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In April, we will be reading Ethan Frome by Edith Wharton.Quote:
A classic is classic not because it conforms to certain structural rules, or fits certain definitions (of which its author had quite probably never heard). It is classic because of a certain eternal and irrepressible freshness.
Please post your comments and questions here.
Ethan Frome Online Text
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I'm on chapter VIII (p.54 in the Norton edition)
the intro (frame) is a bit dull/confusing but after that the story really holds your attention (well, it holds mine at any rate).
I have read it and the book does seem to keep the attention till the end.
It seemed to me at many places that there is no conversation, as if someone is observing the thoughts and putting it in words. The feelings were mostly unsaid, maybe thats how the author wanted. Oh, and in some very romantic scenes I felt as if I am reading an MB :p :p
I have just started it. Seems interesting, to me. :)
It is definitely interesting :nod: The moment you think that after this scene now surely this (something very predictable) will happen, it just changes and takes a different turn.
What do you think of Zeena? Do you really see her as what Ethan thinks of her, or was he merely reacting?
It is not exactly the type of books, I usually read, but it is very good one. But the end of it confused me a bit. I didn't expected exactly this (I usually predict what is going to happen at the end), but I think this is good after all. Exactly as Madhuri said, the action is just unpredictable :) :) :) Still there is something that confuse me there and I can't explain it clearly. May be the problem is with the jump through the time and the sudden change of the narrator, I don't know. The action seems to be a bit slower than what I am get used to, but the characters descriptions are very full and that gives a wonderful notion for them.
I am up to Chapter 2 - will start that tonight. It strikes me that this book is one of the frame stories as someone else pointed out. I am not sure that is the exact terminology or correct terminology. But what I want to point out is the structure of the story is within the frame of someone telling the story first to the narrator. The author also stated, in the first paragraph, the fact that several versions were told to him, and so I imagine now the story he is now relating to us is really a combination of each. Any thoughts on this?
The interesting part of the story is the mystery and the way Wharton is slowing unraveling the tale. It is a slowpaced book, but it does keep your interest wanting to find out the why and wherefore, and the writing is lovely. It is a little annoying to me that the author sometimes has such long run-on sentences. She seems a bit wordy but then when you go back over them you can see the point she is emphasising. I get lost in those long descriptions, but the graphic images of the bleakness of winter and the countryside reflects well the broken spirit and body of Ethan Frome.
Jumping ahead - when I was in highschool and read this book I recall thinking the ending very strange, but I think now I will have a different perspective on it and see the whole point more clearly.
That's interesting :nod: I hadn't thought it this way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I got a bit confused about the ending.Quote:
Jumping ahead - when I was in highschool and read this book I recall thinking the ending very strange, but I think now I will have a different perspective on it and see the whole point more clearly.
Hi Madhuri,Quote:
Originally Posted by Madhuri
Yes, always look for key words in the descriptive text - usually they will mimic the attitudes or conditons of the characters. The description and atmosphere can set the mood. All good authors use this device. For example: the sun might break through the clouds and then the story might take on a lighter, happier feel. Fine authors don't just write long descriptions for no reason. Always go back and look to the words and you will see much more in them. Also always read between the lines. There is always more that does not meet the eye.
Yes, when I was younger I was totally confused and in the dark about the ending. I don't clearly recall it now so you will have to wait till I am done with my reading of the book, so I can tell you how I feel about it now. Here is where you may have to read between the lines or use your own imagination to fill in the blanks.Quote:
I got a bit confused about the ending.
I'm finished.
in my edition (Norton Critical Edition) there are ".....................................
.................................................. ..........." at the beginning and end of the main part.
do you have those?
they make the transition from the frame to the main story less confusing :)
the ending was very surprising.. I'm not sure how i feel about it...
will talk about it in detail when everyone's read it :)
Sleepywitch, Yes, my book has the same thing - chapters that are not numbered, one preceeding the first chapter and one at the end of the book, is that what you mean by "...................."? So that is the frame - those two chapters. I have some commentary in my book, too, but will read then when I finish the novel.Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyWitch
Well, I am half way through and should finish it soon. I read it before so I know the ending but I am anxious to read it again with a new perspective. The end is a surprise and I have never known just how I feel about it either. We will see this time around.
yep, the frame chapters are not numbered and the first chapter of the main story is chapter I.
and there are dotted lines at the end of the first part of the frame. there's a footnote that says Wharton put those there as a visual signal that the main part is beginning
Ahhh! That's why I was so confuse! I read the book through DailyLit and there were no dotted lines and no footnotes of course. The last one was a bit sad, I began to love footnotes after James Joyce's works - there were so many of them! :lol: :lol: :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyWitch
Oh, I see what you are talking about. My addition is older and just has the blank chapters, to start and finish. I have read other books with that format, so it did not throw me off. I think "Frankenstein" was written that way; I know it was written in a 'frame format' to tell the story, not sure if the first chapter was left un-numbered or un-named.
