The True Satan?

It is my belief that Satan has a reason. I cannot prove what is scriptural, but by paying attention to the descriptions of the fiery red dragon mentioned in Revelations, "who accuses us day and night before our God" one is too quickly reminded of the Job. It seems very frightening to me and yet profoundly comforting in a way, the implications of Job. First off, I realize mentioning that comfort is not exactly an ideal word association with Job. But, the sorrows of Job led by 'The Watcher of Men' is not merely a display, but to the purpose of, that after Job triumph of suffering, no evil can touch him. I myself have not suffered much in my own life, and have not been just always, but I often think about righteousness, and it is to this end that I would say definitively that Job is the most intense and profound writing of religious text that I have ever come across. If this 'Watcher of Men' is Satan, then he himself admits the afflictions are for the purpose of becoming free of evil. But remember God for 'Both the deceived and the deceiver are His'.

I am in the process of studying Job. I might add more information are thoughts to this thread.

This reminds me of Weston in "Perelandra..." Satan is evil in and of himself. If his actions work to the greater benefit of God and man, then that is only because God turns all to good in the end. He desires evil-- he is not a driving force to good, he really wants us to be evil. But, because God's will is inexorable, even his evil serves good.

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Originally Posted by weepingforloman

This reminds me of Weston in "Perelandra..." Satan is evil in and of himself. If his actions work to the greater benefit of God and man, then that is only because God turns all to good in the end. He desires evil-- he is not a driving force to good, he really wants us to be evil. But, because God's will is inexorable, even his evil serves good.

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Then why did the 'Watcher of Men' say, "After the six sorrows, with the seventh, no evil can touch him."?

Please note that any off-topic posts will be deleted.

I perceive Satan as science fiction. That is on topic.

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Originally Posted by JGL57

I perceive Satan as science fiction. That is on topic.

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How can you have a clue of the depths of such things with just whiffing it away haughtily as you did? I understand you better than you think, I was the most tyrannical atheist imaginable, and still hold many disagreements with the religiously assumed of the evangelical movement in the U.S.A. But I don't judge them or you as I am taught not to. I can tell you're clever, perhaps you should not be stepping in the Religious arena, if you are just going to trodden it under foot.

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Originally Posted by JGL57

I perceive Satan as science fiction. That is on topic.

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I perceive him as that as well. Still on topic.

There are things mentioned in Job, of such a profound pain and fear of Creator, that only through seeking death more than the finest treasure, can be unlocked the secret things of wisdom.

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Originally Posted by JGL57

I perceive Satan as science fiction. That is on topic.

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On topic and irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by hyperborean

I perceive him as that as well. Still on topic.

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Cf. 1 inch above.

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Originally Posted by linz

How can you have a clue of the depths of such things with just whiffing it away haughtily as you did? I understand you better than you think, I was the most tyrannical atheist imaginable, and still hold many disagreements with the religiously assumed of the evangelical movement in the U.S.A. But I don't judge them or you as I am taught not to. I can tell you're clever, perhaps you should not be stepping in the Religious arena, if you are just going to trodden it under foot.

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Well said.

Job is a magnificently troubling book - one with tremendously important meditations on suffering, evil, good, God, the Devil.

At the end of the 28th chapter an answer comes like this, "Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom, and to depart from evil is understanding."

I have spotted the use of 'to and fro' in reference to the movement of a leaf by the wind, and in this fabulous passage, "He breaks open a shaft away from people; in places forgotten by feet they hang far away from men; they swing to and fro." When The Lord asks Satan where he came from, Satan replies "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it."

Very Interesting.

You perceive him as science-fiction! Maybe we should rest our case for his/its existence. Science-fiction has had a history of being fact before too long.

A late friend of mine used to describe Satan as a dog on Christ's long leash. It was an image that I found difficult to accept but my friend was a man given to the striking and unsettling image. A man who'd cheated death at sea more than once and had risen by self education to have a great turn of phrase in his native Gaelic when discussing these important matters.

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Originally Posted by linz

Then why did the 'Watcher of Men' say, "After the six sorrows, with the seventh, no evil can touch him."?

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God's commands are authoratative-- He can restrain Satan, and did so.

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Originally Posted by weepingforloman

God's commands are authoratative-- He can restrain Satan, and did so.

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I don't think he has restained him quite yet, after all, in those days he will be cast to earth.

If God could not restrain Him, why did He appear before God and have to attain permission to torment Job?

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Originally Posted by weepingforloman

If God could not restrain Him, why did He appear before God and have to attain permission to torment Job?

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Why did God have to ask him who he was?

He asked Satan WHERE he had been. Where. Not who.

You're right, Sorry. But look close at my post above analyzing the 'to and fro' subject and tell me what you think. It is in this same thread.

I wish to modify my previous post.

Satan is bad science fiction.

