God punishes the disobedience of Adam and Eve by expelling them from the Garden of Eden. He banishes Cain for murdering Abel. Why then does the Hebrew Bible show that Jacob receives no punishment for deceiving Isaac and Esau?
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God punishes the disobedience of Adam and Eve by expelling them from the Garden of Eden. He banishes Cain for murdering Abel. Why then does the Hebrew Bible show that Jacob receives no punishment for deceiving Isaac and Esau?
The fact that your question requires rationalizing of something that otherwise doesn't make sense should tell you something.
The answer to this question is more complicated that I want to go into (because I don't think most people want to read massive paragraphs) so I will say this: if you examine Jacob's life, you will see that the consequences of his manipulative behavior were revisited many times upon him. The deceiver Jacob was in turn deceived by Laban (with the bride-switch of Leah instead of the desired Rachel); as well, Jacob's "quadruple-wife" family (Leah, Rachel and their handmaidens) created incredible strife for Jacob as he got older (the story of his son Joseph's betrayal by his brothers). Jacob did not escape "scot-free" from his misbehaviors. His choices gave him troubles later in his life (just like things work now).Quote:
Originally Posted by isotopez
Perhaps early on God needed to make the consequences more overt and explicit (simply by nature of the fact that humanity hadn't been on the earth long enough to understand the long-range consequences of sin - but later, God allowed (as I think He does now) the natural consequences of our choices to occur because enough time had passed to where people could see that certain choices (murder, trickery) had serious effects on family and community.
This dismissal serves to flick the problem away without even bothering to try and explore the fact that there may indeed be some logic behind it.Quote:
Originally Posted by NikolaiI
the narrative of the bible is fundamentally true, but the bible does contain corruptions deletions and additions. there is documentary called "who wrote the bible" it talks about how there are many authors of sections of the bible how it was redacted and how it came to be in its present form. the bible is not the unadulerated word of God.
so stories like that about jacob could have been inserted to corrupt what is essential right guidance for humanity.
a person has to find the pure word of God and follow it
Maybe it's because Bible has changed by Rabbis...Quote:
Originally Posted by isotopez
THANK YOU.Quote:
Originally Posted by iorix
I truly can't think of anything more or better to say than that.
If I was suddenly raised by the people to the status of prophet, and people believed me to be an intermediary to God, and believed what I say, it does not make it true.
1. The question persists: if God is capable of bringing the universe into existence, is He not powerful enough to make sure that the essential components of His word are left intact and that flat out corruption not be included?Quote:
Originally Posted by iorix
2. The Bible is a document that God allowed humanity to have a hand in making. Scholars can slice, dice and examine all they want - emendations, insertions, etc do not necessarily mean the book is "corrupt." You do not know that God was not behind the "edits."
3. And what/where exactly would I find the "pure word of God"?
``Is God being unfair?``
Yes. Being the creator of all evil, he is as capricious, unfair, murderous, and downright evil as he wants to be. This may not sit well with his defenders but it is fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellsapoppin
Please do not try to dignify your opinion as FACT. I can respect that it's your opinion, but not your assertion that it is a fact.
And, as I've said to you elsewhere: if He's so "evil," why does He continue to let you and others like you live to name-call Him? Why hasn't an unfair and evil God demonstrated his capriciousness and simply eliminated those who place themselves in opposition to Him?
An answer to this (since I've posted it to you at least a few times) would be instructive.
Practice what you preach --- if he is so ''good'', why allow a Hitler or a Bush to persist in their evils?? Just ask their victims how ''good'' he is.
God allowed Hitler to do what he did so that America would fight a big fight and a lot of men would be apart from their families for a while so that when they came back (if they did) they would have a lot of babies, which would create the baby boom, which is the generation of George W. Bush. George Bush, since his parents were affected by WWII, probably grew up in an environment where he was taught that "oversea troublemakers" (like Hitler) have a way of ruining things, so he was inclined to join in a conflict like he has. And that happened so that you would be bothered enough to mention those two figures in your post. Because of your post, I decided to try to show you how God has been working for years to get you where you are. Congratulations, much history has happened in order for you to be exactly who you are. Because of that, if you feel that who you are is in any way good, then that is something good that God has done.
LOL! I can't figure out what you're saying but it sounds like something a politician would use in a campaign speech!
Part of God's "goodness" is His gift of free will towards humanity - you have the freedom to choose good or to choose evil. That humanity chooses evil grieves God, but He respects the dignity of the creatures He has created so much that He will not violate our free will, even when that free will may cause us to harm others. That's not much consolation, I know, but a world where we could not choose but to be good would not be world worth living in. As well, God assures us that all will eventually be made right - all accounts will be balanced - and the suffering on earth will eventually fade away in the glory of living in the presence of Almighty God.Quote:
Originally Posted by hellsapoppin
The god who would wipe Hitler and Bush off the face of the earth for their evil would also have had to do the same to you for the evil in this life you've commited - don't flatter yourself that since you haven't killed anybody that your sins are trifling; most psychologists will attest to the fact that emotional scars far outlast the physical. Careless gossip can ruin a life just as easily as something far more "serious."