When are we going to discuss the book and the characters? I would like to start with Ethan's character, since he is the main character in the book, besides the narrator. What do you all think? If we jump ahead to the ending, I think it is too early to do so. We need to take the first couple of chapters and discuss them more extensively.
Finished, not my favorite.
It would be good to do so. But do we count the frame chapter or we start from the moment when Ethan starts narrating? I think it would be better if we start with the frame or left it for the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I've only read the introduction so far, I'm a bit busy at the moment preparing for Easter (my favourite holiday :nod:).
Would your telling us why you didn't like it make details of the plot explicit, papaya ? :)
:bawling: scher It wont let me through the link. Its sayingQuote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
HELP:eek2:Quote:
Nightshade, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:
Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
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Maybe you've been banned.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightshade
yeah, something came up before I could expound further. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Schokokeks
I have to disagree with several members, I thought the plot was predictable and kinda slow.
The interesting part was that everybody in a way got what they wanted. Ethan and Mattie stayed together and Zeena got something to do (I'm choosing to believe her sickness resulted more from her mind then anything else.).
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Originally Posted by Madhuri
The feelings that were mostly unsaid were, I think, in keeping with Ethan's reticent nature. it was the author's way of letting us in to Ethan's world, of making us get to know him and understand him.
i was going to say "that nutter woman who's got nothing wrong with her except she needs her head examined".. but you've put it much more eloquently :)Quote:
Originally Posted by papayahed
i don't think the plot is predictable...
first, i thought Ethans smash up was an accident.
then towards the end, I thought they'd die, which is obviously nonsense seeing as the narrator meets Ethan later.... :idea: but i thought Mattie would die
I liked the ending! Otherwise, it would have made a boring read.
I'm probably going to start reading this weekend. Sorry I'm behind. Hope people will still discuss this with me.
Yes, I think so too. I think that if it wasn't the confusing ending the book would be average and quite common as plot line. I thought firstly they both are going to die, I even didn't thought that it's impossible because of the beginning of the book. After that I thought that Mattie will die, but I was wrong again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pensive
I have some problems with understanding Zeena character, somehow she seems a bit unreal to me, though i am sure there are people like her. I think there is something deeper in her, I think the author doesn't show everything about her. I feel as there are some blank moments in her character, I feel her a bit incomplete.
Alexei, Believe me when I say I knew a woman just like Zeena. It was a very sad case. As with Ethan, the husband was sweet and traped and he gave her everything - he very much catered to her illness. She was delicate and yet she ruled his life in a passive-aggressive manor. I think I read this book in highschool and felt as you do - is Zeena a possible realistic person? But then, later, I did know this family with the very real mother just like Zeena. She even had the sunken thin appearance from her imagined illnesses. She doted on illness, ate poorly, and complained endlessly. Her family tried to help her, but they could not. She, also, doted on other people's illnesses and problems, especially deaths and cancer. She finally committed suicide by overdose. Her daughter said she just did not want to live anymore. Obviously the woman suffered greatly from a mental disorder. Hypochondria is a real certifiable mental illness. It may seem that Zeena is purely evil, but actually she is quite pathetic and selfish. In those days, mental illness and the recognition of it was quite a unheard of subject. The whole idea was still in the closet. People did not talk about that, unless they just called a person 'mad' or 'insane'. So, I think the things we don't see about Zeena, we cannot see in this text, only imagine. She lives in a way we cannot fully relate to, in a world all to herself. She is really a very sad creature. Her illness makes her selfish and wanting of attention and making all people around her quite miserable. It is a very sad case. How can Ethan leave such a needy person? He has reasoned that out in his mind. He is too good a person to do so. Actually, Alexei, you are very sensitive - in mentally ill people there actually are "blank moments" in their character or mind. I know because I have studied about this, having a relative with a mental condition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexei
I think the ending of this story is great and very ironic, and definitely makes the book valid and a classic! I wonder if we should discuss the ending blatantly or specifically yet, when people on this thread are still reading the book. I think we need to repect that. If they know the ending now, it may spoil the book for them. I have not finished reading it, myself, but I do know the ending, having read the book before. I know Virgil has not read it and he will want to be surprised at the ending. If possible I don't think we should give away the ending. We could talk about the characters and how we percieve them or take chapter by chapter. We can easily start with the frame chapter.
