How Come Good Literature Has to be Ruined by Bad Sex

I recently wrote a post on my book blog and it seems to be getting a lot of conversation going and I thought why not start that conversation here as well.

I enjoy reading a lot of contemporary literature, but it seems that authors and readers alike are dealing with a lot more sex! Right when I'm getting into a really great story with really great writing, I'm confronted with a very graphic sex scene. I'm not talking about suggestiveness, etc., but pretty graphic. Off the top of my head, a few I've read recently are Water for Elephants, The Almost Moon, and The Three Junes that have graphic scenes that I don't think are necessary to the story.

Why do authors feel the need to spell out every single, graphic detail? I’m okay with innuendos and suggestiveness. Just leave it me to fill in the blanks. But why does everything have to be, well, just too much! Is this really okay? Where has our brazen culture taken us? What would have been outrage 50 years ago is accepted and normal now. I just don’t enjoy reading what I would consider to be very sexually explicit material.

I'd like to know what your opinions are!

Personally such things really do not bother me in a book. Depending upon how it is used within the story. Though I am not offended by the presence of sex, if I think it is over used in a story or just thrown in for the sake of putting it there then I think that is a little stupid. But if it is a good story, that happens to have sex in it, then it does not bother me.

And if a person is really bothered by such things then they could choose to just skim over the sex parts if they are enjoying the rest of the book and story.

I think I sometimes feel the way you do N_maw...I sometimes come accross a book that is simply splendid, and think..."Wow, You don't get many of these without a horrid sex scene or plot." Then 40 pages later there is some ridiculous tale of sexual conduct that has no meaning whatever to the story, and it was like the editor said...put some sex in it, and it will sell otherwise forget it... I blame editors for everthing!

I honestly skip over it, or if I choose to read it, I find the scenes amusing. The way they describe them sometimes are quite laughable.

It bothers me more when they put a random, graphic sex scene in a very good film rather than in a very good book. I never get the point to those.

Generally, when I am watching those scenes, I am in the theater and I can't fast forward them. That is very frustrating. Yet, like I said, with a book, I can just skip those parts.

For some reason, and I really don't have a clue as to why, it seems that authors and filmmakers feel that those scenes are necessary now.

well, sex has become a more dominant force today than it could ever have been a decade ago, so yeah, i guess the editors feel like it would need it to help add to the sales and stuff like that.

personally i don't mind sex in books; then again i haven't really run into a book where i've felt that descriptions were unnecessary or detrimental to the plot.

i have this latest script that i'm directing and it has to do with sex, except now i'm not sure if i want somethig that leans nearer to suggestive or outright. i'll probably go for suggestive though, considering that my audience is comprised of high school students... but then again, suggestive is really a relative measure so i have noea if what suggestive is for ever so outrageous me is beyond olerable to the admin.. not that i have any plans of inviting them, lol

That is exactly the problem I have with contemporary literature: the characters are no longer burdened with philosophical questions,existentialist problems etc.,but the writers more generally turn to the ordinary,the mundane,and although that may be quite realistic,I just don't find it that compelling.

Of course,one of the elements of such writing is sex - and lots of it,along with sexually highly frustrated characters(Houellebecq,anyone?).

That is why I think literature is generally on a slump ever since postmodern writers appeared.

This has to do with people--readers of nowadays. We franckly like such scene thats why even the writers do include them in their novels.

I have the same feeling, although I don't really read that much of contemporary litrerature. I feel that the writers who make these kind of "scenes" in their books are neglecting the quality of the book and just want to sell more copies. It is the Hollywood effect where it is all about sex and money and this hugely effected the taste of many readers as well. I think you described it very accurately when you said "very graphic sex scene" it is true! It is like a porno movie lol and here you don't even to use your imagination it is all there.
I am not saying that these kind of books are necessarly bad, rather that these are some of the things that make them bad.

