Hi, just wondering if anyone knows where to find Gravity's Rainbow and The Bell by Sylvia Plath online. Also, do you recomend these novels? What are some of your favorite post WWWII novels/ short stories? thanks
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Hi, just wondering if anyone knows where to find Gravity's Rainbow and The Bell by Sylvia Plath online. Also, do you recomend these novels? What are some of your favorite post WWWII novels/ short stories? thanks
Www.amazon.com Try there.
I really dislike 20th century American Literature. It's all about adventure and finding yourself, which I've always viewed as trite. Eh. To each his own.
As apposed to 19th century American literature which was about...?
I love it! Maybe you're reading the wrong stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Hill
The only American literature I enjoy is American Romanticism from authors such as Hawthorne and Melville. Kerouac, JD Salinger, Steinbeck, Fitzgerald; I can do without them. It's not awful, but it isn't anything that catches my attention.
What about Wallace Stevens? T. S. Eliot? Willa Cather?
T.S. Eliot, sure. Willa Cather, absolutely not. I've never read Wallace Stevens.
I do like T.S. Eliot, particularly "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"
One thing I've noticed, is that Dos Passos doesn't seem to be discussed much in these forums, I can't remember even having seen his name mentioned... why is that so?
In all my college endeavor, both undrergrad and grad school, I've never had to read Dos Passos in any class. I don't think he's pushed much in the University. I've still never read him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Etienne
Nor have I.
This, it seems to me, is a very myopic statement, entitled to this opinion as you are. 20th Century American Literature cannot be summed up in a single sentence or in a simple phrase. I think that by simply listing the names of authors so different from one another yet all American - Thomas Pynchon, Saul Bellow, Raymond Carver, Junot Diaz, Toni Morrison, Willa Cather - I am discrediting your statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Hill
For a more nuanced and learned introduction to American literature, I recommend From Puritanism to Postmodernism by Malcom Bradbury.
Oh my, one is entitled to his opinion, sir. No need to attempt to shoot it down, especially considering all tastes are naught but opinions in the first place.
And to call my opinion uneducated is a bit of an assumption, no? This considering I have taken several American Literature classes and am going on to teach English. I concede that not ALL American literature is as described, though, in my opinion, the authors you've listed do not astonish either, for different reasons.
I've heard Gravity's Rainbow is a must read but I haven't got around to it. I have it saved on this hard drive but probably won't be reading it here.
The Bell Jar I do not recommend. Depressing, slow, dry. There were a few memorable scenes, though.
Well, to play the devils advocate, you haven't read Wallace Stevens. He's like the central figure of 20th century poetry - though some would say Eliot.
http://www.sylviaplath.de/ Site doesn't have the complete text of "The Bell Jar" [also http://www.sylviaplathforum.com/plath-sites.html ]
I will suggest what I am most familiar with.Quote:
Originally Posted by americanlit
Hemingway wrote novels dealing with the war directly (A Farewell to Arms) and the interwar period and lost generation (The Sun Also Rises). I am not familiar with For Whom the Bell Tolls, as of yet, so I could not say.
As for the discussion of 20th century American literature as a whole, there is certainly as much literary merit in the States as anywhere else (except perhaps Ireland).
Outside of Fitzgerald and Steinbeck (the latter I find dreadful), there is Hemingway, Faulkner, Wallace Stevens, Ezra Pound, W.H. Auden, T.S. Eliot, and others outside of the early 20th century that I'm unfamiliar with.
Simply for the fact that Faulkner, Pound, and Eliot were Americans makes worthwhile 20th century American Literature. Of course, ignore the fact that the two poets left the country never to return.
EDIT: I misread the original post. You asked for WWII. This I cannot help you with.
hawthorne and melville aren't unassailable. melville's pierre is full of the pretentious bombast that hawthorne himself couldn't stand; and hawthorne's marble faun is yet another variation of a tired old theme, guilt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Hill
post ww2 american literature which can stand up to any include john cheever's short stories and the latter half of john updike's rabbit tetralogy.
I cannot agree with your comment on American literature but I would say that there has been a dirth of great writing both in the USA and Europe since WW11; I cannot speak for other parts of the world as I have not studied them but it is likely that a similar situation applies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Hill
Much of the writing that has achieved recognition since WW11 is as a result of clever marketing; a case in point being `Catch-22` a mildly, but self- consciously, funny book about the folly of war. It is this `Hey! Look how clever I am ` quality that denies so many post-war writers any claim to importance.
The American authors you have mentioned favourably did not need this form of self-advertisement in their writing and neither, I would contend, did Hemingway, Scott Fitzgerald, Steinbeck etc. etc. The difference in their style was partly occasioned by the disruption of WW1 on the arts per se but I would submit that they are not inferior to their predecessors.
