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Yay!! Winter's Tale won. Now I'll have to dig out my Shakespeare. :D
HEY!!!!! I missed the vote!!!!
Gee, I wish someone gave me a KitKat everytime you say that, Papaya! ;)
:lol: me too! That reminds me, I think I need something sweet to eat right now.
I will have to dig out my audio CD's and start listening tonight; refresh my memory. Wow, this should be fun!
I've never read that one. I'll try to join in, though my eyes aren't well still, but I'll try to read as much as I can.
Er, if I recall "Shakespeare the Invention of the Human" Bloom tries to drift away from the Romance title, and place them as tragicomedies.
Ah yes, you are right, he seems to try to reject the title, but eventually ends up agreeing with it. I was mixing his book up with the much thinner volume of Shakespeare criticism by Northrop Frye, entitled Northrop Frye on Shakespeare, though Frye eventually accepts the category of romance as the inevitable label (a rather interesting read when compared to Bloom's, though Bloom claims him as one of his major influences, their views on Shakespeare are almost completely different). Pastoral Lyric seems about true for 1/3-1/2 of the play, while the others I would term high drama. Surely the High Mimetic mode of the first half goes against the pastoral nature of the second half that this play makes this play extremely difficult to place, relative to the other works. It would be fair to say that both Bloom and Frye are correct, as are other critics, though such genre labels are rather futile since this is one of Shakespeare's more experimental, and unique plays, and offers a vaster range than most of his other plays, because of the time lapse in the middle.
Oh, it finished at last.
*cracks knuckles* better get cracking then....:D
Again?! :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by papayahed
Antiquarian and JBI, I have always been confused about the categories and how scholars go about labeling Shakespeare's plays - they all seem to differ in their opinions on the subject. I think there are fine lines here between all types of plays -comedical/tragedical/pastoral/historical - that is just my own personal thought and always has been. Everyone of Shakespeare's so called Comedies contain elements of each in my opinion. When the tragerians come to entertain Hamlet, Polonius rattles off this line referring to the newly arrived players and what they have to offer:Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
I thought this interesting, (helps to be watching and reading Hamlet presently, ;) Anti will get what I mean here) because of all the categories, or mixed categories spoken in this excerpt and these are actually Shakespeare's own words; therefore, I wondered if they reflect how he felt about his plays and the idea of placing them into specific categories. Reading this, it seems to me as though he realises and is trying to convey, that they all overlap in category, within each play. As Polonius reads this off, it is a rather humorous part of the play - quite comical. In this moment with Polonius, was Shakespeare poking some fun at categorising his body of work?Quote:
The best actors in the world, either for tragedy, comedy, history, pastoral, pastoral-comical, historical-pastoral, tragical-historical, tragical-comedical-historical-pastoral, scene individable, or poem unlimited: Seneca cannot be too heavy nor Plautus too light. For the law of writ and the liberty, these are all the only men.
I am not sure what is meant exactly, by that last line. I have only a vague idea; the beginning of it seems to sum things up and the part -'the only men' he is referring to the players.
Antiquarian, you wrote this before, the above passage I quoted from you:
I don't know - why must you do so? I have heard so much debate on this subject, online and in books; I don't think one has to actually decide, one way or the other; nor bow to one scholar's opinion. Just because one is a scholar does not mean they are 100% correct. I think the choice should be individual anyway. I know I read "Pericles" and I would never call that pastoral, pastoral-lyric, or late romance....I felt it had some very tragic elements or at least very sad throughout most of that play. In fact, in my own book, it is listed under the tragedies.Quote:
I would call the play a tragicomedy, but I have to bow to Bloom's superior expertise.
In the end, I think it is probably insignificant as to just what category it is placed into. I may have started this discussion by mentioning, some serious or tragic areas of this particular play. When I first listened to this play, on audiofile, a year or so ago, I felt it had a very sad tone to it. I was then wondering why in-the-world, it was called a 'comedy' in my own book. I admit my book is an older version without any true commentary added.Quote:
There's been some debate already over whether this is a comedy or a tragedy. I think both Janine and I agree that it's more of a tragicomedy.
I have a book by Harold Bloom that lists it as a "late romance."