I finished Job, for some reason I thought it would be much longer. None-the-less, what is says is unmatched. The imagery of it is the most vivid possible. As all of us know, righteous thought this day and age, isn't limited to the religious. But in those days, while all shared without modern understandings, still these words ring forth. That fortunate people given the circumstances of luck, have truly fallen, if they contain little conscience of concern of those endless builders of civilizations builders. And those fortunate but who haven't fallen, will be made to build there own sanctuary, through sweat and blood, but come out unbound by anything. And to the one who leads us into tribulation, by paths forgotten by men, shall ultimate not make us forget goodness in the end.

In Job, Satan describes himself as "Walking to and fro on earth.", and later in the book we come across a passage describing an action by God, "He breaks open a shaft away from people; in places forgotten by feet they hang far away from men; they swing to and fro." The words to and fro appear in both.

I've done some small and general studies of Carl Jung and some of the basic concepts of his analytical psychology. 'The Ego' is the conscience self, and 'The Persona' is a mask built, learned beginning in childhood to display or correct society face. It is how you communicate in the world. Children learn it by being punished in school and taught by parents, and eventually it is simply who we are socially. 'The Shadow' is all these repressed things unaccepted by society that we store in the unconscious which are only utilize in private. Jung theorized that 'The Shadow' sometimes reveals itself in a dream as an enemy and is similarly menacing. Sometimes it can appear as the enemy of your particular nation, such that if you were an American your 'Shadow' might appear as a Islamic Terrorist. Another example is a junkie's 'Shadow' being an accusing police officer. 'The Moral Complex' also imposes restrictions on our 'Ego' and 'Persona' and is demonized in 'The Shadow'.

Maybe this has actual implications on God's breaking open a shaft away from people and places forgotten by feet i. e. 'The Shadow' literally being Satan. In other words our sins and evils are in us all to an extent, therefore hypocrisy is inevitable. And the 'Shadows' was menace in dreams, but become something menacing to our very right to life and needs to be conquered to enter heaven.

If you still do not understand than maybe this will help; In the Holocaust, Hitler convinced many German's rather successfully that 'The Shadow' was Jewish people.

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Originally Posted by linz

In Job, Satan describes himself as "Walking to and fro on earth.", and later in the book we come across a passage describing an action by God, "He breaks open a shaft away from people; in places forgotten by feet they hang far away from men; they swing to and fro." The words to and fro appear in both.

I've done some small and general studies of Carl Jung and some of the basic concepts of his analytical psychology. 'The Ego' is the conscience self, and 'The Persona' is a mask built, learned beginning in childhood to display or correct society face. It is how you communicate in the world. Children learn it by being punished in school and taught by parents, and eventually it is simply who we are socially. 'The Shadow' is all these repressed things unaccepted by society that we store in the unconscious which are only utilize in private. Jung theorized that 'The Shadow' sometimes reveals itself in a dream as an enemy and is similarly menacing. Sometimes it can appear as the enemy of your particular nation, such that if you were an American your 'Shadow' might appear as a Islamic Terrorist. Another example is a junkie's 'Shadow' being an accusing police officer. 'The Moral Complex' also imposes restrictions on our 'Ego' and 'Persona' and is demonized in 'The Shadow'.

Maybe this has actual implications on God's breaking open a shaft away from people and places forgotten by feet i. e. 'The Shadow' literally being Satan. In other words our sins and evils are in us all to an extent, therefore hypocrisy is inevitable. And the 'Shadows' was menace in dreams, but become something menacing to our very right to life and needs to be conquered to enter heaven.

If you still do not understand than maybe this will help; In the Holocaust, Hitler convinced many German's rather successfully that 'The Shadow' was Jewish people.

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Well, I would agree that in attempting to understand the concepts of Lucifer and Satan, the meaning of the story of Job, and similar questions that the popular dogfight of the dogmatically religious with their "God said it, I believe it, that settles it." vs. the majority of atheists who response with something like "That's a load of superstition nonsense - why don't you rubes get a clue?" is not going to get us all anywhere except to eventually take us back to the Australopithecus days of setting disputes with sticks and rocks.

I think we need to take it to a higher intellectual level. The use of the psychoanalysis method by Jung, Freud, Adler, and the general scientific approach to understanding exemplified by comparative mythologist Joseph Campbell can actually shed real light on these issues, obviating the need for sheer belief in the unbelievable and/or questioning of someone's level of intelligence or saneness.

I had one teacher in my Religious Education class (she emotionally scarred me btw), say that everything that distracts us from God is Satan. Intense!!

And probably incorrect. We distract ourselves fairly easily.

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Originally Posted by weepingforloman

And probably incorrect. We distract ourselves fairly easily.

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I totally agree...she really freaked me out. Didn't like me much cause I wore a Bob Marley shirt and listened to Led Zeppelin.

I don't really know what to say...is he like God, everywhere around us, or only in the bad stuff?

Satan, from scriptural clues, appears to be more finite in his scope than God. He mentions walking "to and fro" on the earth in the book of Job, and Paul says he is "like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour."