Here we go again! Since you continually resort to the same self-justifications and excuses there is no further use in replying.
I'll assume this means you forfeit.Quote:
Originally Posted by hellsapoppin
Had you taken the time to point out for me how I'm using "self-justifications" and "excuses," I might have had some clarity as to the weaknesses of my position. But, since you've not dealt specifically with any of my arguments I am left wondering what the flaws in my logic indeed are.
Better luck next time, I suppose.
im gonna have to agree with ya Zepp.
Thank you, kindly. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Van Dalen
The Bible is full with God's unfairness.Do you remember Egypt,where God killed every family's older son in order that the Faraon would let the Hebrew people go?It's even that famous song of Louis Armstrong "Go down Moses"...
The Bible is,in the end,a horrible account of punishments and unending sufferings of sinners,or so-called-sinners.After all,in today's world,and anytime,as long as the human mind can remember,evilness has been either punished by humans themselves or has gone unnoticed(so they say).What would make me believe that there is a God,good or bad,it doesn't matter for the moment,while I decide myself the course of my life?
If God makes the rules (and who else would?)
How can he be unfair?
That's a good point, fool on the hill, it's what I believe.
But I don't believe God interfered so much with human affairs as is described in the OT.
To me a being of infinite love would not do those things. They happened or are told about by people who claimed to be prophets. Of course there IS a god, and we can live our lives according to his will, in freedom, but these people were self-deluded into thinking god told them to do acts of hate. When a person believes this, it is their own voice in their minds that they worship and obey, and it is something dark. But that's not god.
Why would I believe a written testimony that God hardened the heart of Herod?
What human would know this? They wouldn't. It's a lie. Same as if I told you God hardened Bush's heart so that he could follow his will in cluster-bombing thousands of Iraqi homes.
Furthermore, with any reflection at all, the statement "God hardened the heart of Herod" doesn't mean anything at all-- words do not mean the same thing after 2000 years
``The Bible is,in the end,a horrible account of punishments and unending sufferings of sinners,or so-called-sinners.``
note that an equal amount of innocents suffer as well because of this god's wicked attitude
I agree with you hells.
The only thing is, god is not exactly responsibile for the actions of people...
I mean, if someone wrote a book of lies about you, it's not your fault. And at the risk of offense, it's lies when we say someone does something for reasons we know-- that is, to say we know the reasons in their mind. And if we say god smote the sinners because he didn't like them-- this is....well, yeah.
``god is not exactly responsibile for the actions of people...``
We discussed my views on this on the other thread. As you know, I don't accept that notion though, again, you are free to believe it if you wish.
No, I am not talking about god being responsible for the actions of his creation, and all of that. Nor am I justifying god for the merciless acts accorded him in the bible. I am saying those are lies. If someone wrote a book relating horrible deeds about me, I wouldn't know what to think. Then if a lot of people justified me and argued and rationalized these acts, it would be even more bizarre!
The god I believe in didn't do any of the things in the bible. Basically, an infinite god is impossible to view, nor does he notice what goes on here on earth.
This is really a good question and of course that sets us in a series of doubts in the justice of God or the fact that he is really just to expel Adam and Eve on the ground that they were disobedient to God to eat the fruit.Quote:
Originally Posted by isotopez
If God is really compassionate and why He does not forgive his children? How can the precepts of Jesus synchronize with the act / vindication of God when He punishes.
God too must preach by setting example and since he regards us his children then he as the Father figure must obey the rules he sets to us.
Of course this post really speaks of what I always want to say.
I don't know about Christianity. But from my understanding of İslam, the God is not unfair at all. Men are unfair. And they blame God instead of themselves. Just like i saw some people of New Orleans on TV after Hurricane Catrina, they were all like "where was God?"...
I believe that God stopped Hitler in the form of the Allies. I don't know what the plan is with Bush or why things are happening the way that they are but who am I? Certainly not God.Quote:
Originally Posted by hellsapoppin
It's humans that have gone bad and caused all sorts of problems, not God. God has given us free will but He does show Himself when we call on Him and ask for help.
I understand where you're coming from (I think) in wondering why God allows bad things to happen. Even as a believer I've struggled with figuring that out. One thing that I've come to realize is that God is always around - it's me that doesn't always see Him. He knows what He's doing even when I don't. His plans are not based on whether or not I understand them.
