BBC North and South

I've just finished reading North and South and watched the first two episodes of the BBC film/mini series.
I'm kinda disappointed about the way they've made some changes to the plot and left out some things, e.g.

- Margaret's visits with Bessy Higgins

- Mr Thornton beating up his worker (which is not in the book, I think). On the one hand this seems very realistic and probably typical of the cruel treatment of workers at that time, but on the other hand self-control is one of the main themes of the book and Mr Thornton (just like Margaret) obsesses about self-control a lot. So how does that go together with his racing around the mill and beating the pulp out of the poor man?
Do you think that's consistent? or maybe workmen don't really count as human beings, so it's o.k. for Thornton to give up his self-control opposite a worker?
- Mr Thornton already (falsely) suspects that Margaret has other lovers in the the first proposal scene.


what I did like was the portrayal of Milton, because in the film the harsh conditions that the workers live in are so much more vivid than in the book. Plus, I like the fact that ppl of all classes have a Manchester accent. In the book it's only the workers who have an accent and this makes them sound quaint and cute so that you don't really take them seriously as human beings, whereas the "masters" speak like Margaret.

so is it worth watching the rest of the film? or does it dramatize the romance and neglect the other aspects of the book?

what did you like/ dislike about the film?

I absolutely adored the film. Especially the chosen actors. I must say that Richard Armiatge portrayed Mr Thornton admirably. And Daniela Denby-Ashe was well chosen as well.

Actually I couldn't critisize this particular BBC production if I tried.

And as I recall Margaret did visit Bessy Higgins, didn't she ?

And I loved the first proposal scene for its vigor and passion. You can see Thornton's every thoguht in his face. He seems so desparate. And then Margarte so strong and steadfast. I just loved it.

My favourite scenes are the tea scene, the proposal, Thornton and his mother and of course the ending scenes.

Yes I thought this was an outstanding production too, must have seen it 3 or 4 times.

I've watched it about 4 or five times in the last 12 months. Loved it! I wasnt happy with the beating up of the worker bit, but i loved the rest. there are a lot of scenes with her visiting Bessie. I loved how they added all the union meetings in and gave boucher more strength as a character.

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Originally Posted by Niamh

I've watched it about 4 or five times in the last 12 months. Loved it! I wasnt happy with the beating up of the worker bit, but i loved the rest. there are a lot of scenes with her visiting Bessie. I loved how they added all the union meetings in and gave boucher more strength as a character.

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They included that in order to give Margaret more reason for disliking Thornton. All in all I think it's an excellent production and is up there with the BBC version of P&P. I'm glad it's not just me that has watched it over again.

I like it better than pride and prejudice to be honest.

I've seen a good number of comments on the beating scene, but not one of them mentions Thornton's explanation. Stevens had been warned about smoking on the job and there were strict rules against it. One of the great dangers in a cotton mill was fire, and Thornton had seen a mill go up in flames - completely destroyed in 20 minutes - and had seen 300 corpses laid out on a hillside from an accidental flame. Does anyone wonder that he was angry? Just one spark, and he would be another corpse - along with all the workers in his mill. At his explanation, Margaret had nothing to reply. Though the beating cannot be condoned, it can at least be understood.

mostly I like it except the final scene the way theyve changed it has made henry out to be a sore loser and a not very nice person and comeone a train station, seriously? That did annoy me.

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Originally Posted by Henry IX

I've seen a good number of comments on the beating scene, but not one of them mentions Thornton's explanation. Stevens had been warned about smoking on the job and there were strict rules against it. One of the great dangers in a cotton mill was fire, and Thornton had seen a mill go up in flames - completely destroyed in 20 minutes - and had seen 300 corpses laid out on a hillside from an accidental flame. Does anyone wonder that he was angry? Just one spark, and he would be another corpse - along with all the workers in his mill. At his explanation, Margaret had nothing to reply. Though the beating cannot be condoned, it can at least be understood.

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Yes, but the point is that this scene did not occur in the novel.

No, I wasn't a fan of the beating either. Generally when I see something in an adaptation that is not from the original story at all, I tend to get turned off by it. But I have to say that it really didn't change my feelings on the series at all. I loved it.

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Originally Posted by Nightshade

mostly I like it except the final scene the way theyve changed it has made henry out to be a sore loser and a not very nice person and comeone a train station, seriously? That did annoy me.

