I bloody hate the premise in order to believe you have to understand (SO NARROW MINDED) so these discussions piss me off actually but I accidentally clicked on the wrong post and accepted it as FATE!!! LOL

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:D

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Originally Posted by skasian

Why repudiate a being like Jesus that is recorded in history books as PERFECT, PURE, MOST RIGHTEOUS MAN that ever stood on earth.

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Thanks for letting us in on your theology, but I would just note that there are no historical accounts of Jesus outside of the bible, so please don't try to intimate that there are.

The bible might make him out to have been perfect, etc., but no other books even suggest he lived, let alone died on the cross.

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Originally Posted by Whifflingpin

It is probably safe to say that all Christians accept the statement "Jesus is the only means of salvation."

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Surprisingly enough, that's not right. Anglican/Episcopalian beliefs don't work like that for starters.

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Originally Posted by skasian

Hitler was simply a madman, and he missed out the point that violence is never the answer in Christianity.

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Yet, if he recanted and sought forgiveness in those last hours in his bunker, embracing Jesus as lord and asking for forgiveness, he'll be in heaven. Seeing that he was Roman Catholic, it's quite possible he sought salvation this way.

Don't you find that a little less than "perfection"?

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

Yes. That's exactly what I mean.



:D



Thanks for letting us in on your theology, but I would just note that there are no historical accounts of Jesus outside of the bible, so please don't try to intimate that there are.

The bible might make him out to have been perfect, etc., but no other books even suggest he lived, let alone died on the cross.



Surprisingly enough, that's not right. Anglican/Episcopalian beliefs don't work like that for starters.



Yet, if he recanted and sought forgiveness in those last hours in his bunker, embracing Jesus as lord and asking for forgiveness, he'll be in heaven. Seeing that he was Roman Catholic, it's quite possible he sought salvation this way.

Don't you find that a little less than "perfection"?

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Your assumption is proved wrong, there are books that provides as fact that Jesus did live. Google and you get some.
Nope. No possible way. He suicided. No matter how he can ask for forgiveness, as he killed himself, there is no way he can enter the Kingdom of God.
Kingdom of God holds perfection, and it always will.

lol I knew i shouldn't be in this thread! A little six year old who is sitting next to me right now, said there is not enough books in the world to answer this question! I'm going with this because I find subjective knowledge and objective knowledge don't meet. Nobody on this thread has objective knowledge really - I mean you guys haven't conducted any research on people that have gone to hell have you? It really is subjective then and even if you combine it with what is written in texts - I don't consider this to be in anyway objective, you still cannot have knowledge that is significant in one way and explanatory in another. It's rather like, pick a colour which you prefer and go with that.

I think that the topic has gotten a little off topic, so i'll go back to answering the actual question and inquiries that were originally brought up.

You have some very good questions. I had some of the same questions myself,
but with a little studying of the Bible, here's what answers I got for
your questions:

1) What is hell?


John Piper said:"The historic biblical view of hell is that it is "endless suffering." Both words are biblical and important: "endless"—hell is forever and never has an end—and "suffering"—in this endless condition people are in conscious torment."

So to use the definitions provided, hell is an eternal destination of endless conscious torment


The Bible addresses hell a lot, and so does Jesus. Here are some references:

Matthew 8:12
"....In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."


Romans 2:8
but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury

Mark 9:43
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.

Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46
"And these will go away into eternal punishment"

Revelation 14:11
"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night"

these are all descriptions of hell, and what will happen/ is happening there. a place of unquenchable fire, wrath and fury, eternal punishment, weeping, gnashing of teeth, and complete torment. that is what hell is.

another way to put it: hell is the abode of those who are permanently separated from God. they create it and maintain it. hell is not a work of God, but the absence of God.


2) why would a loving God create such a place?

RC Sproul says: "We need to realize that those who are in hell desire nothing more than the absence of God. They didn't want to be in God's presence during their earthly lives, and they certainly don't want Him near when they're in hell."