I read it first time as a full adult and thought it was magnificent, but the 10th graders I taught it to did not get into it. It's a deep and serious work and I suppose requires a serious reader.
byquist - this is absolutely true, in my opinion. I also read it when young and did not really 'get it' or 'get into it'. Now I think the novel is wonderful and the end incredible. It does require a serious reader to understand the novel.Quote:
Originally Posted by byquist
I thought on the frame chapter and I was quite amazed how different it is as atmosphere of the other part of the book. Firstly I thought it is slower, but actually the more impressing difference is the feeling of mystery. In the beginning of the book there is some idea that everything round Ethan's life is like taboo - no one speak of it (with this introduction I have expected something different from such kind of love story ;) ) and after that when Ethan becomes the narrator the hole veil of mystery is just gone, everything become clear and almost everything seems visible (at least the facts needed for the progress of plot line).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexei
The narrator does not change, from start to finish it is always the engineer on work assignment who tells the story. At the end of the introductory chapter he states: It was that night that I found the clue to Ethan Frome, and began to put together this vision of his story... (then immediately followed by chapter One).
It is just that in the introductory chapter the narrator is more involved, he is part of the scene, there is first person narration. By contrast, from chapters One to Nine, the same narrator is completely detached; he tells Ethan Frome's story as he imagines the way it would have transpired and at the same time tries to tell it from Ethan's point of view.
Janine, That Hamlet quote is interesting and I need to study it further. Lit. critics make a great deal about Conrad's mention of a nutshell in a diff. way in "Heart of Darkness." C's emphasis is not on the msg. from within, but the glow of the moonlight on the haze that is outside the nut. Meaning is derived from "outside" the nut, not inside. I wonder now if Conrad was creatively doing a take-off or departure from that Hamlet quote. Byquist
Oh, yes, of course!!! I am such an idiot! :blush: :blush: :blush: You are completely right. After all, almost th whole book is in 3d person, and I have seen this! Of course!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by bouquin
byquist, well in the film version, when Hamlet recites this line, it always gets to me. I think - wow that is me! Some may think "what - a nut?":lol: Truly though I am happy in my own little/huge world of "infinite space" - everything is in the perception of life.Quote:
Originally Posted by byquist
You bring up a very interesting point and analogy to "Heart of Darkness". Unfortunately I have not read the book, but now it interests me, and lately I have been hearing a lot about it. If Conrad is seeing the glow on the outside of the nut, then I would think it a 'departure'. Well, not unusual that he might have thought about the Shakespeare words, since all authors draw from knowledge of other authors, even subconsciously. Perhaps he wished to expand on the nutshell image and meaning or deviate and express his own perception. I personally see the shell as a 'confinement' that really is an 'expansion' - of mind and spirit. Some may say readers are in a world of their own and retreat from the real world, or dreamers, or visionaries. But perhaps their world is more 'real' than the 'physical' world which most would consider "real". This would be my understanding on the Shakespeare quote. What do you think? Certainly it is an interesting connection to the Conrad story. I will have to venture further into it.
bouquin, this is good and actually kicks off the book discussion very well, I think. It is interesting to note how the tone changes from introduction to core body of the book. It changed so much that Alexei even perceived that now Ethan was telling his own story. You are correct in that the narrator, too, takes on a different sort of role - less prominent and mades the story seem to be coming from Ethan's own persception or mind. I find this devise quite brilliant on Wharton's part. It does help to build suspense in a slowpaced sort of quiet way.Quote:
Originally Posted by bouquin
Quote:
Originally Posted by papayahed
I think Zeena was merely a hypochondriac; otherwise, if she were really seriously ill she would already have died long ago trying to take care of Mattie and Ethan. At the end of the story she seemed to be the "healthiest" of them all. One could almost imagine her taking a kind of perverse delight in Mattie and Ethan's tragic situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bouquin
I wonder if she knew there was something between Mattie and Ethan? It seem like not much escaped her.
