I am currently philosophizing on why much of Modernist Literature in general and poetry in particular is thick with nihilistic arguments. Could we try to find out WHY?
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I am currently philosophizing on why much of Modernist Literature in general and poetry in particular is thick with nihilistic arguments. Could we try to find out WHY?
I dunno it depends on what you read.
it's extremely difficult to answer this question. although, we may say that after war and the time of poverty people were sick of fillings or just were afraid of them (my humble opinion). Maybe the key would be post modernism? I suggest you to make a (very close) research concerning Polish history during WWII and to read Borowski's "Opowiadania" (no idea if it was translated into English or not) but it's nihilistic and full of cynicism, so may be useful. But - it's difficult to understand and to feel without good and true historical ground.
It's not just modernism that is rift with nihilism, but also 19th century literature.
I'm sure you're aware of nihilistic characters and idealogies in many of Dostoevsky's novels - such as The Brothers Karamazov, Crime and Punishment and the Possessed. But the nihilistic movement in Russian could be considered exactly that: a movement instead of an idealogy.
Personally, I attribute the nihilistic tendencies found in the modernist period to the Great War (WW1). For many writers - better yet, people in general - the war signified the death of innocence, the loss of order.
If I were looking for the source of nihilistic thought in the early 20th century I would definitely look at the great war primarily
Hey mayneverhave
It's not just modernism that is rift with nihilism, but also 19th century literature.(You are very right there, very right)
I'm sure you're aware of nihilistic characters and idealogies in many of Dostoevsky's novels - such as The Brothers Karamazov, Crime and Punishment and the Possessed. But the nihilistic movement in Russian could be considered exactly that: a movement instead of an idealogy. (Great idea but unfortunately i have not read Dostoevsky. Got some stuff on him be it specific or general. I will go on a hunt. Thanks for this idea)
Personally, I attribute the nihilistic tendencies found in the modernist period to the Great War (WW1). For many writers - better yet, people in general - the war signified the death of innocence, the loss of order. (Perfect!)
If I were looking for the source of nihilistic thought in the early 20th century I would definitely look at the great war primarily[/QUOTE]
(Did you think about influences especially from 19th century philosophies [/B]
You have some brave idea. I like it thanks.
[QUOTE=patrycja;497896]it's extremely difficult to answer this question. although, we may say that after war and the time of poverty people were sick of fillings or just were afraid of them (my humble opinion).
I think you got a brave "humble opinion". What do you think about mayneverhave's own opinion.
Would a nihilist movement be in a white collar or blue collar type of thing?
I'd almost recommend Samuel Beckett. But I'm never sure about him. I oscillate between the feeling that he's tearing down our deeply founded assumptions so as to foster some sort of existential empathy for our fellow man and the feeling that he's on a solipsistic nihilistic tear monomaniacally destroying everything we believe about life without really knowing why. There's some nihilism to be found regardless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mayneverhave
That, I think, is part of it. But it was, in my mind, a confluence of many things. The secular ideology beginning to mature and the birth of existentialism which is 90% nihilism have just as much to do with a noticeable increase in nihilistic literature.
everything before wwI is arcadian
everything before wwII is frenetic
After the second world war things had to change.
Nihilism is something that you do not agree and do not accept that it exists. You keep on annihilating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Osky_lit
no body told Nietzsche yet?
That is exactly why the XX century literature have those individuals that could be classificated as nihilists: Dostoievisky and Nietzsche (which means Dostoievisky anyways) influence. They pretty much crrate a model for a kind of "hero" that faces forces (sometimes inner forces) too strong for him and those forces are what determine the social interaction. Since they are "thinkers" of the upcoming moderm crisis, when the XX broke out, and all the crises of modernist ideas, the notion of progress, etc exploded they became models. Part of the XX literature is about losing ideals and trust in future, so that is it...
nihilism eh....
if you want to try something quite interesting... try reading and understanding why so many eastern philosophies, especially buddhism, are so nihilistic, yet at the same time completely non-nihilistic...
this gave western researchers into eastern philosophies headaches for quite some time... and in fact I believe it still does... for they do have similarities.. it is just there is an optimistic outlook in the end for eastern philosophy or religion... (when you look at it in a certain way)
cheers:)
OAD says it is a negative doctrine, the total rejection of current beliefs in religion or morals 2. a form of skepticism that denies all existence
I think this form of thinking has existed for quite some time in literature. Perhaps at least in historic time when people have had leisure time to think- people eventually question what is the purpose of their existence? When they do- I think there are always people who come to the conclusion that what is going on in their current time is somewhat phony...to use the Salinger term.
Determining when it comes into writing and thought is a separate question from when people acknowledge nihilism existing in writing- and thought.
I haven't tried- but I think you could find a string of this type of thought since people have been writing thoughts down-- but also- it wasn't labeled then.
As far as prevalent acknowledgment that nihilism is prevalent in literature- it certainly is tied to WWI...but a widening in available leisure time in thinking is tied historically to industrialization.
I think it is definitely white collar…simply because the upper classes usually have more leisure time- and academics is encouraged in this class. Thinking too much reduces the productivity of the working class- so public education is not considerate of encouraging studies of skepticism- at least traditionally. Nevertheless, teaching people to read gives them access to broader thought and therefore is probably going to increase the amount of thinking people overall- giving rise to broadening followers of any doctrine-right?
Ivan Turgenev actually coined the term 'nihilist' in his 1862 novel Father's and Sons, so I would highly recommend that as well.
In Russia specifically around that time, nihilism was all about removing the institutions of the old patriarchal order, especially serfdom, which the nihilists believed was holding the country back. But the novel was criticised severely by some of the nihilists because they thought that Turgenev's nihilist hero Bazarov was a bad reflection on their ideas (more specifically that he'd suggested a lack of them!), and that he'd damaged their cause for Russia's progress. To Turgenev negation was more about removing the old to make way for progress, rather than negation for it's own sake.
It's an excellent book about these ideas and is also beautifully written. His writing is very simple and elegant in comparison to some of the other Russian authors.
The first nihilist in western literature, as far as me, and Harold Bloom know, is Iago.
If you're "philosophizing" on "Modern Literature in general" being "thick with nihilistic arguments", I'd like you to specify what exactly you mean, and where these alleged arguments are. Then maybe we can have a sound discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Osky_lit
I read some Russian books, Turgenev whose books are Nihilism based.