When I read all the histories, a few years ago, I finally concluded that some of those actually were also tragedies, so I guess then, they could be as Polonius was reading off his paper from the players, as 'tragical-historical'. Now for my own satisfaction, I think I will call this play "The Winter's Tale" -'tragical-comedical-pastoral' :lol: That seems to sum it all up!
YAY! I think I'm going to have to dig through my Shakespeare pile for the play....that might take a while...
[QUOTE=Janine;585734]Antiquarian and JBI, I have always been confused about the categories and how scholars go about labeling Shakespeare's plays.....these are actually Shakespeare's own words; therefore, I wondered if they reflect how he felt about his plays and the idea of placing them into specific categories. Reading this, it seems to me as though he realises and is trying to convey, that they all overlap in category, within each play. ...In this moment with Polonius, was Shakespeare poking some fun at categorising his body of work? ....In the end, I think it is probably insignificant as to just what category it is placed into....QUOTE]
How about we just get on and read the play? We can perhaps come to some conclusion after having read it, rather than before.
To start the ball rolling:
Act I Sc i: Sets the scene - Polixenes, King of Bohemia, has been on an extended visit to his life-long friend, Leontes, King of Sicilia. The friendship between the two monarchs extends to members of their courts as Archidamus of Bohemia extends a warm invitation to Camillo, Leontes' trusted councillor. Though it sounds like one of those courteous and diplomatic invitations that are issued without much thought of it ever being taken up (and we've all issued those from time to time, I'm sure!), it enables Camillo to make a hasty flight in the next scene.
Act I sc ii: Polixenes proposes to return home and at first refuses to be persuded by Leontes to stay a little longer. Leontes calls on his wife, Hermione, to add her voice to his persuasions but when she is successful in changing Polixenes' mind, becomes suspicious of the warm relationship between his wife and his friend. He questions Camillo as to the general opinion of the relationship but is not convinced by Camillo's surprised denial of any obvious infidelity. Leontes convinces Camillo of Polixenes' guilt and Camillo ofers to take advantage of being cup-bearer to the visitor and poison him. Leontes accepts the offer but when he has gone, Camillo reveals the plan to an astounded Polixenes; together they plan to flee the Sicilian court.
What do you make of Leontes' jealousy? And what do you make of Camillo's behaviour?
Act I-i seems to me as an introduction to both Bohemia and Sicilia.Quote:
Originally Posted by kasie
In the introduction to the play in The Riverside Shakespeare it is said,
But the interesting is that Shakespeare reverses the characters as it is statedQuote:
"The first three acts of The Winter's Tale are a dramatization of the corresonding portion of Robert Greene's novel Pandosto, ... This romantic proclaims as its purpose the displaying of the evils of jeoulsy."
What do you think of this switching of characters?Quote:
Greene's jealous king, Pandosto of Bohemia, is changed into leontes of Sicilia, ... and Shakespeare's reason for switching the countries is a matter of some critical interest.
Another source I found in Wikipedia
One modern historian, Eric Ives, believes that the play is really a parody of the fall of Queen Anne Boleyn, who was beheaded on false charges of adultery on the orders of her husband Henry VIII in 1536. There are numerous parallels between the two stories - including the fact that one of Henry's closest friends, Sir Henry Norreys, was beheaded as one of Anne's supposed lovers and he refused to confess in order to save his life – claiming that everyone knew the Queen was innocent. If this theory is followed then Perdita becomes a dramatic presentation of Anne's only daughter, Queen Elizabeth I.
An idea, Can we post different pictures of The Winter's Tale'sperformances in another Thread, It can be good for stage direction and discussion of the characters. What is your idea?
sophia, I find all of this source material you have dug up online interesting. I am usually big on using other sources of research to add to my own understanding of the play or story. I did not requote you here (others can read your post above); but, I think that is about accurate. I did read online, something similar, as to the 'introduction' and the purpose of the opening/introduction of the play. If I can find what I read again I will post it to add to your ideas.Quote:
Originally Posted by sofia82
That part is interesting. I don't think it that unusual that Shakespeare or any author of the day has drawn from other stories, legends, histories, characters in order to create his own play with these elements. There is always conjecture on all of Shakespeare's plays as to the origins of the ideas that took form in the genius playwrite's mind.Quote:
But the interesting is that Shakespeare reverses the characters as it is stated
I think often authors will do this. I have seen it before in stories that were suggested by other stories of an earlier origin. I think the switching of the characters may be significant, in a political sense, but I don't know enough about the politics in Shakespeare's time, to determine why he would switch them. I do think it is clever of Shakespeare.Quote:
What do you think of this switching of characters?