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Well, I personally think Anne running around like a maniac at the end of "Persuasion" was a lot worse. I just thought it was absurd.

Never seen the persusaion version but it cant be worse than that awful version of Mansfield park, with the black hared Fanny, not Minnie Driver but I always think thats who the actress was.

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Originally Posted by Nightshade

mostly I like it except the final scene the way theyve changed it has made henry out to be a sore loser and a not very nice person and comeone a train station, seriously? That did annoy me.

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2004 BBC version, director Brian Percival, screen writer Sandy Welch

Perhaps annoy is too strong, disappoint, would be my take on the train station ending. I'm not critical that the adaptation deviates from the novel. The mediums of word and image are different and as long as the director/screen-writer preserves the idea of the theme and is true to the author's emotional intent, the video adaptation should be judged on it's own merits.
It seems to me that Gaskell in North &South, as the two words suggest, had two themes: social critique of the industrial revolution and the developing love between Margaret and Thornton. They ran in parallel and the mix created a complex emotional environment for the reader, as well as for the video viewer. How successful was Gaskell is not the issue, what is, is the translation into the film. Percival/Welsh succeed admirably on the social critique and not so well on the developing emotional level of the two principals. Some of the scene cuts were too abrupt, jerky, not permitting an examination of the complexity of the emotional interchange of the two very strong personalities. And surprisingly the stronger fault lies with the character of Margaret as interpreted by Daniela Denby-Ashe. While the control of emotions, reflecting the Northern clime, in Richard Armitage's Mr. Thornton is plausible, Margaret's minimal facial range is a disappointment. One would have supposed that Sandy Welch would have done a better job with the script and that does not let Brian Percival off the hook. His framing of the shots and especially the use of lighting is very good, but as a director he has to share the blame for the limited emotional response displayed by Ms. Ashe.
Returning to the critique of the train station scene. Let me illustrate:

N&S,Ch. 52-
“ 'Margaret!'
For an instant she looked up; and then sought to veil her
luminous eyes by dropping her forehead on her hands. Again,
stepping nearer, he besought her with another tremulous eager
call upon her name.
'Margaret!'
Still lower went the head; more closely hidden was the face,
almost resting on the table before her. He came close to her. He
knelt by her side, to bring his face to a level with her ear; and
whispered-panted out the words:--
'Take care.--If you do not speak--I shall claim you as my own in
some strange presumptuous way.--Send me away at once, if I must
go;--Margaret!--'
At that third call she turned her face, still covered with her
small white hands, towards him, and laid it on his shoulder,
hiding it even there; and it was too delicious to feel her soft
cheek against his, for him to wish to see either deep blushes or
loving eyes. He clasped her close. But they both kept silence. At
length she murmured in a broken voice:
'Oh, Mr. Thornton, I am not good enough!'
'Not good enough! Don't mock my own deep feeling of
unworthiness.'
After a minute or two, he gently disengaged her hands from her
face, and laid her arms as they had once before been placed to
protect him from the rioters.”

In my opinion Gaskell's scene is richer in emotional content than Percival's, of Margaret clasping Thornton's hands and kissing them. (An aside – reminiscent of Elizabeth's acceptance of Darcy in Joe Wright's P&P) Here the image is insufficient as compared the book's - Thornton “ he gently disengaged her hands from her face”, where “ she turned her face, still covered with her small white hands, towards him”. Here the image is of Thornton opening Margaret's hands, of symbolically Margaret opening her body and her soul to Thornton.

Well I first watched the movie and loved it so much I decided to read the book and found it online here, thank you!

I have to say I found some pros and cons in both movie and book...

I agree with the posts here saying that the beating just didn't seem quite right and definitely not in keeping with Mr. Thorntons character of self control etc... I think it could have been left out easily enough, just a bit of over drama to have her meeting him that way. I liked the book meeting better where she is tired and not caring much to know him and he seems captivated by her already though annoyed to see how high she carries herself.

Then the trip to London seemed a bit uneccesary but I enjoyed seeing the finery of the exhibit and the dialect between Mr. Thornton and Miss Hale...

Then I thought the movie portrayed Mr. Higgins as being a bit more gentile than in the book, and was probably appropriate to our more modern sensibilities? I liked the addition of his kindness to her in the movie by picking up her bag from the other mocker and it did help with a connection there.

Then with the ending.... mixed feelings....

