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I would like to know how many people here believe in either the evolution or creation view, and how many who don't know what to believe. I'm trying to post a poll in this thread, and as this the first time I'm doing it, I'm not sure if it comes out right, so bear with me this time, okay? :p
You accept a theory as fact or your reject it as fact. Believing in something is about opinion, whereas acceptance of something is about knowledge.
I can believe that I can fly, but that doesn't make it true. I can reject the knowledge that tells me that I cannot fly and therefore still make my belief reasonable. If I accept the knowledge that I cannot fly but still believe I can fly anyway, I'm unreasonably believing in something.
Evolution is a fact that is explained by theory because that's how science works. Whether you accept or reject it is up to you. Creationism is a belief that is explained by the Bible alone. Whether you believe in it or not is also up to you. The point is: In evolution the evidence is put into data both physical and theoretical, which have been analyzed and made sense of for years over, constantly changing so as to be more accurate over time. In creationism the evidence is testimonial evidence displayed through the Bible which may or may not be the word of God. There's no "evidence" of creationism displayed in any manner, outside of attempts to disprove evolution. The entire creationist argument is centered 99% on disproving evolution, instead of proving its own "theory" of creationism because, as most might say, we're not meant to understand God's plan for creation. Or if you want to be blunt: 'I don't know, but I believe you're wrong anyway' mentality.
Anyway, that's my opinion on the matter, based on my experience with how each side works. Evolutionary biologists almost never take creationism seriously for good reason: They've got evidence of their theory, whereas all creationism has sought to do is pop illogical and emotionally driven holes in evolution that have nothing to do with the theory itself. Personally speaking, the whole "vs" idea of evolution against creation is absurd because the argument comes down to Biblical truth as being capable of being interpretted as scientific truth or the dismissal of such truths as merely literature that is more philosophy than scientific fact.
A bit of a long-winded reply, but I do find it more succint to get the basics out of the way early. heh
Evolution seems plausible, but how did evolution start, would that not need a creation of some kind?
Evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life. It only has to do with how life evolved over time to become what it is today.
Biology and astronomy take over when it comes to how it all began. It all began with a "bang" which eventually led to the creation of planets through elements getting together in clumps and once the heat cooled down at a certain point land was created, eventually gases created certain amounts of liquid, which was probably triggered by asteroids with ice on them. Eventually abiogenesis took place, wherein amino acids started the protein filled life of the first type of life, in simple bacteria, however this is considered somewhat improbable by most, we don't know what the odds of life are outside of exactly 1, since we exist here now.. Over time, about 4.5 billion years, they evolved into something more in different ways.
There's a run down of the basics, with sources, so you can pick up what you will and interpret it how you like in time. It all comes back to the big bang, when you say "creation", but that's a whole other discussion. This thread is supposed to be about evolution, which in my opinion, is pretty damned factual and researched.
Ditto.
Out of sheer curiousity, Dyrwen, why aren't you voting in the poll if you have such strong opinions on the subject?
Because it's just a poll and my position is already pretty clear as it is. I like to think of it as educating a voting populous, or something. I could also say that I'm perhaps not voting so that if by some stretch of the imagination I'm proven incorrect in all that I know is correct, I'll be able to vote my opinion on the matter accurately then. heh
I don't know, guess I'm more stubborn than anything. Personally I don't see creationism as much of a choice when it comes to "versus" evolution, since it isn't even in the same league. One is about the creation of everything, the other is about the evolution of life after it existed. They've nothing to do with eachother, outside of the fact that creationists seem to enjoy proding at evolution because it is somehow a threat to their beliefs when it doesn't even involve the origin of life until one continues asking the "why" question throughout about science.
Hopefully that made some sense. I'll vote if it'll please the court, heh, but it just feels a little better to explain myself adequately than be another number in the poll pigeonholled in a position.
*checks the poll results*
huh-uh...