Sometimes the sex scene is not really about sex... and sometimes something quite "innocent" or banal is in fact a symbol of a sex... My "reading experience" is, that the more graphical the description of sex is, the higher probability it's in fact about something else. If you feel that the sex scene is somehow strange or doesn't fit in the story - that's quite clear signar the author wants you to stop there and think about it...

Try to ask yourself "what the author wanted me to see when he put that scene there?" Because he probably did have some reason for doing so. And while your answer doesn't necessarily be the "correct" one (in the sense that it doesn't have to really be what the author meant - however it is correct for you), the process of thinking about it itself will open your eyes for things in text you may have ignored before.

For example, when I first read Ian McEwan's Cement Garden few years ago, the incest scene was just that - and I was disgusted, labelled him as "mad pervert" and ignored him ever since. But last week I had to re-read it recently for my exam... and I was surprised that I understood it quite differently. The sex is still there; but now, it is so clear to me that it has different meaning that I can't understand how I didn't see it before. :)

The age-old question pops its gray head up: What is literature? Thanks to marketing and general brainwashing that our generation is subjected to, all books are labeled 'literature'. You go to literature discussions and find people going ecstatic about books that were printed for nothing else but making money. Our standards and critical abilities are at the stake here. But then critical thinking only makes it more awkward for the marketeers, lets do away with it. Why do we have to count everything as literature? Call it by its name, 'trash'-fiction. Anything that was written to excite sensuality instead of creating thoughtful critical response is not art, why should we call it literature? Sex sells and that which was primarily created for selling and selling fast instead of being critically appreciated is not art or even literature. Call them books, call them fiction, call them 'bestsellers', you have so many choices.

I feel similarily, and the interesting thing is every contemporary lit I've read in school since Gr.10 have involved some degree of sexual description. But, we must also bear in mind that even Shakespeare has blatant sexual languages, we are just not used to them.

I suppose we could also blame Freud...his almighty sex-dominant psychology theory then took over the literature and popular thinking...he sort of "scholarly legalised" the present day outlook on sex, whereas in the days of old classics, they are much more culturally unacceptable to bring out into open day light.

Sex never bothered me during reading and I've always felt that -under the right circumstances- its just the next logical step in some cases. Just like Dark Muse said, it only pisses me off if its placed out of context. Besides. Its how we all got here anyway.

AS opposed to being helped by good sex?
:p

Actually fairly recntly we had an enquirey someon wanted a modern book adult book with no sap or sex scenes, we stood there a good ten minutes before we could only come up with Agatha christie, and even that is debatable really.

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Originally Posted by Kafka's Crow

The age-old question pops its gray head up: What is literature? Thanks to marketing and general brainwashing that our generation is subjected to, all books are labeled 'literature'. You go to literature discussions and find people going ecstatic about books that were printed for nothing else but making money. Our standards and critical abilities are at the stake here. But then critical thinking only makes it more awkward for the marketeers, lets do away with it. Why do we have to count everything as literature? Call it by its name, 'trash'-fiction. Anything that was written to excite sensuality instead of creating thoughtful critical response is not art, why should we call it literature? Sex sells and that which was primarily created for selling and selling fast instead of being critically appreciated is not art or even literature. Call them books, call them fiction, call them 'bestsellers', you have so many choices.

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:thumbs_up I totally agree. You said what I wanted to.

I'm glad that sex isn't such a Taboo now- imagine how much better Tennyson's Arthurian stuff would have been with a few raunchy scenes. However, I do agree that authors are becoming a bit to fixated on it. Especially when it comes to males. I know as well as anyone how sexually driven men can be, be we honestly don't think about sex half as much as most people (including James Joyce who isn't so modern) seem to think we do. I'd like to see some of the focus taken off sex. It's a good thing that sex isn't such a shocker anymore, but it is being taken too far. Especially in the media.