I don't know if he is stretching his theory here but it certainly is a fascinating one. I never thought of the connecting when I first experienced the play (listened to it on audiofile). The wife is indeed falsely accused. There are definite parallels and all this would have occurred during or after Shakespeare's life. Elizabeth I sat on the throne of england during the time of Shakespeare. She often attended his performances. Perdita may represent Elizabeth in a sense, so maybe Shakespeare is trying to make a statement in this play. I happened to just see the HBO miniseries film last night "Elizabeth I" and I have to tell you, there were many supposed lovers who got the axe in those days. If you shone in the light of the Queen's favors all was rosy, but cross her and that could easily be your downfall. One tread a very thin line with serving all monarchs of that time.Quote:
Another source I found in Wikipedia
Quote:
One modern historian, Eric Ives, believes that the play is really a parody of the fall of Queen Anne Boleyn, who was beheaded on false charges of adultery on the orders of her husband Henry VIII in 1536. There are numerous parallels between the two stories - including the fact that one of Henry's closest friends, Sir Henry Norreys, was beheaded as one of Anne's supposed lovers and he refused to confess in order to save his life – claiming that everyone knew the Queen was innocent. If this theory is followed then Perdita becomes a dramatic presentation of Anne's only daughter, Queen Elizabeth I.
Here is some additional information that I found online in Sparknotes:
SparkNotes –The Winter’s Tale
I left a small bit of text out of the end of this because I thought it might be a spoiler to those who have not yet read the play.Quote:
The Winter's Tale is one of Shakespeare's final plays. Composed and performed around 1610-11, it joins Pericles, Cymbeline, and The Tempest in the list of genre-defying later plays that are usually referred to as romances, or tragicomedies. Each of these productions has a happy ending that sets them apart from earlier histories and tragedies, but each emphasizes the danger and power of evil in the world, and death, while never finally victorious, is an ever-present force in the stories......
Here is the link to the Sparknotes commentary online:Quote:
There is no one source for The Winter's Tale, although Shakespeare relies heavily on the works of Richard Greene, a London writer in the 1580s and '90s. (Greene may have been the author of a 1592 pamphlet attacking Shakespeare, which makes the Bard's borrowings from the deceased writer particularly appropriate.) From Pandosto, Greene's 1588 prose romance, Shakespeare borrowed most of the characters and events of the first three acts; and the character and habits of Autolycus seem to be drawn from Greene's pamphlet accounts of criminals in Elizabethan London. The story of the abandoned royal baby, meanwhile, owes much to popular folklore of the time, and the seasonal themes touched on in Act IV echo Ovid's
Metamorphoses--Perdita is associated with Proserpina, whose emergence from the Underworld in Greek myth was supposed to herald the return of spring. Finally, the resurrection of Hermione in Act V owes an obvious debt to the Pygmalion story, in which a sculptor's work comes to life through divine intervention.
In terms of strength of character, unity of plot, and audience satisfaction, The Winter's Tale may be the best of the later romances, and it has been a favorite of directors and audiences down to the present day.
http://www.sparknotes.com/shakespeare/winterstale/
I would think making up a new thread would be your best bet. I think it would be great to make one up of all of Shakespeares performances on stage or screen in one separate thread, like a general 'Shakespeare Performance' thread perhaps. That would be truly entertaining and enlightening. Do you want to start that thread, sophia? I love stage and screen performances of Shakespeare particularly, so count me in. I know I can come up with some great photos; I copy them all the time for my own files. We could collaborate on getting it launched, if you want or if you need any help I would be glad to help out; just email me on here, if interested.Quote:
An idea, Can we post different pictures of The Winter's Tale'sperformances in another Thread, It can be good for stage direction and discussion of the characters. What is your idea?
I have several ideas for visual threads, myself; I may be acting on those by the weekend.
kasie, yes I agree - we do need to get on with the story. It really makes no difference to understanding the story to categorize it precisely. We were just discussing this idea before the discussion got rolling and while everyone was still reading the text. I know I have to review it myself.Quote:
How about we just get on and read the play? We can perhaps come to some conclusion after having read it, rather than before.