I find it interesting that many of us on here will talk and discuss things till subjects are exhausted and more but will not commit ourselves into certain things... Won't answer a simple 'yes/no' question at times. ;)
I think there should be a bit of column a and b response.
i believe in both theories. like creation already happening, and evolution catching up to it, if that makes sense. :confused: ok that sounds strange, lol. but there isn't a both category. ;)
Yeah creationism is primarily my belief, but I believe that perhaps evolution was a tool, and the Bibal does not really contradict the evolutionist theory...
so in brief: God did it!
hmm.... I've seen too much evidence to believe that humans were created around six thousand years ago and a great flood around four thousand years ago.
I once had this discussion with a freind of mine who ended up giveing me these videos of this evengalist preacher citing sources for eveidence in creation... his first problem was that he assumed that humans evolved from rocks and are in some ways related to alligators... the only way we are is that we both breathe oxygen and we have the same four base paris in our DNA... Other of his theories, I could find flaws in them at only tenth grade but people none the less listen to it. I would not be surprised to learn that Adam and Eve were real humans once upon a time and that they once lived in a garden and were then banished from it to live admist all the others human... (but thats just me saying that anything is possible but I for one acknowledge evolution as a fact)
The diests believe that god created the universe and then let it run on its own, this would give rise to both creation (a little) and evolution... scientists have actually recreated the atmoshpere and the conditions which they believed inhabited early earth and with sparks of electricity created the most minor forms of single celled base organisms (this experiment, i do not know the details of, forgotten it but know it has been done) and there are mitochondria and chloroplast DNA which seems to indicate that these seperate cell organnelles fused withother organelles to create cells liek we have them today. What I have said here is just the basis of a long list of cellular, molecular, theoretical, and many other forms of evolution.
I haven't decide my stand on this issue.
jester is correct, scientist have reproduced some of the conditions...but this doesn't leed to an anti creationist theory. Now if we say that the bibal is a metaphor, or parable, to explain ideas to people, people of old would not be able to comprehend ideas of evolution etc. Now in the Bibal it states that Adam was created out of the earth, God used the Earth to build Adam, now it is concievable that clay in early earth was an important factor in the scientific origins of life. the clay acts as a sponge inwhich to hold all of the needed 'ingriediants' together. Now it also sais that Eve came from Adam, ie, single cell division. So in conclusion the Bibal does not really dispute evolutionist theories.
Well, then, are you trying to say that if I left a tub of water, for example as it was, that I would get a fish/ shark etc. in it if I wait for billions of years??! Sounds pretty incredible if you ask me. :brow: Everything wouldn't be able to fit together nicely as it is now, if there was no God who made it, isn't it?
And, if you look at it this way, the Bible, (which I know is the Word of God) has so many prophecies that have clearly been fulfilled so far- every single one of them. Wouldn't creation (God making everything for HIS sole pleasure) be true too? Considering, if you DO bother to look, there are heapsss of evidence to show that it did?
By the way, science cannot PROVE anything. The only limitations of science are that it cannot prove anything, is NOT 100% reliable, and must conform to a scientific method. A scientist may come up with a theory, that "explains" evolution, while in the next moment, another scientist might come up with a counter-example, that contradicted the scientific experiment. Of course, we CAN use science to observe, and thus form conclusions, but what I'm trying to say is that even science is NOT 100% reliable, so it doesn't PROVE anything.
In reply to Stanislaw, I found a commentary by Adam Clarke which you might like to read: (it's for Genesis 2:7)
"Gen 2:7 -
God formed man of the dust - In the most distinct manner God shows us that man is a compound being, having a body and soul distinctly, and separately created; the body out of the dust of the earth, the soul immediately breathed from God himself. Does not this strongly mark that the soul and body are not the same thing? The body derives its origin from the earth, or as עפר aphar implies, the dust; hence because it is earthly it is decomposable and perishable. Of the soul it is said, God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; נשמת חיים nishmath chaiyim, the breath of Lives, i.e., animal and intellectual. While this breath of God expanded the lungs and set them in play, his inspiration gave both spirit and understanding."
-E-Sword v.6.5.0
The english Bible as we have it today was translated from either Aramic or Hebrew (for the old testament) for the new, it was Greek. If you study the languages, and do a word study on the word, the exact meaning of the word in either Aramic or Hebrew, could most probably not be phrased into english. (It's a bit like that for the New testament/Greek, so mightn't it be so also for the old testament?)