Then again, I do think that a good piece of writing can be helped by a good sexual plot. For instance, anyone see Juno? I dare someone to tell me that the sexual aspect of its plot was uncalled for, or not necessary, or anything but incredibly meaningful, wonderfully sentimental, and just plain good story writing.

I'm sorry, I'm a prude. I just don't want sex scenes in my books or movies at all.

As an artist... albeit a visual artist... I have often joked with artist friends over the notion that virtually all great art centers upon one of three topics: sex, death... and oh well, what's the third?:goof: This is not too far from the truth with art. Personally I have no problem with graphic sexual scenes in art or literature... only with graphic sexual scenes that are totally gratuitous... or graphic sexual scenes that are poorly written... or part of a book that as a whole is poorly written. I don't buy the notion that art (or literature) that is intended to arouse sensuality and not thoughtful critical responses is "not art" or even automatically substandard art. First of all I question just how well we can be certain of the artist's "intentions" in any work. Second I would note that a great deal of the masterpieces of painting and sculpture from throughout history are clearly erotic... and it would seem that arousing a feeling of sensuality is far more central to many of these than inspiring "thoughtful critical responses". At the same time... I might note that sexuality... even rather explicit at times... is not some new development in art. One might think immediately of Chaucer's Miller's Tale, a good number of Boccaccio's tales from the Decameron, the Lysistrata, the poetry of the Earl of Rochester, Baudelaire, Apollinaire, etc... Again... in judging it as art... it comes down to how good it is a art. There was a writer, I can't remember who offhand, who stated something to the effect that eroticism in art consists not so much of explicit descriptions and graphic displays of anatomical details... but rather of the sense of the artist having made love well through his or her chosen materials. In other words... the paint is caressed and cajoled... or the very choice of words evoke a sensuality of language. When it comes to sexuality in literature I immediately think of Verlaine. Verlaine composed some of the most delicate... limpid... sensual poems that evoke a romance and an eroticism like the most exquisite melody by Bach or Mozart or a marvelous nude by Watteau. He also wrote some grossly explicit erotic poems. The key word here is "gross". Most of these lack any real sensuality... any sense of fantasy... any romance. They lack everything that Verlaine is best at. The painter Lucian Freud, on the other hand, is a master at creating some of the most powerful nudes today. In many cases these are "in your face" nudes with no idealizations and no avoidance of the sexual realities of the human body (not surprising for Sigmund's grandson). Again... I find that I am not one to ever suggest what an artist SHOULD or SHOULD NOT do. What produces great art for one may lead to garbage by another. Blatant sexuality... graphic violence... death... rape... injustice... these are all themes that have produced masterpieces of art. I would never suggest that virtually any theme is taboo. I only concern myself to whether it was explored in a manner that was successful artistically... and if a given theme disturbed me... I would simply avoid those works of art and literature that dealt with it.

I have finally admitted to myself after reading Henry Miller's Tropic of Cancer that I'm a literary prude. :p I don't consider myself to be a prude in everyday life or in personal conversation but when I'm reading, I don't want to read graphic sex scenes. I don't mind sex, I just don't like the really graphic descriptions of it or really course, rude language. It seems like it's just appealing to the lowest common denominator, like it's an easy way to shock without having to put any real thought into it. It's almost as if the language and subject matter are doing the evoking, not ideas or real emotion...but then again, I'm just a literary prude and not the edgy, modern, hip girl I like to think myself as. :D

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Originally Posted by Kent Edwins

I'm glad that sex isn't such a Taboo now- imagine how much better Tennyson's Arthurian stuff would have been with a few raunchy scenes.

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Ummm sorry what?! Good literature shouldnt need the bells and whistles of graphic sex scenes to be great!
:nod:

No, but literature that is centered around lust, temptation, and most of all tragic adultery usually is helped by a sex scene or two. Kinda hard to describe an adulterous without actually showing any of the things involved in causing her to succumb.