These are your words or quoted from commentary? I would agree that some of it might be political in origin. I think that kind of diplomatic invitations would have existed in the court at that time; they still exist today between diplomates of various countries. It does however seem that Polixenes and Leontes were life-long friends so it was not just diplomatics between them. I will have to review that part of the text. My intention was to listen again to the audiofile last night but it got to late to do so. I will do so tonight; at least Act I.Quote:
To start the ball rolling:
Act I Sc i: Sets the scene - Polixenes, King of Bohemia, has been on an extended visit to his life-long friend, Leontes, King of Sicilia. The friendship between the two monarchs extends to members of their courts as Archidamus of Bohemia extends a warm invitation to Camillo, Leontes' trusted councillor. Though it sounds like one of those courteous and diplomatic invitations that are issued without much thought of it ever being taken up (and we've all issued those from time to time, I'm sure!), it enables Camillo to make a hasty flight in the next scene.
Quote:
Act I sc ii: Polixenes proposes to return home and at first refuses to be persuded by Leontes to stay a little longer. Leontes calls on his wife, Hermione, to add her voice to his persuasions but when she is successful in changing Polixenes' mind, becomes suspicious of the warm relationship between his wife and his friend. He questions Camillo as to the general opinion of the relationship but is not convinced by Camillo's surprised denial of any obvious infidelity. Leontes convinces Camillo of Polixenes' guilt and Camillo ofers to take advantage of being cup-bearer to the visitor and poison him. Leontes accepts the offer but when he has gone, Camillo reveals the plan to an astounded Polixenes; together they plan to flee the Sicilian court.
I thought Leonetes' jealousy was very rash and unproven and cruel. He did not try the man in question, his supposed friend but went ahead with plans to poison him immediately. I don't know how much more rash one could be. In his rashness he wounds many lives. I think Camillo's behavior was commendable, even though he did oppose his monarch, and the monarch's were suppose to be appointed, or anointed by God. I still think he had a fairness of heart and took the risk to warn Polixenes. I think when Camillo seems to be convinced of the guilt of the two as lovers, in his reply to Leonetes, he is actually playing along with him and all the time knows he will intercept, whatever Leonetes wishes him to do towards the other king. I don't think for one, the killing of a king, from another realm was such a wise political move, in those days - it would only bring on war, and no doubt Camillo knew this and acted on the love of his country. He may also have seen the 'rashness' in Leonetes behavior and felt it would be temporary. To kill a king is a pretty huge offense.Quote:
What do you make of Leontes' jealousy? And what do you make of Camillo's behaviour?
Ahan, here is a justification of changing of the places, as the Proserpina legend was in Sicily and Shakespeare tries to relate Perdita to this mythical character (a relationship between the plot of the lost flower girl and the classical story of Proserpina), he changes Sicilia with Bohemia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
The relationship between Hermione and Queen Anne Boleyn is interesting. I didn't read this play before, so I don't have any idea where they are similar exactly and if Shakespeare refers to this or not, Let's find any direct resemblance between these two during reading. It is apparent that both are accused of infidelity while there were innocence about Perdita and Elizabeth I, I don’t have any idea unless I read about Perdita in the play.Quote:
I don't know if he is stretching his theory here but it certainly is a fascinating one. I never thought of the connecting when I first experienced the play (listened to it on audiofile). The wife is indeed falsely accused. There are definite parallels and all this would have occurred during or after Shakespeare's life. Elizabeth I sat on the throne of england during the time of Shakespeare. She often attended his performances. Perdita may represent Elizabeth in a sense, so maybe Shakespeare is trying to make a statement in this play. I happened to just see the HBO miniseries film last night "Elizabeth I" and I have to tell you, there were many supposed lovers who got the axe in those days. If you shone in the light of the Queen's favors all was rosy, but cross her and that could easily be your downfall. One tread a very thin line with serving all monarchs of that time.
I've got a problem, is it Robert or Richard Greene?!Quote:
There is no one source for The Winter's Tale, although Shakespeare relies heavily on the works of Richard Greene, a London writer in the 1580s and '90s.