As you said earlier, compassionate, loving and caring are words that describe him and rightfully so. He is all those things plus many more. But God is also a God a justice. Just as a mu rder er gets sentenced for his actions, we are sentenced for a life time of actions.
Jesus actually paid the ultimate price for all our actions. He died on the cross to save us from our sins. And there are some people who will accept that truth, and there are others who will deny it.
For example, if a man says that gravity does not exist, he is definitely going to pay the price when he tries to prove he's right and jumps off a 100 story building. He denied this scientific truth. In the same way, many people will deny the spiritual truth of God, and pay the price for it in the end. The man who jumped off the building fell to his de ath , and we will always fall a continuous dea th if we do not accept God before we go to hell.

2 Timothy 2:12 says, " ......if we deny him, he also will deny us:"

3) why was hell created at all?
Hell was actually created for the devil and his angels, as i believe i quoted earlier, but i'll quote it again.

Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Satan says, "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.' the "Most High" talked about here is God, and there is no one who can be above God. We can't even be equal like him! God is above all things. Isaiah 48:11, God himself says, "For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this. How can I let myself be defamed? I will not yield my glory to another." So hell was made for Satan to be his own master and his own god and have his own spiritual domain. But as James 1:15 clearly states, "Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth de ath ." Satan died spiritually when he wanted to be like God. And he could not be like God, and still can not be like God. So hell was made for Satan to reign, a continuous struggle against God, but always accepting God's judgment. He is in endless turmoil because he can not be like God, and his rage fills the earth to this day.

People who do not follow God have one alternative: to follow Satan. And Satan lives in hell, along with his demons and devils. So when one dies, they either accepted God and went to heaven to worship him, or go to Satan's domain and suffer along with their master.

4) Is there no hope then for entering God's kingdom? Is every sin, major or minor, bad enough to send you to hell?

yes, every sin is condemnable; and yes there is hope. Whether you sin once in your life, or millions of times in your life, one sin is enough to condemn you to hell, because you have gone against God. There is no difference between a mur der er and a liar in the end. They have both sinned, and they both are deserving of dea th (see James 1:15 again). But there is a way to escape this eternal destination of wrath, fury, gnashing of teeth, and weeping. This is where God's amazing love for us comes in. He knows we are not righteous. He knows we sin. And he gave us a way out of it. Romans 5:8 says, "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Earlier, in Romans 4:25, Paul also states, " He [Jesus] was delivered over to for our sins and was raised to life for our justification." Later on, in chapter 5 verse 19, "For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." We are made righteous through Jesus dying on the cross for us, all sinners, and all people. Proverbs 11:4, "Wealth is worthless in the day of wrath, but righteousness delivers from de ath ." We are then delivered from dea th through righteousness, which was given to us when Jesus died. All we need to do is accept it, and truly commit our lives to believing it. A murd er er can get saved, because through Mark 3:28, we are reassured that " all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter...."

So there is hope for getting out of this horrible place, but the only hope is through God.

Ouch. So basically Christians are okay with joining a group that thinks everybody who disagrees with them is getting tortured by their creator for eternity? Strikes me as tribalism. Us good them bad.

If Christianity is true, that means God is insane, because only an insane father would torture his kids for all eternity just because they didn't believe some book a bossy person told them was from Him.

If by chance the millenium comes and everyone on the planet becomes a Christian all full of love, and we learn space travel and colonize the galaxy and every sentient being in the galaxy becomes a loving Christian and they go out to the entire universe and all beings thoughout the cosmos become Christians and love one another generation after generation for billions of years, until the universe becomes unliveable, all that Christian Love from untold trillions of billions for billions of years is as nothing compared to the agony of a single soul tormented in hell eternally, in love-hours, or pain-hours, take your pick.

That's Christian love. All because that guy didn't like their book.

Thank you rush of blood for your post containing valuable Words of God and your views in Christianity.