This is an interesting topic, because we spent alot of time talking about it in my writers' craft class last year. Whether or not you enjoy reading a sex scene, or care at all, authors often put them there for a reason. How do you feel about novels that are banned from schools for sex scenes? An example is Snow Falling on Cedars, which was banned in my school board because of two sex scenes, particular the one between minors. The scene, however, is crucial to the plot, which is otherwise of a reasonable content to be taught in a school.

I suppose the question becomes whether or not reading such a scene is acceptable for high school students.

Thoughts?

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An example is Snow Falling on Cedars, which was banned in my school board because of two sex scenes, particular the one between minors. The scene, however, is crucial to the plot, which is otherwise of a reasonable content to be taught in a school.

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I think this scene would be crucial for minors because ::shock:: minors have sex with each other all the time. Go figure the logic of the school system. Let's ban something that for content that is otherwise important, because if minors read the content they will begin to do something they are already doing.

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Originally Posted by Kent Edwins

No, but literature that is centered around lust, temptation, and most of all tragic adultery usually is helped by a sex scene or two. Kinda hard to describe an adulterous without actually showing any of the things involved in causing her to succumb.

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I don't remember any sex scenes in The Scarlet Letter....:p


Not too long ago I read two books set in the Italien Renaissance: The Birth of Venus by Sarah Dunant and The Agony and the Ecstasy by Irving Stone. Both included one if not multiple sex scenes. In The Birth of Venus, the sex scene(s) were extremely graphic episodes that spanned over several pages. Alternatively, the sex scene(s) in The Agony and the Ecstasy were very subtle and brief, taking up a single paragraph. Guess which one I preferred? The Agony and the Ecstasy. Perhaps this is an unfair comparison, but it is still makes you wonder whether such graphic sex scenes are necessary. I believe they are only there to appeal.

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Originally Posted by Dori

Perhaps this is an unfair comparison, but it is still makes you wonder whether such graphic sex scenes are necessary. I believe they are only there to appeal.

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That appeal might have been the author's intention, though! Every author wants to invoke a specific response in the reader. That's the point of writing. I your first example, perhaps the author thought that the feelings invoked by reading the scene are crucial to a deeper understanding of the text. Your second example with the shorter sex scene may have been shorter because the author did not feel it was necessary for the reader to have an intimate knowledge of the scene for the text to mean as much.

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Originally Posted by *Classic*Charm*

That appeal might have been the author's intention, though! Every author wants to invoke a specific response in the reader. That's the point of writing. I your first example, perhaps the author thought that the feelings invoked by reading the scene are crucial to a deeper understanding of the text. Your second example with the shorter sex scene may have been shorter because the author did not feel it was necessary for the reader to have an intimate knowledge of the scene for the text to mean as much.

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Perhaps, but I think some things are better left unsaid. ;)

Personally, what I found interesting was that the sex scenes were much less graphic in The Agony and the Ecstasy and that book was from a male's perspective while The Birth of Venus, which included very graphic sex scenes, was from a female's perspective. This makes me wonder; are graphic sex scenes crucial in a biographical novel of a female and not so crucial in that of a male (mind you, both novels were set in the same period of time and included many of the same characters)? This might be absurd, but it is still interesting nonetheless.

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Originally Posted by Dori

I don't remember any sex scenes in The Scarlet Letter....:p


Not too long ago I read two books set in the Italien Renaissance: The Birth of Venus by Sarah Dunant and The Agony and the Ecstasy by Irving Stone. Both included one if not multiple sex scenes. In The Birth of Venus, the sex scene(s) were extremely graphic episodes that spanned over several pages. Alternatively, the sex scene(s) in The Agony and the Ecstasy were very subtle and brief, taking up a single paragraph. Guess which one I preferred? The Agony and the Ecstasy.

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I prefer the much more subtle sex scenes as well. I have a very active imagination, I don't need people to describe it in graphic detail in order to figure out what's going on. :lol: For me, the graphic detail actually takes away from the emotional impact but then again, that's just me. And that's the case in all aspects of my life, I always choose to muddle through and piece things together on my own instead of sitting there, passive while someone explains it to me.

