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In March, we will be reading Dubliners by Joyce, who once said:Please post your thoughts and questions on the book in this thread.Quote:
Writing in English is the most ingenious torture ever devised for sins commited in previous lives.
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I finished Dubliners at the start of this year. I had read it for a looong time, since about the half-year (for some reason it took me a while!).
I have to say what's said to be the greatest short story ever written, The Dead I found didn't really strike a chord with me like in his other stories, such as Eveline, An Encounter or Two Gallants. I found them amazing, the little portraits he paints of everyday people going about everyday things, and how they suddenly have these little epiphanies about what they're life is really about...but keep doing whatever they're doing all the same!
Well, I guess I did find The Dead sort of struck a chord, but I mean, it was so long and drawn out...I think he could've halved the story and it the ending would have had a stronger impact, the bit in the hotel room, perhaps as a separate story.
The conversations of famous tenors and things over dinner was quite long and laborious. I guess all I really identified with was the beginning with the introductions of people, the...narrator, as it seemed to float from one place to the next in The Dead, you got the feeling you were just waltzing and swaying to different conversations. That was an awesome feeling, for me anyway. But yeah, I think a lot of The Dead could have been shortened somewhat.
But, all in all, really enjoyed Joyce's Dubliners! I'm psyching myself up to read Ulysses. That'll be a challenge. I'm waiting with abated breath until that day when I walk into a year 12 classroom, and being asked an all manner of questions about why I have such a huge book on top of my pile. Especially from the english teacher. Me reading Ulysses I think is an A+ for achievement straight off! :D
The Dead left me somewhat for cold the first time I read it too. Then I went to the Joyce Centre and sat down at a live action version of the story where the audience were welcomed as guests. Returning to the story I found it extremely moving. Has anyone seen the John Huston film?
I've just finished Counterparts and found it the most engaging. My favorites so far are: An Encounter, Araby, A Little Cloud and Counterparts. I loved the end of After the Race.
They say nothing really happens in these stories, but I disagree and have ignored my wifes call for dinner because of my focus on Joyce's stories. Maybe it was different in Joyce's time, where people were use to the traditionl novel. The mundane and trivial has become the conviention, so it's not something I have to adapt to.
So far, I've read about half the stories. After reading Ulysses, this is a welcome change. I like the tight, descriptive prose, and I also disagree that the stories are "about nothing". If anything, they take very realistic situations and force you to reflect on them. I'm still not sure if this is a superior form of writing or not, but it's certainly an interesting one.
The story I most recently finished was The Two Gallants. I had the reread the last few paragraphs a few times, and still I'm not sure what the significance of the gold coin is. Can anyone elucidate the point that is supposed to make for me?
Joyce's vocabulary, by the way, is stellar. I've had to open a dictionary up at least a few times every story, only to still find myself baffled by the use of the word in the context Joyce uses it. For example, in the "The Sisters" how does one lay solemn and "copious" (bottom of page 5 in my Bantam Classics version)?
This seems to be the biggest appeal of reading Ulysses. I suppose that, in the past, the books content was very fresh and controversial. Obviously, now our society embraces all manners of things that Joyce may have considered to be "taking it too far", so one of the biggest advantages to reading something like Ulysses is being able to say that you've read something less than 10% of the people who read it can understand.Quote:
But, all in all, really enjoyed Joyce's Dubliners! I'm psyching myself up to read Ulysses. That'll be a challenge. I'm waiting with abated breath until that day when I walk into a year 12 classroom, and being asked an all manner of questions about why I have such a huge book on top of my pile. Especially from the english teacher. Me reading Ulysses I think is an A+ for achievement straight off!
Seriously, though, that's not the only reason to read the book. There's a lot going on there. Just don't do what I did and read it without any sort of help the first time around. Make sure to get a nice, annotated version. Or, then again, don't. Joyce didn't mean for it to be read annotated the first time, after all!
I'm also planning to read Ulysses is for the statement you just posed, that to be able to say I've read something that only 10% of the people who read it can understand. Plus being able to read one of the hardest novels ever written of the 20th century, and indeed one of the best novels written of the 20th century. I'm currently halfway through Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. That's a very interesting book too. I've been to the James Joyce centre, when I was in Dublin halfway through last year. I really enjoyed it, however I forgot what the thunder-words were in Finnegans' Wake...there was a little fact-note on the stairs that explained them...they're meant to be if you times the syllables or something they divide into a perfect 100...or something. I'd love to know what they meant again, because I thought that Joycean fact was cool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kent Edwins
Though I forgot to mention I enjoyed Counterparts as well, that's a good short story of his. Joyce, for me anyway, with his short stories, seems to write with this air of mysticism and the ethereal, as if the people he is characterizing are sort of...archetypes, frozen in time.