A human that God was working through to write the testimony.Quote:
Originally Posted by NikolaiI
No offense intended, but how do you know? That opinion is not backed up by anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by NikolaiI
In the context of your argument, you are saying that the writer of that testimony made a claim that is not true. However, since your argument has no backing than you are essentially doing the same thing that you are accusing the writer of that testimony of doing.
And if God revealed this to you and was speaking through you then it would be true whether I agreed with it or not. I'm sure that many people during the time of Herod did not or would not have believed that God was hardening Herod's heart to fulfill a bigger plan. So what. The person that God revealed it to knew it.Quote:
Originally Posted by NikolaiI
God does not base His plans off of whether or not we all believe it. He's God - He does what He does and what can we, just a small and most times obnoxiously arrogant part of His creation, say about it?
If you don't agree with what the Bible says, I truly respect that. But to make a claim that something in it is a lie, especially only on the grounds of your mere opinion, is not a worthwhile argument in any way. I'm not saying you can't have an opinion, I'm saying you can't call your opinion the truth when it is, after all, an opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by NikolaiI
Distinguished Professor Percy Bridgman answered the idea that some god was not and could not be responsible for the world's ills when he said, ''Scientists aren't responsible for the facts that are in nature ... If anyone should have a sense of it is God. He put the facts there.''
This is the way rationalists think. And if you read the Bible you cannot come out with any other type of interpretation.
But if you wish to defy logic and common sense by still insisting that humans are accountable for the evils created by some god, then so be it.
``from my understanding of İslam, the God is not unfair at all.``
According to the Koran, Sura 91, Verse 8, Allah creates ALL evil. It also parallels the Bible's teaching in that it says nothing can befall you unless it is willed by this same god in Sura 9, verse 51.
This is whole 91th sura there's nothing about evil.Quote:
Originally Posted by hellsapoppin
1. By the Sun and his (glorious) splendor;
2. By the Moon as she follows him;
3. By the Day as it shows up (the Sun's) glory;
4. By the Night as it conceals it;
5. By the Firmament and its (wonderful) structure;
6. By the Earth and its (wide) expanse:
7. By the Soul, and the proportion and order given to it;
8. And its inspiration as to its wrong and its right;-
9. Truly he succeeds that purifies it,
10. And he fails that corrupts it!
11. The Tham�d (people) rejected (their prophet) through their inordinate wrong-doing,
12. Behold, the most wicked man among them was deputed (for impiety).
13. But the Messenger of Allah said to them: "It is a She-camel of Allah! And (bar her not from) having her drink!"
14. Then they rejected him (as a false prophet), and they hamstrung her. So their Lord crushed them for their sin and leveled them!
15. And for Him is no fear of its consequences.
And here's 9-51.
51. Say: "Nothing will happen to us except what Allah has decreed for us: He is our Protector": and on Allah let the Believers put their trust.
Also i would like to say God creates the concept of evil, but men chooses to perform evil action. At all, evil things are performed by men, creating a concept of evil doesn't mean being unfair.
Which translation are you using?
I used Rodwell's translation and it uses the word ''wickedness'' which means evil on line 8:
''By a Soul and Him who balanced it,
And breathed into it its wickedness''
p 419 published by Phoenix, 1909, re-published in 1992 and 1994
From what I can tell the creation of evil started when Satan chose to separate from God. Whether God created evil and Satan decided to spread it to humans or Satan himself created it by separating from God, I don't know. What I do believe, though, is that regardless of who created evil, Adam and Eve are accountable for injecting the problem of evil into the human race when they chose to disobey God.Quote:
Originally Posted by hellsapoppin
I don't see how comparing the analogy of the scientists to what the Bible says about evil works. Of course scientists aren't responsible for the facts that are in the world. The Bible makes it clear, however, that Adam and Eve brought evil into the human race. And yes, it is possible and very common to read the Bible and to have different interpretations. That's the way of literature of any kind. There are many "gray areas" in the Bible but I see the accountability of humans as being responsible for bringing evils into the world as very clear and a common theme of many of the stories found within the Bible. In fact much of the Old Testament shows that God was constantly trying to get people to stop treating each other so horribly.
If you're going to use the Bible as a reference then it is not "common sense" to think that He is responsible for the evils in the world and that humans are not. The God of the Bible is perfect, loving and holy. Many of the humans in the Bible are selfish, vile, and utterly ungrateful to God despite His love for them.
This same god created Satan - therefore it is he who ultimately created evil.
Loving fathers do not allow their children to needlessly die or suffer torment. Any loving father worth his salt will readily sacrifice himself for his children. Only a selfish and hate filled father would be so stupid and callous as to sacrifice his children for his good.
hallsapoppin, good fathers do let children suffer for their mistakes. To God, physical life is of little value compared to spiritual life and eternal life after physical death. Because of that, the loss of a physical life is not the end as far as God is concerned. If people physically dying will bring God glory, then so be it, because the people will have eternal life after death anyway, so they haven't lost anything.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't appear that this forum is related to any particular piece of literature, except maybe the Bible and Quran.