But then, there are Diana Gabaldon sex scenes that are both graphic and vague at the same time. :p I don't know how she does it but she has a way of writing these scenes where you know something really dirty is going on but you can't quite work out the logistics. I would find myself often thinking, "Hey, wait a minute, if her leg is there and his hands are there, how the heck is her head there?!". :lol: :lol: ....but that's neither here nor there, sorry. :blush:

I can't say that I've any issue with graphic sex scenes in anything that I read, but it needs to further the plot. Sex in a story just for the sake of being there is a waste of energy to read, and I'm certain it may have been so for the author to write. I'm not sure why the fixation, but I think it has something to do with an attemp to update the view on reading. To my regret, modern books are far more likely to be read than some of the older classics. Perhaps this is publishers way of shocking people into reading more since many people (Americans at least) do not read for pleasure.

Some sex scenes are vital to the plot of the book. And I get what some of you are saying about simply being suggestive. But, as a writer, if I am trying to get a point across, being suggestive just might not cut it. You could always say "If you were good enough, it would cut it" but maybe that isn't the case. Maybe the writer is trying to shock you, or to make you feel uncomfortable in order to convey a message that they want to within the work. For example, if a book has something like a taboo sex scene in it, the writer knows that you will be uncomfortable reading it (say something terrible like rape for example) it is a way to reach out and grab someone and make them feel the lust, or discomfort, or any other feelings that go along with sex. If it is gratuitous then that is unnecessary, but it would be a shame not to have it in a story where it belongs, it would leave so much intimacy or discomfort out.

I find myself wondering... is this "prudery" or dislike of graphic sex limited solely to sexuality... or does it apply to graphic violence as well? If so, what do you make of The Iliad and The Odyssey, The Aeneid... or more recently... Cormac McCarthy?

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

I find myself wondering... is this "prudery" or dislike of graphic sex limited solely to sexuality... or does it apply to graphic violence as well? If so, what do you make of The Iliad and The Odyssey, The Aeneid... or more recently... Cormac McCarthy?

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Hmm, that's a good question. I didn't have a problem with the Aeneid. But now, I'm trying to think of other violent books that I've read because I've never read Cormac McCarthy. I've read a bit of Dean Koontz, and I guess it depends on how the violence is portrayed. I didn't like The Corner of His Eye because you saw too much of the bad guy's perspective. But I loved By the Light of the Moon, though it did have it's share of violence.

I find detailed descriptions of fights even more boring than detailed descriptions of sexual activity. My imagination is good enough that I can imagine the details, so a couple of well written sentences are enough to tell me what the couple might be doing.

Apparently there are many people who are not so imaginative, because the whole porn industry aims at those people, and I understand that industry is doing well.

On the other hand, nearly all of human ex[ression is about survival and reproduction.

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

I find myself wondering... is this "prudery" or dislike of graphic sex limited solely to sexuality... or does it apply to graphic violence as well? If so, what do you make of The Iliad and The Odyssey, The Aeneid... or more recently... Cormac McCarthy?

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I feel the same way about graphic violence that I do about graphic sexual descriptions, less is more. It's not just violence that bothers me, The Odyssey wasn't too bad, severed limbs I can deal with, it's quick, it's simple...for the most part. What I have problems with is something like The Painted Bird by Jerzy Kosinski because that was just unrelentingly graphic. It's one thing to say, "He fell in a hole and was eaten alive by rats", that's bad but I can handle that, what I don't like is when that process is written down in mind-numbing, stomach churning detail so you feel every bite, you see every wound and hear every cry. That I don't want to read.

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Originally Posted by Dori

Perhaps, but I think some things are better left unsaid. ;)

Personally, what I found interesting was that the sex scenes were much less graphic in The Agony and the Ecstasy and that book was from a male's perspective while The Birth of Venus, which included very graphic sex scenes, was from a female's perspective.