Thank you, Janine. I try to start this thread today!Quote:
I would think making up a new thread would be your best bet. I think it would be great to make one up of all of Shakespeares performances on stage or screen in one separate thread, like a general 'Shakespeare Performance' thread perhaps. That would be truly entertaining and enlightening. Do you want to start that thread, sophia? I love stage and screen performances of Shakespeare particularly, so count me in. I know I can come up with some great photos; I copy them all the time for my own files. We could collaborate on getting it launched, if you want or if you need any help I would be glad to help out; just email me on here, if interested.
I'll be glad if I can participate in your visual threads and ideas!Quote:
I have several ideas for visual threads, myself; I may be acting on those by the weekend.
It seems to me as a kind of madness, without any investigation and questioning deciding on poisoning a King is not rational at all. About Camillo's accepting Leonetes plot and then revealing the plot to Polixenes, here is the justification of his act:Quote:
I thought Leonetes' jealousy was very rash and unproven and cruel. He did not try the man in question, his supposed friend but went ahead with plans to poison him immediately. I don't know how much more rash one could be. In his rashness he wounds many lives. I think Camillo's behavior was commendable, even though he did oppose his monarch, and the monarch's were suppose to be appointed, or anointed by God. I still think he had a fairness of heart and took the risk to warn Polixenes. I think when Camillo seems to be convinced of the guilt of the two as lovers, in his reply to Leonetes, he is actually playing along with him and all the time knows he will intercept, whatever Leonetes wishes him to do towards the other king. I don't think for one, the killing of a king, from another realm was such a wise political move, in those days - it would only bring on war, and no doubt Camillo knew this and acted on the love of his country. He may also have seen the 'rashness' in Leonetes behavior and felt it would be temporary. To kill a king is a pretty huge offense.
I must believe you, sir.
I do, and will fetch off Bohemia for't; (ActI-ii 333-4)
In the footnote, it is said
Fetch off : perhaps deliberately ambiguous: 1)kill; 2)bear off, resuce.
From The Oxford Companion to Shakespeare:
The Winter's Tale is primarily a dramatization of Robert *Greene's prose romance Pandosto (subtitled The Triumph of Time, and also known as 'The History of Dorastus and Fawnia'), which had first appeared in 1588 and had gone through five editions before Shakespeare composed The Winter's Tale. Shakespeare had probably known this work for some time: in any case he was not working from its most recent edition, printed in 1607, since this text alters the wording of the oracle's declaration, and the play here follows the earlier editions verbatim. Shakespeare changes the principals' names (Pandosto becomes Leontes, Bellaria becomes Hermione; Egistus becomes Polixenes; Dorastus and Fawnia become Florizel and Perdita), exchanges the places of *Bohemia and Sicilia (though even in Greene Bohemia is miraculously
provided with a coast), and drastically alters the story's tragic ending. The statue scene is entirely Shakespeare's invention (though it draws in part on the story of Pygmalion and Galatea, told in *Ovid's Metamorphoses): in Pandosto, Bellaria is genuinely and finally dead after the trial scene, and when years later Fawnia is brought to Pandosto's court he falls in love with her. After learning of her identity, he commits suicide. The play has no other major sources, though it derives incidental details from a number of texts (besides Plutarch and Boccaccio). Polixenes' defence of art (4.4.89-97) borrows from a similar passage in *Puttenham's Art of English Poesy (1589), while Shakespeare's knowledge of *Giulio Romano (5.2.96) probably derives, whether at first or second hand, from Giorgio Vasari's Vite de' piu eccellenti pittori, scultori, e architettori (1550). The scene of the mother's statue in Paulina's gallery may have been influenced, too, by *James I'S commissioning of painted memorial sculptures of his predecessor *Elizabeth 1 (completed in 1607) and of his mother Mary Stuart (completed before 1612), both in *Westminster Abbey.
I think so, before her convining of Polixenes to remain, he was there for nine months (Nine changes of the wat'ry star hath been (II-ii 1). And Leonete's obsessive questions about Mamillius being his son or not, resembling him or not! He even doubts the real identity of Mamillius as his own son. This remindes me of Othello!Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
And perceiving the amount of the speeches, Leonete's dialogue is not so long in comparison to Polixenes, it is Polixenes who is speaking and Leontes just answers in short dialogues which can represent some implicit anger and jealousy in Leonete. This is even before Herione's dialogues. Abd as they exit, Leonete starts his long dialogues full of rash, jealousy ....