Did anyone else get that 'suspended archetypal animation' sort of feeling as they went? I also found them quite cold, as someone else previous has already mentioned, and quite dense to read.
Now that you mention it, I do too. Not because the characters are some kind of far off paragons, but because the characters feel so real. These characters could just as well be you or me or anyone. So far, though, the character that has caught my attention the most is Eveline. In the introduction, it said that the character Eveline is supposed to represent Joyce's beloved Nora, only under different circumstances.Quote:
Did anyone else get that 'suspended archetypal animation' sort of feeling as they went? I also found them quite cold, as someone else previous has already mentioned, and quite dense to read.
Good work. I need to get started on Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man myself. I've heard that it's the necessary prologue to Ulysses, as well as a book very worth reading by someone of my own age and considerably more tackle-able then Ulysses or, worst of all, Finnegan's Wake. I admit I'm afraid to touch that last one, but after I'm finished rereading Ulysses this summer perhaps that's something I'll look into doing.Quote:
I'm currently halfway through Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. That's a very interesting book too. I've been to the James Joyce centre, when I was in Dublin halfway through last year. I really enjoyed it, however I forgot what the thunder-words were in Finnegans' Wake...
I think I've got these stories somewhere in my bookshelf. If I can find the time to read them, I might join you guys
1: Lenehan had the women steal it from her employer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kent Edwins
2: Copious- full of thought, information, or matter.
Do you think the old man was masturbating when he left the boys in An Encounter?
Still trying to locate my copy. Looks like i may have to buy it again.
It's very possible. Especially of the guilt associated with Masturbation in Catholicism, as Ireland was mostly Catholic (or at least Christian) at the time. I admit that that is the impression I got originally. The man leaves the children thinking somewhat lusty thoughts, and then reappears reprimanding himself and all those who express his previous views. This could represent not only that guilt, but the inconsistency between what many people practiced as opposed to what they preached.Quote:
Do you think the old man was masturbating when he left the boys in An Encounter?
I did read somewhere, I think in the introduction, that "Dubliners" are stories of anger that Joyce wrote. The common theme is that they all deal with things that were ruining Dublin at the time.
Yes, it was absolutely beautiful!Quote:
Originally Posted by Cailin
And now I see I had better do some long-intended reading if I'm going to get into this discussion. :( Even if only for The Dead.
I can't remember the story in which it appears, it's one of the earlier ones, but Joyce uses the similie "shaking like a leaf". I wonder if the phrase was in common use in his time.
Does anybody think Joyce is inconsistent in his attempt of objectivity?
Shaking like a leaf?Quote:
Originally Posted by NickAdams
:lol: Thats a term we use in ireland to say you were terrified/ afraid, or freezing cold....
Dubliners is just displaying the life that Joyce saw and disliked about Dublin at the time. Each story is supposed to deal with realities he saw, and things people did. In the Dead, the dull conversation over dinner, and becoming aware of the reality but not doing anything about it and continuing on, is something that has happened to us all. Its like he's calling us all cowards, telling us to do something that we dont think we can. I mean how many of us have been slapped in the face by reality, but when it came to doing something about it, didnt, and continued on because it was expected of us?
My mother used that term a lot and her mother was of Irish descent. I can't remember if it was used in first-person narrative or not. If yes then it's fine, because it's the characters voice, but it would be too cliche to be a part of an objective narrative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niamh
I thought "A Little Cloud" was the most moving of all the stories. How, the shy narrator, unable to express himself, yet desiring to tell his wife his feelings, and to show to his friend his life was worthwhile, ends up realizing that his own son has usurped his wife's affection. Heartbreaking, yet completely realistic.
I think the thing with Joyce is, as I have heard a critic say, though forget which one, we all want to know who his characters are, and how he knows them, since the range is so fascinating, and each story is so plausible and realistic, yet it is impossible to see how Joyce could have accumulated such a great insight into the variety of people living in Dublin, from all forms of society.