When I saw the movie, I thought the emotion of the scene so beautiful and full that I was forgiving of the setting, though still thinking to myself, in a train station kissing?!

I also thought it unkind to make the poor Mr. Lennox a witness and see his hopes dashed again like that, it took away from the moment and I wished they had found a better way to put it in.

So when reading the book ending, I was a bit surprised how abrupt it was.... I longed for more explaination and illimunation...
but I did appreciate the comments on the aunt and Mother! haha :)

All in all, both a good read and great movie!

I have to say I loved the movie. The actors were great. Nice ending scene. I have yet to read the book so I must look into that.

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Originally Posted by LadyWentworth

Well, I personally think Anne running around like a maniac at the end of "Persuasion" was a lot worse. I just thought it was absurd.

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I agree, it kind of spoiled the whole film. It was just completely random; I think the producers must have had to rush the ending for one reason or another.

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Originally Posted by Veho

I agree, it kind of spoiled the whole film. It was just completely random; I think the producers must have had to rush the ending for one reason or another.

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That would be a little bit puzzling, because, had they done it like 1997 (?) with Hinds, then everything would have gone much faster instead of still having seconds and seconds of her running through the city. Just post Wentworth downstairs and off we go. :lol:

But (bad) film-makers have never been the most logical beings on this planet.

I just watched North and South and I must say, it was quite good. However, the beginning proposal scene with Henry seemed rather awkward; the short, abrupt shots made everything seem strange and cut off. After that though the movie flowed along quite nicely, and I just love the way the Mr. Thornton and his mother interacted. Mrs. Thornton was exactly how I pictured her in the book. Another pet peeve that I have(and seems to bug more people than me) is the train station scene. When I saw it I was like "What? In a train station?! What about Henry?" Perhaps it was because the ending seemed so "modern" that I did not like it much. I do see the significance of that scene being in a train station though; there are some recurring shots of Margaret in a train, traveling, and of course there was a train station scene with Frederick. I think the movie wanted to make trains an important part of the Margaret character, but I am not quite sure what that would be. A sense of placelessness, maybe?

I have to agree that Persuasions scene was pretty bad, but not quite as bad as that last kissing scene. *shudders at the thought*
Yeah, that was bad.

I need to say straight up, that I have never read the book, and so this review will be based souly on the miniseries and my thoughts on it.

I have to admit, when I first watched it, the characters and setting took me awhile to get used to, but after the second episode, I was completely sold and watched the last half with bated breath. My heart is utterly and unconditionally lost to Richard Armatige's portrayal of the emotionally restrained and yet hopelessly passionate John Thornton. While I was less eager to embrace Daniela Denby-Ashe as the heroine Margaret Hale, she gradually grew on me, and I ended up thoroughly enjoying her performance. The chemistry and tension between these two characters is palpable, and I think reminiscent of Darcy and Elizabeth's in Pride and Prejudice.

I have no complaints what-so-ever about any of the supporting cast, and was particularly impressed with Lesley Manville, Brendan Coyle, Sinéad Cusack and Tim Pigott-Smith.

Not only are the themes of social and gender equality explored, but so is the relationship of master and worker (between Thornton and Higgins), and parent and child (Margaret and her father, John and his mother Hannah, and Nicholas and Bessy), in such a way as to give the story an emotional and historical depth both believable and endearing.

Now to address the two most heated arguments raised in this particular forum: firstly, that of Thornton and Margaret's first meeting, when she witnesses him 'beating' up one of his employees. As Henry IX points out, Stevens had already been warned about smoking while in the mills; not only does it endanger his health further, but is an extremely dangerous fire hazard...thousands of people could have died. Not that that explanation in any way justifies what Thornton did.

The second issue deals with the last scene. I in no way found it offensive or unnecessary...I thought it was the perfect ending. It was like the world seemed to melt away, and they were by themselves in their own little universe where it was just the two of them.

Sandy Welch was the one who orchastrated the emphasis on the train-station and railway, and the reason she did this was in order to visually draw attention to the industrial landscape of the story.

Lastly, I just want to mention what my favorite scenes were:

1: The last scene
2: The last conversation between Nicholas and John
3: All of Bessie and Margaret's conversations
4: The Thornton's dinner party
5: The Great Exhibition
6: When Margaret finds out about John losing Marlborough Mills

Daniela Denby-Ashe was a pleasant surprise. I knew her from "My Family", but I didn't recognize her at first. It's one of my favorite miniseries.