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Originally Posted by Delta40

lol I knew i shouldn't be in this thread! A little six year old who is sitting next to me right now, said there is not enough books in the world to answer this question! I'm going with this because I find subjective knowledge and objective knowledge don't meet. Nobody on this thread has objective knowledge really - I mean you guys haven't conducted any research on people that have gone to hell have you? It really is subjective then and even if you combine it with what is written in texts - I don't consider this to be in anyway objective, you still cannot have knowledge that is significant in one way and explanatory in another. It's rather like, pick a colour which you prefer and go with that.

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The bible is indeed contains the Word of God and the truth He brings to our world. But lets keep in mind that the bible is not the only way we can interact and know more about God.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maletbon

Ouch. So basically Christians are okay with joining a group that thinks everybody who disagrees with them is getting tortured by their creator for eternity? Strikes me as tribalism. Us good them bad.

If Christianity is true, that means God is insane, because only an insane father would torture his kids for all eternity just because they didn't believe some book a bossy person told them was from Him.

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Please read my previous posts discussing about how God is pure and is not responsible for some of the people suffering in hell. God has layed out the most obvious answer to go the heaven right in front of our noses. It is our incredulousness and relunctance that is responsible for not being able to enter his Kingdom.

any god who creates a universe, and decides to make a test, which will either have you end up in heaven or hell, is unfair.

let us analyze.
first, when you create an imperfect world such as our universe, it is inevitable that some will go to heaven, and that some will go to heaven. god was aware of this, considering he's probably a trillion times wiser than we.

second. why still continue creating a universe such ours? indubitably, it is for one god's temporary entertainment. he laughs, and enjoys watching as we slaves walk towards our various, inevitable destiny.

the truth..
some were born to do good, some were born to do evil, yet all of us are slaves. we are behind--bars made of unimaginable energy, in chains of the unrelenting power of destiny. not in control of our lives, some optimistic men consoles us. "you have free will" he said. yet, at any point of time, not in control of the various forces that causes an effect, he confidently, ignorantly, and innocently lies to comfort himself. and this, this consolation, is just part of our destiny, our destiny, our struggle for survival.

lacking resources in our civilization, trying to find purpose, man desperately invents an effective and efficient way to fullfill his destiny, to survive. "Religion", covered by the veil of human ignorance, does the job for the mean time to aid our survival.

however, soon enough, we shall realize its weakness..
when lies have been forgotten,
and enlightenment has been made,
when one gets tired of this endless charade.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by andrew23

any god who creates a universe, and decides to make a test, which will either have you end up in heaven or hell, is unfair.

let us analyze.
first, when you create an imperfect world such as our universe, it is inevitable that some will go to heaven, and that some will go to heaven. god was aware of this, considering he's probably a trillion times wiser than we.

second. why still continue creating a universe such ours? indubitably, it is for one god's temporary entertainment. he laughs, and enjoys watching as we slaves walk towards our various, inevitable destiny.

the truth..
some were born to do good, some were born to do evil, yet all of us are slaves. we are behind--bars made of unimaginable energy, in chains of the unrelenting power of destiny. not in control of our lives, some optimistic men consoles us. "you have free will" he said. yet, at any point of time, not in control of the various forces that causes an effect, he confidently, ignorantly, and innocently lies to comfort himself. and this, this consolation, is just part of our destiny, our destiny, our struggle for survival.

lacking resources in our civilization, trying to find purpose, man desperately invents an effective and efficient way to fullfill his destiny, to survive. "Religion", covered by the veil of human ignorance, does the job for the mean time to aid our survival.

however, soon enough, we shall realize its weakness..
when lies have been forgotten,
and enlightenment has been made,
when one gets tired of this endless charade.

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Recall your central idea "any god who creates a universe, and decides to make a test, which will either have you end up in heaven or hell, is unfair."