You obviously haven been to dublin!:p Everywhere you turn you meet someone different form all society as you say. But then again i suppose it is something i would notice because i'm a dubliner. (shame theres no shrugging smilie) It would have been the same for Joyce. It also should be pointed out that he has experienced the variety of society himself growing up; going from middle class society in bray to working class inner city dublin. He'd have seen teh snobbery of upper classes and the poverty of families thrown together in tenements..
You're right! What a great and moving story it was! Little Clouds (who doesn't have any "Little Clouds" that hang over them) will definitely go down in my memory as being one of the better and more personally touching stories I've read.Quote:
I thought "A Little Cloud" was the most moving of all the stories. How, the shy narrator, unable to express himself, yet desiring to tell his wife his feelings, and to show to his friend his life was worthwhile, ends up realizing that his own son has usurped his wife's affection. Heartbreaking, yet completely realistic.
Yes, Cailin, I have seen the film and infact own it on VHS tape and love it. I was about to mention it when I read your post. I have watched it many times now and it only gets better. They say it was Houston's 'Valentine' to Ireland and he features his daugther in the film. I love all the characters and the acting is superb; I think one can get a better picture of what is going on conversationally in the story. I have read the story many times as well, and the last lines strike me all the time, right straight to the my core, like an arrow. I also like the film called "Nora" which explores the personal relationship between Joyce and his wife. The film stars two very fine actors that pull it off well - Susan Lynch and Ewan McGregor. If you see the film, you will understand that the story in "The Dead" that the wife tells her husband, Gabriel, is indeed the actual story that Nora told to Joyce when they were married. This part is autobiographical and I think, when I found this out it gave the story "The Dead" much more meaning and depth for me. personally. I think the complexity of Gabriel's feelings at the end of that story is what makes the story so compelling. I always ponder the last lines for days, after reading the story again or seeing the film or the biographical film, which gives it even more poignancy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cailin
I think it is interesting what you say, Nimah, about Dublin today. We are lucky to get a first hand impression from you, since you actually live there. Do you think, that in Joyce's time, the situations of diversity in the big city were as apparent as they are today? I am just curious and like to learn more about that time period in Dublin history and Joyce's time. I also am quite interested in Dublin, present day.
One of my favorite of the "Dubliners" stories is "Araby" and I do love the story "The Dead". It certainly is a great collection and diverse and I wish I could currently find my book, which seems to be eluding me from my bookshelves. I read the entire book a few years ago, but since have re-read "Araby" and "The Dead." I also have read "Portrait of an Artist as a Young Man" which is excellent, but somehow I love the short stories of Joyce's best of all.
I recon it is still somewhat the same as it was back then.
The thing about Joyces Dublin is what was going on back then. The Irish Literary revival which was mainly headed by Aristocrats, but the players that preformed in some of the theatres were from every society. O'Connell street (or Sackville street as it was called back then) was one of the main streets in Dublin at the time, same as now. Some of the pricey shops where there, but yet literally around the corner were tenements, so the wealthy upper class, middle classes, working classes and the down right poor were never that far from each other.
Not too mention all the nationalism. was like an addictive drug back then. Alot of patriotism..and he was surrounded by it.
Thanks Niamh, this is some good first-hand information from a native Dubliner. I wonder though how different Dublin is from other big cities. Is it the close proximity of the neighborhoods and how they overlap, or border each other? Is it the combination of the various classes living side-by-side that makes Dublin unique? It seems in parts of NYC, there are areas like this, where there might be pricey shops, but then a few blocks from there, there are tenements or very poor streets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niamh
The nationalism and patriotism make sense to me. I can see where that was a huge element in Joyce's writing especially in "The Dead" story and the story about a board room...I forget the exact name; woe is me - I still have not located my book of "Dubliners".:bawling:
edit: I just looked it up and the story is "Ivy Day in the Committee Room"...it has been awhile since I read it but it seemed to be strong on political, nationlistic, patriotic views....as least I think....I need to review it actually.
Well like most places, Dublin is split into areas. Dublin 4 being one of the most expensive places to live in the city. Its home to most of the Ambassadors to Dublin, Filty rich, The Four Season, and RDS, But Dublin 4 also consists of Ringsend which is a bit dog rough, run down and working class.