I used to think God was fair by definition, so whatever bad thing came my way was either training material because he liked me, or punishment because I'd been bad. Having been raised Catholic, in addition to other formative events, I believed the latter more often than the former.
After leaving the One True Church, and spending a decade in various forms of evangelical fundamentalism, which, it turns out are also One True Churches, I finally concluded that there is no God.
This began to happen when, as I was reading the story of David and Bathsheba, it was suddenly transformed before my eyes.
David, King of Israel, is up on his roof and spots Bathsheba bathing on another roof. He exercises his kingly prerogative, summons her to his chambers, then sends her home. Pregnant, it turns out. He brings husband Uriah home from the war for some unscheduled leave, hoping he'll muddy the tracks, but Uriah is a man of honor. He won't indulge himself while his comrades in arms are suffering on the front. Frustrated, David sends him back to the front, and instructs Uriah's commander to take the men into battle, then withdraw, leaving Uriah alone in the thick of it. This works. With Uriah dead David marries Bathsheba. At this point, God decides He can't condone all this treachery.
He does the only reasonable thing, under the circumstances. He executes the baby.
Getting on in years, David decides he needs someone to keep him warm at night and sends his gophers out to find that special someone. You'd think Mical and Bathsheba could keep things plenty warm enough for him, but he brings in Abishag the Shunammite, probably all of 15 years old, to take the chill off. Finally he dies, old and full years, and God's favorite guy, after Abraham.
So David and his obedient Army Officer get off scot-free, while the baby and Uriah (and Abishag, for that matter) get punished.
I realized then that God was no better than a common CEO. I lost interest in furthering His ends. After that it was a few short steps to realizing He didn't exist.
Viejo, I was off and on atheist, but for the vast majority devoutly atheist, all my life. I didn't understand as I do now at all until I was 19 years old. My mother was Presbyterian, my father was atheist, I went to various churches but mostly didn't attend, then attended some at 17. I studied Buddhist philosophy all along, and at some point Western philosophy; when I become absolutely convinced of the existence of God, it was defined in no better terms as in the words of Pascal: an infinite point, traveling at infinite velocity. In physical form an infinite, in spiritual form an infinite. The minutest understandings of God as an infinite- as nothing more, if most liberally defined, as the complete metaphorical or symbolic truth of that which is good, and all good; brings great reward. God is the very principle of the impossible, and its germ is in everything. Lovers understanding each other impossibly. Parents raising children impossibly. As a principle, God is inseparable from Love, and Hope. God is the source of our thoughts- the source of the universe becoming aware of itself, and observing the universe and itself. God is all this and Alan Watts said that we are God, every one of us is God being born. I'm not using this as a proof or confirmation or authority, just presenting an idea. None of these ideas are any heavier or lighter than any other. So God as an infinte, God as a principle, God as a generalized symbol of good, all of these are acceptable, but God as a vengeful "humanistic" deity, being affected emotionally and punishing mortal, finite, humans, this is not an acceptable existence. You will notice in the Bible it will be describing a series of events, and it will say "the Israelites went before their God and asked whether they should attack or retreat, and God told them to attack." What is this? It is a detraction, and a lie. Many believers of God believe this. (Hint: Hindu???)
``it doesn't appear that this forum is related to any particular piece of literature, except maybe the Bible and Quran.``
But these do constitute valid literature. Therefore, they fit within the scope of the forum's theme.
As for the notion that physical pain or want is acceptable because it leads to a better life, that is absurd. Moreover, the Bible shows that only a very small Elect will enjoy the benefit of the coming Kingdom.
Even this god's best ministers will be shut out of that Kingdom. See Matt 7:22, 23. Sorry, but this is not the work of a loving father.
``I don't see how comparing the analogy of the scientists to what the Bible says about evil works. Of course scientists aren't responsible for the facts that are in the world.``
Just to give Professor Bridgman's words a bit more context, he said that in response to the fact that several of his students were on the Los Alamos atomic bomb project. When challenged as to why scientists should not be held accountable for the terrible deaths that resulted from their work, he replied, '' we are only revealing and utilizing divine laws ''. Thus, if anyone is or should be held accountable, it is the same god who created it all in the first place.
A most logical reply.
You neglected to mention the verses immediately before those. Matt 7:21 says that the people who do God's will are the people who will enter heaven. Verses 22 and 23 are just saying that people who are bad all the time and don't do what God wants will still claim to God that they are doing what he wants. It's very clear if the whole section is read rather than just a few sentences taken out of context. I'd say that his "best ministers" would be the ones doing his will, which that passage specifically says will go to heaven.Quote:
Originally Posted by hellsapoppin
I think it is the opposite of absurd.Quote:
Originally Posted by hellsapoppin