You say a test, and test is an experiment or an act to determine the quality or performance of the subjects' functions. Our test of life exists with resources that will help us excel in life and gain entry to Heaven. Our function: to serve and follow the Words of God. The resources: The bible and the connection we can have with God by prayer. As the answer is right in front of us, it is certainly NOT unfair that some goes to heaven while the others dont.

And no. People are not born to do evil while some are born to do good. Human are born equally in terms of morality. Human are all born neutral from the start, ie infants are blind from morality. It is their responsibility while they mature to sway closer to God or to devils that will make them act good or bad.

People who follow religion in general may be faulty as they are still human however their gods are flawless and they are pure of imperfections. As religion is a dedication for them, religion should not be rebuked or depraved as gods should not be held against.

As this thread is specified with Christianity, let us further discuss only Christianity and not religion in general.

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Originally Posted by skasian

Recall your central idea "any god who creates a universe, and decides to make a test, which will either have you end up in heaven or hell, is unfair."

You say a test, and test is an experiment or an act to determine the quality or performance of the subjects' functions. Our test of life exists with resources that will help us excel in life and gain entry to Heaven. Our function: to serve and follow the Words of God. The resources: The bible and the connection we can have with God by prayer. As the answer is right in front of us, it is certainly NOT unfair that some goes to heaven while the others dont.

And no. People are not born to do evil while some are born to do good. Human are born equally in terms of morality. Human are all born neutral from the start, ie infants are blind from morality. It is their responsibility while they mature to sway closer to God or to devils that will make them act good or bad.

People who follow religion in general may be faulty as they are still human however their gods are flawless and they are pure of imperfections. As religion is a dedication for them, religion should not be rebuked or depraved as gods should not be held against.

As this thread is specified with Christianity, let us further discuss only Christianity and not religion in general.

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Yes, and after this eerie test, the innocent defective ones, which God knew to be doomed from the start, were destined for eternal damnation.

Stating the meaning of "test", and your seemingly random words hasn't justify any of my propositions so far. And yes, human are born equally in terms of morality, as everyone starts from zero action. however their morality in the future --their actions and thoughts are out of hand, but rather enslaved to the chains of destiny.

Your bold yet unwitting statement "People are not born to do evil while some are born to do good." lacks more workable rationale.

However I on the other hand can present to you simple, yet easily fathomable facts that are relevant and logically justifies my propositions unlike your logical fallacies which I have encountered innumerable times in my lifetime.


-At any point of time, every effect has a cause.
-At any point of time, the cause of an effect is not under the control of man, nor god(less god itself is the universe, or he controls the universe), but is rather due to various interconnected forces from the entire universe.
-At any point of time, the actions and thoughts of man is determined by his genes, environment, the people affecting him, the time, the structure of his civilization, the value of gravity, blablabla, etc. -- all of which he was never ever under control during any point of time.

You said "Our function: to serve and follow the Words of God."
But actually, our main function is "to survive, and repoduce better surviving men". Along the way, to help the survival of men, religion was just invented for temporary consolation and aid. Apparently, we're already seeing the cons of religion.
-people not following the laws of their religion
-segregation (instead of unification)
-ignorance (some people are torturing and killing themselves)

And as you said "religion should not be rebuked or depraved as gods should not be held against." Quite frankly, I believe that's true, not because its logical in terms of truth, but because it's logical and beneficial when we speak for survival. In our present civilization, with our primitive form of technology and politics (compared to the future ofcourse) we are not ready yet to abandon religion. Religion as of now, is effective and efficient enought to aid survival.

You said "As this thread is specified with Christianity, let us further discuss only Christianity and not religion in general". I'm sorry I cannot help but to discuss religion in general, as most religion is similar to the form of christianity. And all of them are theistic in nature. But I guess you have a point, Christian hell is like fires and lavas, while Muslim hell is like scimitars and blades. hehe :D

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Originally Posted by skasian

Your assumption is proved wrong, there are books that provides as fact that Jesus did live. Google and you get some.