I agree to, but it cannot be the time Hermione convinces Polinexes, too.Quote:
Personally, I don't think we can pin down the exact moment or cause of Leontes jealousy. I agree with Janine, though. I think Leontes jealousy was very rash and very cruel, and I applaud Camillo's actions.
I have to read harold Bloom's criticism.Quote:
It seems obvious to me that Leontes is suffering from some sort of paranoia, maybe sexual paranoia, and as Harold Bloom suggests, perhaps this is amplified by his close identification with Polixines.
Their closeness, going back to boyhood, is shown in the lines:
We were as twinn'd lambs that did frisk i' the sun
And bleat the one at the other: what chang'd
Was innocence for innocence: we knew not
The doctrine of ill-doing, nor dream'd
That any did. Had we pursu'd that life,
And our weak spirits ne'er been higher rear'd
With stronger blood, we should have answer'd heaven
Boldly 'not guilty', the imposition clear'd
Hereditary ours.
Bloom thinks the lines above suggest the Polixenes was not affected negatively in adulthood by the two men's closeness as boy, however, this closeness could be the root of Leontes jealousy, a jealousy that eventually drives him mad. I would agree with that.
Shakespeare, before revealing Leonete's evil plot and jealousy, refers to both of the kings as innocent, not guilty, through Camillo, Polinexes, and other characters, which we got surprised by Leonete's insane jealousy.
Janine - the summary of the action was in my own words: if I had borrowed it, I would have acknowledged the source!
The idea that Leontes and his jealousy is based on Henry VIII is an interesting one but the play was first performed some eight years after the death of Elizabeth and some seventy-five years after the death of Anne Boleyn, so I think that the theme would act more as a resonance than a direct comparison in the minds of a contemporary audience. Also, the mother of the reigning monarch was beheaded for treachery, so it could be suggested Shakespeare was on dangerously unstable ground in addressing such a topic - was he making a form of apologia to James or was he in danger of reviving old grievances, both in the King's mind and those of the audience?
However to get back to the text - I do wonder if the doubt has been festering in Leontes' mind for some time. Hermione is in the advanced stages of pregnancy (she gives birth very soon after Polixenes' departure, we learn of it in Act II, sc ii) and Polixenes' first words are
'Nine changes of the watery star....'
If Leontes does not make the connection, I feel sure the audience is supposed to!
I agree with the idea of paranoia - Leontes' words become more and more incoherent as the scene progresses, he can scarcely utter a completed thought. Only he draws the conclusions he does from the the words and actions of his wife and best friend - the protestations of the queen's innocence go on into the next act. His irrational fears move him to swift action - no public accusations, he judges and condemns in the space of a scene, Polixenes' death is arranged within a few lines. I think Camillo's swift agreement is in the nature of a placation: having soothed the madman, he equally swiftly turns aboutface to save both Polixenes and himself.
This scene could well have been developed into a drama in its own right (and maybe it was - Shakespeare went on to write, or perhaps collaborate in Henry VIII - All is True two years later, in which Katherine is shown in a very sympathetic light) but for the present play it is enough to establish in dramatic shorthand the basis for the rest of the play, a wronged wife, a mourning husband, a daughter lost and found. I think we are to take Leontes' madness as read, an theatre audience does not have time to ponder the rights and wrongs of it.
So what do you think was the reason why Hermione was successful - whereas Leontes was not - in convincing Polixenes to stay longer? Was it something she actually said? Was it her charms?
Ok its been a good while since I read any Shakespeare so it took a couple of readings to get my head around what they were saying, and I might as well admit it now I have an appualling habit of renaming Shakespeare's characters so that I can keep them straight, also spelling spelling spelling :rolleyes:
I also just wanted to add my first thought when I started reading was Bohemia? I'm in Bohemia! -this was a good choice :nod: :p
Can I just mention that Leon is not only an idiot but hypercritical and contradictory...he wants Poli to stay and then hes mad because he does stay the man was obviously insane.
I guess Id like to know what it was that suddenly set him off on the jealousy when seemingly seconds early there is no trace of it.
I'll be posting my thoughts shortly here. I wanted to read the play straight through first. I'm up to Act V. Then I'll reread the first act and comment.