Also, about the time period? God did fashion man out of the dust of the earth, but what of the time issue? According to evolution, wouldn't it need to take ages? And God formed Adam in one day- day 6. Th Bible says that God created the heavens and the earth, and everything that was in it in 6 days. And, after EVERY single day, God said that His creation was good. Consider, that if man had formed slowly over a period of time, it wouldn't have been so good, isn't it?
We really would like to you to explain. Why do you think that things done in in shorter time are better?Quote:
Consider, that if man had formed slowly over a period of time, it wouldn't have been so good, isn't it?
Technically speaking, it took a few billion years just to get microorganisms to evolve from the primordial soup, but once they were out there, everything else was able to come about later on. So if you want a straight answer, which I know you do, you won't get a shark or fish. You might get some microorganisms, eventually some sort of underwater creature which may or may not look like a fish depending on what you put in the water. It certainly would be a new species entirely, since there wouldn't be any reproduction going on with anything else beforehand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelheid
If you really want to understand how life began that way, I suggest reading this lovely little explanation called "From Soup to Cells" by the Berkeley science department. It's quite expansive and gives you all the evidence of theory that you need.
First off, that sentence was barely intelligible. Secondly, there's a lot of evidence right now that this world didn't need some God making it to become as complex as it is. Furthermore, if you're going to go into the theology realm, I can always just ask "What made God?" seeing as he's pretty complex, too. Of course, I'm pretty sure I know what your response to that will be, seeing as it doesn't take a genius to use circular logic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelheid
I'm not getting into a Biblical debate with you because it isn't my peroggative and there are plenty of others who do that for a living, but as far as your prophecy stuff goes, I'd say that they haven't been fulfilled and have been past due for quite some time. But whatever, I'm not here to fight Bible scripture with you, though a friend of mine took some time once to delve into the matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelheid
I've looked around and have been for the past 4-5 years for evidence of God, or at least something half-assedly true about creationism. Hell, the flood alone is proven false by how sedimentary rocks work in the grand canyon. There's already fossil evidence of dinosaurs, billion year old bacteria, hominids evolving over time in various ways. Tell you what, I've been looking around for years and haven't found any evidence, perhaps you'd be kind enough to display some of it so that I might be proven wrong or at least can analyze it myself? That's not too much to ask I hope.
Nothing is provable (seeing as we might not even exist and could be in a dream world without knowing it, etc), but I follow that which is possible beyond a reasonable doubt. The evidence for evolution is strikingly overwhelming and the lack of evidence of any gods is as such as well, considering I do not believe the Bible is anything but literature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelheid
I never said science can prove evolution is correct, but I did say that it is pretty well documented that it occurs and the evidence shows it so well that a good deal of the world accepts it as fact. 55% of scientists believe that man has developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life and God had no part in the process. Also, 97% of the world doesn't believe that the Earth was created in six days purely because the evidence suggests 4.5 billion years ago is much more reasonable a time, even if there was a God involved.
The point is: Evolution has a lot of documented evidence for it, much more than the contrary evidence, and is therefore regarded as factual theory more so than just some humdrum explanation for the way things are. Show some evidence of creationism not directly quoted from the Bible and maybe you'll make more of a case for it.
It is perhaps a figurative way to describe the events, another metaphor that must be examined and contemplated to reveal the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelheid
There are also less 'scientific' theories for the concept of evolution, such as Only God is perfect enough to creat a person directly, and that Evolution was the work of Satan. Now that could explain why there were other groups on the earth when Adam and Eve arrived.
At our religion classes (how to call in English such a subject? If trsanslated directly from Polish it's religion, but I don't really know if it's correct) our priest always told us that creation and evolution don't exclude each other because science and religion belong to a different category. Like in Thomas Aquinas: the difference between faith and knowledge.
Indeed Monica, you're quite correct.
Faith is of a category of beliefs. Knowledge is of a category of sciences. Science means, from Latin at least, "having knowledge". Faith comes from the Latin of, "to trust". So in simple definitive terms, one can quite easily follow both. Science is about the systematic organization of knowledge in evolution's case, but creationism is more a matter of faith in the Bible, that is, unless there's scientific evidence out there to back up creationism, in which case it'd get to play ball alongside the sciences instead of just the religious studies.