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No.

It's not an assumption of mine, it's a piece of knowledge I have that there is not one peice of contemporary literature which mentions Jesus Christ in any way other than the bible.

Far from Google, this is a subject I have been involved with for thirty years.

If you believe there is any historical record of Jesus, could you please let me know as I know a large number of historians and theologians who will be delighted by the news.

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Originally Posted by skasian

Nope. No possible way. He suicided.

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Stalin then. He died of nice, natural causes and was another childhood theist. Mao, Pol Pot, any despot, is able to beg forgiveness before death and will be received in your heaven.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Delta40

It's rather like, pick a colour which you prefer and go with that.

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Which is precisely why various christian sects have various visions of Hell, ranging from the liberal "nothing" to the fundie Hell which is based entirely on Dante's.

The ones I'm interested in hearing from are the ones whose Hell is Dante's.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rush_of_Blood

So there is hope for getting out of this horrible place, but the only hope is through God.

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Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maletbon

If Christianity is true, that means God is insane, because only an insane father would torture his kids for all eternity just because they didn't believe some book a bossy person told them was from Him.

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That's why Dante's Hell is a minority concept in christianity since the late 20th century. The vast majority of the world's christians are Roman Catholics and they gave it up years ago. To them, Hell is simply non-existence.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

No.

It's not an assumption of mine, it's a piece of knowledge I have that there is not one peice of contemporary literature which mentions Jesus Christ in any way other than the bible.

Far from Google, this is a subject I have been involved with for thirty years.

If you believe there is any historical record of Jesus, could you please let me know as I know a large number of historians and theologians who will be delighted by the news.



Stalin then. He died of nice, natural causes and was another childhood theist. Mao, Pol Pot, any despot, is able to beg forgiveness before death and will be received in your heaven.

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http://www.biblehistory.net/ heres a site that mentions books that prove the life of Jesus.

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Dynasty-.../dp/0743287231 This is certainly a book about his "hidden" life.

Obviously there are books that are dedicated on Jesus's life, all you need to do is GOOGLE.

It depends on how God weighs their confessions of their sins in the last minute of their life and it is doubtful that God will accept them as confession on the last minute of their lives may not cover for all their sins done at their life time. An acceptable confession takes time, and it depends on how much heart you put into the prayer. It is up to God who can go to heaven or hell, not us.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by skasian

Obviously there are books that are dedicated on Jesus's life, all you need to do is GOOGLE.

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Nope, sorry, but you're so far wrong I find it hard to credit.

Your faith in Google is no doubt excellent news for Messrs Page & Brin, but it has nothing to do with any kind of proof.

Unfortunately, the sites you link to are no use to me, being nothing but blind assertion and based upon the bible, i.e. the same as all other religious historical sites. You may not have understood the reference I made to "contemporary". That means historical records from the time of Jesus.

There are none, apart from the bible.

I suggest you check this out with your pastor if you don't want to believe me, but it is factual that no contemporary historical evidence exists. I can guarantee you that if some were to turn up at this late stage, it would be the most earth-shattering news of the century.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by andrew23

Yes, and after this eerie test, the innocent defective ones, which God knew to be doomed from the start, were destined for eternal damnation.

Stating the meaning of "test", and your seemingly random words hasn't justify any of my propositions so far. And yes, human are born equally in terms of morality, as everyone starts from zero action. however their morality in the future --their actions and thoughts are out of hand, but rather enslaved to the chains of destiny.

Your bold yet unwitting statement "People are not born to do evil while some are born to do good." lacks more workable rationale.

However I on the other hand can present to you simple, yet easily fathomable facts that are relevant and logically justifies my propositions unlike your logical fallacies which I have encountered innumerable times in my lifetime.