I suppose it's because Hermione argues more convincingly than her husband. Leontes merely asks him stay, but doesn't addresses any of the reasons Polixenes has for leaving. Hermione, however, actively refutes Polixenes main excuse for leaving. The Bohemian king fears that enemies will overwhelm his state while he's away, but Hermione soothes that fear with news she's heard.Quote:
Originally Posted by bouquin
Another cause for Hermione's success is that she's a much stronger character--as are most of the women in this play--than her husband. She treats this conversation like a battle and chides her husband for being too passive: "You, sir, charge him too coldly." She then threatens him (albeit playfully) with imprisonment if he tries to leave. Hermione convinces because she's both more tactical and stronger than her husband in this situation.
Yeah, Elizabethan drama has a language all its own. Linguists try to tell us that we're both speaking Modern English, but c'mon. This doesn't seem like English to me:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightshade
Huh?Quote:
yet, good deed, Leontes,
I love thee not a jar o' th' clock behind
What lady she her lord. You'll stay?
I like shortening Leontes to Leon, though. He seems like a Leon to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightshade
I don't know as if there is anything that sets him off. It seems like the whole point is that there isn't anything. Leontes (Leon) even admits so himself:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightshade
Leon's imagination is to blame.Quote:
Affection! thy intention stabs the centre.
Thou dost make possible things not so held,
Communicat'st with dreams (how can this be?),
With what's unreal thou co-active art,
And fellow'st nothing. (I, ii, 138-142)
Actually I was wondering about that too, anyone care to explain/ decipher??Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
It's tricky. Shakespeare's love of idiomatic phrases and overwrought constructions sometimes runs away with him. In this case, Hermione is trying to say she loves her husband as much as any lady loves her lord. "Good deed" means something like truly, and a "jar" of the clock is the same as a "tick" of the clock. "o' th'" are just contractions, and the final phrase "what lady she her lord" is simply the part where Hermione equates her love to a typical lady's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightshade
Thanks Quark, that truly helped. I guess we know who we will be consulting now on Shakespeare lingo. I often listen to certain old phrases he uses over and over again without completely understanding them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
I have some comments to make on this first part of the text and why Leontes is so rash in his judgement of Hermione. I think this is somewhat common in Shakespeare's plays, to get advance the plot quickly; afterall, originally these plays were shown onstage and had to grab the attention of the audience within the first few minutes.
I think one can see pretty quickly how suspicious a person Leontes tends to be. He is definitely rash in his first impressions, but then as more is presented to him, he works himself up into a furry, which he builds up his extreme suspicious thoughts, until they become uncontrollable. He definitely 'over-reacts' and that is necessary for the plot, to take on momentum, from the beginning of the play. One is quickly drawn in by his irratic and rash behavior; this makes Leontes an fascinating character. The way he refers to Hermione and the other king teasing with each other, even the mention of 'paddlin' in their palms', 'kissing on the cheeks', reminds me greatly of Iago's own speech in "Othello" when he speaks to the audience and then later relays what he has falsely observed to Othello. As with Leontes, Othello only needs a spark of suspicion to set him, completely on the wrong course. Of course, he also has the help of Iago, who orchestrates the whole downfall of Othello and Desdemona; but Othello is not blameless as well.
Ok, in this play, Leontes is suspicious on his own accord, but he keeps asking if others have noticed, I believe. I need to listen more closely to my audiofile, while reading the exact text. I had hoped to post some text here, to show the parallels or at least, to point out the parts in this play, that seem to fed Leontes suspicions. On my very 'animated' audio recording of the play being performed, it does seem that Hermione is being very intimate in conversaton with the other king and they are both laughing, giggling, being wry and teasing, almost like flirting; some jealous husband could definitely interpret it that way. One can well imagine how King Leontes is becoming more and more wary of their position, and of his. Of course, we know how unfounded this all is. But from L's perspective, one can see how he is being left out of their conversation and in standing asside and speaking to the audience his inner thoughts, he only sees what he believes to be true in every word the two 'unsuspecting' friends are conveying to each other. It is more the subtext, that apparently is causing Leontes to question the faithfulness of his wife. All the little gestures and laughs are really adding to what he now believes is truth.