However, the hallmark of post WW11 writing , as with the arts in general, is a lack of profundity that relegates much of it to the superficial. Obviously, I am not referring only to the `best sellers` but writing in general.
Perhaps this post will engender a negative response from those who identify with the post-war period more readily than I do and names such as Roth, Bellow, Rushdie, Amis, Grass, Boll etc.etc.will be mentioned, but I suggest that they only go to underline my theory.
If that is not the case, a glance at the writers most frequently mentioned within this forum will.
American 20th century drama is pretty good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Hill
A lot of modern classics were written by Americans. Don't like Lolita? The Great Gatsby? Of Mice and Men? To Kill A Mockingbird?
Lolita was written by Vladimir Nabokov, a Russian, and The Great Gatsby was mediocre. Of Mice and Men and To Kill a Mockingbird were not awful, though I can't claim impressed.
Wallace Stevens is, with Faulkner, the great of American 20th century literature. Since you haven't read Stevens, I don't know how you can comment on American literature, as it is essentially impossible to read second-half century American poetry with a good understanding without reading Stevens, and his contemporary William Carlos Williams.
I've said nothing negative of the poetry. I adore T.S. Eliot. I think the 20th century American novel is overrated, and overdone in Lit classes, thus I may tire of it and in this may lie my only distaste for the school of Literature. I do not hate it, mind you, I merely see it as mediocre.
You said American literature - so poetry isn't literature anymore?
But I had specified in reply to your inquiry that I enjoyed T.S. Eliot and the like. I admit to a sweeping generalization in my first comment, but I do not retract the statement entirely, merely do I add exemptions to its jurisdiction. Few exemptions, that do not damage the integrity of my aforementioned opinion on 20th century (especially post World War II, as this topic is centered upon) American literature. I find the majority of it-- and here lies the distinction between a human, who would generalize without thinking that there may perhaps be one or two poets enjoyable, lies-- to be rather uninteresting. This is opinion, and cannot rightly be opposed by more opinion, as that is in contrast to the very definition of "opinion". To my opinion-- which, to be clear, (and now amended) states that "most 20th century American literature-- especially that after World War II, and excluding a few poets such as T.S. Eliot, and a few novelists such as Kurt Vonnegut-- does not particularly (note, not fill me with horrid resentment and abomination) interest me to the point in which I would actively pursue the consumption thereof."
Specification seems my only savior.
The second world war ended in 45, and quite frankly the individual betterment mythos seems more a product of the first half, though you haven't read Stevens, so how could you possibly hope to understand 20th century American literature.
I don't see how the consumption of works by one poet can encompass all of a school of literature, though I take your word seriously and will study Stevens before drawing any further conclusion. I thank you for your vigorous suggestions.
Whilst I am reluctant to take sides with anyone who could describe The Great Gatsby as mediocre, I have to agree with your comment here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Hill
I happen to think that Gatsby is one of the greatest novels ever written but, considering the wide range of American literature, I would hesitate to suggest that it is essential to an understanding of the whole.
You forget that a) there is more to literature than novels, and b) even novelists know this, and many of them read poetry extensively.
Not having read the central poet, and commenting on the whole, is like talking about Southern Gothic without having read Faulkner.
But yeah, I guess since it's not a novel it doesn't count - yeah right, good luck then.
Either way though, the second half of the twentieth century in American literature doesn't seem to be about the betterment of the individual as you suggest, but more about the failure of the individual.
But then again, you haven't read Stevens, so who knows what other giants you haven't read.
One genre, novels, isn't literature, and isn't enough to understand a time period, even if you are only talking about novels.
I've read Gravity's Rainbow twice and I can't tell you much about it except the first line:
A screaming came across the sky.
The name of its main character:
Tyrone Slothrop
I know that it's nihilistic and absurd. I also know that I didn't get the jokes or the point. I have it on the shelf and I'll probably read it again, but Pynchon writes from a place that I don't quite get. But he's like a car wreck, you can't look away.
Other post-WW2 writers/works I'd recommend are Vonnegut (Cat's Cradle and Slaughterhous-Five), Barthelme, Cheever, and Barth (try Giles Goat-Boy).
Never read The Bell Jar. Probably won't.
