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Ah, the new play has started!! I'll have to get ging with it. Hope others join.
Is that a new hip expression you youngsters use these days?? Or is it something from your days in Brooklyn, Virgil?Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
;)
:lol: :lol: No, just my very poor typing skills. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
Alll Right, I dig this one. Loved the movie as well.
I believe the phrase is gettin' jiggy with it. When referring to Shakespeare specifically, it's called gettin' jiggy with Willy.
Mixed feelings, really. I certainly think it's pretty cool how most of the tragic (if they really may be called so) events of the rest of the play seem to stem from this act. Certainly one feels a good deal of the righteous indignation towards old T.A. after the stuff he does and says - particularly with regard to his son. (Is it Mutius? It's been a few months since I read the play.) But I guess he was sort of doing what he had to do to avoid capital punishment. The business with Tamora is pretty absurd, it seems to me. His failure to consider how she must really feel about him after the execution of her son is kind of bizarre... Befitting a soldier, I suppose. But maybe he has just been "steeled" against that kind of parental attachment - he would about have to, considering that he outlives upwards of twenty sons due to the war!
If it is the Hopkins film you refer to, based on the exerpts we watched in class I certainly agree. Interesting ending.Quote:
Originally Posted by papayahed
The blood begins early. Some hundred and forty lines in. Titus is on for all of five minutes and the gore fest begins. Although the the text only has the executioners returning with bloody swords, I like to imagine them each bearing the several pieces of Alarbus' corpse to toss recklessly centre stage. It's a good idea to let the audience in on the kind of play they're in for which is a ridiculous romp through butchery. They should become desensitised as quickly as possible so that the laughter can start. Titus Andronicus is a hilarious tragedy, a roller coaster ride where, if approached correctly, the viewer may be honestly confused as to whether the tears in her eyes are tears of grief or laughter, or where the pain in his stomach could equally be from repetitive tense laughing or a sickening indigestion. Cementing awesome confusion, Titus slays his own son at a moment's provocation. We are introduced to this man and instantly believe him capable of surprising us with virtually any action. Ah, Titus. There is no one quite like you among your brother and sister characters throughout the entire canon of Shakespeare's plays.*
X
*Except perhaps the necrophiliac Tyrant of The Second Maiden's Tragedy, an anonymous play, but a strong contender for Shakespeare's "lost" play Cardenio.
Will you be reading this Xman? I just started last night and skimmed Act I. I need to re-read it to have any worthwhile comment. Hopefully several will be reading this for a good discussion.
Yes Virgil, I will be reading along. On to Act II! :D
X
Well, I'm still on Act I. Some thoughts.
The act that sets in motion the events, the killing of tamora's son, is motivated as a religious sacrifice:
and when Tamora pleads for his life, Titus responds:Quote:
LUCIUS
Give us the proudest prisoner of the Goths,
That we may hew his limbs, and on a pile
Ad manes fratrum sacrifice his flesh,
Before this earthy prison of their bones;
That so the shadows be not unappeased,
Nor we disturb'd with prodigies on earth.
The war, the bitter fighting that has reached this point, the deaths of "our side" requires some ritual killing of "their" side for closure. In a way, the framing of the killing in religious, ritual terms recalls the way Brutus wishes to kill Julius Ceasar in "Julius ceasar."Quote:
TITUS ANDRONICUS
Patient yourself, madam, and pardon me.
These are their brethren, whom you Goths beheld
Alive and dead, and for their brethren slain
Religiously they ask a sacrifice:
To this your son is mark'd, and die he must,
To appease their groaning shadows that are gone.
Another thought. So much of this play seems to revolve around parent's love for their sons. Tamora's pleading:
The Bible says, "an eye for an eye." The vengence in this play says a son for a son.Quote:
TAMORA
Stay, Roman brethren! Gracious conqueror,
Victorious Titus, rue the tears I shed,
A mother's tears in passion for her son:
And if thy sons were ever dear to thee,
O, think my son to be as dear to me!
Sufficeth not that we are brought to Rome,
To beautify thy triumphs and return,
Captive to thee and to thy Roman yoke,
But must my sons be slaughter'd in the streets,
For valiant doings in their country's cause?