On the northside of the city we have another couple of examples. Clontarf is a very settled middle class area,quiet, respectable, but then there is also a part of Clontarf thats more working class than the rest.
Most parts of inner city Dublin have new posh apartment blocks side by side with council flats. Its just the way Dublin is really....
Thanks Niamh, that makes sense to me. I guess it is very much like many cities but maybe more so back in Joyce's day in distinction in this divided way. It is interesting to hear of all the different names of the areas or districts. Niamh, you can be our 'good-will ambassador' to Dublin and educate us all.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Niamh
I gave up hunting for my book and checked "Dubliners" out of my local library tonight. It should be interesting to re-read some of the stories.
A little off topic, but does anyone know what "class" Joyce would have been considered? In which area of Dublin would he have lived?
He was at first probably middle class. His dad had a very good job they lived in Bray until only a little while after his dad lost his job. I think his family moved back into dublin from there, most likely inner city dublin. He attended a school on the north richmond street, which is one of the streets mentioned in dubliners.
That is funny, I was going to ask the same question. Glad that got answered. Thank, Niamh....very helpful.
Since someone mentioned the story "A Little Cloud", I decided to start with that one, since I could not clearly recall it; so I read half of it last night. I liked it so far; unfortunately I feel asleep reading it. When I finish up, I will talk a little about it. I was lucky enough to get this book from my library, which includes commentary notes at the back - they seem to be very helpful.
Thats never a good sign!!!:pQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
:lol: Niamh, it can be the most exciting book and I will nod off. Audiobooks are even worse for me. I lay down with headphones on and I am doomed. I usually wake up hours later, all the room lights are still on and the batteries are now low and I missed most of the CD or the MP3 file, since it finally shut off. It is a sure cure for insomnia! ;) :eek2: :lol: It is called 'trying to do too darn much!'...it was after 3:30 AM last night when I fell asleep, and after viewing two movies, so I guess I can be excused. Hopefully, I will finish up the story tonight...and stay awake. I made cappuccino after dinner, so that might help revive me. :eek::DQuote:
Originally Posted by Niamh
I nodded off whist reading "The Ivy League Committee Room" today. I was tired and not really getting it, I guess. But I can nod off while reading anything, so it's no big deal.
I've finished all the stories except for the Dead now. That story is the most famous, so I can't wait to read it. I'll share my thoughts on it sometimes tomorrow.
Kent, of all the stories, I found that one the hardest to get through and to understand. I can see how you would nod off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kent Edwins
"The Dead" is a great story - a perfect story in my opinion. I like the film by John Houston, also. I mentioned it a few posts back. If you have a chance do see it someday. They say it was Houstons' valentine to his native Ireland. It perfectly captures the story in my opinion. I own the film on VHS tape and have viewed it more than once. I love it!
The story makes a lot more sense if you understand Irish history. Not that I claim to be an expert in Irish history by any means. The story makes numerous references to Charles Steward Parnell, the so-called "uncrowned king of Ireland" and a major political figure in Irish history. The date that story happens on is a day in remembrance of him. Joyce is playing on the irony of his character's insouciance about their existence, their political status, who their politician even happens to be. They superficially are engaging in politics, but the characters' central concerns are money and alcohol. All the political expression in the story is superficial, symbolized when they burn up the card with their politico's name on it to use as a cigerrette. This is hammered home when the conservative Crofton goes out stumping for Tierney even though they are of different parties.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kent Edwins
In other words, all of this is a far cry from the days of Parnell. Irish politics is in a state of decay as are Irish lives in general in this story. This is emphasized by the lack of coal to relight the fire at the very beginning; they can't afford coal to light a fire. That opening also further symbolizes Irish history as burning out before it ever gets going, this endless reusing of the ashes to offer a little flame that doesn't really do much against the rain and cold, which will inevitably run out and stop burning.
Wow, thanks so much, Drkshadow, for writing all this. Now the story makes so much more sense to me. I have not yet re-read it, but I recall that, when I did a few years back, the meaning was vague and eluded me, because I am quite ignorant of the Irish politics in the story. I only had such a vague idea of it. The devices you mention here, such as the fire and the fact they can't afford to light it, and the other symbolism/imagery is quite revealing to me. Now when I re-read the story, I am sure I will have a much better understanding and persepective on it. Thanks again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drkshadow03
Joyce was a Catholic writer. The Trinity is a Catholic symbol which represents a holy union that appears repeatedly in Dubliners and is presented in various forms.