Who could hate Bob Marley?!?

I KNOW! She was convinced I was a pot head...I've never done drugs in my life!

I heard this Baptist Minister say that Satan is in all of us, just waiting to get out and do his dirty deeds...done dirt cheap.:D

Good AC/DC reference. I don't smoke pot either, and I LOVE Marley. My brother got to see the Wailers last year, and I was totally jealous.

Ah, poor misguided fire'n'brimstone. Glad I'm not a Southern Baptist!

OH man! That would have been really cool!

Back to the subject, before this gets shutdown!

In Job then, does it mean that Satan is just waiting for the right time?

The Book of Job also records Satan going before God to ask permission to torture Job. Even the devil is not outside God's sovereignty (for those who can tell, yes, I happen to be a Calvinist).

Satan could come up before God because he was a fallen archangel, cast out of heaven for fomenting war. Man doesn't need all that much help to do evil, mankind does fine on their own. "The devil made me do it!" used to be a catch-phrase. The Devil gets blamed for a lot of things he didn't do.

You started with the book of Job. Satan indeed got God's permission to strike at Job. But his so-called friends did a good job of tormenting the poor man on their own, did they not? Job began to wish he had never been born, not from what he was going through, but because his friends keep falsely accusing him. He knew he hadn't done anything and it was just a trial. People can be cruel.

Satan is a tempter, not one who forces people to do anything. People will do anything on their own.

Oh, and I don't think he looks like this, either: http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l1...Kane/Devil.gif

I don't think I ever suggested Satan is inexorable. And, yes, we are most certainly disposed to evil ourselves.

let me tell you that there are alot of devils dwell inside everyhuman , as there are alot of them outside humans .
The satan has no place perfectly to stay in but he ordered his assistants to spoil every human's life because he envys them and he bears a grudge against them .

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Originally Posted by Warm-Blooded

let me tell you that there are alot of devils dwell inside everyhuman , as there are alot of them outside humans .
The satan has no place perfectly to stay in but he ordered his assistants to spoil every human's life because he envys them and he bears a grudge against them .

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why do you believe this? who told you this? have you seen it? would you believe something just because someone told it to you? then why not believe those who tell you it is not so?

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Originally Posted by weepingforloman

I don't think I ever suggested Satan is inexorable. And, yes, we are most certainly disposed to evil ourselves.

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In the sense that "inexorable" can mean "relentless", yes, Satan is that. That is shown clearly in the book of Job. When one tactic doesn't work, he seeks permission for another, vowing to make Job curse God to His (God's) face. But man, as AP put it on the now defunt Evolution vs Creation thread, natural has an animal nature. We cannot keep it at bay forever. Think about simple road-rage. Some cuts you off in traffic and you blow your stack. Blame that on Satan or yourself, for a lack of self-control?

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Originally Posted by Pendragon

Think about simple road-rage. Some cuts you off in traffic and you blow your stack. Blame that on Satan or yourself, for a lack of self-control?

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A mixture of all three - the ratios depend upon the makeup of the individual.

Would anyone care of quoting the Bible or any other religious texts in this discussion?
:)
This is a Religious Texts thread, by the way and hence supposed to be a source where we can learn more about religions in the world through the discussion of their sacred texts.

OK. Sub, although I did bring up Job.

Galations 5: [13] For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
[14] For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[15] But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
[16] This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
[17] For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
[18] But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
[19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
[20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
[21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
[24] And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
[25] If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Notice how the flesh is given over to do things that are wrong. Paul states "Flesh." He doesn't strickly say this is the fault of Satan. Of course, Satan is going to take what he can get and work with it. But the nature of the flesh is born into a man or woman.

The spirit gives one a different outlook, even to self-control (temperance), and a Christian is supposed to act diffrently. But how easily our animal nature takes over! Romans Chapter 7.

God Bless

Pen

Matthew 6:34 "Be not therefore anxious for the morrow: for the morrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

Personally I wish this were equally applicable to yesterday... as far back as that reaches, for it is only by attending closely and clear-sightedly to the evils of this day - the psychological, sociological and economic reasons for it - that we may hope to deal with and defeat it.

Satan is a metaphor, a convenient short-hand for the deformities of our hearts caused by human insensitivity, cruelty and injustice.

not sure that this is on topic, but where did satan come from, i mean i know he was gods higest angel...but when did god create him, and did adam and eve or noah come first???
steph

You know, Prince, I believe this would be on topic. Joe Walsh of the Eagles wrote a song called "One Day At a Time" that The Eagles have being preforming at their "Farewell" Tour.

Part of the song goes:

"I finally figured out that I was the problem.
And quit laying the blame on everybody's soulders but mine
It was something I was too blind to see
I got help from something greater than me
And now I'm living my life one day at a time."

Words to live by. If everyone quit blaming everyone but themselves for what's wrong with the world and did their part to fix it, we might get somewhere!

God Bless

Pen

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l1.../PuppyLove.gif