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Oh, no, The Birth of Venus is on my to be read pile and I'm the one who got this whole thing started.

What is a good way to "preview" a book if one would like to know details of the content regarding sex, language, and violence. We have a rating system for movies, but not for books. Do you think the industry needs to "rate" the books or at least state what type of content is in them? I'm not sure myself, what do you think?

In some way I have long been "fascinated" (perhaps not the best word for it... perplexed?:confused:) by the fact that we (especially in America) can accept graphic violence on a day to day basis in film and television... we don't question the glut of murders... drive by shootings, knifings... to say nothing of the more creative and grossly graphic killings and tortures in films like Saw... and even if we don't find such things entertaining ourselves, we have no problem with the fact that others appreciate them. But sex? A murder... shooting or stabbing or even various graphic decapitations or other mutilations raises hardly the least eyebrow of the television censors... but perish the thought of a bare a** or breast... to say nothing of full frontal nudity. The vast history of art is laden with images of nudity and sexuality... but I cannot show the least of these to my students... but there is no problem with most scenes of killings, battles, death, etc... As a visual artist I have long been "fascinated/perplexed" by the fact that nudity and sexuality (which are a normal part of the human experience) are often seen as more disturbing or discomforting than violence... which we imagine as aberrant... abnormal... :confused: :confused:

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

...even if we don't find such things entertaining ourselves, we have no problem with the fact that others appreciate them. But sex? A murder... shooting or stabbing or even various graphic decapitations or other mutilations raises hardly the least eyebrow of the television censors... but perish the thought of a bare a** or breast... to say nothing of full frontal nudity. The vast history of art is laden with images of nudity and sexuality... but I cannot show the least of these to my students...

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Right on Luke!!! And golly-gee-dad if we're seen bare a** from our bedroom window for a second by some ungodly passerby! Repent!

And schools are the most repressed of them all. Oh we must protect the children! Meanwhile dad's out balling his assistant while mom's home online flirting with his best friend. Oh but keep the dirty pictures away from Tommy, yass yass! :lol:

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Originally Posted by n_maw

I
I enjoy reading a lot of contemporary literature, but it seems that authors and readers alike are dealing with a lot more sex! Right when I'm getting into a really great story with really great writing, I'm confronted with a very graphic sex scene. What would have been outrage 50 years ago is accepted and normal now. I just don’t enjoy reading what I would consider to be very sexually explicit material.

I'd like to know what your opinions are!

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Interesting thought indeed as a matter of fact and of course great pieces can come without sexually explicit materials too.

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Originally Posted by n_maw

Do you think the industry needs to "rate" the books or at least state what type of content is in them? I'm not sure myself, what do you think?

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I think it would be terrible to put "Ratings" on literature. Besides, there already kind of is. Ex: Erotica and, of course, Pornography magazines are "Rated" in that they cannot be purchased by those under 18 :lol:
It would be horrible to put actual literature in the same category as pornography

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Originally Posted by n_maw

We have a rating system for movies, but not for books. Do you think the industry needs to "rate" the books or at least state what type of content is in them?

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Good lord I hope not!! All that will do is get more books banned from schools. When it comes to books, there is the maturity level of the reader to be considered, and while restricting the reading of a piece might be beneficial to the average group of people, it will be limiting to others. For example, if a novel were to be rated for people over 18 because of a sex scene, that might be fine for he majority of high school students who may not be mature enough to read it, but it limits others (who most certainly can deal with such a scene) in what they are allowed to read. It's the same with movies- I was allowed to watch films rated R when I was young because my parents knew that I could deal with the violence. Obviously they kept an eye on what I was watching, but if you think about it this way: I just turned 18 a few months ago. If I had actually been limited by the rating system, I wouldn't have ever seen half my favourite movies. Luckily, it is easy to get around movie bans, but I think book bans would ruin high school english curricula.