Dyrwen, several posts back you said exactly what i was going to say, thanks, couldn't have said it better....
About the bath tub thing though, a couple of ver specific elements are needed like phosphuros and then electricity is needed,
stan i could see where you were going with the eve from adam thing, but eve was created from adam's rib, and at that point in time when the bible was written down, as it was written down, they would have no knowledge of these things (unless God filled thier head with doctorates that spent lifetimes trying to achieve their knowledge and a couple thousand years to get as far as they did) then metaphors as good as they sound, just don't seem plausible enough...
Adelhied, I'd like you to know that you may "KNOW" that GOd's word is in the bible, but many scientist out there KNOW that something else is going on besides God and htye feel the same way about science as you do about GOD
as Dyrwen said, nothing is can be prooven to a hundred percent becuase we rely on our senses to acknowledge reality therefore we may think we know something and it oculd be a lie... (think Matrix, that movie freaked me out becuase it brought rise to the fact that that could be our world, and we aren't really alive!)
My feelings on spirituality have been expressed here before, so this particular post may seem a little........different....or maybe just irrational......
Evolution does not neccessarily preclude a God. A god does not neccessarily preclude evolution.
:) i like how you put that - i just figured god created both.
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Originally Posted by baddad
I could not have explained my opinion better, nor in less words.Quote:
Originally Posted by amuse
first of all, i'm not a christian, but i have read a lot of stuff re: the bible, like in my late teens, and "day" is actually kind of ambiguous. who's to say that god's days are in the same time frame as those here on planet: earth, galaxy: milky way? ;) it really depends how you look at "time" to decide what's "good" and what isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelheid
The Babylonian Enuma Elish offers an interesting take on religious thoughts, it almost follows an evolutionary aproach.
it is worth skimming through!
Shouldn't Science be supporting your faith? If Creation or evolution for that matter really DID happen, shouldn't there be scientific evidence?Quote:
Originally Posted by Monica
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taliesin
I'm sorry, I should have explained myself a little bit better. :D What I was trying to say is that man (or creation for that matter) was created in six days. At the end of every day God always said it was good. If it did take that long to create a man, plant or animal, (millions or billions of years) the creation wouldn't have been even half completed in a day! Thus it wouldn't quite have been perfect yet, would it? That's what I meant, I think. :D
Hmm...I do believe in God and I believe that God created the universe, but I also believe in the theory of evolution. I dont take the bible's story of creation literally, i.e. the world etc. was made in 6 days. As the bible has been translated from numerous languages (aramaic to greek to engish) and sometimes there is no equivalent meaning for a specific word, perhaps the word days could have really meant a long period of time (say, a thousand years). Usually, words can get lost or changed in translation. Sorry, I dont know if I properly articulated what I wanted to say :)
That's alright, I understand you. :D I too sometimes find it hard to express myself properly, unlike some people. Anyway, just out from curiousity, I think, why wouldn't you take the Bible literally? I know that somewhere in the Bible it did say that a thousand years is as one day to God, as one day is as a thousand years to God. But obviously, Moses he writer of the book of Genesis could have only gotten the creation information from God. He was a close man with God. Wouldn't God have passed the truth to Moses? So that WE could understand it? Sometimes I think that the problem is that we try to figure things out too much. The truth might be infront of us! :D Sorry, on offense- it happens to everybody, isn't it?
Anyway, going back to the point, God would have given Moses the truth to record, as the Bible says it is impossible for God to lie. That's the only inpossible thing that God can't do. So, anyhow, that was the point I was trying to make hope u understand me too! :D
Yes, it is impossible for God to lie. God in essence is a perfect being, and hence cannot make a mistake and therefore lie. However, you do have to take into account the fact that the bible has been translated into many different languages and often words get lost in translation. Man is not perfect and has the propensity to error...so, how do you know that a 'mistake' or poor translation of texts didnt occur while the bible was made and translated? The first testament was translated from the Hewbrew to the Greek, then to the English. In my view (and i appologise in advance if this causes any offence, because i dont intend to offend any one) you can only take something to be the literal word of God if what was said remains unchanged. Because of translation, the essence of what was said remains the same, but it wont be literally word for word with the original.