There are a few parts of the conversation that might set him off. First, Polixenes suggests that when women enter his and Leontes's lives they lost their innocence. That might make Leontes suspicious. Also, Hermione's tone is very animated when talking with Polixenes, but somewhat less spirited with Leontes. She also disagrees with him, and she even puts her love of both men on even ground. Hermione says,Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Leontes obviously feels left out of the conversation because he doesn't even follow it. He asks his wife "Is he won yet?" (83). Finally, the handclasp is the last straw. Earlier, Leontes had mentioned that he and his wife clasped hands when they were married, and now he sees his wife clasping hands with Polixenes.Quote:
I have spoke to th' purpose twice:
The one for ever earn'd a royal husband;
Th' other for some while a friend. (I,ii,108-10)
Of course, it should be mentioned that this is all rather flimsy evidence of infidelity.
That was one of the parts, I was thinking of but, mostly the way Hermione was so 'animated', when talking to Polixenes - she seemed to be thoroughly enjoying herself; for that matter so did he; and remember, Polixenes has a queen in his own land. Doesn't it seem odd he would leave her for so long? I think the time reference someone did mentioned, amounted to how much actual time, that he had been in this kingdom visiting? There were other passages and I will find them later and post them to show how Leontes builds and builds his suspicions. I wish I had the time now, but I don't; you know how that goes, Quark. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
True enough; I have to review that part. He did seem to step asside on his own accord. Interesting, Quark, that you point out the handclasp. Yes, that would relate to both of the times and somehow equate in Leonte's jealous mind (perhaps subconsiously) that this is rather significant that his wife has so easily convinced his friend to stay when even he could not imploy him to do so. The handclasps links the two events.Quote:
Leontes obviously feels left out of the conversation because he doesn't even follow it. He asks his wife "Is he won yet?" (83). Finally, the handclasp is the last straw. Earlier, Leontes had mentioned that he and his wife clasped hands when they were married, and now he sees his wife clasping hands with Polixenes.
Of course, but had he not acted rationally instead of rashly, there would be no basis for this play. This beginning reminds me of the Thomas Hardy novel "The Mayor of Casterbridge" in which the main character, Michael Henchard, in a irrational fit of drunkedness, auctions off his wife and baby at a fair. The rest of his life is trying to pay atonement for the stupid and impulsive act he did to begin with. I somehow see the same kind of quick rashness being portrayed in the first scene in this play as in the novel. From one very poor decision all fate then follows. In this case, the Oracle is summoned to decide where the truth lies.Quote:
Of course, it should be mentioned that this is all rather flimsy evidence of infidelity.
You guys are flying ahead of me. :bawling: I'll have to hurry up.
Virgil and Antiquarian, take heart - I feel just as behind actually; I still need to re-listen to the audiofile; should be doing that now. We are only discussing why Leontes seems so rash in his assumptions. We haven't gotten very far into the text, I don't think; at least I hope not.
I'm behind, too. I have to re-read Act I to follow this dicussion in detail. also read the whole play to know what others talking about and don't get confused.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Those who interested in this play, I started a thread on the perfoming aspect of Shakespeare's plays which will help. This is the link, I'll be glad if you share your ideas and especially photos.
Hi Sophia, must be day there for you; it is night and time for me to depart for sleepland.:lol: I posted one thing in your thread, so far. I hope you like it. I have been collecting some photos part of today, but getting those together with some statistics is not easy; hope to post some more tomorrow. Glad you linked the new thread with this thread. It should be great fun, and quite educational. I was just watching a You tube of a ballet dancer I saw tonight on a DVD of "Romeo and Juliet". I will post something on her and her newer production tomorrow. She was extraordinary; so graceful and lovely.Quote:
Originally Posted by sofia82
I feel behind in the reading, as well; don't worry - we will all catch up soon. This discussion goes on the whole summer, right?
Why Leontes is rash is the key to the play. It needs full discussion. I have thoughts on it, but not ready to express them yet. I completed my full read last night and now I just need to read Act I again, while taking notes. I may post my thoughts on this tonight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
notes?! :eek2: does this mean Ill be spending all summer semi studying?
Yes, it seems so. I have to read Act I again to find this rashness in Leon line by line and other subjects, too. First of all, I want to finish the whole play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightshade