Can someone give me some examples of poetry infused with philosophical and political themes?
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Can someone give me some examples of poetry infused with philosophical and political themes?
For the philosophical themes, maybe John Donne and Emily Dickinson? Not sure.
Milton's Paradise Lost
Wordsworth's The Prelude
Pretty much anything written in Iambic pentametre is argumentative, much of it is philosophical.
Also, pretty much anything by Wallace Stevens is philosophically deep.
The list for poems and poets who fit those qualifications is as long as the list of philosophers.
That's a funny remark. I can think of poems written in iambic pentameter that aren't particularly philosophical or argumentative.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
On the top of my head: some of Shakespeare's sonnets (or longer narrative poems), influenced by Neo-Platonic ideas.
Yeats' poetry is sometimes political.
Pentametre is for argument, anything less is for lyric, and anything more is usually comedic. The reason is that tetrametre lines aren't long enough for argument, but pentametre lines are too long for lyric, as they go beyond the natural 4 pulse sound of English.
Perhaps the metaphysical ramblings of Shakespeare's Richard II?
don't you think it's more of a christian history than philosophy? well, there's a great deal of rhetoric in it that's so central to humanist philosophy, but in it's scheme PL is not philosophical, or is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
It's written to "justify the ways of god to men." can we consider that philosophical?
You do realize these are generalisations, don't you? Obviously Shakespeare hadn't heard of this rule; have a look at his sonnets - oddly enough, he seems to be able to speak of his personal feelings in iambic pentameters:Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?
Thou art more lovely and more temperate:
Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May.
And summer's lease hath all too short a date.
Other example: the first stanza of Ode to a Nightingale:
MY heart aches, and a drowsy numbness pains
My sense, as though of hemlock I had drunk,
Or emptied some dull opiate to the drains
One minute past, and Lethe-wards had sunk:
’Tis not through envy of thy happy lot, 5
But being too happy in thine happiness,—
That thou, light-winged Dryad of the trees,
In some melodious plot
Of beechen green, and shadows numberless,
Singest of summer in full-throated ease.
And there are scores of other examples (in the Lyrical Ballads, for instance...). Iambic pentameter is probably the most common meter in English verse!
And why would the "four pulse sound" be natural? According to who?
i completely agree with you bitterfly. those are two of my favourite english poems that you cited. what would be english literature without iambic pentameters!
Shall I compare thee to a summer's day is argument. He is playing with different rhetorical tropes that seem to be flowery. Look - you misunderstood what I said because I think you have a different understanding as to what argument and lyric are in poetry. Sonnets naturally, and even moreso at that time were argumentative in nature. Notice how he sets up his question, "Shall I compare thee to a summer's day." then goes on to compare her to one, and then slams home with his final response. He does something similar in 138 where he compares, starting with his Mistress' eyes, and then eventually the way she walks, to idealized forms brought over from the Italian - specifically Petrarch.
The form of the sonnet, starting with the original Italian, is designed to set a question in the first octave, and then a response in the sestet. Shakespeare's form is modified slightly, because he plays off the innovations of Sidney. Yet still the core of the form remains, introducing a question/problem, and then finally bringing a significant about-face by the final couplet. The argument is behind the entire thing.
Now, this isn't to say that shorter-lined poems aren't argumentative, it is just to say shorter lines aren't. If you compare, for instance, a Shakespeare sonnet to Marlowe's The Passionate Shepherd to his Love, a highly lyrical poem, you can better see the difference in effect, and metre. The shorter metre creates a lyric, that is, a song-like pulse, which is followed through the whole poem. The longer 5 iamb line doesn't seem able to have that quality in English, but is longer, thereby giving more ground for the poet to prove his point.
That being said, there are extremely deep and argumentative lyric poems; the one that comes to mind first is the Tyger by William Blake. Yet the lines there aren't argumentative. The poem relies on a combination of the lines, and repetitive phrases and questioning to create its argument.
As for Keats, his Ode is argumentative in sound. Try singing it; it doesn't really work as well as, for instance, Blake's hymn at the beginning of Milton.