That is very true, and I agree with you heartily. I myself studied that for some of the greek words or Aramic or hebrew in the case of the old testament, there may not be an exact word in English to replace it. That is why (and this I also learnt) that we should go back to the original language and dig deeper into the meaning of the passage that you wish to find out more about. I have done this for the new testament, and the result I got was so different from what you would normally understand from just reading the verse in plain English. Take for example the verse in Matthew- one of Jesus' sayings, "Blessed are the meek, for they shall ingerit the Kingdom of God." Well, you would imagine that Jesus was saying about those who give in easily, timid, etc. That is what the wourd meek means in the dictionary. However, this is not what Jesus actually meant!! The word in Greek which was poorly substituted for meek actually meant one with a strong will, but who yields his/her rights! Now, who would have thought of that! I certainly didn't!!! :-) But then look at Moses as an example he was not what you would call a meek man- after all he murdered an Egyptian out from anger (which shows he has to be strong in the first place!), and also out from anger struck a rock to which he was supposed to speak to. But God called Him a meek man, because he managed to control the strength of His anger or rights or whatever. I do hope you get me. :nod:
...Yeah, but I think the key word here is 'interpretation'. We can all read the same book and yet each of us reaches a different 'interpretation'. I think the idea of any religious tome is to give a general direction of the intent, but to interpret any Rel. text literally is at best dangerous. The world has moved on in many ways, and one would think a 'God' would have understood the concept of time and delivered his message in a general thesis that would therefore be timeless in texture..........
The TRUTH is everlasting. It is timeless. Whatever God wrote is the truth. God is truth...
God is truth...I like that. It sounds good. But what are you referring to God writing? Surely not the Bible, that was written by men as an interpretation of his message...
Well, Let's just put it as God used men to write the Bible for Him. In reality though, the work was God's. He gave them the words to put down, inspired them, gave them visions, in which He told them what to write, and what not to write (the book Revelation). Look at the gospels. Out of all these books, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, only Luke had a proper education. We know he is a doctor. The rest were fishermen! Fishermen do not have and education. So, really, the Bible is the work of God, put together by God. The ending is perfect. He wrote the last book Himself, really, because He told His disciple John exactly what to write. See how He ends:
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify these things to you for the assemblies. I am the root and the offspring of David; the Bright and Morning Star." The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" He who hears, let him say, "Come!" He who is thirsty, let him come. He who desires, let him take the water of life freely. I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to them, may God add to him the plagues which are written in this book. If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, may God take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book. He who testifies these things says, "Yes, I come quickly." Amen! Yes, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with all the saints. Amen." Revelation 22:16-21
For some Bibles, they use the colour Red to highlight the Words which Jesus said.
Used men? I'm sorry, but how? And why? Why use men, why not simply do it himself, or better still, why not ingrain it into every human's brain so there would be no need for any religious texts? Then there would be no need for Hell, or not for the atheists at any rate.
But there are obvious discrepancies in the Bible and all those texts, if God didn't mean to trick us by having them written, of course. The age of the world by the Bible is some thousands of years. But in actuality the world is over 4 BILLION years old.
And so God created the world....but he didn't, the Earth was created in just the same way as every other planet in the Universe. When the Sun was young, the leftovers from its (purely scientific) making spiralled around it, and clustered together to become the planets. The leftovers that didn't become planets became asteroids and planetoids.
Ah, also Adam and Eve, though I know this is the wrong board, there *were* what we call "mitochondrial Adam and Eve." We are all related; we share the same 10 000th great grandmother. She lived some 150 000 years ago (before the world was created, according to the Bible). As to Adam, he never even met Eve - they lived 85, 000 years apart. They weren't even the first couple, there were many other people around their time (though they didn't even share that time). These two are simply our common ancestors, the other lot were mixed in as well. For more info, go to BBC - Science and Genes - Adam & Eve or simply Google "Mitochondrial Adam and Eve".
What proof have we for the existence of Jesus? And who is Jesus in relation to God? Not his son; or how could Mary be a virgin? In any case, you can't have a kid without sacrificing virginity, or at least, I think there wasn't much IVF during their time. ;)
I remember when I was little, I stopped believing in Santa Claus and fairies and stuff like that very early, at about six or seven, and one Christmas I was staying at my relatives' place. I was talking to my cousin, who was about six years or so older than me, and was completely shocked that she still believed in Santa Claus. She also believed/s in God, which I also could not understand.
But back to the subject: do you believe in evolution+creation or just creation?
Anyway, must be off! :)
Miss Darcy
P.S. (Though this certainly should not be in the P.S.) I never saw the use of praying. Things are the way they're meant to be, even if there was a god. But if there was a use to praying, does he hear it? I mean, come on, some secret whispering is never gonna go far. If you want him to hear you, you have to go outside and YELL. Am I not correct?
Dear Miss Darcy,
First off, I must say that God's ways are higher, and deeper than our ways. I will not pretend to know everything. But I will try to answer some of the questions you ask the best I can, okay?
You asked "Used men? I'm sorry, but how? And why? Why use men, why not simply do it himself, or better still, why not ingrain it into every human's brain so there would be no need for any religious texts? Then there would be no need for Hell, or not for the atheists at any rate." God made man each with their own will. He wanted them to make their own decisions, to be able to decide for themselves. That is why no one can force you to do anything beyond your own will. Remember, the Bible says that we were made in the image of God. (However, that does not mean that we are God.)
The second thing you mentioned was about the age of the world. Since no man was there at the "beginning" of the world, to see how it created, why not trust God who was there? He is omnipresent and omniscient. He was always there. Our human mind cannot fathom it. We weren't made with the capacity to know everything. Only God knows everything, that's why He is God. We only know a tiniest fraction of what God chooses to reveal to us. Even the most learned men know nowhere near one tenth of everything. That being so, how would you know that the world is 4 billion years old? Science is basically the "instrument" used to observe things. Whatever it says cannot be totally right. However, we do know that God NEVER lies. The Bible is the inspired word of God, profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, instuction unto righteousness. Since God is truth, we know that His word, whatever He says is true too. Why should He lie about the age of the world? It is because men choose (out of their own free will that God gave them), to disregard the truth, that they find out various other means of explaining the things that was already stated as the truth. Of course, men can't ignore the world around us, that God made, so they would come out with theories such as evolution, and would try to use science to back up their hypothesis. Of course, some part of science might seem to back it up, but obviously, that won't hold up.
You ask what proof we have of Jesus. We have the "proof" of the eye-witnesses who wrote part of the Bible- Jesus Disciples. Think about it now, would a group of barely known, uneducated fishermen gang up with a doctor to come up with such a story : a man who came down into the world as a baby, called the Son of God? What would you then say about the miracles?
Also, the Bible says nothing is too hard for God. We will never understand about the virgin birth of our Lord, until God chooses to reveal it to us.
I never believed in Santa Claus, simply because there isn't one, and again, men used that to try and erase the timeless story of the birth of Christ. Christmas isn't about Santa Claus, it's about the birth of Jesus. Just as easter isn't about bunnies or easter eggs, its to remember the day when Jesus rose from the dead, and conquered death.
As to what I believe, I believe that every word of God is true and pure, that it is the Word of God. That it is the Truth. Therefore, nothing false could be found in it. So, I believe that God and God only created the world in 6 human days. And that the world is only thousands of years old. About 6-7 thousand, I think.
God hears all our prayers. Why don't you try? Sometimes, though, if GOd doesn't want us to have the particular thing we pray for He won't give it, because it's not good for us. God, in His love and mercy, wouldn't give His children bad things. There's this verse in the Bible that says something like this:
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?" Matthew 7:8-11
Or, if He says, "wait." THen of course the request won't come immediately. But whatever God does is for your good. It may seem like evil, but God meant it for Good. Ever readthe story of Joseph and His brothers? If not, it's a good story of how Joseph'd brother's meant him harm, but God used the situation to the whole nation's good. It's found in Genesis 37-50 (exclude chapter 38 if you don't want to read that.)
But thank you for all your questions. They are all straightforward, and I know you mean every single one of them. I tried to give you some of the answers. But if you want to know more, I would suggest getting a copy of the Bible.
P.S. Whew! This is probably the longest reply I've ever written! I hope you weren't tired of me! :D
Dear Adelheid,
No, surprisingly for me, especially considering the topic, I honestly didn't get tired of your reply. It was rather *checks herself* interesting. :) (To be frank, I was going to say "amusing", but then you see it's not all amusing and I also realised that would sound pretty mean. So I apologise for almost saying that...)
I'll do my best to answer your answers without offending you (and trust I will succeed; trust in my headstrong, atheist way ;) ).
They all say that, but I always wondered - why? (Possibly the most wondered question in philosophy) Why would a god LET THEM go to Hell, as a consequence of these free wills, that he himself gave them, and he himself (indirectly at least) shaped and cultivated? You surely must agree that man is only a product of his environment, and it is this environment which determines whether he is "good" or "evil", honest or dishonest. It also determines if he is stubborn, or yielding. The stubborn - off they go to Hell, at least in this particular case. (They can't help being stubborn, though, they are merely brought up to it.) The yielding - take up God and pray and believe, go to Heaven, and enjoy the wonders of afterlife.Quote:
God made man each with their own will. He wanted them to make their own decisions, to be able to decide for themselves. That is why no one can force you to do anything beyond your own will.
I'm headed to Hell beyond return. But I don't really worry about it, firstly, I don't believe it exists, I believe all human suffering that is necessary to make humans better and cure them of vice occurs here on solid earth, and secondly, I believe that even if it DID exist, it wouldn't be half as bad as religion makes it sound. God must have put it in that way to scare people into being good, obedient little lambs. But in reality it would be - well you see I have QUITE a different picture of Hell. It's mostly shaped by Czech fairy tales (filmed versions, real people, very good, enjoyable movies, and though mostly intended for children not babyish!). You see, they usually don't involve God (Z Pekla Stesti 2 is a rare example...hehe God and Satan are played by the same actor!) but they sometimes do the Devil (I refrain from calling him Satan as - well - the Devil is a lot nicer). The Czech version of Hell is a whole lot of devils with one ultimate leader (er...Satan...). They are not always bad. They cure the world of bad people. They cure the bad people of their badness. And the devils are very clever - devils - and they're actually very nice, apart from wanting to get a few blood signatures in exchange for, say, gold, etc. You can get out of the pact with the devil if he doesn't give you three wishes and make them happen. Well, this is off topic, but never mind. It's basically a hot, red, hollow cave-place underground, with a lot of fire, and pots where they boil the naughty souls. :D Hehe, I love Hell. Sorry. I really do. I think devils in general would make much better company than those stuck-up archangels in Heaven. That's me, personally, anyway. They have such a good sense of humour. Sometimes you get a chance before you get put into pots, and if the devil sees you're actually a good person (good persons in Hell? I ask you! But this is the Christian God view, mixed up with MY view of Hell), or an amusing person, you can make friends with him. *Smiles angelically* I think Hell would be a lot more fun than Heaven would.
Secondly, I wouldn't believe too inherently in all the doctrines, even if I was Christian. You can't believe them, I mean, on what grounds can you be sure it's really God-inspired, and not (forgive me), merely a joke a few guys put together ages ago to see who would be insane enough to believe in it. Exaggeration, but you get my drift. Think for yourself. Reason!
Why would God make the world in 7 (did you say 6?) days anyway. He couldn't, there's too much stuff for making it in seven days. On the other hand, if he's so powerful why would he not simply make it all in one day. And by "the world" are we speaking of planet Earth? If so, I repeat, that was made along with the other planets, and not for any specific purpose; if we're speaking of the spiritual world, well, maybe. But the solid world was certainly not made by a metaphysical entity. If we're speaking of the Earth - then by what are we measuring days? Because, as you know, a day is one complete rotation of the Earth - how can you measure time in days before the Earth was even created?
And we have EVIDENCE, yes, evidence, of creatures who lived millions of years ago; this is proof, not faith. Science, yes, only measures, only observes, and puts things together using measurement, observation, and reasoning. But there is at least grounds for belief, not simply books, but actual fossils. And it also makes sense!
The riddle of Epicurus:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
(So it's not just me asking these questions)
And there's a quote:
Which comes across to me as very funny and very true. There are many quotes, we could be quoting forever, you the Bible and Genesis, me various atheists, scientists and spiritual leaders from around the world, but well, let's stick to our own opinions as much as we can. But just this once, do you mind if I...:D...thanks.Quote:
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -Stephen Roberts.
-Which I also think is a pretty clever argument. Yep. We atheists sure are clever devils. ;)Quote:
If God made the Earth, then why do we want to go to heaven?
Hehe, I like this one, makes me chuckle. This is why I ask if God can hear you when you pray. And is he almighty? What has he done to prove he exists?Quote:
"It's hard to be religious when certain people don't get incinerated by lighting bolts" - Calvin & Hobbes
(Fine, fine, that's Jonathan Swift's pseudonym. You know, there was this guy who wrote almanacs during the time he was alive, and challenged people to make predictions as good as his [the guy's]. Well, Jonathan said that [on a certain date, at a certain hour] the guy would die of fever; later, he published his "triumphant results". The other guy loudly argued back that he was still alive, but no one believed him, because his name was already on the Death Register. He got over it, after a while: at least he didn't have to pay his taxes. :D)Quote:
We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another. - Isaac Bickerstaff
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Anyone inexperienced puts faith in every word, but the shrewd one considers his steps. Proverbs 14:15
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There is no god greater than truth. -Mahatma Gandhi
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I am an atheist, thank God. (Also known as Thank God I'm an atheist. Cool oxymoron, very applicable.) - Luois Bunuel, French film-maker
"While we were yet sinners"? Great God! Then what d'you suppose we are now!!!Quote:
For God showed us His own love in this: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
I find that really, and I mean REALLY, scary.Quote:
Jesus said:
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother...
-- Matthew 10:34-35 (AV)
*Chuckles to herself at this one*Quote:
The Fig Tree Enigma
The next day..., Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." ... In the morning..., they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. Peter ... said to Jesus, "Rabbi, look! The fig tree ... has withered!"
-- Mark 11:12-14, 20-21 (NIV)
Points to remember
Jesus was hungry.
He looked for figs on a tree.
But it was not fig season.
Questions to ponder
If it wasn't fig season, why would even a moron look for figs?
Is killing a tree for not bearing fruit out of season a reasonable response by any standard?
Matthew 21:18-21 (written after and based upon Mark) says it withered at once. Mark says they saw it the next day and then marveled. Something's terribly wrong, here. Was Matthew possibly dissatisfied with a Jesus who'd take an entire day to wither a damned fig tree?
-- commentary by Cliff Walker
Well, there's a myriad more, but I think I've bored you (and amused myself) quite enough for the present moment. ;)
We could be arguing forever about this....:D
But it's fun. I'll get the Devil to install a Windows XP on his computer when I'm in Hell, then if you can manage to persuade God to do the same thing in Heaven, we can continue arguing into infinity. :D
Very respectfully,
Miss Darcy
(Feeling rather cheeky at this very moment; please forgive me. But do answer my question about if God is almighty. I'm very curious as to your answer.)
Then why they were some monks/preacher/priest/other religious leaders/ who spend most of their lives at ceminary/temple/other religious places, become child molesters? I read often about this; A priest sodomized a little boy, A teacher in Islamic bording school molested his studentQuote:
Posted by Darcy: surely must agree that man is only a product of his environment, and it is this environment which determines whether he is "good" or "evil", honest or dishonest.
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Posted by Darcy: Secondly, I wouldn't believe too inherently in all the doctrines, even if I was Christian. You can't believe them, I mean, on what grounds can you be sure it's really God-inspired, and not (forgive me), merely a joke a few guys put together ages ago to see who would be insane enough to believe in it. Exaggeration, but you get my drift. Think for yourself. Reason!
If you don't believe in the doctrines/teachings/the bible, then you wouldn't call yourself a Christian
Please do not (always) take those words written in "holy" texts literary. Further, there's a verse in Bible which said that God's time is not the same as man's. I'm not defending the Bible since I don't have any interest for that, but IMO never took these kind of scriptures literary.Quote:
Posted by Darcy: Why would God make the world in 7 (did you say 6?) days anyway. He couldn't, there's too much stuff for making it in seven days.