-At any point of time, every effect has a cause.
-At any point of time, the cause of an effect is not under the control of man, nor god(less god itself is the universe, or he controls the universe), but is rather due to various interconnected forces from the entire universe.
-At any point of time, the actions and thoughts of man is determined by his genes, environment, the people affecting him, the time, the structure of his civilization, the value of gravity, blablabla, etc. -- all of which he was never ever under control during any point of time.

You said "Our function: to serve and follow the Words of God."
But actually, our main function is "to survive, and repoduce better surviving men". Along the way, to help the survival of men, religion was just invented for temporary consolation and aid. Apparently, we're already seeing the cons of religion.
-people not following the laws of their religion
-segregation (instead of unification)
-ignorance (some people are torturing and killing themselves)

And as you said "religion should not be rebuked or depraved as gods should not be held against." Quite frankly, I believe that's true, not because its logical in terms of truth, but because it's logical and beneficial when we speak for survival. In our present civilization, with our primitive form of technology and politics (compared to the future ofcourse) we are not ready yet to abandon religion. Religion as of now, is effective and efficient enought to aid survival.

You said "As this thread is specified with Christianity, let us further discuss only Christianity and not religion in general". I'm sorry I cannot help but to discuss religion in general, as most religion is similar to the form of christianity. And all of them are theistic in nature. But I guess you have a point, Christian hell is like fires and lavas, while Muslim hell is like scimitars and blades. hehe :D

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I assume that you have not read my post carefully. I have justified that your view that the "test" of entering heaven as unfair is incorrect and that for us, the test is fair in any way.
God indeed know whether an unborn infant will end up in heaven or hell but God is irresponsible for the result as the infant will come upon any opportunity to accept God into their life which will prevent them from going to hell. For example, you have the knowledge that believing in God and accepting Him as your God will earn you a place in His Kingdom. However as you are incredulous, and prefer your own ways, you have repudiated God and the chance to go to Heaven. Its your choice 100%, and for that it is not "unfair" that you may not enter Heaven.

Mankind are not enslaved by their own destiny. We make them, as every decision in our lives depends on our choice. Even though God may know the outcomes, He does not want us to be robots, and rather intends to give us free choices in life. God is wanting us to accept Him into our lives and enter His Kingdom as rightful childrens. Its our ignorance towards Him that leaves ourselves in Hell. Simple as that.

Please forgive the statement "People are not born to do evil while some are born to do good." I was intending to say "people are not born to do evil but to do good." Strange result I must admit.

And your assumptions that are based with "time" suggests the life time in earth, and the power of mankind. Let me discuss that God governs time and that nothing is impossible to Him. When a man is with God, then he is not the man of the world even though he may be a man in and from the world. What I am implying is that when someone is with God therefore accepts Him as their one and only God, a man becomes man of God, not of the world. See now the world is wicked and its state of abhorrence and terror is aggravating. When a person is with God, he or she will gain His protection, His love, and His salvation, promoting good in the world as well as serving Him.
The central idea is that a religious person will not be the same as the physical world, as they will have a spirit that others dont possess. So what ever man of the world will have against a spirit that loves God, nothing can withstand as a religious spirit is more powerful and pure than any other in the world.

To a religious eye, the spiritual function is "to serve and follow the Words of God."
To a biological eye, the physical function is "to survive, and reproduce better surviving men". As science and religion are not the same thing, there are separate functions for mankind.
Through the biological eye, survival may still apply in the third world countries, however for the rest,currently it is being and possessing the palmary that is the main function.

Now let me point out that religion and the followers of religion are different. Religion is system dedicated to god(s) that are immaculate in their holiness,purity and goodness. The followers of religion are mankind that serves the god in a particular religion and as they are mankind, they are sometimes unholy, suffer from impurity and turn away from their god to act evil deeds. It is incorrect that religion has cons, it is the follower of religion that demonstrate cons and acts that are recognised as shame to their religion.

Why dont you make a separate thread for discussing religious aspects you like to cover, because Christianity is not the only religion and there are a range of users that believe in different religions that can also input in your discussion.