The book is structured into three parts with part one comprising the first three stories, part two the next eight, and part three the next three, with ''The Dead'' being an addition that had not been initially appended to the collection. This structuring was determined by Joyce scholar William Powell Jones in his book James Joyce and the Common Reader*.
"The Sisters'' has an incomplete trinity in the form of two nurses (in Ireland as in Australia, a nurse is addressed as 'sister') and their deceased and rather dissolute brother.
In ''An Encounter'' the narrator sought to form a trio of kids who sought fun by playing hooky. One of the kids shows up but the third never makes it. Thus, a second series of incomplete trinity.
In ''Araby'' there are two sets of trios in the young narrator with his aunt and uncle and the trio of the young lady and what appears to be two suitors.
In ''The Dead'' we see 'Three Graces'. These represent ''those qualities which give charm to nature and to wisdom, love, social intercourse...'' **
The word ''catholic'' means universal. In Joyce's portrayal of Dublin, he portrayed a society that served as microcosm for the universal experience. As a Catholic writer he was concerned with injustice, despair, and disharmony. Note the language that appears throughout the stories:
'no hope', 'faintly', 'darkened', 'corpse', 'paralysis', 'maleficent', 'sinful', and 'deadly'
And all this is just on page one! Just about every other story is replete with similar language.
The book's inital story ''The Sisters'' and its final one ''The Dead'' have one theme in common: death --- again, another Catholic theme.
Yet, one could help but sense a feeling of hope and of ultimate reward. Perhaps of redemptive reward. Yes, still again - another Catholic theme.
* University of Oklahoma Press, 1955, pp 13,14
** Gifford, Don: Joyce Annotated, Univ of Calif Press, 1982, p 118
hellsapoppin:Quote:
Originally Posted by hellsapoppin
What is specifically "Catholic" about death? The way it is depicted in the stories? Can you explain?
Could you also explain more ny what you mean when you say that there is a feeling of hope and ultimate reward at the end? In which stories?
I don't mean to challenge your reading, but I felt the exact opposite in many of these stories, there is always a sense of stalemate, paralysis, of going nowhere, and movement that only leads to dead-ends. The only one I haven't read yet is "The Dead." So I am actually rather curious to hear how you came to that very different reading because I wonder if I might be missing something important, especially as a non-Catholic.
How I wish Jones' book was available online. His essay on Dubliners would easily answer your queries.
There never has been a rigid definition of what constitutes a Catholic writer, except for the fact that they have recurrent themes in their works. I mentioned a few previously such as life-and-death, redemption, injustices, and stream of consciousness, suffering, quest for preservation, and various conflicts. They share values, adhere to certain traditions, and seek to learn or to impart wisdom --- all within a Catholic framework.
As for death, you may be familiar with William Cullen Bryant's great poem Thanatopsis { http://www.poetry-archive.com/b/thanatopsis.html } . The title means 'a study of death'. Yet, a reading of it reveals that it is a strong affirmation of life.
In his essay Jones determined that the stories were in stages which reflect growth and maturity. First, early childhood, then adolescence, then adulthood. While the early stories deal with paralysis, dead ends, and seeming hopelessness as you accurately report, the stories gradually evolve into a more positive set of themes. Jones writes, '' 'The Dead' {reveals} a new theme, that of mature love, sympathetically portrayed. The geniality and warmth of the story, in spite of its title, seem to have been intended by the author to lift the collection [that is the earlier set of stories] from its 'special odour of corruption' ... ''
Note the main character in ''The Dead'' is Gabriel. In Catholic teaching he is the Archangel empowered to bring comfort and hope to humanity. Note also how it starts with the word 'Lily' --- the lily symbolizes death and rebirth and is used at Easter to symbolize the hope of heavenly rebirth by Catholics during those holidays.
Other Catholic themes include lapsed Catholics who are those no longer associated with the church and who often succumbed to dissipation. There is the theme of Marianism where nurturing women are portrayed in the stories. Lastly, there is the hope of redemption in ''Grace'' - ''with God's grace, I will rectify this and this. I will set right my accounts''.
Indeed, positivity with hope of redemption is the concluding theme of the stories.