bouquin, Oh, Yes, I agree. I think basically Zeena was a hypochondriac and she was actually quite ill mentally, but physically she probably played up any ach or pain and took all kinds of medication - perhaps just making herself sick and weak in the process. She definitely magnified anything she wanted to like the new doctor's report or advice. We never really know exactly what that doctor told her - only what she wanted us to believe was true. Good point - if seriously ill she would have died by now, shame she didn't. Of course we should not forget that in her mentally ill state she is a self-centered, pathetic person. And how did taking care of Ethan's parents make her ill? She, artfully, throws that one up in Ethan's face, somewhere towards the end of the book. She knew how to hit him at a low point and to inflict a guilt trip on him as well. Good point - ironically, at the end of the novel she does appear to be the healtiest of all the characters and I do think she would delight in the tragedy of Mattie and Ethan's situation. It would put her on top and the winner in the end, at least in her eyes.Quote:
Originally Posted by bouquin
Papayahead, To your question:
I do think that Zeena is aware of Mattie and Ethan's feeling for each other, from the beginning. Yes, of course when she goes away for the night and leaves them alone in the house, she tries to set them up so she can catch them at something indescent or irregular. She is very coniving, don't you think? If she catches them in anything out of the ordinary, such as the breaking of the pickle dish, and the reason the pickle dish was even used for dinner to begin with, she has a great excuse or reason to send Mattie away for good. It is some bit of evidence to back up her vague feelings and be justified as a wife to rid herself of this girl, who she now sees as a threat to her marriage. Of course we all know it is not much of a marriage, but to Zeena it is all she really has. Any breakup would undermine her own security. Zeena is a very controlling person or at least tries to be.Quote:
I wonder if she knew there was something between Mattie and Ethan? It seem like not much escaped her.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I find Zeena very controlling indeed. And Ethan's weakness is that he succumbs to the control wielded by the two women in his life. Firstly, he cannot bring himself to defy the moral and social control that Zeena has over him through their being married; and secondly, he is just so wishy-washy about his plans to run off with Mattie and it is she who decides what they should do to get out of their seemingly hopeless predicament. Ethan just goes along with what the women want.
I'm through chapter seven, so almost finished. But I expect a big climax coming. I'm really enjoying this work. I'm finding a well crafted novel. It's such a short, fast, and enjoyable read i think I'll re-read it again right after. I'll hold my thoughts until I'm through it once.
bouquin, I do think Ethan gets manipulated by both women, but mostly Zeena. I think your explanation of the ending is a little too pat or perfect. I recall an entire passage when Ethan carefully goes over all the options he has in his mind to elope with Matty and go West. In the final analysis the whole idea is really quite hopeless. I agree in retrospect, that that would probably have been the better option, but at the time Ethan felt totally trapped in all ways: emotionally, financially, and ultimately in his duty to his wife in not leaving her destitude. I will try to find the passages online and copy to post those paragraphs, in which he reasons all of it out, finally coming to the conclusion there is no way out for him. He is dedicated to both women and that is why he does go along with Matty. Of course, that decision is spontaneous, maybe as an act of passion, and not well thought out, but it was a 'option' as to how to escape their predictament.Quote:
Originally Posted by bouquin
Virgil, well put, describing this book! I thought you would like it. It is a 'well crafted novel'. The theme of the book sort of reminds me of D.H.Lawrence's short stories. EF is short and easy to read. I think I read it now 3 times. A second reading will be beneficial to you. I think it is a beautifully written novel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I'm done with it, too, and liked it very much :nod:. Brevity is the soul of wit :D.
Quote:
Originally Posted by papaya
I agree with papaya and the hypochondriac idea, but I would not call Zeena mentally ill. But this of course depends on whether one uses that expression in a pathological sense or merely to say she was behaving excentrically.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I had the impression that she was well aware of all that was happening around her and used her alleged weakness / frailty to pull the threads and to tie Ethan to her, knowing about his sense of duty. I do not think a mentally ill person (pathological), depending on the degree, of course, would be that contriving.
I agree, that was quite a hit :). Ethan confesses at some point that after his mother had died and Zeena was about to leave again, he panicked with the idea to be alone in the house and, out of that fear, proposed to her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Contrary to Zeena, who always has her will, Ethan is presented being such a wimp :D.
Hi, Schokokeks,Quote:
Originally Posted by Schokokeks
Well, I live with a person with bipolar disorder and believe me they can be very aware, very manipulative, very contriving, and very mean (at times) as well. Sly is a good way of putting their behavior, also, and they are keen and smart, as well. If not on the right medication, there behavior would be even more pronounced and evident. There are many degrees of mental illness and that is only one disorder that I mentioned. I knew a woman who was a true hypochondriatic and her family loved her but they suffered greatly. She was very contriving and manipulative. Sadly enough she took an overdose and died one day alone. They are very pathetic people.
I hate hearing people call Ethan a whimp. I don't see it that way. He was financially and emotionally trapped. He knew no other thing, but taking care of people. He was disfunctional as all the characters are in this story, but he was hardly a whimp. A whimp could not provide for three people and Ethan worked hard to do so. He was a certain quiet personality and a dreamer, but not a whimp in my definition of the word.Quote:
I agree, that was quite a hit :). Ethan confesses at some point that after his mother had died and Zeena was about to leave again, he panicked with the idea to be alone in the house and, out of that fear, proposed to her.
Contrary to Zeena, who always has her will, Ethan is presented being such a wimp :D.