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

Nope, sorry, but you're so far wrong I find it hard to credit.

Your faith in Google is no doubt excellent news for Messrs Page & Brin, but it has nothing to do with any kind of proof.

Unfortunately, the sites you link to are no use to me, being nothing but blind assertion and based upon the bible, i.e. the same as all other religious historical sites. You may not have understood the reference I made to "contemporary". That means historical records from the time of Jesus.

There are none, apart from the bible.

I suggest you check this out with your pastor if you don't want to believe me, but it is factual that no contemporary historical evidence exists. I can guarantee you that if some were to turn up at this late stage, it would be the most earth-shattering news of the century.

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http://www.religionfacts.com/christi...tory/jesus.htm
Sources on the Life of Jesus
The earliest available records of the life of Jesus are the four Gospel narratives, which were written by Jesus' followers within a few decades of his death. A handful of other sources from the first and the second centuries, including Christian, Roman, Jewish, and Gnostic sources, also mention Jesus.

What is this handful of other sources from 1st and 2nd centuries? I have no knowledge in any other sources about Jesus other than the bible, but I do not need written "proof" that He existed, because belief comes from the spirit, and written proof cannot turn the atheist to a Christian unless the Holy Spirit helps you so. Thank you for a spiritual refreshment, I have reminded myself that even though there may be limited written sources of the life of Jesus, the Holy Spirit that acts to move people to spread the Word of Jesus through generations is almighty.

Time is the problem.

Linear time as we experience it – that is, in our Christian case – first sin then punishment, only happens when space moves. If nothing moved there would be no time.

Since we now realize that God isn't sitting up in the clouds with the angels, our conception of God is that He exists outside the universe, in a godlike spiritual dimension. Not in space. Therefore not in time.

So when He creates somebody He already knows is doomed to eternal torment, He takes no responsibility for that?

Must be nice to be God. No responsibility and all.

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Originally Posted by skasian

I am a devoted Christian, and I have been asked similar questions about hell by many atheists or people that are interested in becoming a Christian.
We believe that hell exists as a realm that is inexplicable in terms of eternal suffering, pain and agony and because there is no sense of time or space, there is no way out forever. Hell is governed by satan and devils and they inflict abhorrent terrors unimaginable.
Now many people have asked the question who goes to Hell and why do people go there when God does cherish each and every one of us, and how come good people in the world that dedicate their life for other people can also go to hell.
The answer is that they do not have belief and faith in God, Jesus.
No matter how many good deeds you do in life, if you do not confess Jesus as your God then you go to Hell. Harsh, but true.
In order to be saved from hell, theres only one way, and that is Jesus once again. Jesus is the bridge between our world and Heaven, and without Him, you may not enter Heaven.
I know that God hates to see that His children have to suffer in Hell forever, but the ones that do not know him and love Him must be punished eternally.
I have been thinking about the people in the world, the ones that it is not their fault that they do not know God. I wondered what will happen to them. I thought it was not fair for them to miss out the good news about Jesus and how He can be their salvation. But it is evident in the Bible that it is us, Christians' duty to spread the good news about Jesus to these people that never heard about Him. I am still not sure what will happen to those people who it isnt their fault that they do not know Him, but one thing I am sure is that we must spread the Word about God.
Then it is up to them to whether to have faith with him and begin to have the greatest relationship with Him which will change their lives forever. See the love of God. See the glory of God. See how we are priceless in the eyes of the Lord. From then on, they will begin to get closer to God, and get closer to the His Kingdom where they will serve and share the joy together with God.

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That's got to be about the biggest piece of bull**** i've ever read.

That right there - that's scare tactics. Fear.

Yes when us non believers die we all go to dance with the devil in hell for all of eternity forever and ever and ever.

See that belief, which not all christians hold is insanely flawed and does not make sense of much at all.

Maybe your hell is my heaven.