That being said, in terms of the four beat sound - the four beats are the backbone, oldest aspect of English poetry. In the beginnings for instance, in Caedmon's Hymn, we already see the four-stress pattern in the work. This pattern carried through, and by the time Iambic Pentametre formed, it was still there. Listen to what you hear when you read, and you should notice that four beats are heard above the rest. That's the reason why something like trochaic tetrametre catalectic is so persuasive and so strong. It hits hard on what matters, and begins and ends on strong points, punching the ideas forward so when you hear a line "what the hammer what the chain" it pounds.
Believe me or don't about the for stress skeleton however, the argumentative verses lyric I hope makes sense to you more now, so you can at least see where I come from, if not agree.
Now back on topic, as for philosophical poetry, Swift, Pope, Johnson, and all the rest in the 18th century are probably your best bet. Though why anyone would like to read them... Well, I think I'm a minor opinion in loathing 18th century poets.
I'd thought about that counter-argument, have no fear! :p
First, I'll take your word about the for-beat, since you seem to know far more about archaic English poetry than I do.
But!
What I understand by "lyrical" is the accepted definition: a piece of poetry (or prose, for that matter) that expresses the emotions of the author (and which is musical). "Argumentative", on the other hand, for me, means poetry that's trying to demonstrate an idea -more intellectual (John Donne comes to mind, with his twisted conceits!). Shakespeare's sonnets are defined as "lyric poetry".
Your point about length allowing the poet more space to argue seems sound, by the way.
But I don't think that argumentative and lyrical are opposites in poetic practise: you find lots of poems which combine them, that lyrically try to defend an idea, if I may put it like that (like the sonnet I quoted) - but you admitted that already. That's why I think reserving iambic pentameter for argumentative poetry and tetrameters for lyrical poetry is a fallacious dichotomy, as I said before - because lots of good poems are both, either in pentameter or in tetrameter! It may have been true at one time, but I think the distinction no longer holds after Shakespeare (or maybe before, but I don't know much about pre-Shakesperian poetry).
If you look at The Rape of Lucrece and Venus and Adonis, by the way, you'll find (successful) lyrical passages in pentameter as well as argumentative passages.
And I must say I don't agree with you about the fact that "Ode to a Nightingale" doesn't sing well, but that's very possibly subjective. "Ode to Autumn" is also in iambic pentameters, by the way, and it seems to be lyrical to me. I wonder whether it isn't just that you, personally, don't enjoy lyricism when it comes in longer lines, and this discussion reminds me of what people think about alexandrines, in French poetry: they are also supposed to be more "intellectual", whereas the distinction is never that clear-cut.
Last example: Wordsworth's lyrical
How sweet it is, when mother Fancy rocks
The wayward brain, to saunter through a wood!
An old place, full of many a lovely brood,
Tall trees, green arbours, and ground flowers in flocks;
And Wild rose tip-toe upon hawthorn stocks,
Like to a bonny Lass, who plays her pranks
At Wakes and Fairs with wandering Mountebanks,
When she stands cresting the Clown's head, and mocks
The crowd beneath her. Verily I think,
Such place to me is sometimes like a dream
Or map of the whole world: thoughts, link by link
Enter through ears and eyesight, with such gleam
Of all things, that at last in fear I shrink,
And leap at once from the delicious stream.
And to come back to the subject as well, I agree with you about eighteenth century poems being philososphical (and definitely un-lyrical :p ).
The Divine Comedy- A blending of theology, mythology, philosophy, and politics
De Rerum Natura (The Nature of Things)- A philosophical treatise on epicurianism. Topics include the absence of gods or the supernatural, the importance of reason, science, and a Roman age theory of atoms.
John Wilmot, Earl of Rochester, 'Upon Nothing' is a great one, where he argues that there is no point in anything, or that everything=nothing, because everything comes from nothing.
...and many of John Donne's poems are philosophical too.
Wallace Stevens is an excellent suggestion, much of his poetry has philosophical leanings. Walt Whitman is pretty good too.
If you're looking for something more modern you might want to check out the poetry of Louise Gluck or Mark Strand or perhaps even Ted Hughes would be excellent poets to try out.
With older poetry, John Donne, as has already been suggested, would be a good choice. Go for his later poetry - in his early years he was obsessed with women, his later poetry is obsessed with death. Makes for an interesting read!
For political poetry, I suppose you could try Alan Ginsberg or Adrian Mitchell or any of the Beat poets. For a more modern twist try Simon Armitage.
Good luck with your search.