I dont think deming these themes as "catholic Themes" Is correct. They are fairly universal and appear in all kinds of literature.Quote:
Originally Posted by hellsapoppin
Gabriel also happens to be a very common name in Dublin. and possibly was very common at the time Joyce wrote The Dubliners. Surely it would make sense if he was writing a book bases on us Dubs, he would use the names everyone hears daily in and around the city! Personally i dont see the "Catholic theme".Quote:
Note the main character in ''The Dead'' is Gabriel. In Catholic teaching he is the Archangel empowered to bring comfort and hope to humanity.
Okay Hells...so we've heard the interpretation from a guy called Jones from you. Why dont you actually tell us what you actually thought of the book.
I attended a couple of Joyce book club meetings in New York about 30 years ago or so. Catholic symbolism was said to be a recurrent theme in his writing. Again, catholic means universal and it is a consensus among Joycian scholars that his books have universal themes. My point in quoting Jones is that I agree with his interpretation.
Yet, it is a fact that interpretations of books can change with the times. In his days Euripedes was thought to be a misogynist because he wrote of women who could think. In modern days he was described as an early feminist because these portrayals.
In my notes above I also quoted Gifford and he lists all the Catholic symbols in Joyce. He specifically identifies Gabriel and Lily as Catholic symbols. Perhaps people today are viewing Joyce in a different light. If anything, that adds immeasurably to the merits of Joyce's work.
Just finished with Dubliners a little bit ago. The Dead was unlike anything I have ever read before! What a tremendous build-up, for one. And I am baffled and moved at the same time as to how effective Joyce can describe even the most mundane events. I admit, I'm no macho guy, and found myself breaking out in tears at the end of the story; more so then I ever have for any other piece of writing. Now I understand why Joyce is widely considered to be one of, if not THE, greatest writer of all time. I'm so glad I read this book! I'm definitely casting my vote for this one as a classic. Joyce is no hack!
I read Dubliners a year and a half ago but I don't remember it too well from then apart from the very basic plot. I've just finished Araby. I loved The Sisters and An Encounter. Is it just me or do I notice a style which would deeply influence Hemingway? Joyce doesn't openly give anything away or make things blatant but understates things very subtly so that you have to read between the lines, and this is something that's true for Hemingway as well. In fact I remember the first time I read The Sun Also Rises I didn't really think too much of it as I hadn't grasped the subtle nature of his writing, but once I'd read some more of his stuff and went back to it I realized how good it was. Probably this is the same reason why The Dead left me cold last time I read it as well, hopefully it will be different this time. But the way in which The Sisters approaches the subject of the priest and whatever it is that he's done without ever mentioning it, like it's something so unpleasant that the characters go out of their way not to put it directly into words, reminds me particularly of Hills Like White Elephants. But maybe I can't help but make this association because I just read Men Without Women last month and am currently reading For Whom the Bell Tolls along with Dubliners.
'The Dead' is a masterpiece, in my opinion. The more one reads it the more one does read between the lines and sees all the little nuances of the characters. It is excellent the way it builts up to that ending. The ending does bring out so much in way of emotion. One's heart goes out deeply to Gabriel and also to his wife. As I said, before this story that the wife reveals to her husband is based on a true story that Nora, Joyce's wife revealed to him after they had been married and had several children, so that I feel this story is completely personal to Joyce, himself and the way he felt at the time.
And I totally agree with Niamh, these stories are universal and not Catholic. If anything they are critical of the Catholic way of thinking and narrowmindedness at that time in history. I hope I am not offending any devout Catholics by saying this but if you know Joyce's history, he left Dublin and went to Italy to escape this sort of biasness. So considering this fact, why would his stories be only Catholic. I don't understand that sort of thinking and I believe all commentary is not accurate. Critics and analysts tend to read much more into things than they should. If Joyce were alive today he might laugh at so much emphasis being placed on the simple name of Gabriel. Besides Gabriel as the archangel is not just a Catholic symbol. It has many connotations. The spectrum is broader than that of just the Catholic Church.
Many of the things you said, Hellsapoppin, I was considering while I read, could apply to much broader interpretations. I don't think you should limit your thoughts to a few courses you took and one man's commentary on Joyce's work. I think you need to see the full picture, and a good biography of Joyce, would help you to see this. I read his brother's book and found it quite interesting; but God knows there are many more accounts of Joyce, that one could look into and get a good perspective on how the actual man/author thought and based his work on.