Help for scansion, please?

I'm having problems determining the meter of this stanza:

Those long uneven lines
Standing as patiently
As if they were stretched outside
The Oval or Villa Park,
The crowns of hats, the sun
On moustached archaic faces
Grinning as if it were all
An August Bank Holiday lark;

The first and the fourth lines are iambic trimeters; the second as well with a trochaic inversion. But what about the third? Is it a trimeter containing a iambic foot, and two anapaests? Does the fourth contain a iamb, a anapaest and a iamb? The fifth two anapaests and a iamb? the sixth a trochee, a iamb and an anapaest? the last a iamband two anapaests?

And if I haven't made any mistakes, can one still speak of a regular meter? Thanks a lot for those (hopefully!) of you who could help me; I'm puzzled.

philip larkin?

http://www.cummingsstudyguides.net/xmeter.html - I feel for you Bitterfly; can't tell you how much I detest this type of analysis. Not that it isn't valid...it is for sure...just so old. Whose making you do this? Here's a clue..........

in the third line there should be an anapest 'they were stretched'
in the fourth line you could get an acephalous 'the'
in the sixth line there should be an anapest 'on moustached'
the last line intrigues me.there could be an acephalous 'an' and an anapest '-liday lark'

i'm sorry if i got it all wrong!

Thank you very much!!

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Originally Posted by Epistemophile

philip larkin?

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Yup! Love him.

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Originally Posted by quasimodo1

http://www.cummingsstudyguides.net/xmeter.html - I feel for you Bitterfly; can't tell you how much I detest this type of analysis. Not that it isn't valid...it is for sure...just so old. Whose making you do this? Here's a clue..........

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Thanks Quasimodo. I actually have a worksheet with 24 types of feet!! :D
But I'm never sure when a foot contains two syllables or three and what basis you decide.
Why do you think it's old-fashioned? I'm really curious. I'm doing this for a class, and where I am it's considered one of the first steps for building up a commentary. And I sort of enjoy doing it (in a nerdy geeky way :p ).

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Originally Posted by Epistemophile

in the third line there should be an anapest 'they were stretched'
in the fourth line you could get an acephalous 'the'
in the sixth line there should be an anapest 'on moustached'
the last line intrigues me.there could be an acephalous 'an' and an anapest '-liday lark'

i'm sorry if i got it all wrong!

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I didn't know the term "acephalous", although I think I understand it. But why do yo think that the "the" stands - if I've understood well - alone?
I agree with your two anapaests. Why not say there are two of them in the third line as well?

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But why do yo think that the "the" stands - if I've understood well - alone?

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the poet couldn't possibly gramatically do away with the article. but at the same time he had to incorporate it into an iambic structure. hence, the acephalous.

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Why not say there are two of them in the third line as well?

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there's no way you can have two anapests in the third line. 'as if' is a trochee; 'they were stretched' an anapest; and, ''outside' is of course an iamb.

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Originally Posted by Epistemophile

there's no way you can have two anapests in the third line. 'as if' is a trochee; 'they were stretched' an anapest; and, ''outside' is of course an iamb.

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My mistake: I meant the last line!
But actually, to come to think of it, you could have two anapaests in the third line, if you used the archaic pronunciation of the past participle:
As if / they were stret/ ched outside
(and that archaism would be consistent with the general meaning of the poem)

By the way, you would put the stress on "as"?

You can accuse meof liking to split hairs: it's true!:D

splitting hairs is good, as long as they are up for splitting! anyway, you have the right guy!

yah, i thought about the possible usage of the archaic 'stretchėd'. note that to suggest the presence of an extra syllable an acute accent is generally used. of course, to scan it that way would require textual sanction: can you see the acute accent on 'e' in the text you are following?
'if' generally goes unstressed. at best the first foot could be a pyrrhic. but in that case we would have a run of four syllables without a stress and that would incredibly hasten the line, creating a disbalance of sorts, forcing great pressure into 'stret-'.

two anapests in the last line? how?

I'm going to try, I didn't read comments, so please correct my mistakes (I have a test on scansion coming up in a few weeks, so I would appreciate the help on this too :p)
******/*****/****/
Those long uneven lines
/************/
Standing as patiently
**************/********/
As if they were stretched outside
*****/*****/***/
The Oval or Villa Park,
******/******/******/
The crowns of hats, the sun
********/******/*****/
On moustached archaic faces
/***************/
Grinning as if it were all
****/****/****/****/
An August Bank Holiday lark;

Nope, there isn't an acute accent! maybe Larkin was just testing us, hmm :p

An Au/ gust Bank Ho/ liday lark.

I admit it isn't the only way of scanding it:

An Au/gust Bank/ Holi/day lark.
But it would make into a tetrameter. Iambic with a little trochee thrown in... which sort of upsets the rhythm. And I think the anapaestic rhythm really suits the ideas of the poem.

Ah JBI, you posted while I was writing my answer. I don't understand your symbols. :(

/ is stressed, the * are for spacing since spaces don't register. I didn't put it into feet since it really doesn't adhere to much, alternating between trochaic, accentual, and iambic. It reads out loud though like a 4 stressed accentual, as almost all English poetry does, with the caesuras not really refining a different rhythm

Alright, why not. Are you a believer in the "beat" system?

And do you think this could be described as a regular metre? Larkin is, I find, generally far more regular than this, in lots of his important poems (lots of iambic pentameters).

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Originally Posted by Bitterfly

Alright, why not. Are you a believer in the "beat" system?

And do you think this could be described as a regular metre? Larkin is, I find, generally far more regular than this, in lots of his important poems (lots of iambic pentameters).

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Is this the whole poem? If there was more, I could codify it more, but generally it seems like "free verse" if such a term can be used. Note, I didn't use \ for half-stressed, or lesser-stressed syllables, because I don't scan like that, but if I did, a pattern may have been more apparent.

As it is, this poem is not relying on its metre for structure, but rather on its images. The skeleton mimics speech more than verse.

The only really metrical line seems to be the last one, because he hits with more stresses, slowing the line down significantly.

One could even call this syllabic verse, as the lines all add up to 7 (except the last, showing why it stood out so much), maybe Iambic scansion roughly impossible, being that more than half the lines end stressed, and Trochaic catalectic scansion highly unlikely, given that most lines start unstressed.

I think syllabic, now that I read it over, must be the thing Larkin was trying for, though I don't know how successful it is.

edit, do you scan holiday as two or three syllables? My accent feels like it is three.

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An Au/ gust Bank Ho/ liday lark.

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'bank' will always be stressed. notice that 'gust bank ho' does not have the anapestic feel to it: it's kind of stuccato. for me it's:

An/August/ Bank Ho/liday lark

that way it conforms to the trimeter scheme. but then, i'm not sure.
tricky stuff from Mr. Larkin. have you read 'digging'?

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Originally Posted by Bitterfly

The first and the fourth lines are iambic trimeters; the second as well with a trochaic inversion. But what about the third? Is it a trimeter containing a iambic foot, and two anapaests? Does the fourth contain a iamb, a anapaest and a iamb? The fifth two anapaests and a iamb? the sixth a trochee, a iamb and an anapaest? the last a iamband two anapaests?

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No, they aren't. The poet does his best to make this poem as irregular as possible in terms of meter. (Note there is no rhyme, either.) I do not know who gave you this task. But in my opinion (as an English teacher) one should ask students to do scansion only for poems that ar fairly regular. The task at hand does not make any sense as there simply are no feet. They can only be made out in a regular meter.

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Originally Posted by JBI

Is this the whole poem? If there was more, I could codify it more, but generally it seems like "free verse" if such a term can be used. Note, I didn't use \ for half-stressed, or lesser-stressed syllables, because I don't scan like that, but if I did, a pattern may have been more apparent.

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Yes, I was wondering if it could be free verse. And no, it's not the whole poem, there are three other stanzas, with the same irregularities.

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As it is, this poem is not relying on its metre for structure, but rather on its images. The skeleton mimics speech more than verse.

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Absolutely! :thumbs_up

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I think syllabic, now that I read it over, must be the thing Larkin was trying for, though I don't know how successful it is.

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I like your idea! Unluckly, after having counted the syllables in the next stanza, it doesn't really work, even though most of the lines add up to seven. That said, I suppose it's normal to find syllabic regularity (since most feet contain two or three syllables).

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edit, do you scan holiday as two or three syllables? My accent feels like it is three.

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I'd say three - and impossible to make it two! :p

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Originally Posted by Epistemophile

'bank' will always be stressed. notice that 'gust bank ho' does not have the anapestic feel to it: it's kind of stuccato. for me it's:

An/August/ Bank Ho/liday lark

that way it conforms to the trimeter scheme. but then, i'm not sure.
tricky stuff from Mr. Larkin. have you read 'digging'?

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No, I haven't, but I certainly will if you mean it's good!
I think I just like that last line read without the stress of Bank better... probably because it bothers me to have an extra foot.

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Originally Posted by barbara0207

No, they aren't. The poet does his best to make this poem as irregular as possible in terms of meter. (Note there is no rhyme, either.) I do not know who gave you this task. But in my opinion (as an English teacher) one should ask students to do scansion only for poems that ar fairly regular. The task at hand does not make any sense as there simply are no feet. They can only be made out in a regular meter.

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Ah, you think there aren't any feet... Does that make it free verse, as JBI suggested?
In fact, it's not a precise assignment, just one of the things we do first for each class when studying a poem.

It is definitely free verse, bitterfly. You have found that by negation, i.e. by not finding any regular meter. :)

Ah, thanks! I was never quite sure what free verse exactly is! Sounds stupid, but I've studied many more poems with regular meter, so...

how free can a verse ever be?does this degree of 'freedom' decide poetry's descent into prose?

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Originally Posted by Epistemophile

how free can a verse ever be?does this degree of 'freedom' decide poetry's descent into prose?

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Not necessarily. It has still got the other essentials of poetry: original imagery, condension of thought; and, in form, almost all free verse poems are split into lines, which - if well done - should add to the meaning.

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Originally Posted by barbara0207

Not necessarily. It has still got the other essentials of poetry: original imagery, condension of thought; and, in form, almost all free verse poems are split into lines, which - if well done - should add to the meaning.

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Free verse isn't free, it just doesn't adhere to classical measurements. There is nothing free about Walt Whitman's verse, as everything is chosen for the feel, sound, and effect. The idea that free verse doesn't require metric skill to write is a myth. Free Verse, to be done well, requires as much, if not more skill to pull off.

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Originally Posted by JBI

Free verse isn't free, it just doesn't adhere to classical measurements. There is nothing free about Walt Whitman's verse, as everything is chosen for the feel, sound, and effect. The idea that free verse doesn't require metric skill to write is a myth. Free Verse, to be done well, requires as much, if not more skill to pull off.

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Agreed - apart from the expression 'metric skill'. The term 'metric' is too much tied to the classical measurements that I don't like its use for free verse. The poet needs a very good feeling of rhythm and sound to create a meaningful and beautiful unity of poetry. It certainly does not do to simply write a piece of prose and split it into lines. Anyone can do that.

Perhaps we can agree on the following: 'free' means 'free from classical measurement'. It can be harder for the poets. They do not have to obey traditional forms but they have to find a form of their own which fits the content perfectly. Being free always means more responsibility ...

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Originally Posted by barbara0207

Agreed - apart from the expression 'metric skill'. The term 'metric' is too much tied to the classical measurements that I don't like its use for free verse. The poet needs a very good feeling of rhythm and sound to create a meaningful and beautiful unity of poetry. It certainly does not do to simply write a piece of prose and split it into lines. Anyone can do that.

Perhaps we can agree on the following: 'free' means 'free from classical measurement'. It can be harder for the poets. They do not have to obey traditional forms but they have to find a form of their own which fits the content perfectly. Being free always means more responsibility ...

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That being said, scansion isn't impossible for free verse, as I think I somewhat showed when I scanned this poem. You can find some interesting things scanning almost any good poet, regardless of form.

That being said though, that hideous trend they call concrete poetry doesn't scan at all.

Just to continue the conversation on free verse scansion: take this example from Eliot's The Wasteland:
U***/*****/
The river sweats
/**u***/
Oil and tar
*U***/*u***/
The barges drift
u****u**/**u**/
With the turning tide
*/***/
Red sails
*/
Wide
*u**/**u***/****u*u**/**u**/
To leeward, swing on the heavy spar.
*u**/**u***/
The barges wash
*/**u**/
Drifting logs
/******u***/***/ (note, not to sure how to stress Greenwich)
Down Greenwich reach
/****u**/**u**/
Past the Isle of Dogs.
(note this line can be scanned many ways, as Wagner's pronunciation is probably different than Eliot's intended one)
/**uuu*/*u
Weialala leia
/**uu**/uuu
Wallala leialala


u/*u*/***u***/***u
Elizabeth and Leicester
*/***u**/
Beating oars
*u***/***u***/
The stern was formed
u**/**u**/
A gilded shell
/****u**/
Red and gold
u***/****/
The brisk swell
/***u**/*****/
Rippled both shores
**/****/***/ *
Southwest wind
*/**u***/****/
Carried down stream
*u***/**u**/
The peal of bells
**/***/**u
White towers
/**uuu*/*u
Weialala leia
/**uu**/uuu
Wallala leialala

/ means stress, u means unstressed, and *are to be ignored.
(I hope I didn't butcher it too hard, I'm a little tired, and I did this rather quickly)

But I think we can discern from this quick scansion (there must be some mistakes in there, I can't quite see them now, but I know some parts didn't feel right). That there is an iambic pulse running through the piece. Even free verse such as this seems rooted and structured. The sound created though, is better understood once you read it with the stresses in mind, and sort of piece where the reader stops, or slows down pace (around the multiple-stressed units, and punctuation) to understand the feel of the poem. Free verse, therefore, as I hope to have shown, doesn't really break free of anything. And as a poet such as Eliot's talent is concerned, is rather more highly thought, I would think, than metrically restricted poetry. Just think of the requirement in playing with sound and form that isn't allowable in closed-forms. The structure, therefore, must be precise and solid if the poem is to work.