It would be impossible to dispute that poetry is not literature but, notwithstanding the fact that some authors have also written poetry, the reading public are largely concerned with novels. If that were not so, there would be as many books on poetry as there are novels in the average bookstore. I don't doubt that poetry can open up insightful perspectives in a way that novels cannot, but they are two different disciplines and if someone prefers novels as a way of seeing the world, that is what they will read.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
I dont think I said that post-WW11 American writing is about the betterment of the individual, but I agree with you that it's more about the failure of the individual.
there's some validity to the notion that affluence is anathema to great literature, the premise being that great literature is synonymous to great subject matter, and that comfortable middle to upper middle class lives are hardly the stuff to inspire awe and wonder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Bean
i wouldn't be so cynical to think, however, that acclaimed post ww2 american literature is due to slick advertisement, nor naive enough to think that publishers of melville, hawthorne, hemingway and scott fitzgerald were above exaggerations and embellishments. furthermore i wouldn't classify fitzgerald's stories about young, idle and rich americans squandering their wealth and making *** of themselves in europe and elsewhere exactly thought provoking.
Oh yeah, so we should ignore the poetic tradition - it has had no effect on American letters...
Seriously that's closed minded. You'd be surprised how many people are effected by Wallace Stevens, how many wannabe poets scribbling crummy lyrics are so enveloped by him without even knowing. Just go to the Personal Poetry board - it wreaks of Stevens.
Fair enough for the first one :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Hill
To Kill A Mockingbird was actually mediocre, I just put that on because some people like it.
The Great Gatsby was not mediocre. You may have not liked it, but how can you dismiss this as 'mediocre'?:
And as I sat there, brooding on the old, unknown world, I thought of Gatsby's wonder when he first picked out Daisy's light at the end of his dock. He had come such a long way to this blue lawn, and his dream must have seemed so close he could hardly fail to grasp it. But what he did not know was that it was already behind him, somewhere in the vast obscurity beyond the city, where the dark fields of the republic rolled on under the night. Gatsby believed in the green light, the orgastic future that year by year recedes before us. It eluded us then, but that’s no matter — tomorrow we will run faster, stretch out our arms farther... And one fine morning ——
I find it thought provoking that all of the books you have on your pending list are pre WW11. We can't know for certain but we can be reasonably sure that few, if any, of the post WW11 writers you have recommended will still be in demand some 80 years after they were written.Quote:
Originally Posted by PabloQ
Incidentally, I know from previous posts that you have read McTeague and The Octopus by Frank Norris as part of your tour of American writers. I don't know if you have read The Pit but it is the culmination of his work; being the last book he wrote before he died at the age of thirty-two. He never lived to write The Wolf; the last in his projected trilogy. I would so liked to have read it. His death is a real American tragedy.
Yes, it's wonderful writing and one can only feel sorry for those who are unable to see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by kelby_lake
Why are you trying to put words into my mouth? I haven't suggested or implied that poetry isnt integral to American letters and I don't deny that there are many people who find poetry wonderfully inspiring. There are plenty of contributers to this forum who participate in both.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
Where have I said that affluence is anathema to great literature? And why are comfortable middle/upper class lives unable to inspire great writing?Quote:
Originally Posted by chasestalling
There is plenty of evidence to the contrary; Jane Austen and John Galsworthy are but two examples. One of the greatest German novels ever written is Buddenbrooks by Thomas Mann and is in similar vein.
You may think I am being cynical with regard to the hype that surrounds so much post WW11 writing and naive about pre-war publishers but it is hardly possible for someone to a cynic and a naif at one and the same time.
As for Fitzgerald's stories about wealthy young americans swanning around Europe and elsewhere, it's in the writing that they become interesting.
The primary purpose of my post was to respond to the original post in the thread. I quite agree that only time will tell if any of the authors I recommended will stand the test of time. I suspect Vonnegut's got a better chance than Pynchon does because Kurt's easier to understand. Pynchon though is clearly the better artist. He labors over the words whether the reader appreciates it or not. I still remember looking for missing pages at the end of The Crying of Lot 49. That one's right there on the reread list as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Bean
I was trying to give the original poster some other as yet unmentioned post-WW2 novelists to consider. More come to mind -- Mailer, Malamud, Bellow. All we know is that in their time, these authors have held critical acclaim, which gives them a better chance of survival over 80 years than selling a gazillion books about teenage wizards (sorry JBI, couldn't resist:brow:). I think some will be taught in high schools and colleges and others will fade away.
Which brings me to Norris. He's the best naturalist I've read thus far. The Pit is on the shelf in the post Dos Passos morass. I'm very much looking forward to it. But first, I've lined up America's 20th century giants for some samples -- Hemingway, Steinbeck, and Faulkner. I've read them before, but when I was younger and much less appreciative. Reading them on the heals of Fitzgerald and Dos Passos (not to mention Norris, Howells, Crane, and James) should give me enough background on this segment of American Literature (novel division) to post a few opinions.
p.s. I know Rowling is Scottish. Not the point.
Plenty is quite a hyperbolic word. I would ballpark at 10 - give or take, unless participate means post once.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Bean