O, if to fight for king and commonweal
Were piety in thine, it is in these.
Andronicus, stain not thy tomb with blood:
Wilt thou draw near the nature of the gods?
Draw near them then in being merciful:
Sweet mercy is nobility's true badge:
Thrice noble Titus, spare my first-born son.
A troubling play - one that many scholars see as derivative of Marlowe's ferocity. It lacks Shakespeare's subtle revelation of character - I'd have rather spent more time on Taming! The violence is numbing.
And daughters too, but the opposite is true as well. A moment later Titus slays one of his sons for defying the new Emperor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Ultimately, I think you're right about violence in this play and would go you one step further. It is an act of vengeance one minute and one of mercy the next. These Thracians have a violent culture and are very accustomed to it.
X
I'm sure that's the point. I saw a videotape of one stage production where blood was everywhere, literally spraying on the audience. They draped the terrified front row in plastic before the performance. By Act III they were roaring with approval.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redzeppelin
X
Finally got my copy of Norton Tragedies and will be starting to read the play asap! :)
Finished Act I and I continued to find references to the sacred or religious. Here:
Quote:
LAVINIA
...
O, bless me here with thy victorious hand,
Whose fortunes Rome's best citizens applaud!
Quote:
TITUS ANDRONICUS
...And here in sight of Rome to Saturnine,
King and commander of our commonweal,
The wide world's emperor, do I consecrate
My sword, my chariot and my prisoners;
And interweaved in this victory celebration is a human sacrifice, two marriages, and funerals.Quote:
SATURNINUS
And therefore, lovely Tamora, queen of Goths,
That like the stately Phoebe 'mongst her nymphs
Dost overshine the gallant'st dames of Rome,
If thou be pleased with this my sudden choice,
Behold, I choose thee, Tamora, for my bride,
And will create thee empress of Rome,
Speak, Queen of Goths, dost thou applaud my choice?
And here I swear by all the Roman gods,
Sith priest and holy water are so near
And tapers burn so bright and every thing
In readiness for Hymenaeus stand,
I will not re-salute the streets of Rome,
Or climb my palace, till from forth this place
I lead espoused my bride along with me.
I just reread what I wrote in the other Titus thread - "not sure I could finish"
and then "glad I finished"
We could have avoided this whole mess if titus would have just taken the crown for himself, doesn't that seem odd to anyone else that he refuses???
Shakespeare's tragic heroes always condemn themselves by virtue of their 'tragic flaw'. I wonder if this is it with Titus. Like Lear, it is his duty as the chosen leader to rule. He doesn't want to enflame the nobility of Saturninus and have to deal with all that politices. He's a soldier. He want s to remain a soldier. He shirks the will of the people. Could this be part of his tragic flaw?Quote:
Originally Posted by papayahed
X
Good point, Papaya. What I find lacking in Titus is an understanding of how people relate to each other in a social context. He apparantly has been a warrior for his whole life that when he comes home from war he doesn't seem to understand personal relations. He should take the crown. The people want him to, but I guess he feels that Saturnius would cause trouble and he doesn't know how to pacify him. Or he doesn't know how to relate with Tamora other than by a war sacrifice of her son. Or even his own son who he kills.Quote:
Originally Posted by papayahed
Titus is a man who demonstrates belief in tradition and law. He will not take the throne because it rightfully belongs to the eldest son of the dead king. He will sacrafice Tamora's eldest son because Tradition, indeed religion, calls for it. He will give Lavinia to Saturninus because he commands it, and in Rome, the King is respected, honored, and obeyed. He will kill Mutius for dishonoring him in front of Rome and the new King as well as for disobeying him as Rome is a Patriarchial culture. He is to decide who has Lavinia, not her and not her suitors. Titus has proved himself thus a man of tradition and law. The rest of the play is about the repercussions of his actions and a chain of vengence. It is also about the falling apart of a great nation due to these actions. For this reason the play is very bloody and violent, but I stand firm in the fact that it is no more bloody, violent, or potentially offensive than Hamlet. If you have delicate sesibilities be prepared to have them offended when reading Shakespeare. :lol:
Very insightful point aswelch. Thanks for your conribution.Quote:
Originally Posted by aswelch